Shocking price bombshell for minimal work

[bodga]

Ok so some concrete around my pond  slid  into the pond and I needed a  company to put some piles in and then re do the concrete part.Wife contacted a company they came and looked and  gave us a price of 193k baht............I thought it was expensive but it was  a bit difficult, they said they would bring machines to do it and to drain my pond. See  photos  of what happened, the length is  38 metres x 2.5  metres deep. So they came and had a  look and asked me if  I wanted concrete on the top where I walk instead of the stone, I said yes. 

They have been asking for money as work progresses BUT  tonight  comes the real kicker, they say its only  for the piles and the beam NOT to do the concrete slope.....the whole  point of doing it.

The beam   is 12inch square and they were  supposed to put 2 metres  piles but then when they came they said the ground was too hard and said  they would  cut them in half and  put 25  between 1 metre and 50 cm deep. To cut them they used a sledgehammer and just smashed the hell out of them, I stopped them and gave them my 9  inch grinder to cut them. Most arent even 60cm after they smashed the tops  off

The workers  did not use any pile driver they just dropped them in a hole they dug buy hand in 1  day, then  stood  on a bit  of wood and stamped them in. No concrete around the piles at  all.

They then proceeded to get a lump  hammer and smash the heads off them rough as can be.

They mixed  all the concrete which was like water by hand no ready mix , no vibrator.

Ok so the work isnt brilliant BUT tonight  when we said we  wont pay anymore until the beam is finished at the  bottom , they announce .......that 193 k is  just for the beam only NOT the sloping concrete which is nothing like what they told us when they came..in fact I asked them how  long to do it and they said ONE  month so for sure they knew it included the concrete sloped part also. They had 6  workers here for 2  days doing the pile s shoddily, then 4  workers including one man of 72 for 3  days, another day and the beam will be done total  6 days work cost 193 k Do you think this is a massive cash grab?  Piles were 20 x 2  metres in fact they werent really piles they were like large fence posts if you  look in the picture. Here is there drawing showing what they planned including  the concrete , heres their quote.

Ive calculated materials at about 30-35k inc  labour

 

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by bodga

[kingofthemountain]

43 minutes ago, bodga said:

Do you think this is a massive cash grab? 

 

For me it's obvious yes

the work could be done for probably half of this amount, maybe even less

but with covid it seems a lot of people try to take advantage of the situation

 

No any thai in his right ming would pay this amount for this work

 

Can i ask why you asked to only one company for the pricing ?

 

I would asked at least to 2, if there is no difference you know the price is in the range

 

i don't want to be disrepectful but since it's your wife that found and call this company

are you 200% sure she doesn't have a payback, sharing with the guys the fact that they 

could ask this amount of money, charging you double tarif  and it wasn't really a problem

for you, untill they ask for more? What does she think about them asking more to do the job?

 

She agrees with that or she is ready to grab the guy by the bol...cks and insult him ?

Edited December 14, 2020 by kingofthemountain

[bodga]

10 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

 

For me it's obvious yes

the work could be done for probably half of this amount, maybe even less

but with covid it seems a lot of people try to take advantage of the situation

Can i ask why you asked to only one company for the pricing ?

I would asked at least to 2, if there is no difference you know the price is in the range

i don't want to be disrepectful but since it's your wife that found and call this company

are you 200% sure she doesn't have a payback, sharing with the guys the fact that they 

could ask this amount of money, charging you double tarif  and it wasn't really a problem

for you, untill they ask for more? What does she think about them asking more to do the job?

She agrees with that or she is ready to grab the guy by the bol...cks and insult him ?

My Wife is  100%  ok, we couldnt find another pile company LOCALLY, I knew it was expensive but just wanted it done, Ive spent 8 years doing EVERYTHING at this  land myself, this concrete slid  in due to heavy rain. The point is they knew we wanted this concrete all done NOT  just a  beam. They even said about did I want concrete on top and measured the slope down to see how deep the concrete slab was. So its 193k for an 38 metre  beam with  piles  dropped in holes with no concrete around  them most not even 1  metre deep despite quote saying 2  metres and  even then they smashed off maybe 30cm of those that theyd  cut.when I say cut I mean smashed with a lump hammer as they had no cutter. Paid them 75 so far and theyre asking for another 30k now and then the bombshell of...its only for the beam.

Beam only  contains 10mm rebar 4  pieces in a square Ive added the whole  lot up to 35k inc  labour.

