Overcharged, Even With A Menu

[dumspero]

So few people on this post seem to get it even if they've lived in Thailand for years.

First, who knows what happened here, whether bad math, just the waiter, management endorsed 'flexible pricing' or something else.

Second, and more broadly, it's not about farangs per se. This kind of thing happens at all levels to Thais as well. For example, speaking of negotiating contracts, in the West, there is a negotiation and then a deal is made and that tends to be it. It is far more common in East Asia, including Thailand, for the first mutual agreement to be merely the first step in the negotiations. From a Western perspective, the backing off after reaching a deal would be a breach of contract, at least as a general matter. With Japanese or Thai businessmen and their lawyers, it would more likely be understood that there would be further price negotiations after the first "deal" is reached.

To put it another way, absolutes in human interactions aren't so absolute in Thailand. Black isn't so black and white isn't so white. Things generally are more gray, more flexible and more open to revision. The treatment of menu prices is merely one particular manifestation of this. And one will never be truly at peace in Thailand if one can't undertstand that and have a strategy for dealing with it and then let it go.

By the way, I've had this happen and we just point it out, pay the menu price and then still tip. No one way, but no need to worry about it.

[markg]

Thanks for painting all of us with that broad brush!!

For your information, I'm scandinavian, Norwegian as a matter of fact, and rest assured I don't pay "anything they want"

But then again I don't act like a tourist, I live here.

My experience is that if you get ripped of, it's because your behavior indicate you are not familiar with the "Thai" way of doing things.

BTW I have never threatened anyone with the police to get my way, and I can assure you that's not the "Thai" way of doing things .

Not anti-scandinavian and not tarring you ALL with the same brush, but it's just the pound for pound, you guys probably earn the most money in Europe, so when you come here, paying an extra 40 baht each time over the odds is ABSOLUTELY nothing to you! It's not worth arguing over. When i was travelling, i was limited to 500 baht a day. For everything. Getting ripped off for 40 baht was a big deal for me.

The reason i said call the police is that the song thaew in Lanta, with stated prices painted on it ( i think 40 baht), stopped on a jungly track in the middle of no where, the driver got out and said, Ok, you pay me 80 baht now. All the scandinavians paid up straight away. I dug my heels in and refused. The driver and co-driver started to get aggressive. I said call the police then and he backed down. And i dont give a <deleted> if you think it's not very Thai. I'm not Thai. And what the driver and co-driver did wasnt very Thai either. Frankly i'm sick of people saying this isnt the Thai culture or whatever. Thai's are human beings - they dont act as one, they act as individuals. And there are bad apples amongst them.

Sorry - i dont get ripped off anywhere. And if someone gets aggressive with me in a remote area then i'm gonna fight back when i know i'm in the right.

My point is that this guy has done this probably hundreds of times. It's because people keep paying up that he keeps doing it. And suddenly the official price will rise up to meet the rip-off price, and the rip-off price will go even higher.

[markg]

So few people on this post seem to get it even if they've lived in Thailand for years.

To put it another way, absolutes in human interactions aren't so absolute in Thailand. Black isn't so black and white isn't so white. Things generally are more gray, more flexible and more open to revision. The treatment of menu prices is merely one particular manifestation of this. And one will never be truly at peace in Thailand if one can't undertstand that and have a strategy for dealing with it and then let it go.

The grey areas you speak of are true - but i'm sorry mate, i dont agree about prices on a menu. The same situation wouldnt happen with a Thai family. The bill might be wrong due to bad maths - and often is - but trying on the "old menu or bigger portion" scam just doesnt happen to Thais. It's a scam. They are hoping you wont notice, or wont make a fuss. And many of them havent yet realised that we foreigners often vote with our feet. So they will rip us off for 50 baht one day, but will lose out on years and years worth of custom because of it. Still too many Thais have this short term view.

