Thai Funeral

[Savage]

Somebody I know was very unfortunately killed in a motorcycle accident last week. Last night was the funeral and having been told "don't under any circumstances wear red" I went along to pay my respects.

The first thing I found to be a bit strange was when her work colleague approached me with a smile and said "have you seen the picture yet, she lost half her head". Excuse me??? Oh yes, there was a copy of the newspaper with a picture of her corpse at the scene of the accident being passed around in case anyone wanted to see it. I took my seat and was promptly handed a cornetto. To the side, In fact, not 5 metres from the coffin was a chap selling ice creams. Anyway, I took a couple of token nibbles before placing it in the bin so I could pay my respects.

The chanting began, the mobile phone's rang, the sms's arrived. Did anyone think to put their phone's on discrete? Did they ######! I want to add that this was the educated, well off Thai's. The gossip continued, many of the audience were far too engrossed in their conversations to stop their talking (throughout the ceremony). And then the temple helper guy wearing shorts and a red bull t-shirt complete with massive round belly, starts prancing up and down rubbing his nether regions. He then starts rubbing his arse up and down against the side of the room (but still in front of everyone). Later in the ceremony he smokes a cigarette and puts it out in a monks alms bowl. Ladies and gentleman, Varanasi had nothing on this. This was far and away the weirdest shit i'd seen in my life. Was it a joke?

To round it off nicely, the lady who's daughter was being taught by the victim came up to me within a couple of metres of the coffin and said. "Now that ..... doesn't have a teacher she wants you to take over her lessons...."

Could this not wait a couple of days?

Anyway, I love Thailand and I love its people. My wife and daughter are Thai <deleted>. Today, however, I witnessed a whole heap of stuff that just completely perplexed me. Left me completely at a loss.

[sbk]

I've been to more funerals than I can possibly count and talking during the chanting is common. As is small children running around playing. Think of it as more like a wake than a funeral and you may be able to understand it better. Thai people have a far different perception of death than we do, something to remember next time.

As for the temple helper, well, it is common for temples to have mentally ill or mentally handicapped people helping out. It gives them a place and something to do and is considered an act of compassion. Most likely the people there knew who he was and were used to his behavior.

As for the photos, well, I must say I haven't seen that but then the newspapers don't make it out to where I live so it is just that is has never occurred, not that it is impossible.

[Austhaied]

I took this photo at a recent funeral in Bangkok. It pretty well sums up the way Buddhists look as death. Naturally.. Every Thai funeral i have been to has been the same as the OP describes, i think it's a lot healthier than wailing and carrying on. They accept it and move on. I don't think the deceased would want anyone suffering at the funeral either. As for the grizzly photos, in most vippassana meditation classes they ask you to look at these type of photos and reflect.. We all must die, get on with life while we still have whats left of it..

And remember the Thais would probably be just as shocked as you were if they were at a western type funeral..

[qualtrough]

At my wife's grandma's funeral there was a huge rush to get a gander when they removed the coffin prior to cremation. Everyone wanted to see a woman who had been dead for 5 days. There is also some kind of dispensation at some temples whereby gambling is allowed, so while the funeral was going on there were groups of men completely unrelated to the goings-on gambling. I have a feeling that Thai funerals, like much of Buddhism here, would leave the original Buddha somewhat less than pleased. Jesus wouldn't be much happier with Christianity as it is practiced either for that matter.

[cdnvic]

Buddhists tend to take death in stride, which explains the lack of outward grief (which isn't shown much in public anyway). Aside from the chanting, there's really not a lot of ceremony involved in the funeral. It's mostly a face thing, how many people show up at your funeral than how they act when there. That's probably why you see people not putting a lot of effort into doing more than just showing up.

[Johpa]

I have found that there is little difference in the rural areas between a funeral and a marriage ceremony. Both are the only ritualized social gatherings that take place at the extended neighborhood level, often at the tambon level. I have seen plenty of tears at funerals amongst the immediate family, usually early in the morning when the monks arrive and begin the formal ceremonies, but always more raucous behavior amongst the guests as the day progresses and food and drink are served. For the more affluent deceased, the "celebration" will go on for several days. A funeral is also a traditional event for young single people to meet and flirt, not to mention the adulterous affairs initiated at such gatherings. There really are no other social events that allow such socialization as the people are too poor to hold a party just for the fun if it ike a western birthday party.

