Recognition For 'third Sex'

[torito]

Recognition for 'third sex'

...

"This would genuinely guarantee the rights of all people," said Nathee, who said gay groups were optimistic about the charter.

While general public is not educated to the fact that homosexuality has been part of human beings since it can be recorded, that it is part of nature, little guarantee can be given.

A recongition will be one more open door that will help. I have lived in countries of homophobic culture, and I have seen how these people struggles for living a life, in spite of "laws" that protect them of discrimation.

[torito]

of discrimation.

"from discrimination"....apologies

[bina]

if people are interested in the third sex among other cultures then google: berdache, and look for third sex + india as well. also google among native american groups; indonesia ,

as i stated before the adam/eve thing seems to primarily exist among judeo/christian (not sure even about muslem) societies. among many societies there are definate male/female -earth/sky, water/land, sun/moon etc however they usually also have 'special' people/personalities/entities that are representative of both male and female.

interesting here to note that many of the buddha figures and paintings show a sort of androgenous figure that is almost feminine in form... whereas jesus and other western figures never or almost never get androgenous forms (well, jewish law prohibits human representation but there was always arguement about king david etc also)... just to throw some more interesting bits and pieces in to the thread...) not sure how this is relavent but thinking out loud on the keyboard.

black white definitions of things seem to show up more among western religions/cultures/societies. the desire for absolute understanding/definition bad/good etc also. and it seems that many other societies cultures religiouns leave lots of leeway for INBETWEEN, gray areas, changeovers from one thing to another, with variations in between. therefore, the variations are accepted more readily in day to day living .

legal defintions by being legal prefer standard, black /white defintions as they leave less room for manoevering. so thailand essentially has to reconcile one element of their daily lives which survived w/o being 'standardized' until more modern times where they now have to encorporate 'non standard but acceptable ' things into their system. as everyone will point out, thai bearacracy does not work like swiss or british beuracracy. the marriage/registeration or just community recognition of a marriage reflects the transition from what was once community acceptance recognition (and largely oral) to a written, beurocratic, and largely (i think) western way of dealing with things.

so if before the 'third sex' was accepted and was no big deal, now, when having to standardize and legalize, it is sort of forcing the issue and making people take a stand. rather confrontational which is not, or used to not be the thai way. and rather the opposite of the jewish way i must mention as jewish religioun has laws upon laws upon laws and love to argue and confront and discuss and analyze and pick apart and define every tiny bit of anything.

not sure if i managed to be clear in what i was trying to say; would have been easier to speak rather then write.

peace blondie, NOte: correction, among those of us that are 'progressive' we acknowlege that yuval is 'male' even though biologically yuval is still in a mostly womens' physical body. by the religous parties she is an abomination although her (his) parents are religious!!! it is problematic since hebrew language defines male/female for everything. there is no neutral. even a car has a sex.

apologies if post is long...

bina

israel

[bina]

edit button seems to have disappeared, but had a rather funny thought.

back when my youngest daughter was about 6 yrs old, she decided she was a he. and she refused to answer us unless we used the masculine form of speech with her. and she used the masculine form of speech with us. and since her name is unisex she didnt bother to switch names. she pee'd standing up, preferred boys' clothes (red/blue/white, not pink etc which in israel are still gender identifiers on small children). that lasted two months and then one day she decided she was a girl again. and she's a very girly girl too. but still hates pink!!! (although it is the preferred male colour this year in fashion concious guys).

[DirkGently]

BKKROX! People like you crack me up. If mere symbols on a screen can upset you so much, how do you survive in the real world? Get a grip of yourself man.

The word queer is one I have heard around the office and, now this may shock you, was being used by a gentleman's gentleman, or 'queer' if you like.

Your point about Hitler really made me smile. Yes! You are right my use of a single word puts me right up there with a mass murderer.

I couldn't care less who somebody chooses to go home with, but there is still no third sex.

You silly person. (I hope that language is not to harsh)

[mikethevigoman]

BKKROX! People like you crack me up. If mere symbols on a screen can upset you so much, how do you survive in the real world? Get a grip of yourself man.

The word queer is one I have heard around the office and, now this may shock you, was being used by a gentleman's gentleman, or 'queer' if you like.

Your point about Hitler really made me smile. Yes! You are right my use of a single word puts me right up there with a mass murderer.

I couldn't care less who somebody chooses to go home with, but there is still no third sex.

You silly person. (I hope that language is not to harsh)

Who changed it from queer to gay ? ?

