Raw And Cooked Food Diet

[Nienke]

Hi there,

With this enormous pet food scandal, I won't be surprised that there are many among you who are thinking how to prepare the food for your animal (cat, dog, ferret etc.) yourself.

So, I thought let's open a thread on this subject and learn from each others experiences and help each other with advice.

As i have mentioned on other threads already I fed my dogs a raw food diet. The amount I give depends on the body weight of the dog and their metabolism. (How to start and how to calculate the amount per day for your dog, please, go to my profile and click on my website. It will be way to long to of a ppost to explain all that).

My Rottweiler gets 400 gram, the GSD male 500 gram and GSD female 350gram per meal (two meals a day). I'm not always completely strict with these weights, sometimes they get a little less, when the raw food is running out and I haven't bought new supply yet.

In general (rule is not strict) I feed 2 to 3 days chicken, 1 to 2 days pork with or without one or two meals with tripes and/or veggie mix, and then again 2 to 3 days chicken, etc. Sometimes I buy duck. And sometimes fish. I only supplement in the veggie mixes some Vitamin B or brewer's yeast, cod liver oil, coconut oil or meat, apple cider vinager, sometimes yoghurt and then no ACV).

Well, this in very general.

I'm very curious at your experiences:

What do you give,

What kind of animal do you have and how much do you feed,

what are the ingredients,

Any supplements and what kind and why,

how was your animals before you started giving home-made meals and after,

interesting links on the net

etc.

Hope this will become an interesting thread and that I can learn a lot from you

Nienke

Edited May 2, 2007 by Nienke

[elfe]

hi nienke, very interesting thread, and info essential for health and wellbeing of the pups

my dogs have dry kibble as a base, it's always available. then they get raw meats and bones once a day, about 500 gr per dog on average, altogether 25-30 kg per day. this contains of chicken carcasses, chicken legs, chicken or beef intestines such as stomach, liver, heart. sometimes meaty beef chestbones but found that some of the dogs vomit parts of it the next day and/or can still be seen in their poo. for chewing they get cow legs. 2 or 3 times a week they get cooked pla o, about 15 kg for all dogs, mixed with rice, eggs, oils, vegetables and also sometimes the solid pig blood. i cook the eggs and crushed shells for a few minutes in the soup of the fish before i mix them with the rest. sometimes i cook pork, meaty bones, head or liver, kidney, heart etc. do you give the pork meat raw? i did for years but since about one year rather cook it due to health warnings.

i don't weigh or measure much, the amounts of meat, bones, fish etc varies every day, also according to availability. puppies get more raw meat and soft bones and every day until they are about 5 months old, then slowly reduce to one raw meal per day or every other day. usually i don't add any vitamin pills, only for dogs with health problems.

i wished i could leave out the kibble but this would mean a lot of cooking and shopping/carrying every day (would love to have it delivered...), but if i had only a few dogs i would never buy kibble - dogs would leave any kibble for cooked or raw food... and with all the many ingredients - you never know what's really inside and will harm your dog (see petfood scare - thread)

[November Rain]

I'm not being funny, elfe, genuine question, but since you're doing the same sort of thing as me, how on earth do you afford all of that? Even buying chicken carcasses (as I do) and the blood cake (I do, also) for 140 dogs is expensive. Then, I'm afraid I pad it out with veg, rice (yes, I know your views on grains, Nienke - sorry!) and dry kibble. Basically I cook the rice, chicken carcasses, blood cake & veg together, also add a bit of sunflower oil to that. Puppies get sardines with that to add a bit more protein. The pups & sick dogs in my home get that once a day & dry food once a day (they often don't eat the dry food). The healthy adults in the center get the rice mix once a day & dry food once every 2 days (they were getting fat).

They don't get bones, but not because I object, because they cause fights. They eat their food very quickly; bones take a long time to chew (obviously) and cause nasty fights.

I would love to feed the dogs better quality foods, particularly as at least 3 have recurring skin problems, which having read some of Nienke's posts, I now believe may be at least partially due to food. But I can hardly afford what I'm feeding now, I don't know how to make it better without increasing costs. And as you say, elfe, transportation is a problem for me, too.

