Am I Stupid?

[aussiestyle1983]

As some of you know I have been teaching here for about 18 months. I don't have a degree but I do have a TEFL and a TL & WP ( which you can get without a degree )

I have always planed to return to Australia sometime this years and I will be doing this very shortly. However, during my time here, I have actually enjoyed teaching, regardless of all the BS that is involved with it and I have decided to further my education so that I can come back here and teach in the future which is something that I will deffinently do.

So, I will use my time in Australia to get more qualifications to make it easier for me to get better jobs and become a legal teacher here again when I return. My question is as follows...........

1- I have been accepted into a PGCE which will lead to a MEd (TESOL) but I have just enroled in a full BA program in stead, do you think this was a stupid thing to do?

I know that a MEd (TESOL) is a good degree to have here to teach, but I believe that but not having a BA it might be not as good or it might be considered as taking a shortcut. I figured a MEd (TESOL) could really only be used here for my career anyway, but a BA could at least be used in Australia or anywhere else as well since it is not a specialist degree.

I have always listened to the opinions of others and I would just like to hear what others think or would have done.............. Would have you gone for the PGCE and MEd without a BA or do you think but not taking the shortcut and starting with the BA it will be better for my teaching career?

Any opinions would be apprieciated.

[PeaceBlondie]

Well, since you were kind enough to ask for any opinions, I'll sympathetically offer my ignorant opinion. To me as an American, it makes no sense to get any post-baccalaureate program before earning a bachelor's degree. So, if you're going for the BA, I agree that's logical. Again, being ignorant of PGCE (I doubt we have anything like it in North America, but I'm often mistaken), I don't know what it is, but I thought you were supposed to have some sort of BA or BS degree before you took your PGCE.

Good luck. Ne'ertheless, if you do get a good formal education in Oz, I'm not sure that coming back to Thailand would be professionally wise. I can't see how you would be likely to escape the problems inherent in most of the student population, most of the school administrations, being a foreigner in a strange land, etc.

[toptuan]

if you do get a good formal education in Oz, I'm not sure that coming back to Thailand would be professionally wise.

Maybe the guy wants to live "outside the box." Read that again...

However, during my time here, I have actually enjoyed teaching, regardless of all the BS that is involved with it...

I and others with advanced degrees have decided to throw in our lot with Thailand, as flawed as the system might be--not to "further ourselves professionally" as viewed by those back in our countries of origin, but because we have spiritually or emotionally arrived "home."

Edited May 1, 2007 by toptuan

[mbkudu]

As some of you know I have been teaching here for about 18 months. I don't have a degree but I do have a TEFL and a TL & WP ( which you can get without a degree )

I have always planed to return to Australia sometime this years and I will be doing this very shortly. However, during my time here, I have actually enjoyed teaching, regardless of all the BS that is involved with it and I have decided to further my education so that I can come back here and teach in the future which is something that I will deffinently do.

So, I will use my time in Australia to get more qualifications to make it easier for me to get better jobs and become a legal teacher here again when I return. My question is as follows...........

1- I have been accepted into a PGCE which will lead to a MEd (TESOL) but I have just enroled in a full BA program in stead, do you think this was a stupid thing to do?

I know that a MEd (TESOL) is a good degree to have here to teach, but I believe that but not having a BA it might be not as good or it might be considered as taking a shortcut. I figured a MEd (TESOL) could really only be used here for my career anyway, but a BA could at least be used in Australia or anywhere else as well since it is not a specialist degree.

I have always listened to the opinions of others and I would just like to hear what others think or would have done.............. Would have you gone for the PGCE and MEd without a BA or do you think but not taking the shortcut and starting with the BA it will be better for my teaching career?

Any opinions would be apprieciated.

I was in the same boat you are in now. As a degreeless teacher, I saw the writing on the wall for teaching in Thailand a few years ago, and began planning. The only thing I have done differently is to study here; not back home. It's much more affordable here, and the degree is accepted back home in the US. To answer your original question: No, you're not stupid; probably smarter than some teachers with no degrees who are just taking a wait and see approach and hoping for the best. Good luck to them.

