Some Dowry Questions

[teacup]

If you want to save her and her family face, by all means….pay the sinsot. And if she won't come down on the amount that you can truly afford, then she's quite greedy for a person who can't even make it in life on her own and needing you to support her and her kids…..then I think you're setting up yourself as a lifetime milkcow.

Not all thais and also not all farangs had to pay sinsot, despite the girl's status and her education. It's depending on the family you're marrying into.

I'm also a thai woman

So I can tell you that this part of thai culture – "the sinsot" … is not uniformly practiced by all thai families. It varies from family to family with each own values and beliefs. Unless you are willing…then up to you!

[dr_Pat_Pong]

SinSot are typically one shot deals - married/children lucky to get anything. Any rate more for show - dosh should be returned to you if this is done properly.

I agree with Brit. Absolutely.

[Emjay]

It appears you haven't talked about 'money' with your intended.

This needs to be resolved, well before any talk of marriage.

She obviously thinks you can afford many hundreds of thousands of Bahts.

whether you can or cannot, isn't the issue here. It's what you are willing to put

on the table that counts.

Put her straight. Tell her you have very little money, and you'll pay 50k tops.

See her reaction. Then move on.

nope, we have spoken about this, she defininately knows I cannot put that on the table

[Emjay]

If you want to save her and her family face, by all means….pay the sinsot. And if she won't come down on the amount that you can truly afford, then she's quite greedy for a person who can't even make it in life on her own and needing you to support her and her kids…..then I think you're setting up yourself as a lifetime milkcow.

Not all thais and also not all farangs had to pay sinsot, despite the girl's status and her education. It's depending on the family you're marrying into.

So I can tell you that this part of thai culture – "the sinsot" … is not uniformly practiced by all thai families. It varies from family to family with each own values and beliefs. Unless you are willing…then up to you!

thank you teacup, I am willing, but as I said, I cannot afford hundreds of thousands.

[thaihome]

May I suggest you just register the marriage and forego the ceremony (for a while), at which the sinsot is given. That way you avoid the whole issue.

This has worked for my wife and I, at her insistence, for over 6 years now.

TH

[jumnien]

I paid nothing to the family of my first caucasian wife in California and the marriage lasted 5 weeks. I paid 500,000 to the parents of a Hua Hin Siam Commercial Bank teller and the marriage has lasted 4 years and produced a lovely boy and the whole deal is priceless. That's my 2 cents!

[buriramboy]

she has been married before therefore no dowry/sinsot should be paid, end of story.

[Aussietraveller]

Ask how much was paid last time she got married.

Use this as a guide.

If it has been paid once, there should be no need to pay it again.

I think most people would agree.

To insist that it be paid is greed. pure and simple.

At the end of the day, you can only pay what your financial circumstances will allow.

Discuss this with her.

If she cares about you, this will be more important to her.

[rgs2001uk]

the answer from 5 different thais i spoke with today, and i quote.

she doesnt love him ching ching.

she only wants money.

better to get new lady.

no need to pay sinsot, it was paid the first time.

stop seeing this lady, better to hurt a little now, than more in the future.

draw your own conclusions.

how long have you known the girl, how many thai woman have you been involved with before, why is this one different, how many times have you been to thailand, why are you sending her money every month, how much about thai culture do you actually know?

marry in haste, repent at leisure.

my advice is finish with this woman, be told or be sorry.

there are plenty of decent woman out there who would jump at the chance to be with someone like you, all you have to do is find one.

[Heng]

Use instruments such as stock certs, land deeds from your own country, etc... items that will give the family the right impression, but that they can't cash in on. It's more or less just symbolic nowadays, no different from a diamond engagement ring.

[Lucifer]

It appears you haven't talked about 'money' with your intended.

This needs to be resolved, well before any talk of marriage.

She obviously thinks you can afford many hundreds of thousands of Bahts.

whether you can or cannot, isn't the issue here. It's what you are willing to put

on the table that counts.

Put her straight. Tell her you have very little money, and you'll pay 50k tops.

See her reaction. Then move on.

nope, we have spoken about this, she defininately knows I cannot put that on the table

...and she had the nerve to ask for many hundreds of thousands of bahts?....Not wife material mate...move on.

[mbiggs]

I know of an Australian/Thai couple who are in their mid 20s, she is actualy one year older than him. They met at the University of New South Wales studying together. When they where married at the Bhuddist temple in Sydney, the girls family flew over for the wedding and an amount of sin sot was gathered from reletives of the groom and put on display. Then it was handed to the couple.

That is the sin sot in a true sense not to get money out of the farangs. Not to mention if she has a kid or has been married before, then definatly no sin sot should be paid.

