Thailand Among 'top Four Countries' For Japanese Investors

[LaoPo]

LaoPo- At least on this post, and I see you've been around TV a lot longer than me, Thaigoon started with a reasonable OP. Right or wrong, it's reasonable to think that Japanese investment will help Thailand. Not a fact, but a reasonable position.

Just a quick example--what you call low paying jobs would tend, I think, to pay much better than whatever else displaced former farm workers tend to make. So, and again just as an example, the possible Japanese investment you dismiss (gee- capitalist companies want to make money?), might actually help to provide the kind of bridge level jobs that are needed to give the rural poor in Thailand a future. And if you look back, you may find that, as in my family, in your own family your preceding generations went from farm to low paying factory jobs and then on from there. And often the same in Thailand for those who have already moved on and up, perhaps like Thaigoon's own family (certainly this was the case for many of the young Thai-Americans I studied back in the US).

Many of the posters on this thread have engaged in the kind of cynical nonsense that just doesn't respond rationally to the OP. Did the OP get drawn into it, and was that the goal of some of the posters? Probably, but still, I question their motivation, and I do sense a whiff of animosity toward "uppity" Thais on this forum.

More importantly, did the OP submit an interesting post? Yes, in my view. And it doesn't really matter that he's apparently a 20-something student or young professional just starting out. All voices, if they elect to move beyond cynical one-liners, have something to offer the discussion, at least in my view.

So to return to the point. I think Japanese investment will be a positive factor for Thailand's future.

You have some good points, dumspero.

However, I will refrain from answering any further into detail to the OP's topic as the same OP, Mr. Thaigoon, found it necessary to PM me, insulting and bashing upon my person.

He's gone too far now and should re-read the Forum Rules.

Discussion is fine with me, personal insults and bashing is not.

LaoPo

[longway]

Yeah, I too, even with my experiences, still respect brown students. I know that not all brown folks are what you call kwais or what we call monkeys.

so exactly how do spics rate on the gradient of whiteness? i mean alot of u are pretty brown. better than thais i am sure, but below the irish i would estimate. i guess from your post you consider urself an honorary white, at least by association.

in a way thailand and italy have something in common from WW2, both countries tried to carve little empires of their own by clinging on to the shirt tails far greater powers, trying to stand on the shoulders of giants as it were.

Its easy to have lofty opinions when standing on the shoulders of foreign giants, dontcha know?

as if ur head isnt bloated enough

it does explain the attitude of alot of posters on this board. as well as their level of debate. my dad's dad's dad was better your dad's dad's dad.

He's currently studying in the US, and on a holiday from Thaivisa

i dont know why he bothered to take some of the crapola posted on this board seriously, but it was entertaining while it lasted. people love to take the piss out of thais ineveitably, but many couldnt take it when took the piss out of them.

but anyway whatever.

[BAF]

so exactly how do spics rate on the gradient of whiteness?

If you are interested in such issues you should ask ThaiGoon and his whitening cream users countrymen, I have no time for this race based crap.

You might have not noticed it (and why does that not surprise me..?) but I was replying to ThaiGoon using ThaiGoon's arguments and ThaiGoon's speak...

i mean alot of u are pretty brown. better than thais i am sure, but below the irish i would estimate. i guess from your post you consider urself an honorary white, at least by association.

The vast majority of Italians are of Caucasian race, minorities (mostly in the South and the islands) are the results of the many contacts with other races from North Africa, Asia etc

Many Italians get tanned rather easily because (contrary to Ireland... ) we get a lot of sun but visit Italy in the wintertime and people will be as white as the Irish (probably not as "orangish" pasty though).

Are you in Thailand? Take a look at the Italian satellite channel "RAI International" and see what Italians look like since you have clearly no clue.

in a way thailand and italy have something in common from WW2, both countries tried to carve little empires of their own by clinging on to the shirt tails far greater powers, trying to stand on the shoulders of giants as it were.

See how much Thailand and Italy have in common: 2000 years ago my ancestors were building a millenary empire, were building roads, sewers and buildings that we can still see and in some cases use today, were conquering and ruling for more than a millenium most of the then known world, were founding and shaping the Western civilization and were refining the ars rethorica while longway's Anglo-Saxon ancestors were painting their faces and were shitting in holes in the ground and ThaiGoon's ancestors didn't even existed...

The earliest accounts we have of the Irish (and the Scottish, the Welsh and the English, amongst many others) is from Roman historians.

Guess where many (if not most) of the words of your very "own" language come from, longway (this is why it's so easy for Italians to build up an English vocabulary once they get a grasp of the English grammar and syntax).

Do you really thing, for example, that "language", "grammar" and "syntax" (linguaggio, grammatica e sintassi) are English words?

Longway, when you want to talk about empires like you have just pathetically tried to do thinking to "put me in my place", you (and the Thais) don't even have a word for it and use the Italian one: "empire" (impero, from the Lat. "imperium") is a word originated from a city 20 kms from where I am now (not in Ireland and not in Thailand) and we have had the longest lasting and farthest reaching (in any possible meaning) one...

[Thaddeus]

Just wondering, why does every thread that Thaigoon starts or participates in in a significant way descends into a flame war very quickly?

Bonus prize for the TV member who spots the common denominator...

Yeah, notice the names of the posters in those threads? Brilliant minds like Bkkandrew, Cdnvic, Alexth, BingoBongo, Dakhar, Think too Mut, Jaasreeves (spelling?) Hmmm I wonder why.

Possibly because they have a good grip on reality.

[Thaddeus]

Ooops... note to self .... read the whole thread before commenting.

[longway]

Longway, when you want to talk about empires like you have just pathetically tried to do thinking to "put me in my place",

well im glad you didnt take me seriously then.

Guess where many (if not most) of the words of your very "own" language come from, longway

ive always liked the italian language btw, its a nice language

Edited April 25, 2007 by longway

[BAF]

ive always liked the italian language btw, its a nice language

So how come you don't even know how Italians look like? Were you hearing it on the radio?

Heck, there are probably more tanning salons here than in Ireland since, as in any other Western Europe country, nowadays most folks prefer tanned skin to their own white skin thinking it's more beautiful, sexy etc.

The only difference is that here people can, for a big part of the year, get naturally tanned just going to the beach and liying under the sun that we have and most other Europeans have not

Ciao

[pampal]

Enter Joke Mode

Who wants to buy 3000 Italian Rifles?

In what condition are they?

Excellent, Only been dropped once.

Exit Joke Mode

People lighten up, it's gonna be OK

[endure]

The flaming and personal insults in this thread will stop right now. Next flame gets the poster 10 days off. If you can't be civil, be quiet.

