My Balloon Got Deflated This Past Trip.

[Taggart]

I never was good at learning languages, and I guess I thought after visiting on vacation with my Thai wife at least ten times over the last twenty years, that at least some of the language would sink in (perhaps through osmosis). I had a rude awakening this past trip. For the first time ever, I didn't have any feeling of culture shock, so I must be getting used to the ways of the country. When it came to language, I may be able to scrape by using my few words with Thai friends or relatives, but when it comes to complete strangers, fogetaboutit.

We had to visit a hospital in Chiang Mai, (nothing major), but I had to ask for the washroom. "Hong nam", I said to the nurse in reception. I got a blank look, so I said in english, "washroom", then repeated in Thai, "hong nam". Still a blank look. She goes rushing off, to get another nurse, who I assume may understand me better. I got the same quizzacle look from the next nurse, until it finally registered. Ohhhh, and led me to the washroom.

Tried something similar on my last day in Thailand at the airport. Went to a fast food joint and ordered my first burger the whole trip. Noticed I didn't get a fork for the fries. Asked for a fork. Didn't register with the clerk. She rattled off a whole list of condiments, salt, vinegar, chili sauce, you name it. Tried an attempt at sign language, by pretending to scoop up food off a plate with a fork. No go. By that time I would have been happy if she handed me a spoon or knife. Still no go. Went to my wife sitting in the distance, and asked her for the Thai word for fork. Went back to the clerk at Burger King. "Som", I said. Still didn't register. Finally a Thai couple standing beside me, and obviously feeling sorry for the dumb farang, said "som" numerous times to the clerk, until it finally registered in her mind. I got my fork.

I'm not blaming the Thais, but I found it all very discouraging. The idea of retiring to Thailand with my wife within the next three years seems to be moving further and further away in the distance. Nothing's changed, I guess I just have a lazy mind. Sorry for the rant, but one or two others must have the same problem. How do you cope while living in Thailand? I'd hate to rely on my wife as an interpretor for the last years of my life.

[samran]

My experience is, that unlike english where people are mainly used to variants in accents and pronunciation, for a vast majority of Thai's, unless it is spot on, then they don't get it.

This is a bit different though in BKK though.

The other thing that I notice though, is that when a Thai looks at you, as a farang they don't expect Thai to come out of your mouth. If it does, and even if it comes out well, they don't comprehend it, as they aren't expecting it. Happens to me fairly regularly.

Don't worry about getting deflated. It happens to all of us - sometimes after a great 'high'.

I was on a high last week after speaking to my Banks call centre. The girl was checking something regarding banking arrangement, and thought she put me on hold. I then heard her say to her collegue "There is this guy on the phone with a farang name, but he sounds Sooo Thai. At first I though he was the farang's secretary, but it wasn't..it was him". When she got back on the line, she started talking, and I said, "no..I am not the secretary". I was chuffed as my Thai accent is usually has a bit of an Aussie twang to it.

That afternoon, getting into the taxi, the driver didn't have a clue what I was saying, and I was giving him simple directions.

Don't give up and plug away. It ain't always your fault. Communication is a two way street.

[meadish_sweetball]

Good post there by Samran - takes up most aspects. You can learn to get by. When it comes to making yourself understood with English, you may need to learn which English synonym the most Thais will understand.

'Washroom' will go over most people's heads, but if you had said 'toilet' the chances of success would have been a lot greater.

As for the fork, it is often difficult when you just say one single, monosyllabic word. There are a few things there that can go wrong - Thais listen for tone (is it high, falling, low, mid or low?), vowel length (short or long?), the sound of the consonants, and the quality of the vowel.

As a beginner, the tone often goes out the door? Why? Because most of us will not understand how important it is - we are wired to apply intonation to the word, as we do in our native languages. In our languages, the tone tells the other person if we are asking a question, making a neutral statement, barking out an order, etc. You cannot do this in Thai - it changes the meaning of the word to something else!

