Settlement Visa Rejected

[Boothy]

My other half has just come out of the British Embassy sobbing after the way she was disregared at the British Embassy and I am too calm to be livid.

We have had our application for settlement rejected on so many spurious bases that the word erroneous can only go so far as to explain what kind of service my hard earned 300 sterling has just been wasted on.

Any pointers as to where I should go next would be of great help, to put you in the picture I'll draw your attention to the 'reasons' for our rejection.

The notice of Immigration Decision reads: I am not satisfied your application meets the requirements that; you cannot be adequetly maintained without taking employment until the date you marry (how would my girlfriend be able to seek employment when she can't even speak English and is 3 months pregnant?) and you cannot be adequetly maintained without seeking recourse to public funds following your marriage and be accomadated in accomodation which you or your partner occupy exclusively.

The first line of the because part reads; you have submitted a letter that you claim is an offer of employment from ****** ********* for your fiance. However I am not satisfied the letter is genuine, it is typed on plain white paper and there is no company logo.

The correspondence referred to is a printed email from my ex-boss asking me to pop in for a chat when I get home, I did not claim it was a letter of an offer of employment but stated it could be construed tacitly that I would have no problem finding employment immediately when I got home. The Embassy's rejection does no less than state that I am a liar and fraudster. I thought that any documents had to be taken in utmost good faith, am I wrong? If they emailed the writer surely this point could be proved/disproved.

Furthermore the Embassy wrote I am not satisfied that if this insurance (potential employer) company is registered and trading in the UK as claimed (surely a google search could clear that one up) the paper would be on letter head type... again this is a print of an email. I also note the letter is in pristine condition and has never been folded. It's a print of an email and whether it has been folded or not is inconsequential.

You have failed to submit any evidence of the claimed financial support, I enclosed a letter from my Dad explaining he would provide further support. Together with original bank accounts with a sum of 2000 pounds, Is this not evidence?

You state that your fiances mother (no apostrophe) will accomodate you in the UK. I note you have submitted a document detailing that there was a joint ownership of a property. However as his parents no longer live together I am not satisfied as to who owns this house and furthermore you have not submitted any details in the form of an official report etc. etc.

So now I am being penalised because my parents seperated 10 years ago, and if they have both written confirming their support (father financial and mother accomodation) isn't it inconsequential as to who owns the house, I proved the mortgage has been paid off.

I have a job waiting for me when I get home, and I have 2000 in the bank, I will probably earn 17000 PA if I decide to work for my old employers, meaning after the cost of the flights (British Embassy quote 1000 pounds for this) I would still have about the same (if not more) than I would earn each month.

Finally my girlfriend was asked a number of highly inappropriate questions in the interview; Have you ever had a Western boyfriend before? What happened when we got back to my place after the first time we met? Why can't you marry in Thailand?

When my girlfriend explained that she is Laotion and their laws regarding allowing citizens permission to marry aren't straight forward like they are in Thailand all the interviewer did was ask 'why not' and then dismissed my girlfriend's claim.

My girlfriend was also instructed to look at the interviewer when answering not the translator, naturally she looked at the translator because she was speaking the same language.

I have put together a realistic claim with (as far as I can see) enough documentary evidence, I understand that the onus rests on me to satisfy the ECO etc. etc. but without dragging all the people involved into a room and showing the ECO face to face who they are and what they say I can't really see as I can do a lot more than what I have done.

Can anybody profer any advice?

Edited April 25, 2007 by Boothy

[markr]

I cant offer any advice Boothy, I can imagine how you feel, I wish you the best of luck...

You'll get there eventually

Mark

[the scouser]

Hi Boothy,

Firstly, you must appeal. Your fiancée should have been given the appeal form when refused the visa and this has to be returned within 28 days, although I'd fax it directly to the AIT in Loughborough and their number is on the form. In the section where it asks for grounds of appeal, state the reasons why you think the decision is wrong, although you don't need to be too specific as, if needs be, you can make a stronger case at the appeal hearing itself. The down side is that any appeal is likely to take up to 6 months to be heard.