Its  not about asking for 193k its the saying now its ONLY for the beam not the sloped concrete. I accepted 193k to do ALL of  it not  just a  10inch square beam. Heres  what it  looked like before it slid  into the pond iits 2.5metres  deep and 38 metres  long 3  inch slabs I made with a  metal frame

Edited December 14, 2020 by bodga

[Dumbastheycome]

So far sounds  bogus . Do You have a quote in writing . Do you have photo/video evidence they are  not  working to the  quote?

For  193,000 I'd  come with  my  BIL and do it   ! lol

[kingofthemountain]

Yes i get it

when you decide for a price at the begining, the works has to be done

and if i am not mistaken (someone reading the Thai, maybe your wife, could confirm that)

their pricing include all the work, not only the beam.

What is the point for them to put a price on half of the work.

I understand it's the only company in your vicinity but honestly the work they have done so far

is not professional at all, and looking at the photos of the pile i will be worry about the future of all of this.

Some locals under your direction had probably done a better job for less than 50 000

Edited December 14, 2020 by kingofthemountain

[kingofthemountain]

6 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

So far sounds  bogus . Do You have a quote in writing . Do you have photo/video evidence they are  not  working to the  quote?

For  193,000 I'd  come with  my  BIL and do it   ! lol

i am ready to help too lol

i have done an entire house (80 m2 and top noch materials) with 5 thai workers

6 months of work for 700 000 bahts

i know the concrete is more expensive than 5 years ago but come on...

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by kingofthemountain

[Natai Beach]

The contract clearly just says 38 sao kem (piles) and 1500 baht for transport at 4,700 each. And that’s it. 

 

Your fault for not reading the contract.

Their work looks a bit bodgey. 

[kingofthemountain]

Also what is the point to put the piles at half of the slide?

 

The piles are supposed to stop the concrete to slide. so like you can see 

on the drawing just above the quote, they need to be at the base of the concrete, not half way

at the place where they are on the photo (And they are not deep enough anyway) they will stop the superior part of the concrete to slide, but not the inferior part.

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by kingofthemountain

[bodga]

17 minutes ago, Natai Beach said:

The contract clearly just says 38 sao kem (piles) and 1500 baht for transport at 4,700 each. And that’s it. 

 

Your fault for not reading the contract.

Their work looks a bit bodgey. 

any opinion on the exorbitant price? it was 15000 for transport that we already told them to remove as they never  brought any machines at  all and thats  what the 15k was for. Also they knew and its  pretty  obvious what we wanted done.

[bodga]

38 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

So far sounds  bogus . Do You have a quote in writing . Do you have photo/video evidence they are  not  working to the  quote?

For  193,000 I'd  come with  my  BIL and do it   ! lol

Quote attached

[bodga]

Hmm so what should I do now? Lets see first if they demand  full payment or are simply  going to walk away from it, Theyve had 75k already,  I will have to show substandard work I guess so  ill be out with the camera in the morning, the concrete theyve done is like a banana they didnt use steel  forms just some old  plywood, the concrete was  mixed  to water thickness. the piles  were smashed with a lump hammer in half until i lent them my 9 inch  angle grinder they should  have been 2  metres  deep but werent they said ground to hard. They "piled" them in  with 4  men standing on a piece of wood most are not more than 80cm one is  about 1.5 metres, no concrete around  the holes  just loose  soil.

[worgeordie]

1 hour ago, bodga said:

25  between 1 metre and 50 cm deep.

That's not going to be deep enough to keep everything behind it

sliding into the pond,the house next to ours got a pile driving crane

in and put metal sheets into the river bank ,the sheets must have

been 10 meters long ,sunk 7 meters down, good luck.

regards worgeordie

[CharlieH]

You have two options as I see it.

 

1. Sit down with them, point out your concerns and try to reach a satisfactory solutionn and maybe a re-do.

 

2. Kick them off the job completely, be prepared for repercussions and get someone else to do it properly as per your agreed spec.

 

If you go option one, itemise it, agree it, sign it both parties.

 

If you go option 2, expose fully what has been done, document and record it and be prepared for a lengthy fight.

 

Personally I would try option 1 first. The stress and worry of all this must be horrendous. If you cant resolve it to your spec and satisfaction, kick them off and get a proper company and insist they comment on whats been done to date and the remedial work needed.

[kingofthemountain]

3 minutes ago, bodga said:

Hmm so what should I do now? Lets see first if they demand  full payment or are simply  going to walk away from it, Theyve had 75k already,  I will have to show substandard work I guess so  ill be out with the camera in the morning, the concrete theyve done is like a banana they didnt use steel  forms just some old  plywood, the concrete was  mixed  to water thickness. the piles  were smashed with a lump hammer in half until i lent them my 9 inch  angle grinder they should  have been 2  metres  deep but werent they said ground to hard. They "piled" them in  with 4  men standing on a piece of wood most are not more than 80cm one is  about 1.5 metres, no concrete around  the holes  just loose  soil.