[MTW]

I think it is pretty clear that Thai culture only requries sinsot for the first marriage, which this might well, legally be, for your Thai woman, but that a woman who has had children already with some other man, is not due this. Is it possible that a woman who had children outside of marriage is even worth less than a woman who was married and had children?

Maybe the support you have given her towards her children could be/should be considered sinsot enough. Besides the money you have given towards her mother. And what is this sinsot supposed to be for? In case YOU divorce her, don't support her children? Maybe you could suggest some sort of long-term savings account that will be to benefit your wife and baby, once you actually have those things. A college fund, life insurance, etc. And just to be rude, what will be your sinsot if she cheats on you, is a terrible wife, never has a child for you, etc?

In my experience, some Thai people will try to get anything and everything they can get from you because you are farang. They do not respect you more because you pay for something stupid, but respect you less. If this woman has any better options, let her take them. She may well love you to some extent, because you can give her and her children a better life. If you are constantly getting tricked by others and spending too much money, maybe you cannot give her a better life.

Don't fall for it. And maybe you could ask her, where this money will be going? Will they have it in a secured CD account for 5 years, in preperation for the next family member who falls ill? Or will it be gone in 5 minutes, and the family will be asking you to pay for medical bills, funeral bills, school bills, farm debts, and every possible thing under the sun as soon as next week?

If you feel they are really insisting on it, why don't you put it in some kind of account where your wife cannot get it for a number of years, but where it will earn money towards her future, since we all know in this case, sinsot is not required. And if they try to throw "Thai culture" at you, just ask what any Thai man would pay? And then don't believe their answer, which will certainly be a lie. But ask Thai men what they have paid (men who are not friends of her or her family).

I have actually never met a Thai man who has paid sinsot. And I have also not met a Thai man who is supporting any other man's children or where the children even live with him. This doens't mean it doesn't exist, but maybe that it is very rare. And one of the reasons many Thai women tell me that their children are living out in a village with her parents, is because they say they will have no chance to even live as a girlfriend with any Thai man if they have children already.

If you marry this woman you are going to be paying plenty where you might not if she were a western woman with children from a western man, because she would be getting child support. You also would not have half the responsibilites that you will now have re family, if you choose to accept them.

And to the poster who wrote about his first Californian marriage lasting 5 weeks, and his Thai wife where he paid sinsot lasting, so far, 4 years, does anyone here really believe that sinsot made the difference? Any marriage that lasted only 5 weeks had some fundamental things wrong at the start, and a marriage with a child that lasts 4 years, can hardly claim total success. I could state many reasons why I believe this, but anyone who has been married and is over 40 probably understands so I won't waste my time.

Please take good care to understand how what you do now may negatively affect you later in regards to your Thai wife and her family and be strong, set your boundaries now. Otherwise you are setting yourself up to be taken advantage of more and more, and setting those boundaries will be harder later. Tell her/them that you want to be sure you can take care of everyone in the future and that giving away everything now may make that impossible, and since you are a loyal, responsible person, you cannot feel good about that. If you have ever heard the saying, "easy come, easy go" that would be a very good thing to remember about the culture in Thailand. Because the money they get the most easily will surely be the most quick to go.

And also you may be able to bring up where you intend to live as a defence against this ridiculous request. If she is coming to live with you in your country, you will have many expenses to make this a reality as well as for her kids. If you are coming to Thailand, you can talk about what you have given up to come here.

The bottom line is probably they think you are great already, or they think farangs are just stupid. If they think you are stupid, why make this more true? If they think you are great for helping to support her and her kids, than don't let them turn you into someone stupid.

[donx]

I will tell you my story. It's not the same situation as your's but at least you can use it for a comparison.

When I married my wife who was 27 and never married or pregnant before, she asked me to provide a sizable sinsot for her parents. She insisted that the sinsot must be cash. I didn't understand why it had to be cash and when I asked if her parent's would return the money to us, she said that this was not the tradition in her culture.

It took a while to finally get it out of her but she finally confessed that the reason she needed the money was because her parents had borrowed money on their farmland several years ago to build a house for one that was washed away in a flood. If they couldn't give the bank the money two months after our wedding they would end up losing the land. She didn't want to tell me this because she was afraid that I would think that she only wanted to marry me for my money.

Seven and a half years later we are happily married with 3 kids and several rai of farmland in Thailand (even though we don't currently live there).

Find out why your fiancee needs the money. Is it only for show or does her family need the money for something they are embarrassed about?

[momathome]

I don't know your situation and relationship but there are many people out there who are married with or without children trying to make a better living by finding Farang ATM. That is not a crime, I know. But some Farangs lost a lot of things, even life. She might/ might not be one of them but you better slow down. It's a good idea to come to the country and make a surprise visit, you might see how much she loves and cares about you!!