[endure]

LaoPo- At least on this post, and I see you've been around TV a lot longer than me, Thaigoon started with a reasonable OP. Right or wrong, it's reasonable to think that Japanese investment will help Thailand. Not a fact, but a reasonable position.

Just a quick example--what you call low paying jobs would tend, I think, to pay much better than whatever else displaced former farm workers tend to make. So, and again just as an example, the possible Japanese investment you dismiss (gee- capitalist companies want to make money?), might actually help to provide the kind of bridge level jobs that are needed to give the rural poor in Thailand a future. And if you look back, you may find that, as in my family, in your own family your preceding generations went from farm to low paying factory jobs and then on from there. And often the same in Thailand for those who have already moved on and up, perhaps like Thaigoon's own family (certainly this was the case for many of the young Thai-Americans I studied back in the US).

Many of the posters on this thread have engaged in the kind of cynical nonsense that just doesn't respond rationally to the OP. Did the OP get drawn into it, and was that the goal of some of the posters? Probably, but still, I question their motivation, and I do sense a whiff of animosity toward "uppity" Thais on this forum.

More importantly, did the OP submit an interesting post? Yes, in my view. And it doesn't really matter that he's apparently a 20-something student or young professional just starting out. All voices, if they elect to move beyond cynical one-liners, have something to offer the discussion, at least in my view.

So to return to the point. I think Japanese investment will be a positive factor for Thailand's future.

You have some good points, dumspero.

However, I will refrain from answering any further into detail to the OP's topic as the same OP, Mr. Thaigoon, found it necessary to PM me, insulting and bashing upon my person.

He's gone too far now and should re-read the Forum Rules.

Discussion is fine with me, personal insults and bashing is not.

LaoPo

The REPORT button is there for you to use. Abusive PMs are not acceptable.

[LaoPo]

LaoPo- At least on this post, and I see you've been around TV a lot longer than me, Thaigoon started with a reasonable OP. Right or wrong, it's reasonable to think that Japanese investment will help Thailand. Not a fact, but a reasonable position.

Just a quick example--what you call low paying jobs would tend, I think, to pay much better than whatever else displaced former farm workers tend to make. So, and again just as an example, the possible Japanese investment you dismiss (gee- capitalist companies want to make money?), might actually help to provide the kind of bridge level jobs that are needed to give the rural poor in Thailand a future. And if you look back, you may find that, as in my family, in your own family your preceding generations went from farm to low paying factory jobs and then on from there. And often the same in Thailand for those who have already moved on and up, perhaps like Thaigoon's own family (certainly this was the case for many of the young Thai-Americans I studied back in the US).

Many of the posters on this thread have engaged in the kind of cynical nonsense that just doesn't respond rationally to the OP. Did the OP get drawn into it, and was that the goal of some of the posters? Probably, but still, I question their motivation, and I do sense a whiff of animosity toward "uppity" Thais on this forum.

More importantly, did the OP submit an interesting post? Yes, in my view. And it doesn't really matter that he's apparently a 20-something student or young professional just starting out. All voices, if they elect to move beyond cynical one-liners, have something to offer the discussion, at least in my view.

So to return to the point. I think Japanese investment will be a positive factor for Thailand's future.

You have some good points, dumspero.

However, I will refrain from answering any further into detail to the OP's topic as the same OP, Mr. Thaigoon, found it necessary to PM me, insulting and bashing upon my person.

He's gone too far now and should re-read the Forum Rules.

Discussion is fine with me, personal insults and bashing is not.

LaoPo

The REPORT button is there for you to use. Abusive PMs are not acceptable.

I know Endure, thank you, but the 'report' button is not in the PM-messages; I chosed not to answer or report/copy&paste said PM's....yet, but I will if Thaigoon starts again.

LaoPo

[sriracha john]

He's currently studying in the US, and on a holiday from Thaivisa.

Lets make sure we don't judge Thailand by his poor example. There are Thais on this forum who are friends I respect very much.

The absolute BEST :

Golf

Senior Member

Location: USA

Joined: 2003-11-10

==================

BUT extremely unfortunate for Thaivisa:

Last Seen: 24 Sep 2006

[shochu]

A few things about history - the real history.

First, most of the world's most important universities such as Oxford and Harvard still follow the traditions started at Al-Azhar. Islam has contributed far more to our understanding of things related to our everyday environment than anything the so called "whites" have contributed. And as I have said before - the middle eastern countries excel in math and sciences. When I was a grad student I had to do three graduate level engineering courses and one was taught by an Indian and the other was taught by an Egpytian. Most of my friends who took sciences in school have had the same experiences.

Second, the german barbarians routed and humiliated the romans - or did you forget that part of history.

Cheers to those who have sent kind words!

[BAF]

A few things about history - the real history.

All I see here are twists and partial truths of the "real history" to suit your ideology.

First, most of the world's most important universities such as Oxford and Harvard still follow the traditions started at Al-Azhar.

Al-Azhar is nowadays just a center (one of the most important indeed) for Islamic studies. It has nothing to do with Oxford and Harvard and you are not seeing foreign students flocking there in droves to learm about economics, social sciences, politics, engineering, maths etc on a world level... or are you?

Are you telling us that, worldwide, as many people know, value and wish to send their kids to Al-Azhar as they know, value and wish to send their kids to Oxford and Harvard..?

BTW, Greeks have "invented" the very concept (and practice) of democracy and have had a dictatorship as recently as 30 years ago.

Islam has contributed far more to our understanding of things related to our everyday environment than anything the so called "whites" have contributed.

Probably what you really wanted to say (and still inexact) was "Arabs". This, in and of itself, says it all about the "real history" you are teaching us about here...

Islam has contributed NOTHING to our understanding of things related to our everyday environment from a Western and any other non-Islamic point of view.

"Arabs" have had an edge in maths and other sciences and look where Islam have got them since its inception...

And as I have said before - the middle eastern countries excel in math and sciences. When I was a grad student I had to do three graduate level engineering courses and one was taught by an Indian and the other was taught by an Egpytian. Most of my friends who took sciences in school have had the same experiences.

Are you telling us that today's world's engineering is, in any significant part, of Indian and Egpytian origin?

Are you telling us that today's cutting edge engineering is the fruct of the researches, the studies and the works of Indians, Egyptians and other middle eastern countries?

Besides being taught by an Indian and an Egyptian teacher, have you studied on Indian, Egyptian or other middle eastern engineering books or authored by Indians, Egyptians and other Middle Easterners?