Edited May 13, 2007 by Johpa

[kopite]

I have found that there is little difference in the rural areas between a funeral and a marriage ceremony. Both are the only ritualized social gatherings that take place at the extended neighborhood level, often at the tambon level. I have seen plenty of tears at funerals amongst the immediate family, usually early in the morning when the monks arrive and begin the formal ceremonies, but always more raucous behavior amongst the guests as the day progresses and food and drink are served. For the more affluent deceased, the "celebration" will go on for several days. A funeral is also a traditional event for young single people to meet and flirt, not to mention the adulterous affairs initiated at such gatherings. There really are no other social events that allow such socialization as the people are too poor to hold a party just for the fun if it ike a western birthday party.

so its just like an irish wake then?

[solent01]

Have to agree, they are great times to remember the one that has passed, but always with sanook, don't worry about it, Thais have a much better look upon it than most of us Farang.

[jaiyenyen]

I've only been to one Thai funeral, and that was in my wifes village. One of the monks had died. The whole village was there.

They erected a huge outdoor movie screen, and had a movie camera on the back of a lorry.

Half way through the film, while the roll of film was being changed, they set light to the funeral pyre.

As the old chap burned, the monks threw coins for the children, then it was time for the second half of the film.

I found the whole thing very strange, but everyone seemed to have a lot of fun.

I'm now rethinking my own funeral arrangements (not happening too soon i hope)

Regards

Jaiyenyen

[lazeeboy]

I've only been to one Thai funeral, and that was in my wifes village. One of the monks had died. The whole village was there.

They erected a huge outdoor movie screen, and had a movie camera on the back of a lorry.

Half way through the film, while the roll of film was being changed, they set light to the funeral pyre.

As the old chap burned, the monks threw coins for the children, then it was time for the second half of the film.

I found the whole thing very strange, but everyone seemed to have a lot of fun.

I'm now rethinking my own funeral arrangements (not happening too soon i hope)

Regards

Jaiyenyen

with the thais they feel that a death is the begining of a new life ,so they celebrate it ,when asking a thai that was very young to die,they reply that that person was very good in this life so can progress to the next.they celebrate death with a party apmosphere because they have been brought up that way ,as in the western world when we pay are respects we are more reserved .i think the rest of the world could learn some thing from the way thais celebrate death and drink and remember the person with talk of fond memories .......

[Oleg_Rus]

with the thais they feel that a death is the begining of a new life ,so they celebrate it ,when asking a thai that was very young to die,they reply that that person was very good in this life so can progress to the next.they celebrate death with a party apmosphere because they have been brought up that way ,as in the western world when we pay are respects we are more reserved .i think the rest of the world could learn some thing from the way thais celebrate death and drink and remember the person with talk of fond memories .......

No, dear, they don't feel a banana.

Savage, my respect to your topic - reminds me what friend of mine told about manners in LoS. But being banned for 4 months, I'd rather withold my opinion.

Just a glimpse to compare.

Few years ago western journalist had joined Indonesean rebels at their supper, and took photos and published them. Nothing unussual - supper as a supper, with a twist - they ate their enemy BBQ'ed

Bloody gore pictures of ppl passing human leg around, will make any person sick, but there're another breed of ***, that will actually enjoy the quality of contrast-lights-shadows on photos, drops of blood, and so...

Now, funeral is not a place to discuss how much of head is left, talking over the phone and so.

It has nothing to do with relegion - it's just another breed of ****.

[kmart]

I've been to more funerals than I can possibly count and talking during the chanting is common. As is small children running around playing. Think of it as more like a wake than a funeral and you may be able to understand it better. Thai people have a far different perception of death than we do, something to remember next time.

As for the temple helper, well, it is common for temples to have mentally ill or mentally handicapped people helping out. It gives them a place and something to do and is considered an act of compassion. Most likely the people there knew who he was and were used to his behavior.

As for the photos, well, I must say I haven't seen that but then the newspapers don't make it out to where I live so it is just that is has never occurred, not that it is impossible.

