Recognition For 'third Sex'

[ProThaiExpat]

Back to the OP issue, not speaking Thai and not much trusting of translation, who knows what this one individual was getting to.

It seems to me that a transgendered person, especially post surgery, has the right to be treated as the sex he/she has become through modern science.

Efforts to ensure the rights of this individual through a constitutional right would do the trick, protecting the individual from the vagaries of ever changing Thai governments.

Of course, simple law changes would do it as well. The requirement that ones original sex determination by nature be your sex for life and to be so identified on official documents makes not sense.

The Olympic movement has struggled with this for years and I have no clue what the rules are now regarding chromosomes.

Few cultures ever have the opportunity to completely rewrite their constitutions as often as Thailand has and clearly they would like to get it as right as possible.

Simplicity is always best, but rarely achieved. Equal rights to all including ones chosen sex is a simple approach.

Those posters who espouse equality for all but no third sex need to define how that will be accomplished for the post-op transgendered.

I have been in Thailand long enough to have heard of the "third sex", a term I believed to have applied to ladyboys, katoey and post-ops.

If that is the Thai way and Thais understand what it means, then placing that term in their constitution would certainly be very liberating and if applied in the spirit of the constitutional drafters, future law drafters would know where to draw the line and permit passport holders and ID card holders the sexual identification that would coincide with their sexual identities. I suspect, post-op transgenders would be the logical place to draw the line for ID and passport sex change identification. However, that doesn't conform to the Thai understanding of third sex, as I have learned it.

[torito]

It seems to me that a transgendered person, especially post surgery, has the right to be treated as the sex he/she has become through modern science.

This should be the minimum....

Homosexuality acceptance, in all terms, is a phenomenom that is occurring all around the world. I think that Thais are just following what western gay communities had been doing for years....

As for homophobics, I do not believe that they can stop transgen operations, I do not believe that they can reverse laws that protect homosexuals against discrimination (existing already in many countries), I do not believe that they can stop the Sydney Mardi Grass....and so on

The homosexual community is a powerful economic community (and lot of votes as well), and we may like it or not, they will win this battle..... it is not a matter of "if" but of "when"

Edited May 1, 2007 by torito

[dseawarrior]

It seems to me that a transgendered person, especially post surgery, has the right to be treated as the sex he/she has become through modern science.

This should be the minimum....

Homosexuality acceptance, in all terms, is a phenomenom that is occurring all around the world. I think that Thais are just following what western gay communities had been doing for years....

As for homophobics, I do not believe that they can stop transgen operations, I do not believe that they can reverse laws that protect homosexuals against discrimination (existing already in many countries), I do not believe that they can stop the Sydney Mardi Grass....and so on

The homosexual community is a powerful economic community (and lot of votes as well), and we may like it or not, they will win this battle..... it is not a matter of "if" but of "when"

Thank you Pro Thai Expat...

Good observations...

I believe -- if my understanding of Thai history is correct -- that Thailand has LONG been progressing in terms of its awareness and tolerance of transgendered people and transgendered behaviors... Some accounts of Thai history and drama have included TG people in their stories for hundreds if not thousands of years...

Think about it... Why do you think that Thailand leads the world in transgender/ transsexual surgeries??? It is not just a response to Western "customers" seeking out such surgeries... Many natives have sought out these surgeries for many many years... And from my conversations with post-op katoeys, there is definitely a discounted Thai native price out there and added compassion for TG Thai natives...

The Thai TGs did not "learn" transgenderism from the West... I believe that TG people are generally "born" and then they seek out remedies (e.g. hormonal or surgical, etc.) -- just like TG people everywhere -- if they have the opportunity to seek out such remedies...

Being TG is not easy at all (anywhere in this world), but I do believe it is "easier" to be TG in Thailand for a variety of cultural and religious factors...

Like in nearly all cultures around the world, TGs have been living productive beings in society from the beginning of human time... This is true of the Hyras in India, the Berdache in the Americas and even the "Witches" and "Goddess Worshippers" of Old (pre-Christian) Europe... Some "Christian" cultures -- it seems -- have sought to suppress gender variant people -- with ineffective results -- because it is nearly impossible to suppress fundamental aspects of human nature...

TGs and homosexuals have been discriminated against in many many cultures from the beginning of human time... Some "straights" are threatened by any beings that violate the "natural order" and the "natural gender"... And that narrow thinking results in all sorts of violence to people who are considered "different." That violence also wastes HUGE amounts of human talent...

But NATURE creates these differences for good reasons... "Sports" and "variations" in genetic expression serve to extend the survival of the species...

Often some of the most creative geniuses in this world are gender variant...