How many of the most impressive feats of modern engineering Indians, Egyptians and other Middle Easterners can claim to be the fathers of?

Second, the german barbarians routed and humiliated the romans - or did you forget that part of history.

Are you alluding to the periodic short-lived military adventures they attempted while being ruled by the Romans for half a millenium?

Their very name, the one you have just used and the one commonly used the world over, is the one the Romans gave them (from the Latin Germanus)...

Were Indians and Egyptians also your history teachers by any chance.....?

True "real history" pearls, shochu, well worth of Al-Azhar I'm sure

Edited April 26, 2007 by BAF

[TokyoT]

Forgive me for doing something that might seem strange from reading this thread and making a post related to the OP.

Seems that Thailand is falling in the polls:

Looking bad in Feb:

http://www.jetro.go.jp/en/news/releases/20070227733-news

And even worse in March:

http://www.jetro.go.jp/en/news/releases/20070328888-news

With that being said IMHO one cannot underestimate the importance of FDI from Japan in Thailand. In recent history Japan accounts for the largest piece of the pie and this trend will probably hold true in the future. I heard last year there was a fairly significant drop in FDI from Japanese firms, and the above polls don’t appear to promising for the future.

As one poster pointed out earlier numbers that might have more significance to this story is what the trend is like for Japanese investment, and therefore where the trend looks to be heading. And the place in line (2nd, 3rd, 4th) matter less I think than the actual amount and how that amount is changing over time (growing or shrinking). Don't really have the time right now to look for or into those numbers.

[Furbie]

A few things about history - the real history.

All I see here are twists and partial truths of the "real history" to suit your ideology.

First, most of the world's most important universities such as Oxford and Harvard still follow the traditions started at Al-Azhar.

Al-Azhar is nowadays just a center (one of the most important indeed) for Islamic studies. It has nothing to do with Oxford and Harvard and you are not seeing foreign students flocking there in droves to learm about economics, social sciences, politics, engineering, maths etc on a world level... or are you?

Are you telling us that, worldwide, as many people know, value and wish to send their kids to Al-Azhar as they know, value and wish to send their kids to Oxford and Harvard..?

BTW, Greeks have "invented" the very concept (and practice) of democracy and have had a dictatorship as recently as 30 years ago.

Islam has contributed far more to our understanding of things related to our everyday environment than anything the so called "whites" have contributed.

Probably what you really wanted to say (and still inexact) was "Arabs". This, in and of itself, says it all about the "real history" you are teaching us about here...

Islam has contributed NOTHING to our understanding of things related to our everyday environment from a Western and any other non-Islamic point of view.

"Arabs" have had an edge in maths and other sciences and look where Islam have got them since its inception...

And as I have said before - the middle eastern countries excel in math and sciences. When I was a grad student I had to do three graduate level engineering courses and one was taught by an Indian and the other was taught by an Egpytian. Most of my friends who took sciences in school have had the same experiences.

Are you telling us that today's world's engineering is, in any significant part, of Indian and Egpytian origin?

Are you telling us that today's cutting edge engineering is the fruct of the researches, the studies and the works of Indians, Egyptians and other middle eastern countries?

Besides being taught by an Indian and an Egyptian teacher, have you studied on Indian, Egyptian or other middle eastern engineering books or authored by Indians, Egyptians and other Middle Easterners?

How many of the most impressive feats of modern engineering Indians, Egyptians and other Middle Easterners can claim to be the fathers of?

Second, the german barbarians routed and humiliated the romans - or did you forget that part of history.

Are you alluding to the periodic short-lived military adventures they attempted while being ruled by the Romans for half a millenium?

Their very name, the one you have just used and the one commonly used the world over, is the one the Romans gave them (from the Latin Germanus)...

Were Indians and Egyptians also your history teachers by any chance.....?

True "real history" pearls, shochu, well worth of Al-Azhar I'm sure

Hey, not fair, the Macedonian-Greeks concurred Egypt before the Romans did. How long were the pharos Greek?

Let's give credit where credit is due - a long, long time ago, the Persians and some around them made some wonderful advances in medicine, math and science. In modern history, I can't really think of anything.

Is it my imagination, or do all the Arabs with means leave their homeland to seek healthcare and attend universities elsewhere? I can recall when they Arab community launched the internet, landed on the moon, invented the radio, the car, the television, air conditioning, the sky scraper...Oh, those were western achievements. Yeah, major contributions. By the by, aren't the foreign construction firms doing wonderful work in Dubai?

[jeebusjones]

Hey, not fair, the Macedonian-Greeks concurred Egypt before the Romans did.

I concur!

[pampal]

A few things about history - the real history.

All I see here are twists and partial truths of the "real history" to suit your ideology.

First, most of the world's most important universities such as Oxford and Harvard still follow the traditions started at Al-Azhar.

Al-Azhar is nowadays just a center (one of the most important indeed) for Islamic studies. It has nothing to do with Oxford and Harvard and you are not seeing foreign students flocking there in droves to learm about economics, social sciences, politics, engineering, maths etc on a world level... or are you?

Are you telling us that, worldwide, as many people know, value and wish to send their kids to Al-Azhar as they know, value and wish to send their kids to Oxford and Harvard..?

BTW, Greeks have "invented" the very concept (and practice) of democracy and have had a dictatorship as recently as 30 years ago.

Islam has contributed far more to our understanding of things related to our everyday environment than anything the so called "whites" have contributed.

Probably what you really wanted to say (and still inexact) was "Arabs". This, in and of itself, says it all about the "real history" you are teaching us about here...

Islam has contributed NOTHING to our understanding of things related to our everyday environment from a Western and any other non-Islamic point of view.

"Arabs" have had an edge in maths and other sciences and look where Islam have got them since its inception...

And as I have said before - the middle eastern countries excel in math and sciences. When I was a grad student I had to do three graduate level engineering courses and one was taught by an Indian and the other was taught by an Egpytian. Most of my friends who took sciences in school have had the same experiences.

Are you telling us that today's world's engineering is, in any significant part, of Indian and Egpytian origin?

Are you telling us that today's cutting edge engineering is the fruct of the researches, the studies and the works of Indians, Egyptians and other middle eastern countries?

Besides being taught by an Indian and an Egyptian teacher, have you studied on Indian, Egyptian or other middle eastern engineering books or authored by Indians, Egyptians and other Middle Easterners?

How many of the most impressive feats of modern engineering Indians, Egyptians and other Middle Easterners can claim to be the fathers of?

Second, the german barbarians routed and humiliated the romans - or did you forget that part of history.

Are you alluding to the periodic short-lived military adventures they attempted while being ruled by the Romans for half a millenium?