[drbill]

I do not know your exact situation.But, I do know that none of my Thai friends have paid sin sot of the amount you have been asked to pay. Most have might only have paid a token amount,perhaps out of tradition. I am happily married to a Thai and we have now two children. My wife graduated from Chiang Mai University and then earned an MBA degree in the States at the University of Michigan where I met her.She's 19 years younger than I am ,was 26 and single without children when we married. I was never asked to pay to marry her. I have heard though of many other farangs marrying poor farm girls and paying sum's of money like you have been asked to pay.More money than likely the family will earn in their life time.I also know that many Thai men will not marry divorced women.They may not even want a girlfriend if she has children by someone else. I would be very cautious. Reread what many have posted here,especially MTW and momathome. Chok dee

[Travel2003]

Im really confused here.

Having discussed this with my wife, she claims that it does not matter how many time a Thai lady has been married.

Married 10 times? Then the parents can receive sinsod 10 times.

She is from Isaan, and refuses to back down on this issue.

PS. She was married before. She did not want me to spend money on a traditional Thai wedding, as I would have to pay up as well as her (Thai) x-husband did. She wanted to save the money for a house (NOT to be buildt in her town).

Rgds

Sailor

[Emjay]

the answer from 5 different thais i spoke with today, and i quote.

she doesnt love him ching ching.

she only wants money.

better to get new lady.

no need to pay sinsot, it was paid the first time.

stop seeing this lady, better to hurt a little now, than more in the future.

draw your own conclusions.

how long have you known the girl, how many thai woman have you been involved with before, why is this one different, how many times have you been to thailand, why are you sending her money every month, how much about thai culture do you actually know?

marry in haste, repent at leisure.

my advice is finish with this woman, be told or be sorry.

there are plenty of decent woman out there who would jump at the chance to be with someone like you, all you have to do is find one.

We met on internet when I tested a webcam that I got as a present on my b-day,

during her work in feb 2005, spoke everyday since then

Formally met eachother in nov2005, my first time in Thailand, hooked on eachother after a few days,

travelled much together, we always have great fun and laugh very much. We can be quiet, or talk very good about very serious things and feelings.

Never been with a Thai woman before in my life

This september will be the 4th time for me in Thailand

She'll be coming over to my country to meet my friends and family in december, for 3 months

I'm not sending her money every month and she hasn't been asking for it

I sent her some the last two months, as her mother died and she was not able to work full months,

the kids new schoolyear started this month, she had to pay for that, schoolmoney/uniforms and a pair of new glasses for her, as she started getting some problems with her eye/headache when reading/working at the pc

She told me she cannot give me expensive present say, for my b-day, but she knitted scarves and woollen hats and sent them to me and my parents on our b-days. Also some postcards.

Whenever I am in Thailand I'm with Thai people all the time, all kinds of people, different ages,

attended weddings, ceremonies, dinner party's, going out, made hospitalvisits, attended b-days, had meals with her friends and her family,visited tempels.........and read much

We litterally talk and see eachother everyday, since we met,

when this is not possible during say work, we sms, send e-mail, e-cards, we call eachother, sent postcards, letters, everything.

I'll ask again about the money. I thought she said it's for the wedding/small party.

[Emjay]

I do not know your exact situation.But, I do know that none of my Thai friends have paid sin sot of the amount you have been asked to pay. Most have might only have paid a token amount,perhaps out of tradition. I am happily married to a Thai and we have now two children. My wife graduated from Chiang Mai University and then earned an MBA degree in the States at the University of Michigan where I met her.She's 19 years younger than I am ,was 26 and single without children when we married. I was never asked to pay to marry her. I have heard though of many other farangs marrying poor farm girls and paying sum's of money like you have been asked to pay.More money than likely the family will earn in their life time.I also know that many Thai men will not marry divorced women.They may not even want a girlfriend if she has children by someone else. I would be very cautious. Reread what many have posted here,especially MTW and momathome. Chok dee

it's a farm near Bangkok, the land (family, parents) is worth very much, does this mean they are poor?

Why would I have to be cautious, I accept her and her kids, I'm willing to care for them,

just don't see why I would have to pay this amount of dowry, unless it's really for the wedding/small party/clothes, or something that has to do with it.

Edited May 28, 2007 by Emjay

[rgs2001uk]

the answer from 5 different thais i spoke with today, and i quote.

she doesnt love him ching ching.

she only wants money.

better to get new lady.

no need to pay sinsot, it was paid the first time.

stop seeing this lady, better to hurt a little now, than more in the future.

draw your own conclusions.

how long have you known the girl, how many thai woman have you been involved with before, why is this one different, how many times have you been to thailand, why are you sending her money every month, how much about thai culture do you actually know?

marry in haste, repent at leisure.

my advice is finish with this woman, be told or be sorry.

there are plenty of decent woman out there who would jump at the chance to be with someone like you, all you have to do is find one.

