Life With A Toddler

[Valjean]

I am 50+ and living with my gf in Bankok. Back home in America I have two children – both recently out of college. My gf has a two year old – thai/farang. We’ve known each other for a year and a half and set up a house together a few months ago. When I started dating here I knew I didn’t want to start a family over again – if I met a woman with kids that was fine as I like children and family life. I did visualize children more in the 10+ range.

My problem is this two year old. Yes I know the terrible twos . What I’m struggling with is sorting out: am I just too old and impatient for a toddler or is the relaxed Thai way of bringing up children too lax for me or is this a child that in any culture that needs more discipline?? With my own children it all seemed so natural – what the limits were, when to accept behaviors with a grin and when a swat to the bottom or a timeout was in order. I am sure part of the challenge is the transition between dating and marriage where my father role is in flux. I think my ex and I were in the scheme of things quite easy going and liberal parents – I’m not a control freak. Or at least I wasn’t 20 years ago.

And that’s part of what has me really confused and with a certain loss of confidence. Am I just an old crusty fart or should I just step in and say these are the rules and be a consistent figure? I feel half in half out of the situation and unsure of how to behave.

We don’t have a live in maid – if my gf is gone the maid, or her teen daughter, sometimes stay here and help out. The past weeks a 9 year old nephew has spent his vacation with us and the maid’s 9 year old daughter as well as the teen are regulars hanging out at the house and doing weekend activities with me. I love kids and don’t mind a household of them. These two 9 year olds and other Thai children I know are so well behaved, easy going, easy to have around and respectful. So I see this two year old and the “let him do most anything” approach and I can’t argue with the result 5-10 years down the road. There does seem to be a method to the madness.

So this evening he takes a marking pen to the 80,000 baht new sofa – ok it was beyond stupid to buy such a thing with a toddler lose on the house but my gf loved it so I bought it. She didn’t say much to him when she saw what he did. No repercussions. As she tries to take the cushions to clean (we all know this is hopeless) he jumps in with another pen again. Poor boy is caught in the act bare-bottomed (better for peeing anywhere on the floor) and I give him a swat on the bottom. I think good for him but who knows.

I will say my GF, bless her heart, has given me permission with little second guessing, to act like this boy’s father. In a post I had before here about car seats she 100% got on board for this and helmets on motorcycles and was willing to take my side versus her mom. Her mom did stay here awhile however aside from my gf’s issues with her I’d say the parenting there was so totally catering to his every whim and need that it started to drive me nuts.

I think I’m rambling….

How do I know if I am just too old to do this again?

How and when do I start to assert myself?

How do I balance the American style versus the Thai style?

Is it possible the toddler is the deal breaker in this relationship? How do I mitigate this?

I know there is an element that I do want help in the house. I raised our two kids when we were young and struggling – that’s not for me. I never felt being a hands off father but I wonder what the right balance is between having support and just being a spectator. When the gf’s mom was here I’d say it was nice from the perspective of help. Should I insist on a live in nanny?

What a mess. I’m really discouraged. I love this woman with all my heart. I love kids. I’ve taken a 2 week vacation in Thailand before I moved here and volunteered to teach English in a public school here in Bangkok – twice. But this two year old has gotten under my skin. I worry I don’t even like him – and I know he really is starting to adore me.

Advice on this confusions of issues. It’s worse than a bowl of spaghetti.

Thanks!

[Neeranam]

Hi,

You're not that old, unless you're well over 50. I know some guys who had kids here in Thailand in their 60s.

My advice is chill out - the toddler stage soon passes.

Be firm with the gf and the boy. Get a stick and whack them both if the boy is allowed to damage things. Only joking!

The big problem in relationships I've seen with young Thai women(with kids, especially boys) and elder farang is the boys getting to whatever they want. The mother is kinda given a choice - her blood son or a foreign husband/bf. I've never heard of a mother siding with the husband. You've got to get the rules sorted out right now! I wish you luck.

What do you think the Thai father would do if the toddler damaged something worth 80,000 baht? What did you do? He already must think he can get away with anything.

[farangsay]

Having read your post all I can pick up is one incident with a felt-tip and a sofa.

Having raised four kids (albeit in my younger days) jeez could I tell you some

stories.

The sofa incident seems to revolve around the initial thing , your GF's muted

reaction and the kid's repetition of the action.

A few things come to mind.

She was probably mortified by the incident (I presume you payed for the sofa)

and wanted to play down the incident.

The child didn't understand there had been any wrongdoing.

When a child does something wrong , you need to explain clearly it was wrong.

You seem to have a good relationship with your girlfriend therefore you should

have a serious but non-confrontational talk together on the subject.

She may have worries how to keep a balance between you (50+) and her child

(2+).

You need to explain that you need to work together on the issue and it is not

fair for her to play good cop while you play bad cop.

A two year old is rarely irredeemable. In fact sofa>felt tips ? You might have

a budding artist on your hands. Buy some more felt tips and some drawing paper.