It's a difficult question

you know already you are paying too much for a dodgy work

wich you will have to do it again in few years

on the other hand they have a contract signed by you

if i was you, first i will ask the missus (And maybe a Thai man with a brain in the family

or in the vicinity just to have a Thai advice on the subject)

Personaly i will go full Thai style, waiting the situation to root with the time

don't contact them, don't stay on site, move on a 2 months holidays in another place

as they know they are not 100% clear on this one maybe they will let you go

and that's it

[bodga]

3 minutes ago, worgeordie said:

That's not going to be deep enough to keep everything behind it

sliding into the pond,the house next to ours got a pile driving crane

in and put metal sheets into the river bank ,the sheets must have

been 10 meters long ,sunk 7 meters down, good luck.

regards worgeordie

Im waiting to see now if they demand  any more or  full payment before I totally trash their work, they already say the job is finished for them ie  they wont be coming back and I  lose 75k.

The ground  is  very hard here Its  not  mud theres a lot of stone in it and I mean BIG stone metre across size. I dont think you could drive in 7metres.

[bodga]

1 minute ago, kingofthemountain said:

It's a difficult question

you know already you are paying too much for a dodgy work

wich you will have to do it again in few years

on the other hand they have a contract signed by you

if i was you, first i will ask the missus (And maybe a Thai man with a brain in the family

or in the vicinity just to have a Thai advice on the subject)

Personaly i will go full Thai style, waiting the situation to root with the time

don't contact them, don't stay on site, move on a 2 months holidays in another place

as they know they are not 100% clear on this one maybe they will let you go

and that's it

The workers ( local guys) inc 72  year old  man I will leave their tools  outside in the morning, when I say tools I mean a  broken sledgehammer a very worn mattock and pick axe and a few  buckets nothing of any value. Also 10  bags of boon daeng cement Ill keep and a bit of wood  formwork.

[bodga]

3 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

on the other hand they have a contract signed by you

I didnt sign anything thats their signature Ill have to ask the wife if  she signed it or  not

[kingofthemountain]

6 minutes ago, bodga said:

The ground  is  very hard here Its  not  mud theres a lot of stone in it and I mean BIG stone metre across size. I dont think you could drive in 7metres.

that exactly the reason why a serious company would have done a ground survey first

then they would use special reinforced sharp piles and a mechanic engine to push them

into the ground. Then the price would have been justified

Instead you have a 3 world country work with a 1 world country price

Edited December 14, 2020 by kingofthemountain

[worgeordie]

3 minutes ago, bodga said:

Im waiting to see now if they demand  any more or  full payment before I totally trash their work, they already say the job is finished for them ie  they wont be coming back and I  lose 75k.

The ground  is  very hard here Its  not  mud theres a lot of stone in it and I mean BIG stone metre across size. I dont think you could drive in 7metres.

With a piledriver they could,as long as not bedrock,anyway you are going to have to get

something done before next rainy season,as that wall at the top will be coming down next.

 

What are you  doing with the pond anyway, ?

regards worgeordie

[kingofthemountain]

4 minutes ago, bodga said:

I didnt sign anything thats their signature Ill have to ask the wife if  she signed it or  not

If she signed say her she has to pay now, not your problem ????

 

just kidding of course

[bodga]

2 minutes ago, worgeordie said:

What are you  doing with the pond anyway

plan to drown myself in it at this  rate.

[bodga]

6 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

that exactly the reason why a serious company would have done a ground survey first

then they would use special reinforced sharp piles and a mechanic engine to push them

into the ground. Then the price would have been justified

Instead you have a 3 world country work with a 1 world country price

Thanks for the info, If  it gets to court Ill need some advice on what they should  have done

[kingofthemountain]

3 minutes ago, worgeordie said:

What are you  doing with the pond anyway, ?

it it's a fish pond, it will take around 200 years to pay for all the work

[kingofthemountain]

3 minutes ago, bodga said:

plan to drown myself in it at this  rate.

On a serious note, the accidents in a ponds are not unusual in thailand

particularly if you have childs coming on your land

the steeper the slope, the greater the risk, i personaly

would opt for a gentler slope if i was you

[kingofthemountain]

10 minutes ago, bodga said:

Thanks for the info, If  it gets to court Ill need some advice on what they should  have done

You are welcome

if you want to know what i am talking about you can look at the photos 

in the page 3 of this topic, the last post of Isan farang (15 june 2019)

 

 

 

[kingofthemountain]

33 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

You have two options as I see it.