[bkkrox]

BKKROX! People like you crack me up. If mere symbols on a screen can upset you so much, how do you survive in the real world? Get a grip of yourself man.

The word queer is one I have heard around the office and, now this may shock you, was being used by a gentleman's gentleman, or 'queer' if you like.

Your point about Hitler really made me smile. Yes! You are right my use of a single word puts me right up there with a mass murderer.

I couldn't care less who somebody chooses to go home with, but there is still no third sex.

You silly person. (I hope that language is not to harsh)

I survive just fine in the real world mate,believe me. And your 'symbols on a screen' didnt offend me nearly as much as you seem to think, that said I will still call attention to what I think is a derogatory remark!

My opinion, and as you said we are all allowed one ,is that if you want to be taken seriously then you may want to use words a little less likely to offend...opps dare I say,a little more PC.

Yes,some gay people use that term the same way as African Americans may use another term...that does not mean that you get to!

Clearly you are one of the few who was born the "right" colour, sexual orientation,religion etc ,so therefore are unable to understand just how much flippant comments like yours piss minorities off.

Oh, and you may have noticed that by a strict,western definition of 'is there a third sex at dna level'..we are in agreement.

[dukkha]

BKKROX! People like you crack me up. If mere symbols on a screen can upset you so much, how do you survive in the real world? Get a grip of yourself man.

The word queer is one I have heard around the office and, now this may shock you, was being used by a gentleman's gentleman, or 'queer' if you like.

Your point about Hitler really made me smile. Yes! You are right my use of a single word puts me right up there with a mass murderer.

I couldn't care less who somebody chooses to go home with, but there is still no third sex.

You silly person. (I hope that language is not to harsh)

Who changed it from queer to gay ? ? The change was a gradual one over the last decade...the change in semantic was to find an inclusive term that embraced all from gay/lesbian/friends of same/people who do not adhere to a strictly heterosexual view of life/blah blah blah...personally I prefer it...of course it grew through the media/academia and other such sources...like all language, words change, we went through sissy, poofter, fag, and lots of denigrating words...in Australia the two terms that are used to put people down, are, sadly, poofter, and the other, a womans genitals, gives you some insight in to the culture...but there will always be scape goats whether it be wimmin, poofs, blacks, alas homphobia is alive and well in the cosmos so dont hold ones breathe for some kind of equality cos ya might just turn blue in the face....but we all live in hope of a world where all are treated equal...

[dukkha]

BKKROX! People like you crack me up. If mere symbols on a screen can upset you so much, how do you survive in the real world? Get a grip of yourself man.

The word queer is one I have heard around the office and, now this may shock you, was being used by a gentleman's gentleman, or 'queer' if you like.

Your point about Hitler really made me smile. Yes! You are right my use of a single word puts me right up there with a mass murderer.

I couldn't care less who somebody chooses to go home with, but there is still no third sex.

You silly person. (I hope that language is not to harsh)

Who changed it from queer to gay ? ? The change was a gradual one over the last decade...the change in semantic was to find an inclusive term that embraced all from gay/lesbian/friends of same/people who do not adhere to a strictly heterosexual view of life/blah blah blah...personally I prefer it...of course it grew through the media/academia and other such sources...like all language, words change, we went through sissy, poofter, fag, and lots of denigrating words...in Australia the two terms that are used to put people down, are, sadly, poofter, and the other, a womans genitals, gives you some insight in to the culture...but there will always be scape goats whether it be wimmin, poofs, blacks, alas homphobia is alive and well in the cosmos so dont hold ones breathe for some kind of equality cos ya might just turn blue in the face....but we all live in hope of a world where all are treated equal...

OOOOOOOOPS, read it as change from gay to queer...to my knowledge 'gay' preceded 'queer' although in the 50's queer was probably poplular, but then the pendulum swung to gay and now back again to 'queer' through a process of politicisation i think...sorry for the confusion...indeed a senior momento!

[DirkGently]

BKKROX, you kill me. You have no idea about my sexual tastes, yet you can still tell me what is right and wrong. I promise to tell my co-worker who enjoys the company of likewise humans (i trust that is ok) that he is a vile biggot and being gay is no defense for using such a vile word.

When I meet folk like you I can't help but wind them up. My gay co-workers refer to me as a winging pom and a nafhetty (naf hetrosexual) I find that funny as hel_l and don't blink about using a gay joke. The stuff I have said would drive you mad, but anyone in the real world would understand that my comments do not belie any hatred.

Best of luck to you.