Their very name, the one you have just used and the one commonly used the world over, is the one the Romans gave them (from the Latin Germanus)...

Were Indians and Egyptians also your history teachers by any chance.....?

True "real history" pearls, shochu, well worth of Al-Azhar I'm sure

Al Azhar is a university and Islamic Learning Center, my friends Egyptian mother teaches Physics there, but you wouldn't know much about .

When the Egyptians were building the pyramids, what was being built in Europe, maybe fires inside caves, but not much more.

Outside Ahvaz Iran, you can find 3500 year old pyramids, what are the oldest buildings in Europe?

There are vast irrigation works in Iran that date back 3000 years, can you find the same in Europe?

The qanat systems in Iran were transporting water over vast distances in hot deserts with minimal loss, what does Europe have to match that? And no the roman aquaducts are not even in the same league, they lose too much water to seepage and evaporation.

The Chinese have the Great Wall and the Grand Canal, what does Europe or America have that can match that?

Agriculture comes from the middle east, Mesopotamia in particular, and that is not in Europe.

Domestication of animals also comes from the middle east.

That's just a small list, if you would like to know more, all you have to do is ask.

PS:  Oh yeah, even Christianity comes from the middle east.

[BAF]

Let's give credit where credit is due - a long, long time ago, the Persians and some around them made some wonderful advances in medicine, math and science. In modern history, I can't really think of anything.

In fact I wrote that "Arabs" have had an edge in maths and other sciences. Arabs were between inverted commas because amongst them there were also Persians who are not Arabs.

Anyway, the first written forms of simple maths date as back as 1800 a.C. and are due to the Egyptians.

Egyptians and Babylonians have been the ones to advance maths until the Greeks took over in the VI sec. a.C with a fundamental paradigm shift: Egyptians and Babylonians' maths was purely empirical and their use of the numbers was exclusively directed at practical use like misuring and calculating the area of the last Nile's flood while with the Greeks we have the born of the abstract maths based on a logic structure of definitions, axioms and demonstrations. In other words, the modern maths.

The Greeks, later the Romans and after the fall of the Roman Empire again the Greeks, kept advancing it until the Arabs and Persians took over around the 900 d.C. basing their studies on the Greeks' work.

After the XVII sec. and the European Renaissance, Europe took definitely back the lead in maths and science (the lead that the Western world still firmly holds today) while the Arabs, Persians and in general the Muslim nations' cultures withered away practically and largely freezed in the Middle Ages...

[BAF]

Al Azhar is a university and Islamic Learning Center, my friends Egyptian mother teaches Physics there, but you wouldn't know much about .

WHO DOES in the international scientific community?

Is Al-Azhar a center for the teaching of Physics of ANY worldwide relevance?

Agriculture comes from the middle east, Mesopotamia in particular, and that is not in Europe.

Domestication of animals also comes from the middle east.

Asia and the Middle East are much older cultures and civilizations than Europe's so what you write is pure nonsense since it would be akin to credit the Africans for our ability to stand and walk on two legs... First biped hominids were walking there, so "what does the Middle East have that can match that"?

ANYWAY:

When the Egyptians were building the pyramids, what was being built in Europe, maybe fires inside caves, but not much more.

Outside Ahvaz Iran, you can find 3500 year old pyramids, what are the oldest buildings in Europe?

Cnosso's and Festo's kings' palaces (in Greece) are OLDER than those piramids (1700 a.C.), others

are found for example in the island of Creta, there are countless remains of Greek acropolis and temples from 3000 years ago, the Greek Partenone is 2500 years old and the Roman Colosseo is 2000 years old. Rome itself is 2500 years old and Italian cities conquered by Rome are several hundred years older. Vetulonia and Tarquinia cities' walls (in today Toscana, Italy), for example, are 2900 years old.

There are vast irrigation works in Iran that date back 3000 years, can you find the same in Europe?

The qanat systems in Iran were transporting water over vast distances in hot deserts with minimal loss, what does Europe have to match that? And no the roman aquaducts are not even in the same league, they lose too much water to seepage and evaporation.

The oldest Iranian qanat is 2700 years old and is not a "vast irrigation work" is a system of interconnected wells.

Egyptian irrigation systems are older than that and South (Peruvians) and North American ones are almost as old.

Wells and irrigation systems are a thing and sewage systems serving cities (which is what I was talking about) are another...

The Roman Cloaca Massima is 2600 years old. No other city had anything similar and certainly not Iranian ones...

Roman aqueducts were much more sophisticated than Persian qanat and served much more uses than them.

For example, the Ponte del Gard, built by the Romans 2000 years ago is a three levels 275 meters bridge part of the 50 kms long Acquedotto del Gard (the aqueduct is on the 3rd level) which has a carrying capacity of 20000 cubic meters of water per day...

BTW, in 2007 many Iranians have still to rely, 2700 years later, on qanats to get their water for village use...

The Chinese have the Great Wall and the Grand Canal, what does Europe or America have that can match that?

Match by which measure? Extension? Age?

In Europe we have for example the 2000 years old Roman built Vallo di Adriano and Vallo di Antonino, in the UK, but the longest of the two is "just" 120 kms since that was the total sea-to-sea span of the land the Romans intended to partition. Europe's dimensions aren't China's...

That's just a small list, if you would like to know more, all you have to do is ask.

So, since I can ask, how come that the nowadays political, economical and scientific worldwide arena is dominated by that West heir of those Greek and Roman civilizations and NOT anything from those piramids building Egyptians, wells digging Persians and great bricklaying Chinese?

How come the world is today ruled and dominated by Westerners and Western ideas and concepts of Greek and Roman origin and we are not talking Arabic or some Chinese dialect?

Pray tell, pampal, what is of any great worth and significance in the political sciences, economical sciences and scientific fields coming today and in the last half of millenium from Middle Easterners or Asians?

Europe's civilization, the youngest one of all of them, have emerged and took the lead because its ideas, concepts, values and principles are winners. They are... dare I say it... better.

At least, that is, if your personal idea of progress is the same one most nations and most individuals on earth aspire to...

PS: Oh yeah, even Christianity comes from the middle east.

Yeah, from the Roman Middle East, a then province of the Roman Empire...