Ditto. Been to quite a few funerals here, and all this sounds familiar. Our local temple also has a couple of slightly "off-centre" lads helping out. The worst thing is the pre-cremation ceremony "Water Pouring" procedure, when the open-casketed deceased's arms are cracked out of rigor mortis and put to one side to receive the water poured on the hands by the mourners. Horrible.

Last time I went to a funeral at a funeral, I was threatened in the grounds by a naked drunken derelict guy waving a sword around. It was nice to take in a bit of true Thai Culture.

[h90]

Somebody I know was very unfortunately killed in a motorcycle accident last week. Last night was the funeral and having been told "don't under any circumstances wear red" I went along to pay my respects.

The first thing I found to be a bit strange was when her work colleague approached me with a smile and said "have you seen the picture yet, she lost half her head". Excuse me??? Oh yes, there was a copy of the newspaper with a picture of her corpse at the scene of the accident being passed around in case anyone wanted to see it. I took my seat and was promptly handed a cornetto. To the side, In fact, not 5 metres from the coffin was a chap selling ice creams. Anyway, I took a couple of token nibbles before placing it in the bin so I could pay my respects.

The chanting began, the mobile phone's rang, the sms's arrived. Did anyone think to put their phone's on discrete? Did they ######! I want to add that this was the educated, well off Thai's. The gossip continued, many of the audience were far too engrossed in their conversations to stop their talking (throughout the ceremony). And then the temple helper guy wearing shorts and a red bull t-shirt complete with massive round belly, starts prancing up and down rubbing his nether regions. He then starts rubbing his arse up and down against the side of the room (but still in front of everyone). Later in the ceremony he smokes a cigarette and puts it out in a monks alms bowl. Ladies and gentleman, Varanasi had nothing on this. This was far and away the weirdest shit i'd seen in my life. Was it a joke?

To round it off nicely, the lady who's daughter was being taught by the victim came up to me within a couple of metres of the coffin and said. "Now that ..... doesn't have a teacher she wants you to take over her lessons...."

Could this not wait a couple of days?

Anyway, I love Thailand and I love its people. My wife and daughter are Thai <deleted>. Today, however, I witnessed a whole heap of stuff that just completely perplexed me. Left me completely at a loss.

Strange, there are also a lot Thais who don't know how to do on a funeral. Beside that if my relatives and in Europe I would be furious if you put a new cornetto in the bin. But different countries different ways of funerals.....

[Oleg_Rus]

I was threatened in the grounds by a naked drunken derelict guy waving a sword around. It was nice to take in a bit of true Thai Culture.

Love it ! May I have copyright for it to use as my signature ? No, I'm not sarcastic - You just issued an long waited essence of LoS in only one phrase.

[kmart]

I was threatened in the grounds by a naked drunken derelict guy waving a sword around. It was nice to take in a bit of true Thai Culture.

Love it ! May I have copyright for it to use as my signature ? No, I'm not sarcastic - You just issued an long waited essence of LoS in only one phrase.

Be my guest.... I wish I was joking, but that anecdote is unfortunately true. Wonder if the TAT or Ministry Of Culture could also use it, to push for more "quality tourists" to visit local temples and stuff. "Have your photograph taken with the naked alcoholic psychopath brandishing a home-made sword, anyone?"

[sbk]

I've been to more funerals than I can possibly count and talking during the chanting is common. As is small children running around playing. Think of it as more like a wake than a funeral and you may be able to understand it better. Thai people have a far different perception of death than we do, something to remember next time.

As for the temple helper, well, it is common for temples to have mentally ill or mentally handicapped people helping out. It gives them a place and something to do and is considered an act of compassion. Most likely the people there knew who he was and were used to his behavior.

As for the photos, well, I must say I haven't seen that but then the newspapers don't make it out to where I live so it is just that is has never occurred, not that it is impossible.

Ditto. Been to quite a few funerals here, and all this sounds familiar. Our local temple also has a couple of slightly "off-centre" lads helping out. The worst thing is the pre-cremation ceremony "Water Pouring" procedure, when the open-casketed deceased's arms are cracked out of rigor mortis and put to one side to receive the water poured on the hands by the mourners. Horrible.