[Dakhar]

A problem i often find is that the staff cant add up. My missus ALWAYS checks the bill - no matter how long it is - and makes the waiter stand there whilst she does it. If its wrong in any way, back it goes. She smiles and is polite of course, as we all should be. The bill is OFTEN wrong though. She says this is nothing to do with me being foreign - it even happens back home in Nakon Si Nowhere. They just aint that bright.

Like the OP says - it aint about the money - its the principle. And i agree.

If you live in a tourist zone - just keep paying the money and see how much the prices go up.

Look, for example, at tourist places with lots of scandinavians who will just pay anything if you want evidence. They tried it on with me once in ko Lanta. Songthaw full of scandinavians paid the extra 20 baht each. I said call the cops and paid the agreed and advertised rate.

I dont like getting ripped off ANYWHERE.

You will have to excuse us scandinavians, in our countries a price is a price and rarely will anybody ask a higher price than the real cost, haggeling over prices in shops and public transport is almost unheard of, so when turists from scandinavia come here it is quite a culture chock having to expect that sombody will try to rip you of, especially for amounts so small that it wouldent even cover the cost of half a cigaret back home.

And even though I am an expat living here, nobody is going to make me stand in the street arguing about 5 bath, it is not me as a single individual that has to stop the Bathbus scheeme, it must be up to the authorities, and if I am not happy with their result I am free to leave anytime, I dont think it is right what they do, but it is not enough to take the joy of living here away, if I get cheated for small amounts in a resturant, I just walk away and never come back, as some suggests the Thai might think he won, but I dont care, you see I think I won, I dident get upset, I dont have an ulcer and my day is still okay.

Kind regards

The waiter won? No, he may have won the battle, but he lost the war. You probably jumped in a taxi, got to your point of destination, paid the 180 baht fair like it was nothing.

The fellow that ripped you off 15 baht, maybe took the 1 hour mini bus ride home rather than the 2 hour bus ride home with the extra money.

You went home to your nice AC beautiful woman and had enough time left in your day to enjoy them both.

You won the war, and that my friend is what really matters. So I am with you, why sweat the small stuff. My wife (Thai) is the one that really gets bothered by it. She does not like anyone ripping of her husband, which I think it is really about she doesn't want to have less in her bank account.

Any how,

Cheers

[wintermute]

. From a Western perspective, the backing off after reaching a deal would be a breach of contract, at least as a general matter. With Japanese or Thai businessmen and their lawyers, it would more likely be understood that there would be further price negotiations after the first "deal" is reached.

I don't think you have a clue what Thai culture is about. If you go with Thai people and they are consistently charged the stated menu prices without "flexible cultural pricing" or whatever armchair sociology nonsense you're spouting then your theory is crap. It's as simple as that. If you've ever done business in the more developed asian countries you'd know that in many cases verbal agreements are also legally binding like they are in the west. It may not be that way in Thailand but this country is also one that enjoys sky high "third world" corruption levels that puts it on the same level as countries like Indonesia and the Phillipines.

To put it another way, absolutes in human interactions aren't so absolute in Thailand. Black isn't so black and white isn't so white. Things generally are more gray, more flexible and more open to revision.

The treatment of menu prices is merely one particular manifestation of this. And one will never be truly at peace in Thailand if one can't undertstand that and have a strategy for dealing with it and then let it go.

If that's the case then it should be equally possible that you can pay less and get away with it if thai human interactions were so flexible. Try it sometime and see how fast your cultural theories come crashing down on your head.

Edited May 4, 2007 by wintermute

[Begbie]

Bridge definitely burned. If I were you, I would go again at least once and give them another try. When ordering, say gai yang, 80 baht, chai mai, pointing to the menu. I think they will get the message.

Not a great idea to be smart-ass to people who are handling and preparing your food for obvious reasons.

[dumspero]

Wintermute- I've seen Thais doing various variable pricing/soft scamming/hard scamming with each other, and I've seen it in Thailand and a number of other places.