[Nienke]

hi nienke, very interesting thread, and info essential for health and wellbeing of the pups

my dogs have dry kibble as a base, it's always available. then they get raw meats and bones once a day, about 500 gr per dog on average, altogether 25-30 kg per day. this contains of chicken carcasses, chicken legs, chicken or beef intestines such as stomach, liver, heart. sometimes meaty beef chestbones but found that some of the dogs vomit parts of it the next day and/or can still be seen in their poo. for chewing they get cow legs. 2 or 3 times a week they get cooked pla o, about 15 kg for all dogs, mixed with rice, eggs, oils, vegetables and also sometimes the solid pig blood. i cook the eggs and crushed shells for a few minutes in the soup of the fish before i mix them with the rest. sometimes i cook pork, meaty bones, head or liver, kidney, heart etc. do you give the pork meat raw? i did for years but since about one year rather cook it due to health warnings.

i don't weigh or measure much, the amounts of meat, bones, fish etc varies every day, also according to availability. puppies get more raw meat and soft bones and every day until they are about 5 months old, then slowly reduce to one raw meal per day or every other day. usually i don't add any vitamin pills, only for dogs with health problems.

i wished i could leave out the kibble but this would mean a lot of cooking and shopping/carrying every day (would love to have it delivered...), but if i had only a few dogs i would never buy kibble - dogs would leave any kibble for cooked or raw food... and with all the many ingredients - you never know what's really inside and will harm your dog (see petfood scare - thread)

Hi Elfe,

I have the pork and chicken delivered at my house. Why they can't do that for you, as you buy many kilo's at the time?

At the local market you can ask for the coconut meat left-over after they have made the kati (coconutmilk). This usually goes to the pigs and normally you can get a whole bag for free. It is not as good as the real meat, but still very usuable. And coconut is very good for the skin and coat, among other things. Of course, you can also have kati made and use this as liquid instead of water in your veggie meals (contains a lot of the coconut oil), plus a bag of the coconut meat stuff.

Further, on the markets they often take of the ugly leaves of the veggies. You might ask if you can have that (for free). However, if I understand well, those leaves are the ones that contains most of the pesticides, so you need to soak them first in .... (hydrogen peroxide??? what was it again???)

Another thing what you can choose for is to feed the dogs once a day and follow more a prey model diet ([email protected] is one of the best, if not THE best, list on this subject). Then, you can also choose to give a whole (or half a) chicken at the time, and then feed everyday or every other day depending on the amount you give. In principle with a raw diet this is no problem, and it might very be that some of your dogs are following this already by waiting for their raw meal everyday. Dogs are carnivores. The fact they ask for their daily meals is becasue they are conditioned to this. In case, you have interest in changing to a prey model diet, then I suggest to do this gradually.

I'm too sensitive and feel very quickly sorry for them, and while knowing better I still feed twice a day.

The costs for a raw food diet and good quality kibble are pretty much the same.

Nienke

[sbk]

I was the same Neinke, fed my dogs twice a day. And they were getting chubby. Last year when I came back to my parents home for an extended period of time due to a family crisis, my husband started our dogs on a once a day feeding. They adjusted fine and I haven't gone back to the twice a day. They've all dropped a bit of weight and look better. I've had to learn to be strong

I give my 5 dogs cooked rice mixed with chicken and vegetables. They won't eat the veggies raw so I steam them just a bit. If my husband has been fishing then they get fish, rice and veggies. Forgot to add, one dog has skin issues when she eats dry dog food, I tried feeding just the other dogs mixed dry food but, of course, she would go eat theirs. So, now nobody gets dry dog food.

[elfe]

hi november rain,

as nienke already stated, the cost of raw or cooked food is almost the same as kibble. one kg of cheap kibble costs about 30 baht, 1kg of chickencarcasses or blood costs 22 baht. if you cook fish with rice it will be about the same per kg. cooked rice and soaked again in soup is not so bad as the grain powders and melasses used in kibble. best to use brown rice i guess.

thanks nienke for the advice, will check out the group when i have time. i asked our local supercenters about delivery but they don't. a shop around the corner got chicken carcasses delivered for me for quite some time but now they stopped as it is more expensive than in the supercenters. thankfully they always have lots of pla o there as the husband goes fishing, so i don't have to drive far for fish and it's 55 baht per kg and lots of protein (big fish).