Last time I went to a funeral at a funeral, I was threatened in the grounds by a naked drunken derelict guy waving a sword around. It was nice to take in a bit of true Thai Culture.

how long are the funerals then? Where I live a minimum of 3 days. Of course, after 3 days rigor is long past. They must do them pretty quickly there since rigor usually doesn't last longer than a day and a half or so. Also, can't say I have ever seen the water pouring on a corpse here, not when my grandfather-in-law died nor any since. But then, different areas have different customs.

[Oleg_Rus]

Be my guest.... I wish I was joking, but that anecdote is unfortunately true.

Isn't it ironic? some in life turns to be a joke, and some jokes became m/f/ reality ?

It's all an illusion, right ?

[astral]

In my will I request a buddhist funeral when I pop my clogs.

[Jimjim]

To the Original Poster, was the deceased Thai?

[kmart]

I've been to more funerals than I can possibly count and talking during the chanting is common. As is small children running around playing. Think of it as more like a wake than a funeral and you may be able to understand it better. Thai people have a far different perception of death than we do, something to remember next time.

As for the temple helper, well, it is common for temples to have mentally ill or mentally handicapped people helping out. It gives them a place and something to do and is considered an act of compassion. Most likely the people there knew who he was and were used to his behavior.

As for the photos, well, I must say I haven't seen that but then the newspapers don't make it out to where I live so it is just that is has never occurred, not that it is impossible.

Ditto. Been to quite a few funerals here, and all this sounds familiar. Our local temple also has a couple of slightly "off-centre" lads helping out. The worst thing is the pre-cremation ceremony "Water Pouring" procedure, when the open-casketed deceased's arms are cracked out of rigor mortis and put to one side to receive the water poured on the hands by the mourners. Horrible.

Last time I went to a funeral at a funeral, I was threatened in the grounds by a naked drunken derelict guy waving a sword around. It was nice to take in a bit of true Thai Culture.

how long are the funerals then? Where I live a minimum of 3 days. Of course, after 3 days rigor is long past. They must do them pretty quickly there since rigor usually doesn't last longer than a day and a half or so. Also, can't say I have ever seen the water pouring on a corpse here, not when my grandfather-in-law died nor any since. But then, different areas have different customs.

The "water pouring ceremony" is normally just 1-2 days after entering the temple, hence the awful "cracking" sound of my friend's shoulder joints that will haunt me to my own grave... The water is just poured on the hands as some pre-funeral rite. Never been to this ceremony before. And never will again.

Be my guest.... I wish I was joking, but that anecdote is unfortunately true.

Isn't it ironic? some in life turns to be a joke, and some jokes became m/f/ reality ?

It's all an illusion, right ?

Yep. Nice new sig, btw.

[leisurely]

I've been to two funerals. The first was the usual Thai one, with monks looking as bored as it is possible to look chanting, dogs wandering in and out and a simpleton with a saucepan serving up soup.

the second was for a family killed by guns. The family were Thai/chinese and the chanting went on for 5 days. This was fine, we were invitted to the burial near Pattaya where the coffins would be opened and stuff put in.

Unfortuantely our car wouldn't start on the day of the burial......................... Not proud of that, but the idea of seeing a 7 day old cadavar killed violently

[Swelters]

Very much like Irish wakes as I recall them many years ago.

Just went to an upcountry Thai funeral myself, another young motorcyclist killed, was surprised to see the deceased's sister running around taking snapshots. At the moment of cremation when a drunk uncle noisily asked me for beer money and I stiffly refused, my wife became annoyed with me and asked the same sister, who was just then reviving from from a tearfully dramatic faint, if she could change a 1000 baht note. "Oh she have lot of baht'" she explained.

Indulging, as I do from time to time, in an imaginary view of my own funeral, I find it somehow a little comforting to imagine similar scenes.

Swelters

Edited May 14, 2007 by Swelters

[Savage]

To the Original Poster, was the deceased Thai?

The deceased was from UK.

In reply to points elsewhere. How can using mobile phones be filed under Thai culture?

Mobile phone etiquete is new to UK but as people are actually greng jai (for real) there, people are forging it out with time. eg, not in restaurants, discretely etc.

Why give a monkeys about etiquete when it requires actually thinking about others?

These people weren't celebrating anything, it seemed like they simply couldn't care.