Ever heard the one about a gay and a pot of youghurt.................

[DirkGently]

BKKROX, I find you so funny, I have fired off emails to the makers of TV shows like ' QUEER eye for a straight guy' and ' QUEER as folk' telling them that they are nasty humans.

Very funny.

[bkkrox]

BKKROX, I find you so funny, I have fired off emails to the makers of TV shows like ' QUEER eye for a straight guy' and ' QUEER as folk' telling them that they are nasty humans.

Very funny.

DirkGently, I assure you that I am not remotely wound up by you. I too am finding this somewhat comical , as I know that no matter how may times or in how many ways I try to explain this you to ,you will find some friend or some show title or some book title to try to justify your position.

queer is SOMETIMES used BY GAY PEOPLE in a positive self indentification role (your friend using it andQUEER EYE) and given its original meaning can be used for its double entendre (Queer as folk..queers as <deleted>, stange as people etc etc)Please note the overiding theme,..gay writers,people and characters using the term...

I assure you I am not some manic activist on a mission...my life is way too hectic for that!I am just hoping that maybe,you will be open to the possibility that using this term can be offensive to people.Google it or check your dictionary and you will see things like: used as a disparaging term for a homosexual person, considered offensive and derisive.

Best email Websters and Oxford dictionary....do they not watch Queer Eye....<deleted>?!

[jumnien]

You go, girl!

[sting0001]

Something tells me whoever is pushing for a "third sex" can't distinguish between sexual preference and gender. Unfortunately, there are only two genders for every race in this world, female and male. Being gay, lesbian or cross-dresser has nothing to do with genders.

Your remarks are very un PC and you really shouldn't be peddling truth like this.

Other than perhaps a few unfortunate people with birth defects, we all have our very clearly defined role in re-production. Surely we don't need to draw them a diagram do we!

Couldn't this be put in the gay section as scorn is going to be poured on anybody that doesn't support these cranks! Were all soon going to be described as homo-phobic or some other crap, the heat will rise on the debate and people will be threatened with holidays for daring to suggest that it isn't normal behaviour for a man to wear a dress and ride round the beach front all night screaching "hello sexy man"!

Well Cesar wore a dress both while being a priest, or being a general. I do believe he died wearing a custom that was wore by both Male and Female.Cesar abnormal man? LOL. And yes it's more normal for male to wear a skirt than other thing if you refer to the last 2 000 years of human history (during the bible, a masculine man have to have longhairs and to wore skirt .... Did 'braveheart' was a fag, well he crushed several english armies and was wearing a skirt -kilt-).

So your coments are not homophobics, but simply ridicules, and make you look like a foolish (I do believe you are not foolish)

[Wellyoudidask]

Im aware of adam and eve, whos the other one ?

The other one is usually called 'reality'.

it wont be reality til they are recognised will it ?

[Wellyoudidask]

BKKROX! People like you crack me up. If mere symbols on a screen can upset you so much, how do you survive in the real world? Get a grip of yourself man.

The word queer is one I have heard around the office and, now this may shock you, was being used by a gentleman's gentleman, or 'queer' if you like.

Your point about Hitler really made me smile. Yes! You are right my use of a single word puts me right up there with a mass murderer.

I couldn't care less who somebody chooses to go home with, but there is still no third sex.

You silly person. (I hope that language is not to harsh)

I survive just fine in the real world mate,believe me. And your 'symbols on a screen' didnt offend me nearly as much as you seem to think, that said I will still call attention to what I think is a derogatory remark!

My opinion, and as you said we are all allowed one ,is that if you want to be taken seriously then you may want to use words a little less likely to offend...opps dare I say,a little more PC.

Yes,some gay people use that term the same way as African Americans may use another term...that does not mean that you get to!

Clearly you are one of the few who was born the "right" colour, sexual orientation,religion etc ,so therefore are unable to understand just how much flippant comments like yours piss minorities off.

Oh, and you may have noticed that by a strict,western definition of 'is there a third sex at dna level'..we are in agreement.

So is it a word they can use and we cant ? ( the n and q words )

[ColPyat]

Im aware of adam and eve, whos the other one ?

The other one is usually called 'reality'.

it wont be reality til they are recognised will it ?

True. And some here are desperate in their attempts not to recognize reality.

Well, there are also people around who believe the earth is flat, and it actually took quite a struggle a few hundred years ago until the establishment accepted the idea that the earth might be sort of roundish.