I'm sure you and your family will have many happy years together.

[Valjean]

Yes I do think there was an element where she was shocked into inaction by the magnitude of the incident. It was a major work of art with a big black felt tip pen. I suspect if he had written on her leg or something the quick slap to the hand would have come. Still there is more of an allowance for climbing on things, getting into thing, breaking things, throwing food on the floor, etc. than it’s my nature to tolerate. Bedtime is another issue – just a little more structure in things would help.

The advice is good that we need to talk this over. She’s really open minded and willing to change to make our family work. I guess I need to get on with crossing the river and be the boy’s dad even if the future isn’t 100% clear. It won’t do him any good to have us be inconsistent and me have my responses be erratic.

Thanks for the advice – now it’s morning and a new day. Life goes on, sofas get older and used, children learn and old men maybe too.

[leisurely]

What larks. Seriously, do be consistently firm with him. You and your woman need to be saying the same thing so no good cop bad cop partnership. If one of you says no - rarely happens in Thailand in my experience, the other should say no too. At least that way he can't play you off against each other. I've learned this the hard way I am afraid. Mummy is nasty and mean, but Daddy is lovely and generous. Not anymore, it's our way our the highway now.

[wolfmanjack]

Yes I do think there was an element where she was shocked into inaction by the magnitude of the incident. It was a major work of art with a big black felt tip pen. I suspect if he had written on her leg or something the quick slap to the hand would have come. Still there is more of an allowance for climbing on things, getting into thing, breaking things, throwing food on the floor, etc. than it’s my nature to tolerate. Bedtime is another issue – just a little more structure in things would help.

The advice is good that we need to talk this over. She’s really open minded and willing to change to make our family work. I guess I need to get on with crossing the river and be the boy’s dad even if the future isn’t 100% clear. It won’t do him any good to have us be inconsistent and me have my responses be erratic.

Thanks for the advice – now it’s morning and a new day. Life goes on, sofas get older and used, children learn and old men maybe too.

I have 2 children here in thailand. I ended up being the one that handles all of the discipline and I do mean all. As a result my kids mind what I say but do not care what their mother says.

I noticed with my relatives that boys get spoiled beyond all belief until they get older. My sister in laws family was fairly strict with the daughter and lets the boy do anything he wants. Maybe that has something to so with it.

[wolfmanjack]

What larks. Seriously, do be consistently firm with him. You and your woman need to be saying the same thing so no good cop bad cop partnership. If one of you says no - rarely happens in Thailand in my experience, the other should say no too. At least that way he can't play you off against each other. I've learned this the hard way I am afraid. Mummy is nasty and mean, but Daddy is lovely and generous. Not anymore, it's our way our the highway now.

You can be the one dealing out the punishment and still be the loving parent. I am the one that has had to do all of the punishing. If I give them a time out i explain to them why. If I have to give them a spanking i explain to them why. I make sure that i hug them and tell them that i love them every day but not at punishment time. As a result when something happens, good or bad, the kids come to me. I am the one doing the punishing but I am also the one that they want to be with all of the time even though she is the one that buys them toys and candy every time they ask.

[Etrigan]

The fact that you have written in a forum asking for advice suggests to me that you're doing allright mate, instead of just blazing off your own way.

I only get mad at my kids if they did something that could hurt or endanger them. Marker pen to a sofa, take loads of photo's and laugh about it when he is 18. Reminds me of a scene at butlins from "On The Buses" movie, bottle of ink in a hotel room. Laugh it off mate, and all the best.

[Luckydog]

Oh Boy! I hear what you are saying Pal......

I won't try to advise you 'cos it would be useless!

Fact is that you are dealing with someone elses kid. NOT YOURS......

My last three happy relationships have all gone aground on the Rocks of HER CHILDREN!

I have been allowed to pay for everything in my house. But have no real authority over anyone.......Ugh.

I tried to teach the GFs 5yr old son some table manners the other day. Got a bit angry. Result?

A hysterical tirade lasting about 50minutes and much waving by herself, of a rather sharp knife in my direction!

Frankly, I am sick of other Mens progeny. They pay not a single Bht towards their childrens upbringing. So why the F should we?.

I guess we simply have to 'Shape up. Or Ship out' if the going makes us unhappy.

After all we came here, presumably, to have a happy life..................

God Bless and Good Luck.

[lannarebirth]

I'm imagining that a condo with an 80,000 baht sofa is probably furnished throughout in such a way that anything a 2 yo might touch or do would result in a sharp rebuke or constant NO's! That's not really fair to the child, because you decided at this stage of your life tro live "upmarket". Why don't you rent a house instead, where the child may have a little more freedom, and buy a throw cover for the sofa.

It sounds as if you're still trying to decide if you want a family even though you now have a family. My advice get a dog for the child and dive into family life without keeping one eye on an exit stategy.