Well, I've been involved with large businesses as clients and parties on the other side of the table who are based in Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong and China, as well as what you might consider less developed places. And I've seen exactly what I'm talking about. Sure, it's not absolute and of course written contracts and even verbal ones can be binding in those places, but you're kidding yourself if you don't think that it's common in East Asia for big business representatives to come back to the table after others thought there was a deal in place. You're also kidding yourself if you think, as a general matter, that absolutes are as absolute in Thailand and other East Asian countries as they are in the West.

I understand that part of the menu thing and similar stuff is just scamming, but I also understand from my 20 years' experience with Thais that there's more going on that causes that stuff to be so widespread and not such a big deal to them as it seems to be to some foreigners.

Finally, I understand that people's opinions vary, but since you accused me of just having armchair experience, what's your experience? How many years with Thais, etc.?

[dumspero]

Wintermute- Never mind. Just checked your recent posts and every single one is negative, negative, negative against Thais and Thailand. I get it now. Sorry I didn't check before responding to your post.

[Maigo6]

Thai's are human beings - they dont act as one, they act as individuals. And there are bad apples amongst them.

This part of your post actually makes sense, but I doubt the Thai bashers on this Forum will understand it.

[Maigo6]

And many of them havent yet realised that we foreigners often vote with our feet.

So, as hoardes of Farangs arrive daily in Thailand, it can't be that bad can it, or are Farangs just plain masochists?

[kmart]

Bridge definitely burned. If I were you, I would go again at least once and give them another try. When ordering, say gai yang, 80 baht, chai mai, pointing to the menu. I think they will get the message.

Not a great idea to be smart-ass to people who are handling and preparing your food for obvious reasons.

Roger that. Usually best to complain or make a fuss after your meal is delivered. Unless you want the "special".

[Soju]

Agree with Morty here, let the missus order in Thai eateries. Mines the same as Morty's in that she never leaves more than 20baht

Same-same with my wife. Restaurants, bell-boys, or any other service gets a maximum 20 Baht tip. Must be the norm for Thai's. Even when I'm alone in Thailand I've adopted her tipping method and never gotten any complaints. Hey, it's much more than I tip in Korea where nobody expects a tip for anything.

[Furbie]

A problem i often find is that the staff cant add up. My missus ALWAYS checks the bill - no matter how long it is - and makes the waiter stand there whilst she does it. If its wrong in any way, back it goes. She smiles and is polite of course, as we all should be. The bill is OFTEN wrong though. She says this is nothing to do with me being foreign - it even happens back home in Nakon Si Nowhere. They just aint that bright.

Like the OP says - it aint about the money - its the principle. And i agree.

If you live in a tourist zone - just keep paying the money and see how much the prices go up.

Look, for example, at tourist places with lots of scandinavians who will just pay anything if you want evidence. They tried it on with me once in ko Lanta. Songthaw full of scandinavians paid the extra 20 baht each. I said call the cops and paid the agreed and advertised rate.

I dont like getting ripped off ANYWHERE.

I agree completely, checking the bill in Thailand is a MUST. The percentage of bills I receive that have an error is above 50% - usually in the establishments favor, but sometimes in mine. Generally, they will correct it with a minimum of fuss. The worst offenders are bars, but it also happens in restaurants and even hotels (got charged an extra night twice in Pattaya) especially with mini-bars, which is why I always fill out the form now.

dumspero - you are right, these things do happen at all levels in Thai society, but like with countries everywhere, they happen more in tourist areas – meaning we are more susceptible to it as Westerners living in these areas. However, it seems to happen with alarming frequency in Thailand. I am a bill checker - I have not yet had an altered bill in Cambodia, Vietnam, the Philippines, Hong Kong, Shanghai or Singapore, despite frequent travel. The reason, I believe, is that these places are a bit more concerned about their customers than local Thai businesses. For example, in five years in Thailand, I have never once gotten a free drink or a free appetizer, what have you, at a Thai establishment. In Hanoi, three restaurants in a row gave us free appetizers or deserts on the last visit. In the Philippines and Cambodia, I have received many free drinks, and free doubles from bartenders, owners and managers – NEVER in Thailand. The concern for repeat business here in Thailand is just not strong.