In the interim, you should write to both the Entry Clearance Manager and, if that fails, UK Visas, stating that the decision is fundamentally flawed, explaining why, and ask that the decision to refuse your fiancée a visa be overturned. This again is not necessarily going to get a quick result, but, at this stage, nothing that you do will get the decision overturned within a matter of days.

The second option is to re-apply but visa fees have now gone up and the cost of the application will be £500.00.

Whichever course you take, I would seriously consider getting your fiancée legal representation. I am not touting for business, however, and any UK-based immigration solicitor or adviser should be of assistance.

All the best,

Scouse.

[Boothy]

Our baby is due in 6 months, if we don't get the visa sorted out within at least 4 months how can we legitimise our child and ensure his/her citizenship? There's no point marrying in Thailand because the Laos governent won't recognise the marriage without granting permission and they won't grant it now because she's starting to show she's pregnant.

This decision is a joke? Is there any way we can speed the process up due to our very specific reasons?

[the scouser]

You don't need to worry too much about legitimising your child's birth; if you're British "otherwise than by descent" and are unmarried at the time of birth, s/he will still automatically be British if you are named on the birth certificate as being the father.

That your fiancée is pregnant won't speed up the appeals process, but, evidently, it is a major factor and is deserving of representations to the ECM/UK Visas on this fact alone. In addition to the usual duress that accompanies a visa application is the additional stress and strain for your fiancée of being pregnant.

Scouse.

[Mahout Angrit]

I guess you dont want sympathy but advice. I was one who, in your post where you announced your intention to apply for a fiancee visa told you it wouldn't be a walk in the park to get a visa and to be honest I think your application has been weak.

You refer frequently to the email from your former employer as being genuine, You know it is but we all know it is not difficult for you yourself to set up an address and send that offer, so what would it prove if the ECO send an email to the address to confirm the contents?

You say your Dad showed a bank account containing £2000 to support your family until you found a job. Does your Dad work does he have an income. Do you know how long £2000 would last if you had to pay rent and support a family without an income? Was he prepared to give you that £2000? was that his only bank account?

An email inviting you for a chat is not a guarantte of a job earning £17000 per annum

The accomodation arrangements involving your mum & dad and ownership of the property is confusing to me also.

As you say the onus is on you to prove your circumstances to the ECO and to be honest you haven't done that to me here.

My opinion if the evidence that you have submitted here is the same as that you presented to the embassy then your appeal could well be rejected also.

The best advice I can give you is to address the points raised by the refusal notice and re-apply. Yes it's another £500 which you may lose again but an appeal will put your life on hold for at least 6 months or you could decide to settle in Thailand a bit longer and re-apply later.

Good luck

[erikr_]

I think Scouse gave you the best advise though I can see the reason for the doubts regarding job and accommodation.

I have the feeling the eco in your wifes interview was a smaller woman with darker skin (based on the questions asked regarding relationship to westerners and why not marry locally. Have heard several complaints about one specific eco asking questions that could even be described as racial. One example was an applicant asked why she wanted to marry a falang when there are enough nice thai man in Thailand, asking for racial preference is a big no no)

Do you already have the interview transcript? look for the translator used and the ECO, they do not give full names but her initials are SC I believe (would have to look up the reports at the office). If you not already have this make sure your gf sends a statement that they can send it to you and you can see where she answered wrong.

Have seen about a dozen interviews in the last 3 months and they were all shocking. And have to say that specific ECO comes around often.

But the main complaint from all is that the ECM Mrs Howard is unreachable and hiding from her responsibilities, covering for each others mistakes, still using first intention and creating their own definitions and regulations even where requirements are black on white in IDI or DSP.

Did you actually know that according to DSP best practice in case of commercial outsourcement the embassy is not allowed to refuse to accept your application if you want to apply directly at the embassy?

straight from chapter 3.6

Posts must continue to have facilities to accept applications directly from the

public as a contingency in the event of the Commercial Partner being unable to

offer a service and also in order to process urgent applications. There is also

currently a legal requirement that we accept applications direct from applicants

where they insist upon this.

Just one of the many regulations that Bangkok feels does not apply to them. No wonder with an ECM that does not do her job properly.