The other thing is that some sounds in Thai don't exist in our languages. So we try to substitute for the closest sound we have in our language. Sometimes this is not good enough, because the closest sound we can produce, is another sound in Thai - so again the meaning of the word changes.

So if you make just one of these mistakes on a single word, there is not enough information there for the listener. Then they have to guess from your body language etc. and this does not always work either.

Also, as Samran says, more frustratingly - EVEN when you say the correct word without making any of the above mistakes, the Thai person may still not understand you, because she/he thinks you are speaking English - they are listening on another channel, simply. And since the sound data does not fit that channel, the result is 'Err-rerr' (error) as signified by the famous 'deer in headlights' stare.

When you start to learn complete expressions instead of single words, you will notice you are more successful - because there is more information for the listener to make sense of, and because you are saying something that fits something they have heard before. So if your entire sentence is the same type of sentece as a Thai would use in that situation, but one or two tones wrong and a vowel length - it may still be understood. This is true for basic things like ordering food and asking for items in shops etc. Observe the Thais and mimic them, memorize the exact sentences they use.

Etc.

[kriswillems]

My wife is Thai. Wifes and husbands are usually very bad teachers. Some partners are not critical enough and others over-critice. Even listening to your family for 20 years will not help much if there's nobody that really can or wants to teach you (especially if you're not good in languages, like me).

It's very hard to study the tones with a native Thai speaker that is not used to teach foreigners. Thai people don't study the tones rules with the table we all know. They just remember for every consonant - tones mark - live/dead syllable - long/short syllable combination how it should be pronounced. This is easier for them than remembering the table. They spent hours in the classroom ranting all consonants combined with all tones. Only when they move to a higher grade they get the tone rules explained the same way we do.

Without a correct pronounciation of the tones and with a strong English accent Thai people will not even understand half of what you're saying. I always notice that many native English speakers have a very bad pronounciation. I think this related to the fact that many native English speakers never studied any other language (and pronounciation) because English is a language that can be used almost anywhere.

My advice is to go to study with a teacher that is critical and corrects all your pronounciation mistakes. Learn to remember for each word with tone is has (or learn to write, which automatically enables you to remember the tones).

Edited May 10, 2007 by kriswillems

[iamguava]

The other thing that I notice though, is that when a Thai looks at you, as a farang they don't expect Thai to come out of your mouth. If it does, and even if it comes out well, they don't comprehend it, as they aren't expecting it. Happens to me fairly regularly.

Also, as Samran says, more frustratingly - EVEN when you say the correct word without making any of the above mistakes, the Thai person may still not understand you, because she/he thinks you are speaking English - they are listening on another channel, simply. And since the sound data does not fit that channel, the result is 'Err-rerr' (error) as signified by the famous 'deer in headlights' stare.

Agree 100% with these observations, especially if you try to get by using just one word like "fork" rather than complete sentences such as "I would like a fork please" but even then by the time the listener has registered that you are speaking in Thai rather than English they have missed what you said. Result usually "Arai na ka?"

[mr_hippo]

I stopped saying 'The Mall, Bang Kapi' to taxi drivers years ago, used different tones, emphasis and speed and all I got was blank stares. I now just say 'Happy land' anf their faces light up.

[mangkorn]

The other thing that I notice though, is that when a Thai looks at you, as a farang they don't expect Thai to come out of your mouth. If it does, and even if it comes out well, they don't comprehend it, as they aren't expecting it. Happens to me fairly regularly.

Also, as Samran says, more frustratingly - EVEN when you say the correct word without making any of the above mistakes, the Thai person may still not understand you, because she/he thinks you are speaking English - they are listening on another channel, simply. And since the sound data does not fit that channel, the result is 'Err-rerr' (error) as signified by the famous 'deer in headlights' stare.

Agree 100% with these observations, especially if you try to get by using just one word like "fork" rather than complete sentences such as "I would like a fork please" but even then by the time the listener has registered that you are speaking in Thai rather than English they have missed what you said. Result usually "Arai na ka?"