Back to the bill and rip-offs - that is not to say I have not had a lot of people TRY to rip me off, especially in the Philippines, but the bill has always been correct and matched the menu or promotional sign. While I avoid the known rip-off places in Thailand, it does not seem to stop the frequency with which this occurs.

On double pricing, one of my saddest double pricing experiences was finding out that Sudah (sp), a very popular Thai restaurant on Sukhumvit Soi 14, has double pricing on lunch items. I could not believe it; I ate there for two years before finding out, used to speak with the lady who runs the place all the time – only to find out she is charging me more than the Thai sitting next to me.

[kmart]

I think that its important to mention that a lot of the "rip-offs" and increases in your bills aren't personal, even though you might regard it as an affront.

The appearance of your percieved ability to pay might get you at least a few different prices; bills or quotations: eg; If you were dark-skinned and of Isaan appearance; well-heeled Thai; smartly-dressed expat or teacher who can speak (some or reasonable) Thai; or obvious tourist with Hawaian shirt and a camera around the neck, then I bet you would get 4 different prices quoted to you, in most situations; maybe even at a top hotel chain...?

Profit margins are low in the markets, restaurants, hotels, etc; because of lots of competition. Your appearance of percieved wealth could be a factor.

[colino]

I have this problem as mentioned about the principle of being ripped off ,

my thai wife doesnt seem to understand its not the money no matter if its 10 baht or a 100 baht, its the principal of it that gets my back up , ie, future park rangsit taxi's (outside big c). as soon as they see me with my shopping they start ,,no meter no meter, meter no good ,,and try to charge me double the fare, so now after a few choice words i walk past them(10 metres) and get a cab with no probs ,

[Wellyoudidask]

we aint done yet.............lol.

now i know why thais will take advantage of farangs. the farangs are just like rocky balboa. they lead with their chin just asking to be smacked, and when the thai smacks em they go back for more.

Heres one i dont get, my wife will never ask for a discount, on anything, me, everything ,and i normally get it, so, are the thais charging the thais more in a sense, or is the wife just happy to give another thai the asking price,. but she will go all over town to get beer cheaper ! funny old lot

[Wellyoudidask]

Recently, I found a new restaurant on a quiet soi not far from my apartment. It's an Isaan restaurant, serving such tasty treats as som tam, kao moo yang and nom took moo. The tables are spread out in a banana grove, providing a relaxing, private atmosphere with the sounds of birds chirping instead of engines revving.

Today I went there for lunch with my girlfriend. When we received the bill, we were surprised to see a different total than what we'd expected. It wasn't much higher, but enough to catch our attention.

My girlfriend asked why the prices on the bill weren't the same as the prices on the menu. The waiter clearly was caught off guard, and spewed out some bs story about how it was an old menu from an old restaurant, and the prices were different now. We knew that was crap for many reasons, and my girlfriend politely told him that he shouldn't charge a different price than what was on the menu. And in fact, on our previous visit they hadn't. But this time they smelled farang money and got greedy, and tried to overcharge us in spite of having prices clearly written on the menu.

Now, it's not the money that bothers me. The difference was only about 40 baht. But it's the principle of being ripped off. I just can't understand people who have such a petty mentality. By attempting to steal 40 baht, they've now lost my future business. I probably would have gone there a few times a week, and I always tip . But now I'll never go back.

This is not a unique experience. This happens more often than I'd like to admit, and it's beginning to drive me crazy! Anyone else have similar experiences?

Either get used to it or from now on when you order food tell the waiter how much your order costs , works everytime .