[Wellyoudidask]

Something tells me whoever is pushing for a "third sex" can't distinguish between sexual preference and gender. Unfortunately, there are only two genders for every race in this world, female and male. Being gay, lesbian or cross-dresser has nothing to do with genders.

Your remarks are very un PC and you really shouldn't be peddling truth like this.

Other than perhaps a few unfortunate people with birth defects, we all have our very clearly defined role in re-production. Surely we don't need to draw them a diagram do we!

Couldn't this be put in the gay section as scorn is going to be poured on anybody that doesn't support these cranks! Were all soon going to be described as homo-phobic or some other crap, the heat will rise on the debate and people will be threatened with holidays for daring to suggest that it isn't normal behaviour for a man to wear a dress and ride round the beach front all night screaching "hello sexy man"!

Well Cesar wore a dress both while being a priest, or being a general. I do believe he died wearing a custom that was wore by both Male and Female.Cesar abnormal man? LOL. And yes it's more normal for male to wear a skirt than other thing if you refer to the last 2 000 years of human history (during the bible, a masculine man have to have longhairs and to wore skirt .... Did 'braveheart' was a fag, well he crushed several english armies and was wearing a skirt -kilt-).

So your coments are not homophobics, but simply ridicules, and make you look like a foolish (I do believe you are not foolish)

Did they wear high heels and lipstick iwonder

[AlexLah]

Ok thats it!

I say the next TV pizzup party all attendees must wear a (mini) skirt.

But please do not wear socks and sandals with it......

[MarkBKK]

Im aware of adam and eve, whos the other one ?

The other one is usually called 'reality'.

it wont be reality til they are recognised will it ?

True. And some here are desperate in their attempts not to recognize reality.

Well, there are also people around who believe the earth is flat, and it actually took quite a struggle a few hundred years ago until the establishment accepted the idea that the earth might be sort of roundish.

I'm always interested in the opinions of people who have probably been here a lot longer than me and probably know a lot more about Thailand than I do. They're usually very informative.

Which people ''are desperate in their attempts not to recognize reality''? The one's who are scientifically correct, or the ones who seem to know something of Thai culture and beliefs?

[farang prince]

Im aware of adam and eve, whos the other one ?

The other one is usually called 'reality'.

it wont be reality til they are recognised will it ?

True. And some here are desperate in their attempts not to recognize reality.

Well, there are also people around who believe the earth is flat, and it actually took quite a struggle a few hundred years ago until the establishment accepted the idea that the earth might be sort of roundish.

I'm always interested in the opinions of people who have probably been here a lot longer than me and probably know a lot more about Thailand than I do. They're usually very informative.

Which people ''are desperate in their attempts not to recognize reality''? The one's who are scientifically correct, or the ones who seem to know something of Thai culture and beliefs?

To answer your question, it just depends on where you live. If you live in Thailand, the attitude of some farang...especially if he brings his preconceived ideas from his native country...mean nothing. In other western countries, I'm sure being scientifically correct will prevail.

[ColPyat]

I'm always interested in the opinions of people who have probably been here a lot longer than me and probably know a lot more about Thailand than I do. They're usually very informative.

Which people ''are desperate in their attempts not to recognize reality''? The one's who are scientifically correct, or the ones who seem to know something of Thai culture and beliefs?

Science recognizes that the gender issues are more complex than our "there are only two gender folks" try to convince us here (google the term 'intersex'), and traditional Thai customs do also recognize the existence of a third gender (such as many non Judeo-Christian cultures do).

[MarkBKK]

Im aware of adam and eve, whos the other one ?

The other one is usually called 'reality'.

it wont be reality til they are recognised will it ?

True. And some here are desperate in their attempts not to recognize reality.

Well, there are also people around who believe the earth is flat, and it actually took quite a struggle a few hundred years ago until the establishment accepted the idea that the earth might be sort of roundish.

I'm always interested in the opinions of people who have probably been here a lot longer than me and probably know a lot more about Thailand than I do. They're usually very informative.

Which people ''are desperate in their attempts not to recognize reality''? The one's who are scientifically correct, or the ones who seem to know something of Thai culture and beliefs?

To answer your question, it just depends on where you live. If you live in Thailand, the attitude of some farang...especially if he brings his preconceived ideas from his native country...mean nothing. In other western countries, I'm sure being scientifically correct will prevail.

I've always considered it similar to the ''You're black, therefore you can't be English'' argument (fortunately on the decline, but still heard), i.e. ignorance (maybe more of cultural mores than scientific fact in this case).