for fighting about bones, you will see it stops once they have plenty available and all the time. i know for such a mass of dogs it's quite impossible to get enough cow legs, i also order and on sundays i get about 50 kg maximum at one butcher shop at the market, enough for me here, but you could order at several shops at the same time. the bones lie around for quite sometime and are used for chewing and taking care, big fights never occur here about them. chicken carcasses and other meaty bones are chewed quite quickly by the adult dogs, puppies i have to feed seperately. raw feeding is more convenient as you just give out the pieces and don't need to cook and wash dishes afterwards, maybe just some cutting of the pieces involved. when i feed them they gather all around me and i just throw each of them their pieces, they catch it with their mouth. so you can also give more or less to certain dogs. some dogs have to be watched as they want to take away from others, so it's a bit of a sport every day

when i feed cooked food i need many many bowls so each dog has the chance to get to a bowl, even not fully filled up, so lots of dishwashing afterwards. twice or three times a week just bearable

nienke, about the pork, do you give it raw? i would really love to do that but am scared of aujetzky virus. would love to feed twice a day as i think it's healthier but don't manage to do most days. will check out the coconut meat leftovers, sounds good to me

[Skyline]

I've tried various dried food and considered Nutro to be the best for my Bulldog up until a year or so ago.Now I feed him a diet of rice,liver and chicken prepared by myself at home.The new diet seems to be working well,his fur is in excellent condition and is less prone to bouts of 'the runs'.

I also try to give him veggies and fruit as occasional treats as he loves them,but his love for cheese is getting way to expensive:)

[Nienke]

nienke, about the pork, do you give it raw? i would really love to do that but am scared of aujetzky virus. would love to feed twice a day as i think it's healthier but don't manage to do most days. will check out the coconut meat leftovers, sounds good to me

Hi Elfe,

I've chosen to give the pork raw. I know about the aujezski virus, and I also know that there is nothing against it once they contract this virus, and it is probably 99% fatal. I know of one dog that pulled through and that was a long time ago.

However, the chance they can get it is so small compared by them getting tick fever, contract disease from the vaccine, getting a side-effect of vaccine, getting over-dose of ivermectin, or getting side-effect of medicines, all of which I've experienced in less then 2 months.

There are people fully against giving raw pork and others they take they risk. I'm in the last group.

Nienke

[Nienke]

i asked our local supercenters about delivery but they don't. a shop around the corner got chicken carcasses delivered for me for quite some time but now they stopped as it is more expensive than in the supercenters. thankfully they always have lots of pla o there as the husband goes fishing, so i don't have to drive far for fish and it's 55 baht per kg and lots of protein (big fish).

I hardly ever go to supermarkets, always to the local market. Except for the Makro, but you'd rather don't buy prok there. Looks way too much red. In Chiang Mai there is he main market where the other market people buy there products. Here is also a shop that sells only chicken (products). They deliver to my house.

Concerning the costs for raw feeding, i was refferring to the prices of Science Diet or Nutro. That's more 70 to 80 baht per kilo.

If I give only chicken, it's around 40 baht one day for a big dog (500 gram two times day). If it's pork rib and tripes, then it's about 80 baht a day for a big dog.

When you give a sufficient nutritious diet, your dog's immune system will be strong (if not broken down by vaccines, med's etc), and thus you've got a healthy dog that doesn't need much veterinary treatment.

Alhtough, I understand NR's concern and ongoing struggle about costs, giving cheap dog food next to raw feeding, is a bit the idea of eating healthy veggies, fruits and/or salad once a day and the rest of the day you junk food with a lot of preservative, artificial coloring, flavors etc. And don't believe the labels on the petfood bags, as I just read a report that in China they boosted the protein level in the petfood by adding melamine.

Nienke

[Nienke]

I was the same Neinke, fed my dogs twice a day. And they were getting chubby. Last year when I came back to my parents home for an extended period of time due to a family crisis, my husband started our dogs on a once a day feeding. They adjusted fine and I haven't gone back to the twice a day. They've all dropped a bit of weight and look better. I've had to learn to be strong

I give my 5 dogs cooked rice mixed with chicken and vegetables. They won't eat the veggies raw so I steam them just a bit. If my husband has been fishing then they get fish, rice and veggies. Forgot to add, one dog has skin issues when she eats dry dog food, I tried feeding just the other dogs mixed dry food but, of course, she would go eat theirs. So, now nobody gets dry dog food.