[Boothy]

Thanks for all your help on this so far, for which I am very grateful, as I am reading through your posts I am making ground.

I specifically wonder where Mahout Angrit derives 'You say your Dad showed a bank account containing £2000 to support your family until you found a job. Does your Dad work does he have an income. Do you know how long £2000 would last if you had to pay rent and support a family without an income? Was he prepared to give you that £2000? was that his only bank account?'

I wrote: I enclosed a letter from my Dad explaining he would provide further support. Together with original bank accounts with a sum of 2000 pounds, Is this not evidence? The bank accounts are mine not my Dad's my Dad wrote he would give further financial support.

After we applied we received an invitation for my other half to attend an interview, with this invitation the Embassy asked me to confirm my salary when I worked in England and confirm how money had been put into my account since I'd been in Thailand. I obtained another letter from my ex employer (albeit by email with no headed paper which I have come to learn to my misfortune was a big mistake) and my pay slips which are real and can no way be falsified. If this company I worked for and am in correspondence with are not real how can I produce real payslips in my name for the dates I say I worked for them?

Furthermore if the documents I provided were considered to be suspicious in any nature why didn't the Embassy request original documentation from my ex employer when they requested confirmation of my salary. Why didn't they ask for further clarification of whatever they needed to prove my parents own the house, albeit only one of them occupies it?

The reasons they have rejected the case are all to do with information they had before the interview, there was no need to call my girlfriend in and ask questions that on occasion bordered on racism (have you ever had a farang boyfriend? or keui mee fen farang mai? as my girlfriend heard it, would they ask this of a Kenyan or Peruvian?). This is the point I am at a loss to understand. There was no need for the interview on the basis of their rejection.

To not request original documentation when they requested the other two items to support the claim, is to not notify me that the claim is corrupt and is therefore completely misleading.

Despite my raising original payslips from that company they have still been disregarded.

An email and a phone call could have put this right, if I would have been in the interview I could have explained this and they could have checked it's not much to ask them after spending 300 pounds on the matter. The way our case has been treated is negligent. It's as if the person who first prepared my case and asked for further information had a completely different idea as to how to deal with it than who made the final decision.

The Scouser, thank you for your advice once again, would this mean that the British Embassy would issue my child with a British Passport if the child is born in Thailand with my name on the Birth Certicate? Or as I expect is it not as simple as that?

Erikr the description of the interviewer you describe is spot on, the two questions that upset the most where the one I mention above and 'after we met and she came back to my place what happened next?' In a professional and crucial environment involving a pregnant lady's future this line of questioning from an official representing the British Government is far from acceptable. Any help on this issue will be well received.

Thanks for your time.

Edited April 26, 2007 by Boothy

[the scouser]

The Scouser, thank you for your advice once again, would this mean that the British Embassy would issue my child with a British Passport if the child is born in Thailand with my name on the Birth Certicate? Or as I expect is it not as simple as that?

Providing that you are British "otherwise than by descent", and you are named as being the father on the Thai birth certificate, the British embassy in Bangkok will issue your child with both a British birth certificate and a British passport. See here for more details.

Whilst I do sympathise with your plight, the onus is on the applicant to demonstrate that they qualify for the visa, and the visa officer is not obliged to do any running round verifying employment records etc. Likewise, to have your father act as a back up sponsor is fine, but he should demonstrate his ability to fulfil this obligation, if called upon. Consequently, his bank statements/evidence of his income should have been submitted with your fiancée's application.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[Mahout Angrit]

I specifically wonder where Mahout Angrit derives 'You say your Dad showed a bank account containing £2000 to support your family until you found a job. Does your Dad work does he have an income. Do you know how long £2000 would last if you had to pay rent and support a family without an income? Was he prepared to give you that £2000? was that his only bank account?'

I wrote: I enclosed a letter from my Dad explaining he would provide further support. Together with original bank accounts with a sum of 2000 pounds, Is this not evidence? The bank accounts are mine not my Dad's my Dad wrote he would give further financial support.