Regretably

Sav

[bdenner]

We farewelled a farang friend a few months ago in a traditional Thai ceremony. He laid in the Temples sala (for want of a better description) for 3 days prior to cremation, I believe thermaldahide is used to preserve the body. It was a farely big event with what must have been 100 Thais, 12 or so farang and 20 or so Monks in attendance. Yes there was the chanting, family members taking photos, mobile phones, general chit chat and kids running around. No water but just before the lid was placed and he was pushed into the furnace all in attendance splashed some cocoa nut milk on his face and body. I believe it has something to do with cleansing prior to entering a new life. I'm not too sure what the fireworks was all about as the fire was lit?

An eye opening event and that’s the way I would want to go.

[astral]

The more important you are, the longer the ceremony.

When the Princess Mother died it was several months before she was finally cremated, with great ceremony.

[t.s]

i am sorry thais at a funeral in thailand did not display grief in a manner you consider appropriate. perhaps you should have taken a moment to point out to them where they were going wrong.

Edited May 14, 2007 by t.s

[draggons]

Mother in law lay in the wat for five days before the cremation, much partying and socialising went on during those 5 days.

The day of the cremation was very formal during the ceromony and there must have been a couple of hundred folk there. The wife and her brothers and sisters very much upset when the coffin was opened before it went into the oven but thirty minutes later were having a good time like everyone else? One thing I did find a bit weird was when the missus asked if I was comming to have a look and see how mama was doing

The night before the cremation, when the body was moved from the chilled viewing coffin to the coffin for cremation we had three groups of traditional dancers and on the day of the cremation another three groups.

The fireworks are to send the spirit on its way I think.

Definatly the way I want to be sent off

[chevykanteve]

I've gone to one Thai funeral. That was about 21 years ago, in Nongkhai Province in a village next to Si Chang Mai, the name of which escapes me. Anyhow, the funeral was for a Thai man, aged around 23-24, who died in a motorcycle accident a few days before. It was open coffin, his skin was black, guts were pouring out from his lower belly area and his hands were affixed together into an upward prayer-position via some type of pegs.

I've never, ever attended another funeral since then.

[AJARNJACK]

I saw this topic and decided to add "my two cents". I live in Southern Thailand and went to a funeral a few months back for my wife's cousin who was killed in 'another' motorcycle accident. The true irony was that is was in the early morning hours of his 22nd birthday!

The same day he was killed they had the first of five days of the "ngan sope" (funeral party). I picked up her family and drove to the funeral and expected a sober atmosphere. NOT! It was out of town amongst the rubber plantations complete with lights and sound system. His father greeted us with a smile and asked us to find a table to sit at so they could serve us food and drink. His mother was doing the cooking along with her lady friends. Only the best booze for Thai guys - Regency(Thai Brandy) and soda along with platefulls of homecooked food. All the males were drinking and the women chatting and over in the corner was a casket with monks chanting and old woman kneeling.

I'm not adverse to death, having put in a year of combat in Viet Nam as a rifle squad leader, but I was a bit 'put off' with the limited grief exhibited. The deceased only sister came by our table and greeted us with a smile and some small talk before she broke down and started sobbing. My wife's sister put her arm around her and comforted her while all the others looked away as if someone farted! Soon she composed herself and the party atmosphere continued. I asked my wife about the behavior and she said that "the death party" was for the deceased to feel the the joy of their family and friends and help them make the transition from life easier. Kinda made sense to me, so I accept it.

We were committed to attend more than once since he was close family and each time there was a party atmosphere with nobody showing signs of remorse. The last time we went was the night before the actual cremation and my wife asked me if I didn't notice how sober the deceased's father was then. I accepted the party and hadn't thought about it until I looked at him. He wasn't as cheerfull and she said it was because he realized that the next day they would cremate his only son and it would all be over.

Now I'm more aware of the Thai's attitude towards death and accept it. That's why you see all the grisly death photos in the newspapers. They face death as common as birth, but with a bit more curiosity. Who's to say which culture has right idea about how to handle death.

[Austhaied]

Who's to say which culture has right idea about how to handle death.

Well for one the Buddhists celebrate it (no suffering)

And westerners all cry and wail and bring great suffering on themselves..

I know what my answer would be..