I've got several dogs. One long-term boarder had skin problems for a long time. Lots of med's, didn't work. Couldn't figure out why. She was kibble fed. Till, I decided to put her on raw diet. She went better but wasn't perfect yet. After I started adding the cocnut, she went ok.

Now, during Songkran it was so busy, that I gave all the dogs kibble. WRONG! Some diarrhea, some skin problems. Also, this dog. Poor dog, and my fault.

Lots of boinki-boinki with my head against the wall and several wip-lashes.

So, pissed of with myself, because what longer do I feed if I give raw in stead of kibble; 15 minutes, half an hour? Not more than that.

Nienke

[elfe]

I've chosen to give the pork raw.

hi nienke, that is really interesting to me as i had given raw pork and pork bones for years, but read so much about it on dog websites and forums that i got worried and stopped. seems like everyone is very much against that, never read that people do give raw pork, except they don't make it public as you do. never read about a dog either which contracted the aujetzki virus. i just thought this would be at least one of the many health risks our dogs have which i could control, by cooking the pork.

as it is cheaper than beef and also red meat which is important to feed, i will give it a go again today, am off to tescos... today it's too late for the market but tomorrow will buy again at the butchers where the meat is fresh and they always give me a good price and some bones for free

[Nienke]

I've chosen to give the pork raw.

hi nienke, that is really interesting to me as i had given raw pork and pork bones for years, but read so much about it on dog websites and forums that i got worried and stopped. seems like everyone is very much against that, never read that people do give raw pork, except they don't make it public as you do. never read about a dog either which contracted the aujetzki virus. i just thought this would be at least one of the many health risks our dogs have which i could control, by cooking the pork.

as it is cheaper than beef and also red meat which is important to feed, i will give it a go again today, am off to tescos... today it's too late for the market but tomorrow will buy again at the butchers where the meat is fresh and they always give me a good price and some bones for free

I've experienced the disease when was working at a dog and cat kennel in Holland, some 20 years ago. And the owner did not even give prok. The bucher most probably had used the same knive for the tripes she had bought as he did for the pork. About 5 cats and 6 dogs died of the disease, and one survived. How he survived is till today unknown.

Since I've never expereicned this disease anymore.

The reason, people are strongly against giving raw pork is that, according to them, by doing so you know that once the animal contracts the virus there's no way back. There's no treatment and, thus, it's fatal. So, in a way it's playing russian roulette with your animal's life. Think there's is a point there, but by giving your animal unsufficient dog food, combined vaccines, yearly boosters, unsufficient excercise, way to many med's, etc. etc. you're doing the same thing.

Just find out the reason of my GSD's permanent damage to his eyes and his light ataxia. Something he contracted 4 years ago after applying ear med's. It's a side-effect of gentamicin, a chemical or whatever, in this medicine. It's almost a routine med sold at the vet's and in petshops. I've got it in the fridge for when needed. My GSD was one of those dogs that happened to be sensitive to this med. BLAST!

The more you read and study, the more you work with animals (or people), the more you start seeing the side-effects. Of course, the percentage is small compared to the ones that will be cured. But it is, in a way, playing russian roulette. Becasue, you won't know if you or your animal is sensitive untill it is too late. As with my dog, as with the dog that died over the combined vaccine 2 months ago. Unfortunately, the vet did not recognize that it was a side-effect of the med in my dog

Nienke

[marshbags]

nienke, about the pork, do you give it raw? i would really love to do that but am scared of aujetzky virus. would love to feed twice a day as i think it's healthier but don't manage to do most days. will check out the coconut meat leftovers, sounds good to me

Hi Elfe,

I've chosen to give the pork raw. I know about the aujezski virus, and I also know that there is nothing against it once they contract this virus, and it is probably 99% fatal. I know of one dog that pulled through and that was a long time ago.

However, the chance they can get it is so small compared by them getting tick fever, contract disease from the vaccine, getting a side-effect of vaccine, getting over-dose of ivermectin, or getting side-effect of medicines, all of which I've experienced in less then 2 months.