Quite simply, what you have written in your original post (emphasised in bold by me) I think if you re-read it it is not obvious from that alone that the bank account is yours.

I think most members here would agree that the questions your g/f faced are inappropriate but do you want to prove that the ECO is asking inappropriate questions or do you want your g/f to get a settlement visa for the UK?

You may be successful in embarrasing an ECO but it doesn't mean that your g/f would then be given the visa.

In a professional and crucial environment involving a pregnant lady's future this line of questioning from an official representing the British Government is far from acceptable.

I have agreed that the questioning is unacceptable but the condition of your g/f is hardly the fault of the British Government and you should accept some responsibility for putting her in this position. You have said that you did know the difficulties an unmarried relationship with a Laos national could cause and you should have known that applying for a settlement visa is not just a simple formality. Don't expect her condition will arouse sympathy with the system

The proof and conditions you needed to fulfill were given to you in your previous post and I feel you didn't satisfy the requirements. I sympathise with you but the honesty is intended to help you.

[Boothy]

Hi Mahout, I am really grateful for all your help on this and I do think that your devil's advocate approach is helping a great deal, I can see where you are coming from.

However comments such as... 'you should accept some responsibility for putting her in this position' are very unfair and hurtful.

We are happy and in love with each other, we both got ourselves into this position and we will get ourselves out of it albeit with good objective help and advice, for which we are very grateful.

To imply I should accept some responsibility when it is quite evident that I am doing the very best I can and WE are both taking responsibility, hurts a great deal. And I just feel the need to point this out.

I couldn't find a smiley with tears but if there was one it would be here now crying.

[Mossfinn]

I couldn't find a smiley with tears but if there was one it would be here now crying.

Hi Boothy,

I suggest you don't take things so personally, although I admit it is difficult not to in such a highly charged and emotive subject on the back of a refusal, which sets you back somewhat.

Response's can be sometimes mis-interpreted, as there are no visual clues, smiles or body language to diffuse or dilute what might be a statement that appears to be hurtful and unkind.

As you say Mahout was giving an alterntive view, I would suggest it wasn't meant how it appears, but then I could be wrong.

Plenty of advice on the thread, follow up on them and get your next steps in place, keep asking questions you will get your responses.

Take on board what is relevant to your appeal or further submission and dust yourself down and get on with getting your family over here,

Good Luck

Moss

[iainiain101]

just a quick question. My Thai gf and I have just had a child. We decided to have the child in Thailand. One of the many reasons being cost.

We thought that all medical costs for the birth in the UK would have to be paid by us, and this can run to several thousand pounds. (ie. not from the public purse) Were we wrong in this assumption? If not should the availability of funds to cover the birth need to be proven as well?

Iain

[the scouser]

Iain,

If your girlfriend were to have entered the UK on a settlement visa, she could have received NHS treatment, and, if a visit visa, you would have had to pay for the birth from your own pocket.

Scouse.

[Mahout Angrit]

.....and only after you have been married on a fiancee visa and LTR has been granted can you seek treatment on the NHS.

See health guide

Edited May 1, 2007 by Mahout Angrit

[the scouser]

Although a fiancé(e) visa only allows entry for 6 months, it leads to permanent residence, so the holder would qualify for free NHS treatment prior to being married.

Scouse.

[slimsam]

Boothy,

It seems to me that the simplest solution would be for you to come back to the UK and take up the job with the employer you have the email from. This would then show that you can support your partner financially in the UK.

You need to show proof of the ownership of the house (copy of the deeds) and letters confirming that the owner and the party residing in the house are happy for you and you partner to stay there on a long term basis.

You can then send this additional evidence to the ECM to see if they will accept this for the original application. If not you can then use this for another application or in the appeals process.

While the inappropriate questions are annoying they do not seem to form any part of the reason for rejection and so you should not concern yourself with them when pursuing this.

On a positive note I know a couple of people who have been granted a visa when at first they were rejected by simply supplying the documents that the Embassy said they needed see.

Best of Luck,

SAM

[erikr_]

Do you already have the interview notes in the case? If not your girlfriend should send a letter or fax to the embassy asking them to send it to you. You might find some answers in there.