[longway]

Europe's civilization, the youngest one of all of them, have emerged and took the lead because its ideas, concepts, values and principles are winners. They are... dare I say it... better.

true enough, but european civilisation would not emerged without asian or middle eastern civilizations.

the modern world is dominated and shaped by europe. its wealth is drained from the countries it dominated culturally and economically.

perhaps the pendulum will swing back in the other direction, perhaps it wont.

there are a couple of points i would like to make, even though i love modern creature comforts i enjoy and the advances in health care and the political stability of the west. today more people than ever before are suffering.

what europe brought over to other cultures was not necessarily that good for them, somehow or another they are not winners.

also suppose the end point of all this progress leads to environmental catastrophe, or nuclear or biological armegeddon, whose ideas would be considered winners then?

not necessarily arguing with anyone just wanted to add another dimension to this my dad's better than your dad debate.

what was the subject of this thread again?

[BAF]

perhaps the pendulum will swing back in the other direction, perhaps it wont.

I would LOVE to see it.

I would love to see any other culture than the Western one ruling the world. Middle Easterners, Chinese, Indians, Africans... take your pick.

That would put a nice end to much of the crap spilt daily on the worldwide media (not to talk about the revolting Western PCness) and of which your and others' posts in this thread are a good example.

I am sure you, pampal and shochu would enjoy greatly a world working on Middle Eastern/Chinese/Indian/African values and principles and shaped on Middle Eastern/Chinese/Indian/African societies...

Edited April 26, 2007 by BAF

[longway]

perhaps the pendulum will swing back in the other direction, perhaps it wont.

I would LOVE to see it.

I would love to see any other culture than the Western one ruling the world. Middle Easterners, Chinese, Indians, Africans... take your pick.

That would put a nice end to much of the crap spilt daily on the worldwide media (not to talk about the revolting Western PCness) and of which your and others' posts in this thread are a good example.

I am sure you, pampal and shochu would enjoy greatly a world working on Middle Eastern/Chinese/Indian/African values and principles and shaped on Middle Eastern/Chinese/Indian/African societies...

ah well who cares.... its not what i was trying to say, not that it matters anyway.

[cdnvic]

What does all this Romans vs Arabs stuff have to do with the subject anyway?

[pampal]

Al Azhar is a university and Islamic Learning Center, my friends Egyptian mother teaches Physics there, but you wouldn't know much about .

WHO DOES in the international scientific community?

Is Al-Azhar a center for the teaching of Physics of ANY worldwide relevance?

Does it matter if it's of Worldwide Relevance, you claimed in your earlier post that it was  only a center of Islamice Learning, and you are wrong because it's also a university.

Agriculture comes from the middle east, Mesopotamia in particular, and that is not in Europe.

Domestication of animals also comes from the middle east.

Asia and the Middle East are much older cultures and civilizations than Europe's so what you write is pure nonsense since it would be akin to credit the Africans for our ability to stand and walk on two legs... First biped hominids were walking there, so "what does the Middle East have that can match that"?

 Domestication of plants and animals is what allowed humanity to grow from small villages into big cities and the codification of laws(Hammurabi's Code), which allowed Empires to grow.Why don't you point out to us what laws existed in Europe 2500 years ago.you claimed that nothing of value came from the Middle East and again you are wrong, and no evolution and the ability to domesticate animals and plants are not the same thing. So again your analogy is wrong.

ANYWAY:

When the Egyptians were building the pyramids, what was being built in Europe, maybe fires inside caves, but not much more.

Outside Ahvaz Iran, you can find 3500 year old pyramids, what are the oldest buildings in Europe?

Cnosso's and Festo's kings' palaces (in Greece) are OLDER than those piramids (1700 a.C.), others

are found for example in the island of Creta, there are countless remains of Greek acropolis and temples from 3000 years ago, the Greek Partenone is 2500 years old and the Roman Colosseo is 2000 years old. Rome itself is 2500 years old and Italian cities conquered by Rome are several hundred years older. Vetulonia and Tarquinia cities' walls (in today Toscana, Italy), for example, are 2900 years old.

Wow you are really on a roll, the oldest pyramids date from 4500 years ago, the buildings you mention came 1500 years later.  The buildings in Crete and the Parthenon and the Roman buildings put together don't come anywhere near the engineering and difficulty of building the pyramids. The buildings you mention are miniscule compared to the engineering done in the middle east and africa at the time.

There are vast irrigation works in Iran that date back 3000 years, can you find the same in Europe?

The qanat systems in Iran were transporting water over vast distances in hot deserts with minimal loss, what does Europe have to match that? And no the roman aquaducts are not even in the same league, they lose too much water to seepage and evaporation.

The oldest Iranian qanat is 2700 years old and is not a "vast irrigation work" is a system of interconnected wells.

Egyptian irrigation systems are older than that and South (Peruvians) and North American ones are almost as old.

Wells and irrigation systems are a thing and sewage systems serving cities (which is what I was talking about) are another...

The Roman Cloaca Massima is 2600 years old. No other city had anything similar and certainly not Iranian ones...

Roman aqueducts were much more sophisticated than Persian qanat and served much more uses than them.

For example, the Ponte del Gard, built by the Romans 2000 years ago is a three levels 275 meters bridge part of the 50 kms long Acquedotto del Gard (the aqueduct is on the 3rd level) which has a carrying capacity of 20000 cubic meters of water per day...

BTW, in 2007 many Iranians have still to rely, 2700 years later, on qanats to get their water for village use...

Qanats  transport water from the mountains to the deserts, and the longest ones are over 500 kms long. And if they use them even today, that tells you how well they are built and is only a testament to their longetivity . That's good engineering in my book. How many Roman aquaducts are still serving today, not many-if any at all, they were not covered like qanats, so they are prone to seepage,evaporation and pollution, not good engineering, is it?

The Chinese have the Great Wall and the Grand Canal, what does Europe or America have that can match that?

Match by which measure? Extension? Age?

In Europe we have for example the 2000 years old Roman built Vallo di Adriano and Vallo di Antonino, in the UK, but the longest of the two is "just" 120 kms since that was the total sea-to-sea span of the land the Romans intended to partition. Europe's dimensions aren't China's...

The Roman Empire was large, and all they wanted to partition is a 120 km part. You say Europe's dimensions aren't Chinas'.  But the truth is that the Roman Empire was bigger than just a part of Europe, it included parts of Africa and Asia Minor. So the Roman Empire was nearly as large as China. Again you are wrong.

That's just a small list, if you would like to know more, all you have to do is ask.

So, since I can ask, how come that the nowadays political, economical and scientific worldwide arena is dominated by that West heir of those Greek and Roman civilizations and NOT anything from those piramids building Egyptians, wells digging Persians and great bricklaying Chinese?

How come the world is today ruled and dominated by Westerners and Western ideas and concepts of Greek and Roman origin and we are not talking Arabic or some Chinese dialect?