I also think it shows a great lack of empathy on the part of the ''You've got a Y chromosome, now stop being silly and take that skirt off ...'' brigade.

[dseawarrior]

It may come down to the simple catch-all Unisex.

Restrooms are already going that way.

Excellent thought! Great discussion in general...

Uni-sexual, pan-sexual, omni-sexual...

Are not all real human beings a mix of different gender expressions???

Sure, one gender stereotype may predominate, but even then, the other gender expression is very close behind...

I vote for fairness, justice and balance myself... Seems that gives the broadest views...

Discriminatory practices come from narrowly-held views...

As another poster mentioned, I would also like to see a discussion on any type of compulsory service (military or otherwise) and why that should be necessary for anyone...

Ever notice how most Thai statues of the Lord Buddha seem quite gender ambivalent or "androgenous" ???

Perhaps their depictions of the Lord Buddha is part of the broader message from that Great Teacher... ???

dseawarrior

[dseawarrior]

Another little tidbit along these lines...

Ever notice that Lord Ganesha (the Hindu God with an elephant head and human body...) often has largish female breasts on a "male" body???

Again, for this example, it seems that compassion comes from a combination of genders and sexes -- and even in this depiction of the Godhead -- a combination of different species!!!

So, to me, it seems that a synthesis of different perspectives seems to give greater wisdom that narrow adherence to one point of view...

Enjoy your views,

dseawarrior

[solo siam]

Surely its just the Thais aptitide for tolerance rather than any thought that buddha (or whoever) created ladyboys!

[torito]

There was a time when we were made to believe that negroes were less intelligent and inferior. This was a natural fact.

Just 40 years ago, would not exist too many american who would bet that some day negroes would be equals, could drink water from the same taps, eat on the same restaurants and tables than the whites, sit on the front rows of the white churchs and buses. Just see were we are now.

During the latest 20 years or so we have seen so many changes in relation with homosexuality acceptance, that today I would not be afraid to bet that in a near furture, homosexuality will be totally accepted.

The acceptance of homosexuality has nothing to do with nature or science. It is a cultural issue, and the indicators are that our cultures are moving in the direction of acceptance.

Edited April 30, 2007 by torito

[Eman]

THEY CANT EVER CHANGE THE BIT ON THEIR BIRTH CERTIFICATE THAT SAY "SEX ",.. AND THERE ARE STILL ONLY 2 TOILETS IN THAILAND, MALE AND FEMALE, .I HAVE YET TO SEE "KATOEY ",ON A TOILET DOOR. I LIKE EM, IM OFF TO JENNY STAR BAR TONIGHT !

I was in a Ladyboy bar in Koh Samui, which had two restrooms at the back. One on the left said Ladies, the one on the right said Men...

I suggested they put one in the middle that said Ladyboy.

I thought it was good idea, but they didn't do it.

[PeaceBlondie]

As for restrooms (public toilets), this weekend we gay men were at a tourist area frequented by all types of people, and the door to the men's room was locked, and the attendant was absent. The last Thai female out of the lady's restroom (a middle aged lady) just told us men (straight and gay) to go ahead into the women's stalls. No big deal.

I had a northern Thai gay uni student looking at the computer screen when folks were discussing the Chiang Mai college that was building a third restroom for katoeys. He just laughed and said some of the katoeys were strong enough to drag the straight boys into the stalls! And he was over six feet tall. But when I taught at one of the other Chiang Mai colleges, the gay boys were allowed to wear the female uniform, and all the openly gay boys used the girls' restroom.

I suspect, without being sure, that the third sex or 'other kind of women' are considered more feminine than masculine, regardless of the plumbing bits.

[farang prince]

As for restrooms (public toilets), this weekend we gay men were at a tourist area frequented by all types of people, and the door to the men's room was locked, and the attendant was absent. The last Thai female out of the lady's restroom (a middle aged lady) just told us men (straight and gay) to go ahead into the women's stalls. No big deal.

I had a northern Thai gay uni student looking at the computer screen when folks were discussing the Chiang Mai college that was building a third restroom for katoeys. He just laughed and said some of the katoeys were strong enough to drag the straight boys into the stalls! And he was over six feet tall. But when I taught at one of the other Chiang Mai colleges, the gay boys were allowed to wear the female uniform, and all the openly gay boys used the girls' restroom.

I suspect, without being sure, that the third sex or 'other kind of women' are considered more feminine than masculine, regardless of the plumbing bits.

Actually PB, my ladyboy uses the women's restroom. There is never a problem.