Absolutely agree. Sometimes, people have it set in their minds that you can't speak Thai, and some of those people will simply not "hear" your Thai. That same thing happens in Latin America, whence I hail. Some "gringos" who can speak beautiful Spanish are at times not "heard" by natives who have already convinced themselves that the white guy is not going to speak Spanish. It is weird, but it happens, and I have had surely it happen to me with some Thais as well. Frustrating.

But saying a single word will just not do, even if you say it correctly. You need some context to it, and some rythym. (Even is you say "fork" correctly, it is a homonym for "to repair.") My guess is that, as someone alluded to, Taggart probably inflected the word, as he would naturally indicate a question, which then changed it to something that made no sense to the clerk.

When speaking Thai, it helps to get some proper rythym going, at the very least by saying some pleasantry first, and using particles, to let people know straightaway that you can speak it (even if not at an advanced level). One pronunciation hint that could be useful, is to smile when speaking - not for polite reasons, but to help shape one's mouth to get around the sounds which are not in your native tongue. That is a good tip for English-speakers trying to learn Spanish, because many North Americans and Englishmen speak in a low tone, rather close-mouthed and with a lazy tongue, as it were. Some other languages, like Spanish, and Thai, seem to require more rapid changes in the position of the tongue to make the proper sounds, especially since the melodic quality is important. Sorry if this sounds a bit strange, but it really does help.

And there are some key sounds in Thai that can only be pronounced correctly with a bit of a smile (no matter how forced).

So keep smiling. Life could be much worse...

[Taggart]

Thanks for all the great answers. Makes me think there may be a slight glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel after all.

Another question, is it possible that some foreigners with the same aptitude for learning the Thai language, would have an easier time of it than others, based on there country of origin? I was born and brought up in Canada, but my parents were Scottish immigrants from Glasgow. The Glaswegian accent is almost like sing song to me, where the tones go up and down when you're speaking a sentence. I can mimic this Glasgow accent to a certain extent, so the few times I used it in the distant past to speak a Thai word, I seemed to get a better response from the listener, than the times I used a straight Canadian accent. Or perhaps, maybe I just lucked out.

[kriswillems]

Thanks for all the great answers. Makes me think there may be a slight glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel after all.

Another question, is it possible that some foreigners with the same aptitude for learning the Thai language, would have an easier time of it than others, based on there country of origin? I was born and brought up in Canada, but my parents were Scottish immigrants from Glasgow. The Glaswegian accent is almost like sing song to me, where the tones go up and down when you're speaking a sentence. I can mimic this Glasgow accent to a certain extent, so the few times I used it in the distant past to speak a Thai word, I seemed to get a better response from the listener, than the times I used a straight Canadian accent. Or perhaps, maybe I just lucked out.

I think it's easier for people to study Thai if:

- they have already studied one or more other languages (compared to someone that only knows his native language)

- they speak a language with a big consonant and vowel set (English doesn't have that much vowels compared to many other languages).

- they can speak a another tonal language

- they can speak a language that is purely phonetic (English is not phonetic at all, so transliteration to English are bad).

- have a feeling for languages

Besides this, I think motivation and guidance are by far the most important factors when learning a new language. So, never give up. Everyone can learn to speak basic Thai.

In the beginning it's useful to speak slowly and really exagerate your tones (which might make you sound like you're singing as people in Glasgow). Of course you really need to know the correct tone. People will look a bit strange, but at least they understand you.

Edited May 10, 2007 by kriswillems

[mangkorn]

Thanks for all the great answers. Makes me think there may be a slight glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel after all.

Another question, is it possible that some foreigners with the same aptitude for learning the Thai language, would have an easier time of it than others, based on there country of origin? I was born and brought up in Canada, but my parents were Scottish immigrants from Glasgow. The Glaswegian accent is almost like sing song to me, where the tones go up and down when you're speaking a sentence. I can mimic this Glasgow accent to a certain extent, so the few times I used it in the distant past to speak a Thai word, I seemed to get a better response from the listener, than the times I used a straight Canadian accent. Or perhaps, maybe I just lucked out.