Point at it on the menu and pay up front !

[colino]

Yeah wellyoudidask

my wifes the same never never asks for a discount just hands the dosh over, so now when shopping on the markets i lean over her shoulder and if something costs 250baht i say 200 ok, and low and behold ok ,, maybe im missing something

[Wellyoudidask]

A problem i often find is that the staff cant add up. My missus ALWAYS checks the bill - no matter how long it is - and makes the waiter stand there whilst she does it. If its wrong in any way, back it goes. She smiles and is polite of course, as we all should be. The bill is OFTEN wrong though. She says this is nothing to do with me being foreign - it even happens back home in Nakon Si Nowhere. They just aint that bright.

Like the OP says - it aint about the money - its the principle. And i agree.

If you live in a tourist zone - just keep paying the money and see how much the prices go up.

Look, for example, at tourist places with lots of scandinavians who will just pay anything if you want evidence. They tried it on with me once in ko Lanta. Songthaw full of scandinavians paid the extra 20 baht each. I said call the cops and paid the agreed and advertised rate.

I dont like getting ripped off ANYWHERE.

I agree completely, checking the bill in Thailand is a MUST. The percentage of bills I receive that have an error is above 50% - usually in the establishments favor, but sometimes in mine. Generally, they will correct it with a minimum of fuss. The worst offenders are bars, but it also happens in restaurants and even hotels (got charged an extra night twice in Pattaya) especially with mini-bars, which is why I always fill out the form now.

dumspero - you are right, these things do happen at all levels in Thai society, but like with countries everywhere, they happen more in tourist areas – meaning we are more susceptible to it as Westerners living in these areas. However, it seems to happen with alarming frequency in Thailand. I am a bill checker - I have not yet had an altered bill in Cambodia, Vietnam, the Philippines, Hong Kong, Shanghai or Singapore, despite frequent travel. The reason, I believe, is that these places are a bit more concerned about their customers than local Thai businesses. For example, in five years in Thailand, I have never once gotten a free drink or a free appetizer, what have you, at a Thai establishment. In Hanoi, three restaurants in a row gave us free appetizers or deserts on the last visit. In the Philippines and Cambodia, I have received many free drinks, and free doubles from bartenders, owners and managers – NEVER in Thailand. The concern for repeat business here in Thailand is just not strong.

Back to the bill and rip-offs - that is not to say I have not had a lot of people TRY to rip me off, especially in the Philippines, but the bill has always been correct and matched the menu or promotional sign. While I avoid the known rip-off places in Thailand, it does not seem to stop the frequency with which this occurs.

On double pricing, one of my saddest double pricing experiences was finding out that Sudah (sp), a very popular Thai restaurant on Sukhumvit Soi 14, has double pricing on lunch items. I could not believe it; I ate there for two years before finding out, used to speak with the lady who runs the place all the time – only to find out she is charging me more than the Thai sitting next to me.

I have been ripped off twice at the exchange counters in bkk, once a mistake, 2 , !

[Wellyoudidask]

Yeah wellyoudidask

my wifes the same never never asks for a discount just hands the dosh over, so now when shopping on the markets i lean over her shoulder and if something costs 250baht i say 200 ok, and low and behold ok ,, maybe im missing something

Im glad its not just mine,..

[Tod Daniels]

This is far from a unique experience. It is well known thais will attempt to overcharge foreigners IF they think they can get away with it. Usually the thai person you’re with is reluctant to cause a problem and ask a question due to the ever present ‘face’ conundrum which governs most illogical behavior here in the glorious “Land ‘O Thais”. While this may seem like I am painting with a broad brush I have seen it happen too many times to count.

Then again finding food from อีสาน is rarely an ordeal here in Krung Thep, so another restaurant may be in order. If you want to eat there again, I would do as the poster Furbie suggested, ask for the menu, add up the prices and leave that exact amount.