Pray tell, pampal, what is of any great worth and significance in the political sciences, economical sciences and scientific fields coming today and in the last half of millenium from Middle Easterners or Asians?

Europe's civilization, the youngest one of all of them, have emerged and took the lead because its ideas, concepts, values and principles are winners. They are... dare I say it... better.

At least, that is, if your personal idea of progress is the same one most nations and most individuals on earth aspire to..

This one is easy, the world is cyclical just like the weather. Poles change, the seas rise and fall, it's all cycle. What goes around comes around, Ask yourself when has the world been static?

Never and that's what happens with power, The Sumerians, The Persians, The Romans, The Greeks, The Arabs, The Ottomans, The British Empire. It's all a cycle, maybe it will be the Indians or Chinese next, who knows, but the truth is that everything changes with time.

PS: Oh yeah, even Christianity comes from the middle east.

Yeah, from the Roman Middle East, a then province of the Roman Empire...

Again, Jesus spoke Aramaic(middle eastern language), not Latin, that tells you his heritage and it wasn't Roman. Christianity comes from an area that was a province of the Romans, but before it had been a province of the Persians, and before that, the Babylonians and before that the Egyptians and before that the Phoenicians. And btw, the Romans were quick to pull him on a cross, so they weren't exactly supportive of Christianity, in fact they became Christians 400 years later, after having killed and fed many Christians to the lions.

Completely off topic I know

[ovenman]

Any chance ThaiGoon could get an early reprieve from his vacation in the vain hope of getting this thread heading back in the direction of Japanese investment in Thailand?

[shochu]

BAF,

Thats more like it - as I am getting tired of doing most of the lifting, I try to not say as much as necessary any more now and hope others will question things a bit more and try to look things up on their own. This is getting more like a discourse that can possibly enlighten us a bit more, although you did not read into what I was trying to say as much as I would have liked.

Al Azhar started a tradition that is the foundation of inquiry of most of the leading systems of higher learning, so without this start, we may not have had the empirical guidance to get to where we are now.

I used the term islam in a way to empahsize the point more, since more people will associate this with the current trend in thinking of us against them. As others have stated, the fertile crescent along with a few other places on earth such as china were where the production of food began. Without this ability, there never would have been time for people to start inventing and studying things. And, as I have stated in other discussions, all inventions were a product of things BORROWED from one place to another. Other nations were far more superior to and more advanced than the current western nations based on chrisitianity at the time. The difference was, that christianity was used as a way for nations to sanction their attrocious acts of genocide, slavery, and wealth transfer. Yes, Islam aslo did this, but not to the degree the western nations did. If they did anything, it was really in reaction to the church and their vassal states in their pogroms against people of other beliefs, and a way for the church to have a far reaching domain really for the subjugation of all people under their system. The chinese, on the other hand unified the area of current china and really were a trading nation with the islamic nations and really living more or less at peace with other peoples. They did not try to conquer and invade like the western nations have and create colonies to be raped and pillaged for their wealth. There has been trade happening between the various nations in asia for thouands of years - well before marco polo or the europeran nations supposed found them.

And most people in s.e. asia are of southern chinese descent. There were successive waves of people which began a few thousand years ago and as recently as in the past century. This is why some thais's look more thai and some thai's look more chinese - just a product of having been either recent or older residents of the region. There were really four chinese sub groups of which one is the where most of present day chinese fall under, and the other three - the hmong, austroasiatic (vietnamese and cambodian), tai-kadai (thai. laos), and austronesian (of which philippines, malay, indonesia, etc. )fall under. They have completely replaced the original inhabitants of tribes who arrived over 40,000 years ago - except for a few settlements of remaining pockets such as the malay negrito, new guinea, etc.

The reason I mentioned the wealth of math and science superiority is really if you go to any major uni in the western world, there is a large number of students from asia, and the numbers would be greater if not for the quotas. Their basic rote learning in these areas ensures they have a superior edge over western kids. And, I would like to add that many european countries also excel in these areas, whereas the north american schools lag far behind. This is why when some western students study in europe, in engineering they sometimes come back having failed. Western companies doing business in the middle east has nothing to do with superior ability - it is not because of any advantage in the sciences or work. Yes, they have had a head start, but if you understand the construction industry, it is really about who you know and this is what national gov'ts do for their co's - they try to make sure they get contracts. Why else would halliburton be in iraq, and many of the western co's are there because of their relationships - this is the way business works and always has. Of course there is some merit based work - but not as much as one would like to think. GEE, last time I looked, there were an awful lot of korean and japanese co's working in the middle east. And money talks, the better to grease the palms with.

There is no doubt that the western nations now lead in technology- but think about this - many western country's are immigrant nations with a huge exchange of ideas. As stated earlier, it is this exchange of ideas that is where technolgy advances. And i believe the immigrant population in many of the western countries have a large impact on any new developments in the sciences and technology. Look up any major tech company and see who the co's leaders are.

America is only superior now because they had the resources of great japanese and german minds to use as their own after the war. But even more important than all this is these western countries had huge head starts through war, slavery, colonization, wealth transfer and many other reasons - but most importantly one reason which I will not state - but you can try to figure out - and this common denominator is the only real reason left today why these wealthy advanced nations are in the lead. CAN you tell me this reason? Once this common denominator is relinquished - and it will happen - then the western dominance will subside and a new region will rise. As I have said before, it is a fallacy to think any one nation or people are superior - but it is a product of environment and as importantly - about policy. Unfortunately, the stronger control a gov't has on its people, the better the policy and ultimately the better abilty to compete. This is why you see a countries like korea and japan excel. Both these countries have a democratic gov't but really it is still more like a military gov' with a few very powerful elite that still control everything - no matter how it looks, as do the leading western nations - no matter how democratic you think they are. A country without strong leadership - will fail. And no I am not promoting military control - I believe I have a basic understanding of people and how civilizations work.

NOW having said all this - AGAIN - I submit that LOS has the possibility with strong leadership to move ahead irregardless of the recent hiccups because of fundamental strengths - which I will not outline - but if you do the work you should be able to figure them out.

I don;t know if I have covered everything but I have limited time.

And, BAF, the only reason - as stated by someone else - the romans had any civilization was because they inherited it from the greeks!

and, the barbarians did beat the more advanced and civilized romans.

Edited April 27, 2007 by shochu

[sriracha john]

Any chance ThaiGoon could get an early reprieve from his vacation in the vain hope of getting this thread heading back in the direction of Japanese investment in Thailand?