I think it's easier for people to study Thai if:

- they have already studied one or more other languages (compared to someone that only knows his native language)

- they speak a language with a big consonant and vowel set (English doesn't have that much vowels compared to many other languages).

- they can speak a another tonal language

- they can speak a language that is purely phonetic (English is not phonetic at all, so transliteration to English are bad).

- have a feeling for languages

Besides this, I think motivation and guidance are by far the most important factors when learning a new language. So, never give up. Everyone can learn to speak basic Thai.

In the beginning it's useful to speak slowly and really exagerate your tones (which might make you sound like you're singing as people in Glasgow). Of course you really need to know the correct tone. People will look a bit strange, but at least they understand you.

Motivation is the most important of all. If you are not seriously dedicated to it, you won't get very far. One good indication that you are, is when you begin to dream in the language. That demonstrates that you spend a lot of your waking hours thinking about it.

[withnail]

I think it's important to learn to walk before you start trying to run. I was very lazy initially in learning Thai and very shy in speaking when I finally did start studying. I think however this has worked in my favour as whenI did finally turn to the books I had already had plenty of listening practice and I made sure that I learned to speak slowly but correctly.

I'm certainly not gifted with languages, I have particular trouble retaining new vocabulary. When I see new guys picking up words really quickly and trying to speak Thai part of me thinks that they will probably find it easier than I have. 9 times out of 10 though I find myself cringing at their 'accents'.

Don't try to take any shortcuts, forget about vocab for a while and start back at the beginning. Get a Thai person (not your partner) to listen to you practising pronouncing all the Thai sounds and vowel combinations and tell you what they hear.

สู้ๆ

sôo sôo

Edited May 10, 2007 by withnail

[Taggart]

Motivation is the most important of all. If you are not seriously dedicated to it, you won't get very far.

More good answers, but I think Mangkorn hit the nail on the head, and therein lies my problem. Where to start? How to get motivated to continue? In all these twenty plus years I don't think I got beyond chapter 1 in any of my numerous tries.

Being in Canada now, a Thai person is a non-starter. I may try and use my wife as a sounding board, if I can ever get past the initial learning stages. She's a great wife, and educated, but she doesn't have the patience to repeat the same words over and over again, and then I forget them the next day.

I've got three learning sources for the Thai language. Two are in my bookcase.

1. Robertson's Practical English-Thai Dictionary

2. "Reading and Writing Thai", by Marie-Helene Brown

3. The free learning Thai internet sites.

[jing jing]

I'm by no means an expert in Thai but have managed to pick up a fair amount in a relatively short period of time, and can make myself understood in most situations that don't require sophisticated expressions or specialized vocabulary. What I've realized is that in order to effectively communicate in Thai there are 3 critical aspects of the language in which you need to attain a certain level of proficiency before things will start coming together for you:

1. Vowel sounds - there are a number of vowels in Thai which are rather subtle and have no English equivalent, and as Meadish so eloquently explained, using a slightly wrong vowel sound completely changes the meaning of the word.

2. Vowel length - even if you get the sound just right, using a long vowel instead of a short one or vice versa will also change the meaning of the word.

3. The five tones - again, even if you get the vowel sound and length right, using the wrong tone will change the meaning of the word into something that makes no sense to a Thai person.

If you ever get serious about learning the language to any significant degree of proficiency, in my opinion there is no substitute for attending a proper Thai language class where you will be forced to converse in Thai for several hours a day over a period of at least a few weeks. Thai spouses' occasional help with a word or two here and there will not produce the desired result.

Incidentally, as others have indicated, simply using one word will rarely be effective in getting your meaning across in Thai, or most other languages for that matter. Asking where the bathroom is - hawng naam yuu tii nai krap? - or I would like a fork - kaw sawm nawy krap (please forgive the unorthodox transliteration ) are much more easily understood when couched in the phrases commonly used for such requests.