Edited May 1, 2007 by mbkudu

[penkrew]

1- I have been accepted into a PGCE which will lead to a MEd (TESOL) but I have just enroled in a full BA program in stead, do you think this was a stupid thing to do?

Just one query, I always thought the PGCE was a post-graduate qualification, would you mind letting us know which PGCE course you can go on without having a degree? I'm not doubting it, am just curious.

[sylvafern]

You are right - but not only is a PGCE a post-graduate qualification, it is a British qualification so I am not sure how the OP is managed to be enrolled in one in Australia. Also, it will not lead into a MEd (Masters in Education) without first gaining a Bachelor of Education. I can not see how it is possible to do either of these qualifications without an undergraduate degree.

If the OP is interested in returning to Thailand (or elsewhere) as a teacher, especially if he wants to teacher in Australian schools or international schools, then he would be better off doing a teaching qualification. I'm not exactly sure how works in Australia but I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to find out by contacting universities. In New Zealand, Primary teachers train full time for a Bachelor of Teaching and Learning and secondary teachers do their chosen degree in the area of specialty (or a BEd) and then a post-graduate teaching diploma.

[Jimjim]

I'd think it's possible to get PGCE in Australia at a properly certified school. It's just like American students can go get their American BA degrees in Europe at a few properly certified schools.

[aussiestyle1983]

Okay, a PGCE (Post Graduate Certificate) or (Graduate Certificate) is a post grad qualification. In Australia they are the similar to post grad diplomas, they are just shorter courses and can be used also as bridging courses, example, if you have a BBA and you want to do an MEd, which is something completely different, the Uni might require you to do a Grad Cert or a Grad Diploms in Education first before you could proceed into the Masters course. For some fields of study, such as TEFL/ TESOL, it is obvious that there is not Bacehlor degrees in TEFL but there are a lot of Master degrees in TEFL available. It is not necessary to have an under grad degree to get into post grad TEFL/ TESOL courses as long as you have enough work related experience. In some cases, if you have over 24 months of full time ESL teaching experience and you can proove it, you can go straight into a MEd (TESOL) without having an under grad degree, in my case I only have about 18 months full time ESL teaching, so the Uni said I would need to do a grad cert first before proceding on to the masters. So, a PGCE is not only a British qualification unless it means something different there and you don't need an under grad degree to get into all post grad courses, it depends on the Uni, the course and how much relevant work experience you have.

[sylvafern]

The Postgraduate Certificate in Education (PGCE) is a one-year course in England, Wales and Northern Ireland for graduate degree holders that allows them to train to be a teacher. (wikipedia).

PGCE is a an actual qualification rather than a reference to general post graduate certificates. I'm sure other countries have similar qualifications.

I do, however, find it extremely bizarre that in Australia it is possible to get straight into post graduate studies with out ever having completed an undergraduate degree. Experience counts for a lot, but it doesn't count for everything. I learnt a lot during my teacher training that I never would have learnt through experience alone.

Edited May 9, 2007 by sylvafern

[aussiestyle1983]

I learnt a lot during my teacher training that I never would have learnt through experience alone.

And, I bet you have also learnt a lot from your actual teaching, especially some things that you would of never learnt in your teacher training

I think that a few years of experience standing up in from of a class of 50 non English speaking teenagers teaches you a lot more about ESL teaching than you would learn in a lecture or from writing an essay.

[sylvafern]

I learnt a lot during my teacher training that I never would have learnt through experience alone.

And, I bet you have also learnt a lot from your actual teaching, especially some things that you would of never learnt in your teacher training

I think that a few years of experience standing up in from of a class of 50 non English speaking teenagers teaches you a lot more about ESL teaching than you would learn in a lecture or from writing an essay.