There are people fully against giving raw pork and others they take they risk. I'm in the last group.

Nienke

Taken for The Nation May 3, 2007 : Last updated 04:43 pm (Thai local time)

Quote:-

Raw-pork dishes kill 2, making 300 others sick

Up to 55 patients remained hospitalised at a Phayao Hospital Thursday after they ate raw-pork dishes provided at a funeral last week.

Of them, three remained in intensive-care units.

"We believe they have caught Streptococcus suis from the raw pork and pig blood," Public Health Ministry's permanent secretary Dr Prat Boonyawongvirot said Thursday.

Following the servings at the funeral on April 25 in Phayao's Phu Sang subdistrict, more than 300 people came down with illnesses. Of them, two died.

Prat said he already assigned Dr Thanongsan Suthatham, inspector general of the Public Health Ministry, to control the spread of the dangerous bacterium and draw up long-term preventative measures.

The Nation

Unquote.

Don,t know if this could have an effect on non human beings, dogs and other pets ????????

Ref. url:- http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/r...newsid=30033301

marshbags

[macb]

WEll you all seen my boy in other threads :

Well 'Lucky has rice every day with with cup of 'Saverpak' all in one meal purchased from 'Makro' onthis is added Soy sauce, he loves it.

Other treats the other day we bought bones from Makro ,the wife boiled them and he munched them, also leftovers from KFC sometimes. And he is extremely active around the boundary wall of our property barking at everyone and cows etc.

[elfe]

And he is extremely active around the boundary wall of our property barking at everyone and cows etc.

you mean in spite of eating dog junk food and rice your lucky still shows signs of being alive?

well, barking at everyone and everything outside the wall also can indicate boredom and not being busy enough... one of my gsd also developped this, he is extremely eager to learn and work. when i'm with them they only bark at people who really want to come inside, when they are alone and bored, well that's another thing...

[November Rain]

How about bones, Nienke? As I stated, I now feed the dogs chicken carcasses, rice veggies etc. I have been told countless times by vets, including my present one not to give bones, particularly small ones like chicken that can splinter.

I've talked myself into "this is what they would kill & eat in the wild", so I let them have the bones. So far, no ill effects & they love it. But what are the risks? Nienke, BambinA?

[Nienke]

Taken for The Nation May 3, 2007 : Last updated 04:43 pm (Thai local time)

Quote:-

Raw-pork dishes kill 2, making 300 others sick

Up to 55 patients remained hospitalised at a Phayao Hospital Thursday after they ate raw-pork dishes provided at a funeral last week.

Of them, three remained in intensive-care units.

"We believe they have caught Streptococcus suis from the raw pork and pig blood," Public Health Ministry's permanent secretary Dr Prat Boonyawongvirot said Thursday.

Following the servings at the funeral on April 25 in Phayao's Phu Sang subdistrict, more than 300 people came down with illnesses. Of them, two died.

Prat said he already assigned Dr Thanongsan Suthatham, inspector general of the Public Health Ministry, to control the spread of the dangerous bacterium and draw up long-term preventative measures.

The Nation

Unquote.

Don,t know if this could have an effect on non human beings, dogs and other pets ????????

Ref. url:- http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/r...newsid=30033301

marshbags

Hi,

To be honest, I'm not sure. Just did some googling and couldn't find anything specific. Did find the following link: streptococcosis but this explains more the many different kinds of Streptococcus

Further, I found that mainly humans are host, an there is a specific string called S.canis that effects dogs.

A vet in The States said she wasn't sure, but that overthere the pork needs to be frozen for several weeks before it can be sold. Freezing kills many bugs. And, of course, The States in not Thailand or vice versa.

What i do know is that there are many bacteria that are actually quite common around us, such as streptococcus and salmonella. They can and will multiply under favorable circumstances, such as when the immune system is down.

I did read that the S.Suis does most of its havoc in those places where pigs are crowded (stress), and where it is not hygienic. And that people most at risk are those in close contact with raw pork and those with a lowered immune system.

Nienke

Edited May 3, 2007 by Nienke

[Jet Gorgon]

Good thread, and important now with the dog food scares.

In Thailand, my dogs always got bones, even chicken. (My brood all died of old age, neighbour poisoning or in one case a road accident, not splintered bones.)