I rarely if ever tip here in the glorious "Land 'O Thais". Even in beer bars I'll take all the change off the tray; many times holding up the two 10 baht coins saying why isn't this a 20baht bill? Sorry I'm not on holiday, play those games with the 'tourists', not with me. When I am out with middle class thai friends, I hardly ever see them tip either, saying for normal service a tip isn't required.

I also pay taxi fares almost to the baht, and have waited many times to get into a taxi while the thai getting out dug in their purse for the exact change.

Do the thais think I am ขี้เหนียว? Thankfully I am NOT thai; it would then stand to reason; I can't 'lose face' either, so it is of less than no concern what they think about me.

To all the mindless foreign ‘sock puppets’ who live here and accept this type of behavior because "it is a poor country and their people make little in comparison to the west". I say; You may choose to become one with this xenophobic Borg-like; ‘we-b-thai’ collective, but I do not.

ขอให้โชคดี

[Maigo6]

Even in beer bars I'll take all the change off the tray; many times holding up the two 10 baht coins saying why isn't this a 20baht bill?

English teacher ?

[blizzard]

in my 4 years of coming here, bangkok, i have yet to see a thai lady leaave anything other than 1 baht coins as tip. maybe 3 or 4. its not bashing its just their culture. last night middle age thai lady with farang eat at that foodland counter place in nana area. they have 2 regular meals , check about 350 baht. lady looks at change, including 20 baht bill, yet leaves 3 baht , must have been intended as tip.

are thai men same same as girls when it comes to tipping. i like watching women.....lol.

internet shop advertises 120 minutes for 100 baht in patpong. i stay for 117 minutes. how much should i be charged?

it depends i had a 100 baht bill ready to pay,fine pay and leave.

the lady want charge me 117 baht.

guys its the money as i didnt care about freakin principle, i told lady wait 3 minutes and turn off my computer , didnt know if she understood what i said. she acted like she was giving me 17 baht discount and told me to go...............lol.

its not unusual for low level thai employees noy to understand basic things. also many time i found if you stay for more than an hour they dont know how to figure out how much minutes you used.

at first i helped them but that got old real fast, the face thing. so if they charged me less i would just thank god........lol.

[kmart]

Even in beer bars I'll take all the change off the tray; many times holding up the two 10 baht coins saying why isn't this a 20baht bill?

English teacher ?

Careful! You might get a warning for "abuse."

[bkkmadness]

I also pay taxi fares almost to the baht, and have waited many times to get into a taxi while the thai getting out dug in their purse for the exact change.

I did that when I was backpacking, but then I found out you generally round up the bill to the nearest 5 baht or the taxi driver rounds it down to the nearest 5 baht. It's a matter of convenience more than anything.

[blizzard]

people bash cabbies yet they round down. seems cabbies here are misunderstood......lol. im getting the vibe from farangs that its a good idea to keep thais poor.

Edited May 4, 2007 by blizzard

[colino]

Most taxi's are very good and will be very helpful and pleasent.. its like any walk of life you get a few bad apples ,, its just unfortunate that they prey on us non thais ,,

[soundman]

people bash cabbies yet they round down. seems cabbies here are misunderstood......lol. im getting the vibe from farangs that its a good idea to keep thais poor.

And how, pray tell, did you arrive at that conclusion?

Soundman.

[blizzard]

is that an insult sir?............lol.

you tell me if you agree or disagree. my feelings have been hurt as ive been accused of being negative.......lol.

im quite a jolly fellow, dark humour is hard to understand.

[soundman]

is that an insult sir?............lol.

you tell me if you agree or disagree. my feelings have been hurt as ive been accused of being negative.......lol.

im quite a jolly fellow, dark humour is hard to understand.

Since English is obviously not your mother tongue I will not even try to understand how you thought it was an insult.

I'll just put the question in slightly simpler form...

Why do you think falang's want to keep Thai people poor?

Soundman.