I just saw in your other topic that you are only 24 ... knowing that, my advice is go back to Aus, do a proper teaching qualification - don't take the easy route (even if there is one ... I still question that it is possible to do a masters without a bachelors) and come back here - or anywhere - and get a decent paying job. To say what my salary is compared to what teachers at Thai schools get would be a bit embarrassing, so lets just say it's well above what you quoted in your other topic as being a decent salary. At 24, going back and studying for 3-4 years is nothing in comparison to what you will get out of it in the long run. It is not all lectures and essays as you think it is - I don't think I ever had to write an essay during my initial training and definitely never attended a full-on lecture - everything was done in tutor groups and almost all classes were hands-on and the assignments were practical. Of course, there are a few 'boring' classes, but for the most part it probably is not what you are thinking. Is there any way you can do it online if you didn't want to study full-time or even return to Aus? Not sure what the status is for Australians studying at New Zealand universities (would you be considered an international student... possibly not?) but my college offers a Bachelor of Teaching and Learning which can be done online. I am just completing this degree (when I was at college it was a diploma course so I have had to upgrade) and have done all papers by distance. If you are starting out, I think you do need to attend a couple of workshops onsite.

[aussiestyle1983]

Can you PM me the name and a link to your colleges website. I'd love to do an Education degree, but the courses I have just started, through open universities Australia, don't offer any Education degrees, except for post grad ones. I am just studying electives now and I will make up my mind what major to do later, which is very difficult because there is not many education topics and you can't major in Education anyway. But, I will be studying in distance mode, online, printed materials, etc. Because it's online, there are many essays that have to be done and I need to find an inviligator to supervise any exams I need to do. So, I am interested in this course you mentioned since I have just started, the only degree that is kind on relevant to teaching is a Bachelor of Arts (Society, Life & Learning) through Macquarie Uni, thats all thats available through the open uni but many primary teachers use that degree, so it could be ok, the major just sounds crappy, thats all. I will most likely get a degree un-related to teaching if I continue down this path, since you are allowed to get a WP here anyway with an un-related degree. But the cost of studying through the open Uni is a lot cheaper and more flexable that going to uni so I can continue to work and study where ever I am. Thanks for your help.

[bluebear]

errr

whats a BBA?

Is that a BA but in some funny down under language?

[aussiestyle1983]

errr

whats a BBA?

Is that a BA but in some funny down under language?

BBA is a Bachelor of Business Administration, in many langauges and in many countries

BTW, What planet are you from?

[PeaceBlondie]

Not to drift too far off topic, here are a few degree acronyms:

BA - Bachelor of Arts ---- BS or BSc - Bachelor of Science

BBA - Bachelor of Business Administration ----- BM or BMus - Bach. of Music

BEd - Bachelor of Education *

* Point: in some places, a B.Ed. only majors in education, not in a teaching field. In other places, it includes another major, in a teaching field such as science or history. Some places like Texas give no BEd, but a teacher chooses a regular degree and also takes a major in education.

PGCE: post graduate certificate in education, granted from countries like the UK and Australia, is not a master's degree, right? But what are Americans expected to do if they have a BA or BS without an education major? Go back and do two more years to have a BEd? They can't just start on an MEd if they haven't already majored in education, can they?

[aussiestyle1983]

In NSW, Australia, if you want to be a teacher, I think your bachelors degree does not matter, but you need to have studied so many units of the subject that you want to teach. Example, if you want to be a history teacher, as long as you studied enough history units at different year levels in your degree, you can teach that subject. However, after you finish you bachelors degree, you need to do a 1 year graduate diploma in education, which is one step above the grad certificate and one step under the master degree.

Bachelor Degree

(Post) Graduate Certificate

(Post) Graduate Diploma

Master Degree

So the grad cert and the grad dip are between in bachelors and masters levels in Australia.

Having said that, if you degree is a BEd (Education) maybe thats all you need, I don't know, but if you don't have a BEd, as long as you studied the subjects you want to teach in your under grad degree, you just need to complete the grad diploma in education before becoming a teacher.

Degrees in Oz

Bachelors, 3-5 years

Grad certificate, usually 6 months

Grad diploma, usually 1 year

Masters, 1-2 years

these are the normal time frames based on a full time study load.

I guess, every planet, country, state and maybe even school have their own requirements for teacher qualifications just as Universities in every planet & country have different entry requirements and different degree time frames and structures.