BAF,

Thats more like it - as I am getting tired of doing most of the lifting, I try to not say as much as necessary any more now and hope others will question things a bit more and try to look things up on their own. This is getting more like a discourse that can possibly enlighten us a bit more, although you did not read into what I was trying to say as much as I would have liked.

Al Azhar started a tradition that is the foundation of inquiry of most of the leading systems of higher learning, so without this start, we may not have had the empirical guidance to get to where we are now.

I used the term islam in a way to empahsize the point more, since more people will associate this with the current trend in thinking of us against them. As others have stated, the fertile crescent along with a few other places on earth such as china were where the production of food began. Without this ability, there never would have been time for people to start inventing and studying things. And, as I have stated in other discussions, all inventions were a product of things BORROWED from one place to another. Other nations were far more superior to and more advanced than the current western nations based on chrisitianity at the time. The difference was, that christianity was used as a way for nations to sanction their attrocious acts of genocide, slavery, and wealth transfer. Yes, Islam aslo did this, but not to the degree the western nations did. If they did anything, it was really in reaction to the church and their vassal states in their pogroms against people of other beliefs, and a way for the church to have a far reaching domain really for the subjugation of all people under their system. The chinese, on the other hand unified the area of current china and really were a trading nation with the islamic nations and really living more or less at peace with other peoples. They did not try to conquer and invade like the western nations have and create colonies to be raped and pillaged for their wealth. There has been trade happening between the various nations in asia for thouands of years - well before marco polo or the europeran nations supposed found them.

And most people in s.e. asia are of southern chinese descent. There were successive waves of people which began a few thousand years ago and as recently as in the past century. This is why some thais's look more thai and some thai's look more chinese - just a product of having been either recent or older residents of the region. There were really four chinese sub groups of which one is the where most of present day chinese fall under, and the other three - the hmong, austroasiatic (vietnamese and cambodian), tai-kadai (thai. laos), and austronesian (of which philippines, malay, indonesia, etc. )fall under. They have completely replaced the original inhabitants of tribes who arrived over 40,000 years ago - except for a few settlements of remaining pockets such as the malay negrito, new guinea, etc.

The reason I mentioned the wealth of math and science superiority is really if you go to any major uni in the western world, there is a large number of students from asia, and the numbers would be greater if not for the quotas. Their basic rote learning in these areas ensures they have a superior edge over western kids. And, I would like to add that many european countries also excel in these areas, whereas the north american schools lag far behind. This is why when some western students study in europe, in engineering they sometimes come back having failed. Western companies doing business in the middle east has nothing to do with superior ability - it is not because of any advantage in the sciences or work. Yes, they have had a head start, but if you understand the construction industry, it is really about who you know and this is what national gov'ts do for their co's - they try to make sure they get contracts. Why else would halliburton be in iraq, and many of the western co's are there because of their relationships - this is the way business works and always has. Of course there is some merit based work - but not as much as one would like to think. GEE, last time I looked, there were an awful lot of korean and japanese co's working in the middle east. And money talks, the better to grease the palms with.

There is no doubt that the western nations now lead in technology- but think about this - many western country's are immigrant nations with a huge exchange of ideas. As stated earlier, it is this exchange of ideas that is where technolgy advances. And i believe the immigrant population in many of the western countries have a large impact on any new developments in the sciences and technology. Look up any major tech company and see who the co's leaders are.

America is only superior now because they had the resources of great japanese and german minds to use as their own after the war. But even more important than all this is these western countries had huge head starts through war, slavery, colonization, wealth transfer and many other reasons - but most importantly one reason which I will not state - but you can try to figure out - and this common denominator is the only real reason left today why these wealthy advanced nations are in the lead. CAN you tell me this reason? Once this common denominator is relinquished - and it will happen - then the western dominance will subside and a new region will rise. As I have said before, it is a fallacy to think any one nation or people are superior - but it is a product of environment and as importantly - about policy. Unfortunately, the stronger control a gov't has on its people, the better the policy and ultimately the better abilty to compete. This is why you see a countries like korea and japan excel. Both these countries have a democratic gov't but really it is still more like a military gov' with a few very powerful elite that still control everything - no matter how it looks, as do the leading western nations - no matter how democratic you think they are. A country without strong leadership - will fail. And no I am not promoting military control - I believe I have a basic understanding of people and how civilizations work.

NOW having said all this - AGAIN - I submit that LOS has the possibility with strong leadership to move ahead irregardless of the recent hiccups because of fundamental strengths - which I will not outline - but if you do the work you should be able to figure them out.

I don;t know if I have covered everything but I have limited time.

And, BAF, the only reason - as stated by someone else - the romans had any civilization was because they inherited it from the greeks!

and, the barbarians did beat the more advanced and civilized romans.

I guess not, ovenman... so it's back to Mesopotamiavisa.com with this thread

[BAF]

Does it matter if it's of Worldwide Relevance, you claimed in your earlier post that it was  only a center of Islamice Learning, and you are wrong because it's also a university.

I wasn't clear enough, probably.

I didn't write that it's ONLY a center for Islamic studies. I did write that "you are not seeing foreign students flocking there in droves to learm about economics, social sciences, politics, engineering, maths etc on a world level"

I also added "Are you telling us that, worldwide, as many people know, value and wish to send their kids to Al-Azhar as they know, value and wish to send their kids to Oxford and Harvard..?" which implied that more than Islamic studies were offered in Al-Azhar otherwide they couldn't be an alternative to Oxford and Harvard.

So, at the end of the day, you are confirming that they are nowadays just an unknown university (apart to Islamic students of Islamic matters) with no relevance on the world scene (that was my point).

How many in the West, in Asia and in Africa know of and aspire to go to Al-Azhar? How many in the West, in Asia, in Africa and in the Middle East know of and aspire to go to Oxford and Harvard?

 Domestication of plants and animals is what allowed humanity to grow from small villages into big cities and the codification of laws(Hammurabi's Code), which allowed Empires to grow.Why don't you point out to us what laws existed in Europe 2500 years ago.you claimed that nothing of value came from the Middle East and again you are wrong, and no evolution and the ability to domesticate animals and plants are not the same thing. So again your analogy is wrong.

You can't read or again I wasn't clear enough.

Let's see if you get it: "when the first biped hominids were walking in Africa, what did the Middle East have that can match that"?

Wow you are really on a roll, the oldest pyramids date from 4500 years ago, the buildings you mention came 1500 years later.  The buildings in Crete and the Parthenon and the Roman buildings put together don't come anywhere near the engineering and difficulty of building the pyramids. The buildings you mention are miniscule compared to the engineering done in the middle east and africa at the time.