For example, some very carefully researched biographies of Sir Isaac Newton see him as being very gender-queer... (Newton was "odd" or "queer" in a LOT of ways -- the creativity seemed to be just spilling out of his ears... ;-) Without Newton there would not have been Calculus... ...and Albert Einstein would have had to do a LOT of extra homework to make his discoveries... Einstein did not say he "stood on the shoulders of Giants" for nothing... Einstein knew the huge debt that he owed to Sir Isaac Newton and Galileo Galilei (another gender variant person)...

Some people have even suggested that transgendered people might even be a next (higher?) step in human evolution...

It takes a lot of gumption, guts, ingenuity, perseverence and inspiration to try to transcend one's "natural born gender"... Some psychological studies of TG / transgendered people have even suggested that as a group they tend to have higher IQs and higher levels of creativity than "ordinary" straight people...

...just some food for thought that I have been digesting for quite a few years now...

Anyone is free to PM me if you want to continue this discussion in detail...

dseawarrior

[jumnien]

They don't call it narcissism for no reason.

[endure]

It seems to me that a transgendered person, especially post surgery, has the right to be treated as the sex he/she has become through modern science.

This should be the minimum....

Homosexuality acceptance, in all terms, is a phenomenom that is occurring all around the world. I think that Thais are just following what western gay communities had been doing for years....

As for homophobics, I do not believe that they can stop transgen operations, I do not believe that they can reverse laws that protect homosexuals against discrimination (existing already in many countries), I do not believe that they can stop the Sydney Mardi Grass....and so on

The homosexual community is a powerful economic community (and lot of votes as well), and we may like it or not, they will win this battle..... it is not a matter of "if" but of "when"

I'm sorry to have to jump in here but in general, by and large, and as a sweeping generalisation homosexuality and transgenderism have little to do with each other. Homosexual men (by definition) are men who are attracted to men. Transgendered men are men who believe that they ought to be women. Women are not (by definition) attractive to homosexual men.

[jumnien]

My Dad's gay and he used to bone one of his little drama student girls at Hollywood High. Gay men have far more varied sexual lives than some people would like to believe. It really is hard to pidgeon-hole people, especially where horniness is concerned.

[rainman]

My Dad's gay and he used to bone one of his little drama student girls at Hollywood High. Gay men have far more varied sexual lives than some people would like to believe. It really is hard to pidgeon-hole people, especially where horniness is concerned.

Your dad is bi then, not gay. Gay men don't "bone", especially not "little drama student girls". Your dad probably said he was gay so nobody would suspect him of having sex with underage high school girls.

I gave up on this thread a while back ..glad to see everyone's still going at it though

[jumnien]

My Dad's first male lover were together 17 years, then Ray for 5, now Mark for the last 8 years. I really do suspect he's gay; and he says he is. You'd probably be shocked to here that some "straight" men fool around with men too. Pidgeon-holing doesn't really work when matters of the horny heart are concerned.

[PeaceBlondie]

Many men who are essentially gay feel forced into doing straight sex (though not boning 17 year old girls unless they're in that age range themselves); this was more true in the past. Only when some of us became middle-aged did we finally give up on the boning thing and tried to find boners as a bonus. I've only been bi-sexual by activity after my divorce, and I finally gave it up when my female date was trying to please me, and the young man was literally knocking on the front door!

As several of us gay men have pointed out, the third gender or the transgendered people are not exactly gay; in the case of post-ops, far from it. It's not only about what the first partner wants; it's also about what the other partner wants. A gay Thai young man told me his choices are very slim, because most gay Thai men want a partner who acts macho!

[Ijustwannateach]

As Endure states, transgenderism and gay life typically have little to do with each other, even in Thailand (yes, of course there are exceptions and complications, but I'm speaking generally). Kathoeys don't feature largely at most of the gay discos I've been to (except in the shows) because it's a waste of everyone's time- the gay guys don't want kathoeys (mostly) and the kathoeys don't want the gay guys (mostly). There's a common hat trick where the kathoey poses as a gay boy until he's landed a rather butch gay partner; then he goes on to full kathoey mode and hopes his partner stays with him. I personally have little respect for those who practice such bait-and-switchery, and if I'm dating someone who suddenly shaves his armpits and starts wearing suspicious amounts of makeup, I put more distance between us.

Fortunately for the ladyboys there are straight-identified men (and fewer gay-identified men) who like them, but the supply of good partners for ladyboys is far outstripped by the demand, as far as I can tell. Many ladyboys are used by straight Thai men as casual sex partners, but this can hardly be the most satisfying situation for them. I wish them luck, as they have no easy road to walk.