Edited May 10, 2007 by jing jing

[mangkorn]

I'm by no means an expert in Thai but have managed to pick up a fair amount in a relatively short period of time, and can make myself understood in most situations that don't require sophisticated expressions or specialized vocabulary. What I've realized is that in order to effectively communicate in Thai there are 3 critical aspects of the language in which you need to attain a certain level of proficiency before things will start coming together for you:

1. Vowel sounds - there are a number of vowels in Thai which are rather subtle and have no English equivalent, and as Meadish so eloquently explained, using a slightly wrong vowel sound completely changes the meaning of the word.

2. Vowel length - even if you get the sound just right, using a long vowel instead of a short one or vice versa will also change the meaning of the word.

3. The five tones - again, even if you get the vowel sound and length right, using the wrong tone will change the meaning of the word into something that makes no sense to a Thai person.

If you ever get serious about learning the language to any significant degree of proficiency, in my opinion there is no substitute for attending a proper Thai language class where you will be forced to converse in Thai for several hours a day over a period of at least a few weeks. Thai spouses' occasional help with a word or two here and there will not produce the desired result.

Incidentally, as others have indicated, simply using one word will rarely be effective in getting your meaning across in Thai, or most other languages for that matter. Asking where the bathroom is - hawng naam yuu tii nai krap? - or I would like a fork - kaw sawm nawy krap (please forgive the unorthodox transliteration ) are much more easily understood when couched in the phrases commonly used for such requests.

Good one, jing jing (si): vowel length is extremely important. It is every bit as important as the tones.

And yeah, asking one's spouse for help (I'm guessing here, I don't have a spouse) could be good for a word or a phrase, but that's no way to learn what you need to learn. For confirmation and/or correction, yes. But your spouse probably does not want to be your teacher. What you need to do is to sit down face-to-face with a teacher, and force yourself to work out your own ideas in the new language, for a couple hours a day. There is simply no substitute for it. You also need to do a lot (!) of independent study, and then to practice with everyone you can. Granted, that must be a limited possibility in Canada, but if one really wants to learn, one can.

[endure]

The other thing is that some sounds in Thai don't exist in our languages. So we try to substitute for the closest sound we have in our language. Sometimes this is not good enough, because the closest sound we can produce, is another sound in Thai - so again the meaning of the word changes.

Are there any sounds in English that don't exist in Thai?

[mangkorn]

The other thing is that some sounds in Thai don't exist in our languages. So we try to substitute for the closest sound we have in our language. Sometimes this is not good enough, because the closest sound we can produce, is another sound in Thai - so again the meaning of the word changes.

Are there any sounds in English that don't exist in Thai?

Certainly. The soft /sh/ sound for one. And the compound consonant endings such as /ts/ and /st/. For that matter - at the end of a syllable - Thai does not have the corresponding sounds for the English /s/, /r/, /l/, /sh/ or /ch/.

Also, as meadish points out, many Thai consonants are not aspirated, as they often are in English.

Quite different sounds, then. Thai employs a lot of glottal-stops.

[endure]

For the benefit of a linguistic dummy what exactly is a glottal stop?

[mangkorn]

For the benefit of a linguistic dummy what exactly is a glottal stop?

I guess the best way to understand it is the way some Scots say "bottle."

The glottal stop in that case is the double /tt/, which is unaspirated.

In Thai, end consonants are often unaspirated ((beginning ones, too). Thus, a word transliterated as "panich" - in which the ending might be better written as a /t/, but is actually neither - because it is unaspirated. The final sound stops in the throat. (It almost sounds more like a stopped /k/, actually...)

Very difficult to represent that sound in the Roman alphabet.

As they say, you kinda have to be there (to hear it, that is)...