 

1. Sit down with them, point out your concerns and try to reach a satisfactory solutionn and maybe a re-do.

 

2. Kick them off the job completely, be prepared for repercussions and get someone else to do it properly as per your agreed spec.

 

If you go option one, itemise it, agree it, sign it both parties.

 

If you go option 2, expose fully what has been done, document and record it and be prepared for a lengthy fight.

 

Personally I would try option 1 first. The stress and worry of all this must be horrendous. If you cant resolve it to your spec and satisfaction, kick them off and get a proper company and insist they comment on whats been done to date and the remedial work needed.

The option 1 sounds a good option

if you alllow me to add something, i will try to find

a Thai with a good level (Maybe a teacher or the mayor, idealy able to understand

a little bit of english) to play the role of a neutral intermediary in the negociation

i will avoid the direct face to face confrontation with the Thai worker, it gives rarely

good results in Thailand, a lot of hotheads, alcool and face saving issue in the mix

[bodga]

44 minutes ago, CharlieH said:

You have two options as I see it.

 

1. Sit down with them, point out your concerns and try to reach a satisfactory solutionn and maybe a re-do.

 

2. Kick them off the job completely, be prepared for repercussions and get someone else to do it properly as per your agreed spec.

 

If you go option one, itemise it, agree it, sign it both parties.

 

If you go option 2, expose fully what has been done, document and record it and be prepared for a lengthy fight.

 

Personally I would try option 1 first. The stress and worry of all this must be horrendous. If you cant resolve it to your spec and satisfaction, kick them off and get a proper company and insist they comment on whats been done to date and the remedial work needed.

I  think my Wife has "done" with the talking part with them, she is  appalled at what they have done. Ive told her to leave it and see if they pursue  it  or  not, we  will gather our evidence for a fight. I know for a  fact the materials and labour used amount to about 35K tops so they are 40k up. Thats  24 lengths of steel 10mm rebar, 20 bags  boon daeng cement, 3  cubes of  sand 3  of stone , bit of secondhand  shuttering thin ply and some eucalypt wood  stakes 6 men for 2  days to dig the holes by hand then 4  men for 3  days labour one of whom was 72 and had trouble walking....oh yeah and the co owner who called himself an engineer and sat on his backside  all day just stuck a theodolite out on show but didnt do anything with it and that was after we said they didnt seem professional he showed  up as they didnt even have a nylon fishing line to get the forms straight and had  nothing to cut the piles in half with  except a sledgehammer.

[bodga]

13 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

The option 1 sounds a good option

if you alllow me to add something, i will try to find

a Thai with a good level (Maybe a teacher or the mayor, idealy able to understand

a little bit of english) to play the role of a neutral intermediary in the negociation

i will avoid the direct face to face confrontation with the Thai worker, it gives rarely

good results in Thailand, a lot of hotheads, alcool and face saving issue in the mix

They already have informed us the job is  over ie work  has ceased completely. Ive stuck their meagre  tools  out in the road.

[bodga]

as an example of our "soil" here is what a makro shifted about 9 years  ago

[Natai Beach]

10 hours ago, bodga said:

The workers  did not use any pile driver they just dropped them in a hole they dug buy hand in 1  day

cant believe you let them continue. I would have told them to leave if they were going to do it by hand. 
 

It is an obvious bodge job. The price is slightly high for a professional job but not that much considering the angle etc. 

 

Personally I would get a professional piling “engineer“ to come and to assess it and then they can explain clearly to these cowboys why it is rubbish. Then you pressure them to do it properly which they can’t/won’t want to do. 
 

Find out how much they paid for the piles, work out how much they paid for the workers, give them that amount and tell them to f...off. 
 

Next time read the contract and stop them immediately if they are doing it wrong.

 

I have had built a lot in Thailand, the trick is be a hothead and yell if they are not doing “best practice” and then buy them snacks, drinks be friendly later on. You have to make them scared of you, friendly doesn’t work, they will always take the easy way if they think you are weak. (That advice came from a Thai builder years ago).

 

Dont worry about “Thai culture” on a building site. You are paying, you are the boss, you are “above them” they have to wai first, they have to respect you.
Softly, friendly, polite doesn’t work on Thai construction sites, you get respect being a hard cant. Otherwise they take the <deleted>.

 

Another big mistake you did was only get one quote. Get two or three it will ALWAYS be cheaper.