Edited May 10, 2007 by lannarebirth

[lannarebirth]

PS: Did your mom have a nice holiday here?

[bina]

i cant see that strict upbringingin the end has any better results

my (thai)husband goes crazy cause my kids (from former husband) leave laundry around the house, dont wash up after cooking, dont cook at all, etc.(he always says 'in thailand the kids do this that and the other for their parents how come your kids dont do x, y, and z?)) but on the other hand, they are polite to their elders, they are willing to help when needed, arent selfish, and they will soon be learning that life is not a bowl of cherries, and they could end up dead (active army service), so i think, why not spoil them now. that is how most kids are raised here. also, extended families here are close by, unlike in the states, so grandparents doting uncles the whole bit. why not?

for the most part, spoiling is a subjective verb describing what a particular culture deems important. maybe sofas arent as important so dont buy expensive stuff until the kid is grown.

[Valjean]

I'm imagining that a condo with an 80,000 baht sofa is probably furnished throughout in such a way that anything a 2 yo might touch or do would result in a sharp rebuke or constant NO's! That's not really fair to the child, because you decided at this stage of your life tro live "upmarket". Why don't you rent a house instead, where the child may have a little more freedom, and buy a throw cover for the sofa.

It sounds as if you're still trying to decide if you want a family even though you now have a family. My advice get a dog for the child and dive into family life without keeping one eye on an exit stategy.

We have a nice big house with a small yard. It's great for a kid and it's not lavishly furnished. This sofa just happened to fit great in the TV room and the GF loved it. It doesn't bother me a bit when the room is full of kids, eating, sleeping and having a good time climbing all over the sofa. That what the ###### thing is for. (my gf jokes that if her family and friends knew what it cost no one would sit on it ) It wasn't that him doing this put me ballistic - it's just all adding up.

We have 3 dogs now - and birds, fish and assorted other living things that come and go. We have this one little puppy, a miniature something. This pup is tiny. It is hard with the toddler and him at times – he’s really used to having dogs here and at his home upcountry, but a little rough I worry is going to kill the pup.

Yes there is an element of the exit strategy. All things being equal I’d rather have kids around than not. But good advice on that.

My mom had a wonderful holiday - and she enjoyed my crazy house full of kids as well. But as any wonderful visit from mom is it sure is nice when she gets on that flight home!

I tried to teach the GFs 5yr old son some table manners the other day. Got a bit angry. Result?

A hysterical tirade lasting about 50minutes and much waving by herself, of a rather sharp knife in my direction!

Frankly, I am sick of other Mens progeny. They pay not a single Bht towards their childrens upbringing. So why the F should we?.

In this case the dad, a farang, has despite an unplanned event for both of them been pretty consistent and generous in his continuing support. We've traded email and talked on the phone. He's out of the country now and out of the picture as a dad but does take some long term responsibility for things.

My gf has never once gotten angry at me for any discipline. I think the issue is frankly more that I've got to step up as dad and in that process get the two of us in sync.

Thanks all for good advice and encouragement!!!!

[maprao]

The problem here is the cultural difference between the way we in the West raise kids and the way they do it in Thailand. Chastising or even saying no to toddler in my experience never happens. Also you have a situation where the mother (Thai) never says no. You try and educate and teach the baby. The baby the becomes very confused.

I have also found that discussing this brings lots of tears from the mother for no reason. I get very frustrated. Like most things because of my background I end to giving in more than I should. It has even been “suggested” that when we go and see the in-laws I will have to stop saying no to the baby!!! Easily fixed as we live away from Thailand. Less visits to the in-laws!!!!

Thai farang relationships that last are few and far between. Even long lasting relationships in the west that last are few and far between. When you add the complication of our very polarized (different) way of bringing up children. The complications increase 10 fold!! I have gone from a situation of never arguing for about 6 years to having arguments on a daily basis with reference to bringing up our baby.

My short term solution is to put everything I do not want broken (like computers, Laptops, Video cameras etc) in the study. Removing anything that I do not want damaged or cannot replace to an adult only room. The house looks ok. The rest is fair game and treat it with “som nam na” when it gets broken. Even if you convince the mother to adopt western discipline method and attitudes, she will never do it when you are at work!!!!

My biggest fear is that our son will turn out like all the other children I see when I visit her family. Totally undisciplined! I will persevere with the same feeling you have of maybe “I am too old” but not giving up. Unfortunately your situation is further complicated by the fact the child is not your natural child. They could then throw this back at you saying that you are behaving the way you are because of this fact.

Good luck and I will also report back on this old leapord changing his spots with any success stories

Edited May 11, 2007 by maprao

[bina]

all the children are spoiled until they grow up, and i think most grow up really fast unless they are from rich families; dont see any spoiled men working their butts off here (as per thai workers in middle east thread for good examples of non spoiled thai men)...

[kalaminsa]

Who left the marking pen for the child to play with ?

That's the person you should blame , not the child !