For dogs I cooked market beef (Bt120/kg) or small white fish (Bt20-30/kg) in the rice cooker with rice (cheapest at Tesco) and cauliflower (the fish bones removed easily after cooking). My doc on Samui had 20 different kinds of pedigree dogs and he ordered a local kibble from BKK for about Bt450/15kg. He told me it contained some nutrients good for warding off Alzheimer's so I ate a bit everyday myself (kidding). I do taste the kibble and treats, tho. Sorry, forget that brand name, but if someone is on Samui, perhaps they could cruise by Dr Somsak's clinic on the main road in Nathon and ask him.

For my kitties, I bought squid at the fresh market (cheap, like Bt20 a kilo for the small ones). My cats would literally bounce off the walls when they smelled it, and jump up on the sink stand while I cut out the ink pouches and cartiledge. Give it to them raw, parcel into one-serving packs, freeze and thaw a pack daily for din.

The beef and pork ladies at the market always gave me big bones for free. If you're weening dogs off kibble, they still need something to gnaw on to keep their teeth strong, so I suggest bones (cooked the pork ones). Also hours of free entertainment for the canines.

Frankly, the only time I gave canned pet food to my kids was when I went on visa trips and friends took care of them.

[macb]

And he is extremely active around the boundary wall of our property barking at everyone and cows etc.

you mean in spite of eating dog junk food and rice your lucky still shows signs of being alive?

well, barking at everyone and everything outside the wall also can indicate boredom and not being busy enough... one of my gsd also developped this, he is extremely eager to learn and work. when i'm with them they only bark at people who really want to come inside, when they are alone and bored, well that's another thing...

I am afraid I have to disagree with you: He knows who is local and who is not, he is far from bored he is doing the job I trained him to do protect our property from intruders, he barks at the cows to keep them moving past our front gate this the wife wants as well, he barks at people who come to the gate (No good having a dog and barking yourself):

He has good quality food and looks well on it and also has play time during he day a very loving and protective dog.

[elfe]

macb, i did not mean to offend, just the sound of your post was funny to me

am sure lucky got everything and more he needs

here's my little 'barky' leo

[Nienke]

How about bones, Nienke? As I stated, I now feed the dogs chicken carcasses, rice veggies etc. I have been told countless times by vets, including my present one not to give bones, particularly small ones like chicken that can splinter.

I've talked myself into "this is what they would kill & eat in the wild", so I let them have the bones. So far, no ill effects & they love it. But what are the risks? Nienke, BambinA?

Oops, NR, missed your post. Sorry about that.

There is a big difference between feeding cooked bones and raw bones.

Feeding cooked bones is a NO-NO. The reason is that when heating the chemical composition of the bones and the meat changes. For example, take a chicken carcas with some meat on it. When raw the meat is tough and the bones are reasonable flexible that are hard to break. After heating, the meat becomes so tender that you can easily split it with a fork. The bones, on the other hand, become hard due to hardening of the calcium inside, and you can break/splinter them fairly easy, which is extremely dangerous when these splinters go through the digestive tract. They are so sharp that they can easily perforate the intestinal wall.

The digestive system of dogs are still very similar to those of wolves. And, as we all know, wolves are carnivores and so are dogs. Their digestive system is made to digest raw meat and raw bones. Dogs and wolves are scavengers as well, they ate fesh stuf and decaying stuff. The enzymes, bacteria and 'whatever' in the saliva and digestive system are made to deal with this. That, of course, doesn't mean that they can't get food poisening of really rotten stuff, they certainly can (but who is going to give that?).

Of course, there's always a risk, such as choking on food, whether that is raw food or kibble. When eating kibble there is a higher risk on bloat. Raw food puts the stomach to work, making the the muscle much stronger, resulting in a lesser risk on bloat.

When you give bones it's best to give them raw, but not solely bones. The diet should consist of approximately 50% bones and 50% meat, in order to give the dog the calcium and phosphorus in sufficient amounts and kind of proper ration. (meat has a lot of phosphorus and bones calcium). The bone marrow is very nutritious and is best given raw for the dog to be able to digest all the goodies.

Pups can have a little bit more bones compared to the meat, but not much.