"S"

[farang prince]

As Endure states, transgenderism and gay life typically have little to do with each other, even in Thailand (yes, of course there are exceptions and complications, but I'm speaking generally). Kathoeys don't feature largely at most of the gay discos I've been to (except in the shows) because it's a waste of everyone's time- the gay guys don't want kathoeys (mostly) and the kathoeys don't want the gay guys (mostly). There's a common hat trick where the kathoey poses as a gay boy until he's landed a rather butch gay partner; then he goes on to full kathoey mode and hopes his partner stays with him. I personally have little respect for those who practice such bait-and-switchery, and if I'm dating someone who suddenly shaves his armpits and starts wearing suspicious amounts of makeup, I put more distance between us.

Fortunately for the ladyboys there are straight-identified men (and fewer gay-identified men) who like them, but the supply of good partners for ladyboys is far outstripped by the demand, as far as I can tell. Many ladyboys are used by straight Thai men as casual sex partners, but this can hardly be the most satisfying situation for them. I wish them luck, as they have no easy road to walk.

"S"

Steven, you are absolutely right about gay men traditionally not being attracted to ladyboys (incidentally I never use the Thai slang word katoey, which many ladyboys consider a slur). Gay men are attracted to the male body and ladyboys have done everything in their power to look like a woman.

As I mentioned in an earlier post on this topic, ladyboys have a very difficult time finding good partners. In most cases, they will end up with bisexual men, although I know several successful relationships between ladyboys and heretofor straight men. In my case, I met my partner at a cabaret show, in which she was one of the stars. I was transfixed by her beauty and arranged to meet her. She was the first ladyboy I had ever been with and I think at first it was the mystique of her duality that so transfixed me. But as we really got to know each other better, it was her intelligence, her personality and her wonderful sense of humor that truly cemented our relationship. We have been together for four wonderful years now and I don't think either of us could be any happier. Last year we consumated our relationship with a civil union ceremony in Canada.

Over the past four years, I have learned a lot about transsexual (pre-op) and transgendered (post-op) people. The one overriding pattern I have found with these ladyboys is their total commitment to becoming women. It is an expensive process and physically very brutal.

They have chosen a very difficult life. But if you talk to them, they feel they did not have a choice. At a very early age (some less than 10 years old, but most no later than about 14), they knew in their minds that they were women living in a man's body. I should mention that there are also women who yearn to be men, but their number is substantially less than men wanting to become women. Yes, some of these ladyboys are in the sex trade. Some are entertainers. Some just live everyday lives as wait persons, sales clerks, government workers and educators. And some are just lost in today's Thai society.

The original intent of this thread was to discuss the efforts currently underway to officially recognize the historical presence of the Third Sex in Thai society. The gist of the article was that a gay activist was behind this effort and that the definition of the Third Sex was being expanded to include all gay people. This is a substantial revision of the traditional definition of the Third Sex and I'm not sure I agree with it. That does not, however, mean that I'm not in favor of all the legal protections possible for gay people, who continue to be one of the most maligned minorities throughout the world. In discussing this issue with several ladyboys, there was a surprising amount of ambivilence towards legal recognition of the Third Sex. I think there is already a realistic opinion that the current administration is not going to accept any change in the status quo, whether it be ladyboys or gay people. Most really don't want to create a confrontation with the government or the public about this issue for fear that there might be a backlash.

The attitudes of some of the posters on this thread bear witness to the prejudices and hostility directed towards the Third Sex that are not just limited to farangs, but also to a significant number of Thai people. While most Thais will never say anything disparaging to ladyboys, you can still see their contempt in their eyes. It is something that every ladyboy has experienced and has learned to live with.

Edited May 2, 2007 by farang prince

[Ijustwannateach]

^Wasn't aware the word was perceived as a slur- will avoid in the future.

[farang prince]

^Wasn't aware the word was perceived as a slur- will avoid in the future.

Steven, don't worry about it. This is just something that I picked up in conversation with my partner and other ladyboys. I'm sure there are plenty of ladyboys who don't pay any attention to being called katoeys.

[A_Traveller]

^^ Katoey is a word best avoided, since it can create a strong reaction, and can be used pejoratively.

Regards

[torito]

The attitudes of some of the posters on this thread bear witness to the prejudices and hostility directed towards the Third Sex that are not just limited to farangs, but also to a significant number of Thai people. While most Thais will never say anything disparaging to ladyboys, you can still see their contempt in their eyes. It is something that every ladyboy has experienced and has learned to live with.

'farang prince' I would like to qualify this idea that Lady boys are treated with contempt in this country...and allow me to give my arguments.

I have never seen a place in the world in where this people can dress as the want, have jobs anywhere, behave the way the want to behave, like in this country. I have been working in many places in Bangkok and I have always have one or two in my teams. I see and feel totally acceptance from their peers. I have never seen a rejection due to the way the are.

Now these environment have been always of young people. So my conclussion is that they may find contempt in older generations, but in the environment in where they move with young people, they are totally accepted.