I wrote "...OLDER than those piramids..." Those = the piramids in Iran you just mentioned.

It seems you really can't read.

Regarding the engineering and difficulty of building the pyramids and the fact that "the buildings I mention are miniscule compared to the engineering done in the middle east and africa at the time" you have clearly no clue of the dimensions of the piramids and, for example, the Greek Partenone and the Roman Colosseo: the biggest piramid (the piramid of Cheope) has a square base with a side of 230 m and a height of 147 m. All the other piramids are smaller than this and most are MUCH smaller than this.

The Colosseo is an amphitheater of 188 m x 156 m x 56 m and could seat 50000 spectators and I don't think you have the competence to judge the engineering complexity of the theaters, amphitheaters, bridges, aqueducts, circuses, basilicas, thermae, temples, roads and cities the Romans were building around the world 2000 years ago (and many of which still stand today)...

Qanats  transport water from the mountains to the deserts, and the longest ones are over 500 kms long. And if they use them even today, that tells you how well they are built and is only a testament to their longetivity . That's good engineering in my book. How many Roman aquaducts are still serving today, not many-if any at all, they were not covered like qanats, so they are prone to seepage,evaporation and pollution, not good engineering, is it?

Roman aqueducts are not being used today because most parts of the ex-Roman Empire are today 1st world developed countries with modern, state of the art (we are in the year 2007) facilities...

But many still stand today and can be admired all around the world as artistic works (look at the ones in Tunisia and Turkey and Israel).

And, the vast majority of Roman aqueducts are closed and/or closed and underground (they built aqueducts also in Africa and in the Middle East), you have clearly no idea how complex and how different they are from Persian qanats.

Rome alone was served by a network of about 500 kms of aqueducts which provided fresh water and drained the waste of a population of 1 million people...

Should I post a picture of the Iranian system of holes in the ground and of the Roman engineering works which resemble today's aqueducts (but are artistically much superior)..?

The Roman Empire was large, and all they wanted to partition is a 120 km part. You say Europe's dimensions aren't Chinas'.  But the truth is that the Roman Empire was bigger than just a part of Europe, it included parts of Africa and Asia Minor. So the Roman Empire was nearly as large as China. Again you are wrong.

In fact it was probably bigger, it spanned over 3 continents but it was not what I meant, of course.

It didn't consisted of a single "chunk" of land mass like China so the Romans had no need nor possibility to phisically mark the endless boarders of their vast empire especially since the Great Wall was a defensive structure (like the Vallo of Antonino and Vallo of Adriano, hence the comparison) while the Roman Empire had an expansive and trading drive.

This one is easy, the world is cyclical just like the weather. Poles change, the seas rise and fall, it's all cycle. What goes around comes around, Ask yourself when has the world been static?

Never and that's what happens with power, The Sumerians, The Persians, The Romans, The Greeks, The Arabs, The Ottomans, The British Empire. It's all a cycle, maybe it will be the Indians or Chinese next, who knows, but the truth is that everything changes with time.

Every change has had its reason, pampal, jus like Poles shifts and tides. Besides, cyclic means that they take turns at being in power and we will again have "The Sumerians, The Persians, The Romans, The Greeks, The Arabs, The Ottomans and The British Empire" and I don't think so...

Again, Jesus spoke Aramaic(middle eastern language), not Latin, that tells you his heritage and it wasn't Roman. Christianity comes from an area that was a province of the Romans, but before it had been a province of the Persians, and before that, the Babylonians and before that the Egyptians and before that the Phoenicians. And btw, the Romans were quick to pull him on a cross, so they weren't exactly supportive of Christianity, in fact they became Christians 400 years later, after having killed and fed many Christians to the lions.

Jesus was a Roman "citizen" born in a province of the Roman Empire whose "legal" language was, like everywhere else in the empire, the Latin. He didn't even ever question his citizenship nor tried to put himself over such issues: "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar".

And most importantly, he himself told (ever read the Vangels?) his most important disciple, Pietro (the one who has "the keys of Paradise"), to go to the capital of the empire, Roma, and "found there His church".

Ever wondered why the Vatican is in Italy?

(nothing to be proud of anyway... )

[shochu]

And on the subject of medicine, that someone brought up,

What I have found - is that western medicine does not treat the cause - but only the symptoms, whereas asian medicine treats the root cause. I have also found the whole western (especially the american) medicine is a large industry made for plucking the money from our pockets. Start with the way the U.S. flouridates their drinking water - a chemical compound that was used during the war to pacify prisoners - and they tell us this is good for our teeth and bones. Over- flouridated people's bones crack and disintegrate. The whole industry along with the FDA, WHO, and many of these other organizations are really trying to , or should I say letting us, get sick so we will have to be treated. We are like the cattle raised on farms to be milked for profit. AND they perform unnecessary operations to maximize profit which will make us feel better now - but shortens our life in the long run and takes a nice chunk out of our savings.

In the U.S., the richest nation, among anyone who has coverage, if a family member gets sick, with a treatment not covered, the family will go bankrupt. Can't imagine what happens to those not covered - a slow death for the tens of millions without health care. The U.S. is ranked (i think 30th) behind even Columbia. In LOS, lets not forget still a developing nation, everyone can get medical attention for 30 baht. And they have a pretty ###### good medical system in place. Got to love this.

Sure the U.S. has some amazing technolgy in this area - but is it really necessary. There is new research coming out now saying that cancer is a product of our PH levels being off and other conditions related to our environment (read - processed foods and chemicals) and that all the cancer treatments being used by western hospitals is really bunk.

And you have to love LOS for telling the Phama giants to shove it and going ahead with cheap generic drugs.

All the food (in the U.S.) is irradiated so that all the important components are rendered useless. They tell us it is for our protection. It helps to think this way when we read of contaminated food all the time in the papers.

There was a study i read where someone had two plants - one which he used bottled water to water plant 1 - and, two where he used tap water microwaved to water plant 2. Conclusion, the latter (plant 2) plant died after a short time. I don;t own a microwave - maybe someone would like to try this experiment.

LOS has fresh fruit, and fresh food using fresh vegetables and the greatest source of vitamin D (the sun) and plenty of it. A strong immune system is the only way to a healthy life. Whenever I go to LOS I leave feeling great and extremely healthy.

Ya, I know there's polution - but hey we can;t win them all.

I have not been to a doctor in years, not even a cold.

I only eat fresh food, no processed foods, and fruits every morning

AND one day when I get sick I will give asian medicine a try! The people arond me all say it's great!

HOW does this all relate to the topic - it's all about the conditions that make LOS a great investment!

Edited April 27, 2007 by shochu