[bkkbound04]

i agree with a lot of the posts in this thread 5555 it can be frustrating

...but it can happen all over the world, we've had it in spain. i remember travelling from valencia to benedorm...ask for benedorm? blank stares...ask again but change accent slightly...same response

...this continues until the spaniard understands and then shouts at u "AHH..BENEDORM!" 555

i remember one of my 1st trips to los, i was sat in a restaurant enjoying a meal when the manager came over and spoke to me...i heard "alright mate?" "yeah i'm fine thanks" 555 that lasted a couple of minutes before i understood she was speaking in thai "aroi mai?" 555 oh well

[grtaylor]

Also, as Samran says, more frustratingly - EVEN when you say the correct word without making any of the above mistakes, the Thai person may still not understand you, because she/he thinks you are speaking English - they are listening on another channel, simply. And since the sound data does not fit that channel, the result is 'Err-rerr' (error) as signified by the famous 'deer in headlights' stare.

Great Post!

"Listening on another channel" - I love that!!!

G

[grtaylor]

I think it's easier for people to study Thai if:

- they have already studied one or more other languages (compared to someone that only knows his native language)

- they speak a language with a big consonant and vowel set (English doesn't have that much vowels compared to many other languages).

- they can speak a another tonal language

- they can speak a language that is purely phonetic (English is not phonetic at all, so transliteration to English are bad).

- have a feeling for languages

Off topic, but:

I'd agree with a lot of these, except about the number of vowels there are in English.

George Bernard Shaw devised an entirely new alphabet for English, the Shavian Alphabet, which actually has 24 different symbols to represent English vowels sounds. The problem is that we write them all using five letters!

G

[Thaddeus]

Also, as Samran says, more frustratingly - EVEN when you say the correct word without making any of the above mistakes, the Thai person may still not understand you, because she/he thinks you are speaking English - they are listening on another channel, simply. And since the sound data does not fit that channel, the result is 'Err-rerr' (error) as signified by the famous 'deer in headlights' stare.

Great Post!

"Listening on another channel" - I love that!!!

G

Very good explanation indeed.

There is another one that I have experienced, this has never happened in the rural areas but it has in Bangkok. Quite a good hotel, snooty receptionist (big hair ) she flatly refused to even respond to me if I spoke Thai, I formed the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, that she didn't want me even attempting to speak 'her' language.

[Tywais]

The other thing is that some sounds in Thai don't exist in our languages. So we try to substitute for the closest sound we have in our language. Sometimes this is not good enough, because the closest sound we can produce, is another sound in Thai - so again the meaning of the word changes.

Are there any sounds in English that don't exist in Thai?

Any word with v or z in it. Ask a Thai to say 'valve'.

[Richard W]

Are there any sounds in English that don't exist in Thai?

Also 'Sh' as in 'show', 'si' as in 'vision', 'g' as in 'go', 'g' as in 'German' (i.e. 'j' as in 'Joe'), 'th' as in 'think', 'th' as in 'father', 'wh' as in 'when' (that's also missing from much English). Of course, 'r' is missing from quite a few Thais' speech, even though some form is required for correct Thai. Several diphthongs and triphthongs are only approximated. The vowel of 'ir' in 'bird' is missing strictly speaking, but Thai /oe/ seems serviceable enough for it.

[grtaylor]

Are there any sounds in English that don't exist in Thai?

The vowel of 'ir' in 'bird' is missing strictly speaking, but Thai /oe/ seems serviceable enough for it.

Which would depend on whether you speak with American or British English, i/e/ whether the "r" is rhotic or not. Isn't /oe/ in fact very close to 'ir' in bird pronounced with a British accent?

G

[mangkorn]

Are there any sounds in English that don't exist in Thai?

Any word with v or z in it. Ask a Thai to say 'valve'.

Too right. My neighbourhood is filled with shophouses dealing in industrial supplies, auto parts, plumbing supplies, etc. I've seen "valve" written in Thai about a half-dozen different ways, and it has taken me a very long time to decipher each one...