As for the veggies: when given in small pieces my dogs won't eat them. But when completely blended and then mixed with minced-meat, -organs or -fish, they will eat (can't pick the goodies out).

Some veggies have a bitter taste. Knowing that I would suggest to give a little less of the bitter ones and some more of the sweet tasting veggies in one mix.

And again I would suggest to become a member of the raw feeding list, although they feed according a raw prey diet and not according the BARF (Bones And raw Food diet). I know some, but they know a lot more .

Nienke

[Nienke]

macb, i did not mean to offend, just the sound of your post was funny to me

am sure lucky got everything and more he needs

here's my little 'barky' leo

Hi Elfe,

From the pic's your dog looks really HAPPY! Big smile on his face

Nienke

[Nienke]

Good thread, and important now with the dog food scares.

In Thailand, my dogs always got bones, even chicken. (My brood all died of old age, neighbour poisoning or in one case a road accident, not splintered bones.)

For dogs I cooked market beef (Bt120/kg) or small white fish (Bt20-30/kg) in the rice cooker with rice (cheapest at Tesco) and cauliflower (the fish bones removed easily after cooking). My doc on Samui had 20 different kinds of pedigree dogs and he ordered a local kibble from BKK for about Bt450/15kg. He told me it contained some nutrients good for warding off Alzheimer's so I ate a bit everyday myself (kidding). I do taste the kibble and treats, tho. Sorry, forget that brand name, but if someone is on Samui, perhaps they could cruise by Dr Somsak's clinic on the main road in Nathon and ask him.

For my kitties, I bought squid at the fresh market (cheap, like Bt20 a kilo for the small ones). My cats would literally bounce off the walls when they smelled it, and jump up on the sink stand while I cut out the ink pouches and cartiledge. Give it to them raw, parcel into one-serving packs, freeze and thaw a pack daily for din.

The beef and pork ladies at the market always gave me big bones for free. If you're weening dogs off kibble, they still need something to gnaw on to keep their teeth strong, so I suggest bones (cooked the pork ones). Also hours of free entertainment for the canines.

Frankly, the only time I gave canned pet food to my kids was when I went on visa trips and friends took care of them.

That's a nice one, haven't heard that one yet I wouldn't take that as a garantee that the food is good, though.

As for kibble keeping teeth clean, that's a total myth introduced by the petfood industry as a sales technique. Kibble does NOT keep teeth free, in fact they are a major source for plaque and tartar, and all the health problems that goes with dirty teeth. If they would keep teeth clean, why are there now special doggy tooth paste and tooth brushes on the market, or special treats to keep teeth clean? That shouldn't be necessary if this myth would be true, wouldn't it?!

Nienke

[elfe]

can only second that nienke, one of my goldens was only fed on kibble all his life till i got him at an age of about 4 yrs. after being fed on meaty bones for only three weeks his teeth became shiny white - and without any teethbrushing or teethcleaning was actually very surprised myself because the teeth looked so ugly in the beginning, thick grey plaque everywhere

it took him a month or so though to get to like the raw foods!

here he is, this is bogart with shiny teeth

[Nienke]

I am afraid I have to disagree with you: He knows who is local and who is not, he is far from bored he is doing the job I trained him to do protect our property from intruders, he barks at the cows to keep them moving past our front gate this the wife wants as well, he barks at people who come to the gate (No good having a dog and barking yourself):

He has good quality food and looks well on it and also has play time during he day a very loving and protective dog.

Well, dogs are NOT capable of distinguishing locals from non-locals. They are capable of knowing strangers from people they know and strange behavior from that what THEY conceive as normal or familiar behavior.

As as far as the guarding and protecting behavior concerns: dogs live in packs with a leader at the top of the hierarchy. It is the task of the leader to protect the pack when there is danger. The rest will make alarm (guard the territory) and then the leader will come to check out whether there is real danger and one need to act or not (protects the teritory and the pack).

Normal dog behavior would then be, that they will bark alarm, and then WAIT till you come out to check it out. In case you decide to act, they may or may not help you in the fight, depending on the dog whether that's a guard dog breed or not.

Most dogs will not full blown attack and stand their case when an intruder comes in. Such a thing is not in their nature. After all, when taking a challenge there is also the chance of getting hurt. And by getting hurt they are not only risking their own health but the health of the whole pack, therefore, most dogs will choose to run to safety if really challenged.