Now, wherever you go, odd people is always treated with contempt. The most clear sample are ugly people and fat people. These people is really discriminated and treated with hidden scorn (and unfortunatelly they do not have the coverage and defense that homosexuals have made). Naturally, odd people will always feel the contempt on other's eyes.

So my conclussion is that in Thailand, lady boys are not treated with contempt due to their sexual inclination, but becuase they are odd in the first place.

[mikethevigoman]

BKKROX, I find you so funny, I have fired off emails to the makers of TV shows like ' QUEER eye for a straight guy' and ' QUEER as folk' telling them that they are nasty humans.

Very funny.

DirkGently, I assure you that I am not remotely wound up by you. I too am finding this somewhat comical , as I know that no matter how may times or in how many ways I try to explain this you to ,you will find some friend or some show title or some book title to try to justify your position.

queer is SOMETIMES used BY GAY PEOPLE in a positive self indentification role (your friend using it andQUEER EYE) and given its original meaning can be used for its double entendre (Queer as folk..queers as <deleted>, stange as people etc etc)Please note the overiding theme,..gay writers,people and characters using the term...

I assure you I am not some manic activist on a mission...my life is way too hectic for that!I am just hoping that maybe,you will be open to the possibility that using this term can be offensive to people.Google it or check your dictionary and you will see things like: used as a disparaging term for a homosexual person, considered offensive and derisive.

Best email Websters and Oxford dictionary....do they not watch Queer Eye....<deleted>?!

THEY SEEM TO HAVE GOT IT SUSSED IN AUSTRALIA .

[mikethevigoman]

And I thought the 3rd sex was transgendered?

Found this as an explation of the word queer,,,

Since its emergence in the English language in the 16th century (related to the German quer, meaning 'across, at right angle, diagonally or transverse'), queer has generally meant 'strange', 'unusual', or 'out of alignment'. It might refer to something suspicious or 'not quite right', or to a person with mild insanity or who exhibits socially inappropriate behavior. The expression 'in Queer Street' was used in the UK as of the 1811 edition of Francis Grose's A Classical Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue for someone in financial trouble. It gained its implication of sexual deviance (especially that of homosexual and/or effeminate males) in the late 19th century; an early recorded usage of the word in this sense was in a letter by John Sholto Douglas, 9th Marquess of Queensberry to his son Lord Alfred Douglas.

Subsequently, for most of the 20th century, 'queer' was frequently used as a derogatory term for effeminate and/or gay males, and others exhibiting non-traditional gender behavior,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,THIS FOR GAY, # cheery: bright and pleasant; promoting a feeling of cheer; "a cheery hello"; "a gay sunny room"; "a sunny smile"

# full of or showing high-spirited merriment; "when hearts were young and gay"; "a poet could not but be gay, in such a jocund company"- Wordsworth; "the jolly crowd at the reunion"; "jolly old Saint Nick"; "a jovial old gentleman"; "have a merry Christmas"; "peals of merry laughter"; "a mirthful laugh"

# given to social pleasures often including dissipation; "led a gay Bohemian life"; "a gay old rogue with an eye for the ladies"

# brave: brightly colored and showy; "girls decked out in brave new dresses"; "brave banners flying"; "`braw' is a Scottish word"; "a dress a bit too gay for her years"; "birds with gay plumage"

# offering fun and gaiety; "a festive (or festal) occasion"; "gay and exciting night life"; "a merry evening"

# homosexual or arousing homosexual desires

# homosexual: someone who practices homosexuality; having a sexual attraction to persons of the same sex

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn...........................THIS FOR LADYBOY,, IM STILL CONFUSED ! he term "kathoey" is not an exact equivalent of the modern western transwoman — it suggests that the person is a type of male, unlike the term sao praphet song, which suggests a female sex identity, or phet thee sam, which suggests a third gender. Australian scholar of sexual politics in Thailand Peter Jackson claims that the term "kathoey" was used in premodern times to refer to intersexuals, and that the usage changed in the middle of the 20th century to cover cross-dressing males.[1] The term can refer to males who exhibit varying degrees of femininity — many kathoeys dress as women and undergo feminising medical procedures such as hormone replacement therapy, breast implants, genital reassignment surgery, or Adam's apple reductions. Others may wear makeup and use feminine pronouns, but dress as men, and are closer to the western category of effeminate gay man than transgender. Regardless of their gender presentation, their sexual orientation is towards men, who are not considered to be gay.[citation needed]

Kathoeys are often identified at a young age, and are considered to be 'born that way'. They may have access to hormones (available without prescription) and medical procedures during their teenage years.

The term "kathoey" may be considered pejorative, especially in the form "kathoey-saloey". It has a meaning similar to the English language "fairy" or "queen".[2]

Edited May 10, 2007 by mikethevigoman