So, PB, an American with a BA or BS or any degree not related to teaching would just need a Grad Diploma (1 year FT) in Education to teach in Oz, assuming whatever subject they would be teaching they have studied about in their undergread degree. If they wanted, they could also proably just study a masters program, that would be up to the Uni, each Uni has it's own entry requirements, some less strict than others, but once you have any bachelors degree, most of you work is done.

Edited May 19, 2007 by aussiestyle1983

[varun]

At the end of the day, it all comes down to knowing yourself.

If you're confident enough that you can handle the workload that'll come w/ going into a Master's directly, then go for it.

Most people would think twice before going into a full-time Masters program.

Infact, most universities discourage prospective students from doing so.

Of course, if your high school scores / any standardized test scores are exceptionally high, they may consider you.

You'll also have to consider the fact that you've been out of school for a while.

The transition from a working environment to study environment takes a while for some.

Your best bet would be to enroll in a Bachelor's degree course in your relevant field of interest.

[Xangsamhua]

Hi Ausiestyle

It is interesting that you've been able to get into a Grad Cert course that will articulate to a Master's without having got an undergraduate degree first. Is it the UOW one? The university have obviously decided that you've got something that justifies the waiver, so good luck to you.

Re the MEd (TESOL) being a teaching qualification, have you checked to see if it qualifies you as a teacher to the extent that you would be registered in an Australian state? You've said that you want to return to teach in Thailand and I expect an MEd (TESOL) will satisfy the authorities here. However, registerability in Australia as a secondary or primary teacher would normally require a BEd, BTeach, BA Dip Ed, etc., i.e. an undergraduate qualification plus or including teacher training. If you're looking to gain a more widely accepted teacher training qualification, a four-year BEd would be better or the BA + a Dip Ed/Grad Dip Ed.

If you want to teach ESL in an Australian school you would need to be registered. However, I'm not sure of the requirements for teaching in an ELICOS centre (which is what they call an English teaching school in Australia).

[aussiestyle1983]

Thanks for your reply. Yes, UOW accepted me with evidence of my ESL teaching experience. I only wanted to get the degree to use in LOS, I would never teach anything in Australia. teaching in Australia is one of the most under paid and worst jobs I could think of. Respect to all teachers in Australia, you deserve more money (including teachers in the USA, Uk and everyelse wheere they are underpaid)

I am now studying a BA online, but it is not related to teaching or education (because the open uni does not have any BEd or teaching degrees available) Since Thailand will accept any degree, I'll do a degree in a field that I can use to get a job in australia and then hopefully it can still be used to get a job legally in thailand if I ever return. I then still plan to do the TEFL degree, but if I finish the bachelors first, I can go straight into an MED (UOW) without the need for the grad cert first, because really, without a bachelors or a masters, the grad cert is useless on its own.

So my plan, next 4 years, complete a BA in any field from Open Uni Australia. It will at least be a Bachelor of Arts so that will help, but the major just won't be in education or teaching. This will then make me able to get a work permit.

Following 2 years, do the MEd in (TESOL) via distance through UOW. If thailand raise their requirements to need an education related degree or a masters degree, I will still be covered.

So I will allow the next 6 years to complete BA and MEd (TESOL) for a total cost of under $25,000 (not including books) Than is a lot less than 1 mill THB and is not a whole lot more than it would cost me to do it in Thailand. But my degrees will be from Macquaire and UOW which are all a lot better than the Thai universities and would look better if I planned to teach in another country.

Thats all for now. I have to get back to writing my first essay

[Scott]

First, I think the OP is making the right decision.

Secondly, there are different regulations in different countries and even in different schools as to what they will accept to up-grade a degree. Quite a few years back, it was not uncommon to have:

Teacher's who obtained a teacher's certificate, but it wasn't a Bachelor's.

Teacher's who had a Bachelor's but not in education.

When some areas changed the regulations, some folks were grandfathered in others were given special oportunities to up-grade. In many, many instances a number of years of actual classroom experience was applied as credit or exemption from certain classes.

The same thing happened with the Social Work profession. Many people worked as social workers, but their degree was in something else, such as psychology. If people wanted to get a Master's in social work, but their undergrad degree was in another field, they were be permitted to do so if they had worked in the field for X number of years.