A dog that does not wait for its owner and acts independent says something about the way s/he views her position within the pack.

Many 'well'-trained police dogs will act out of fear, and not out of confidence. You can notice this by their body language (ears down, looking away, etc) and their bite.

A confident dog will bite full, out of him- or herself, ears to the front and looking at the 'bad' guy. A fear biter will bite with the front teeth, often showing the (pre) molars, ears down and looks away.

A good police dog (with sufficient physical and mental exercise) does not bark your head of. I would assume that that would make the handler (and his/her family) screaming mad after a while.

The best guard dogs that I have encountered are those that let the intruder in (quietly), stays in the neighborhood of this person, but won't let him/her out till the owner comes back and takes over. Doesn't do much, though, only growls a low growl or barks a low bark as a warning when the intruder dares to move towards the way out.

And as far as the Makro's savepack concerns: if you want to keep on believing that, believe it. My experience is much different. And I've seen many dogs in the last years.

Nienke

[Nienke]

can only second that nienke, one of my goldens was only fed on kibble all his life till i got him at an age of about 4 yrs. after being fed on meaty bones for only three weeks his teeth became shiny white - and without any teethbrushing or teethcleaning was actually very surprised myself because the teeth looked so ugly in the beginning, thick grey plaque everywhere

it took him a month or so though to get to like the raw foods!

here he is, this is bogart with shiny teeth

Another smiling and happy dog

[elfe]

Normal dog behavior would then be, that they will bark alarm, and then WAIT till you come out to check it out. In case you decide to act, they may or may not help you in the fight, depending on the dog whether that's a guard dog breed or not.

Most dogs will not full blown attack and stand their case when an intruder comes in. Such a thing is not in their nature. After all, when taking a challenge there is also the chance of getting hurt. And by getting hurt they are not only risking their own health but the health of the whole pack, therefore, most dogs will choose to run to safety if really challenged.

that's what leo does, he barks and always looks to the house/windows/doors where i am to see if i come and look that he discovered there is something or someone out there. once i call him he would stop. if i go outside he would come to my side and wait what will happen next. once i let someone inside he buggers off and does not care at all anymore about the intruder. if someone comes in by himself, like if i let the door open for handymen going in and out, he would go up to them and watch them, waiting what i have in mind, then i call him to go away. he never attacks. he also is not fond of people like many of my other dogs who would slobber and jump visitors to death, he always keeps away. he and some others are my real watchdogs, the others mainly alarming but most of them i would not be sure if they helped me in a dangerous situation, maybe only if leo and others would start to do so.

[Jet Gorgon]

That's a nice one, haven't heard that one yet I wouldn't take that as a garantee that the food is good, though.

As for kibble keeping teeth clean, that's a total myth introduced by the petfood industry as a sales technique. Kibble does NOT keep teeth free, in fact they are a major source for plaque and tartar, and all the health problems that goes with dirty teeth. If they would keep teeth clean, why are there now special doggy tooth paste and tooth brushes on the market, or special treats to keep teeth clean? That shouldn't be necessary if this myth would be true, wouldn't it?!

Nienke

I never said kibble keeps teeth clean and healthy. That's why I go for the bones.

[macb]

macb, i did not mean to offend, just the sound of your post was funny to me

am sure lucky got everything and more he needs

here's my little 'barky' leo

No problem no offence was taken:

Nice looking dog you got there

[sbk]

Well, dogs are NOT capable of distinguishing locals from non-locals. They are capable of knowing strangers from people they know and strange behavior from that what THEY conceive as normal or familiar behavior.

Nienke

I beg to differ, my dog barks only at foreigners but not Thais. Doesn't matter if he knows the Thai or not, he doesnt bark but does bark at all foreigners, including Malaysians and other Asians. And he has had contact with foreigners his entire life (including myself, who he doesn't usually bark at) so he is used to their behavior as well.

Anyway, not the subject, so I'd like to get back to the veggie issue. Some veggies are bad for dogs, such as onions, I believe. I've managed to get my dogs to eat carrots, cauliflower and green beans well enough, and the chinese kale if its chopped up small enough. cabbage may be too bitter and that's why they eat around it.