We met on internet when I tested a webcam that I got as a present on my b-day,

during her work in feb 2005, spoke everyday since then

Formally met eachother in nov2005, my first time in Thailand, hooked on eachother after a few days,

travelled much together, we always have great fun and laugh very much. We can be quiet, or talk very good about very serious things and feelings.

Never been with a Thai woman before in my life

This september will be the 4th time for me in Thailand

She'll be coming over to my country to meet my friends and family in december, for 3 months

I'm not sending her money every month and she hasn't been asking for it

I sent her some the last two months, as her mother died and she was not able to work full months,

the kids new schoolyear started this month, she had to pay for that, schoolmoney/uniforms and a pair of new glasses for her, as she started getting some problems with her eye/headache when reading/working at the pc

She told me she cannot give me expensive present say, for my b-day, but she knitted scarves and woollen hats and sent them to me and my parents on our b-days. Also some postcards.

Whenever I am in Thailand I'm with Thai people all the time, all kinds of people, different ages,

attended weddings, ceremonies, dinner party's, going out, made hospitalvisits, attended b-days, had meals with her friends and her family,visited tempels.........and read much

We litterally talk and see eachother everyday, since we met,

when this is not possible during say work, we sms, send e-mail, e-cards, we call eachother, sent postcards, letters, everything.

I'll ask again about the money. I thought she said it's for the wedding/small party.

this story has so many alarm bells ringing i almost dont know where to start.

you met on the internet, this woman was fishing and you took the bait.

hooked on each other after a few days, get real, that translates to you were hooked on her, the first thai woman you met on your first trip to thailand.

you have only met her 3 times and already you are racing ahead thinking about getting married and having children, whats the rush?

time is on your side not hers, thats why she is in a rush, to get you married before you wake up.

it's a farm near Bangkok, the land (family, parents) is worth very much, who says its worth very much?, define very much, mind you if you dont even have 200k baht to put down, it probably sounds very much, $100k sounds a lot if you dont have it, but when you see what it will get you in your own country, you soon realize its not really that much.

also if the land is worth as much as you say, whats the problem regards to kids schooling, she can borrow against the land.

Whenever I am in Thailand I'm with Thai people all the time, i am glad you picked the language up so fast, you are only hearing what they want to tell you.

sounds to me as if she loves you for what you can provide, not as a person, i just hope you have the wherewithall to keep to keep providing, because believe me you dont want to see the other side of thai woman.

Why would I have to be cautious, I accept her and her kids, I'm willing to care for them, all i can say is if your mind is made up and your heart is set on it, then press on, good luck.

[Emjay]

the answer from 5 different thais i spoke with today, and i quote.

she doesnt love him ching ching.

she only wants money.

better to get new lady.

no need to pay sinsot, it was paid the first time.

stop seeing this lady, better to hurt a little now, than more in the future.

draw your own conclusions.

how long have you known the girl, how many thai woman have you been involved with before, why is this one different, how many times have you been to thailand, why are you sending her money every month, how much about thai culture do you actually know?

marry in haste, repent at leisure.

my advice is finish with this woman, be told or be sorry.

there are plenty of decent woman out there who would jump at the chance to be with someone like you, all you have to do is find one.

this story has so many alarm bells ringing i almost dont know where to start.

you met on the internet, this woman was fishing and you took the bait.

hooked on each other after a few days, get real, that translates to you were hooked on her, the first thai woman you met on your first trip to thailand.

you have only met her 3 times and already you are racing ahead thinking about getting married and having children, whats the rush?

time is on your side not hers, thats why she is in a rush, to get you married before you wake up.

it's a farm near Bangkok, the land (family, parents) is worth very much, who says its worth very much?, define very much, mind you if you dont even have 200k baht to put down, it probably sounds very much, $100k sounds a lot if you dont have it, but when you see what it will get you in your own country, you soon realize its not really that much.

also if the land is worth as much as you say, whats the problem regards to kids schooling, she can borrow against the land.

Whenever I am in Thailand I'm with Thai people all the time, i am glad you picked the language up so fast, you are only hearing what they want to tell you.

sounds to me as if she loves you for what you can provide, not as a person, i just hope you have the wherewithall to keep to keep providing, because believe me you dont want to see the other side of thai woman.

Why would I have to be cautious, I accept her and her kids, I'm willing to care for them, all i can say is if your mind is made up and your heart is set on it, then press on, good luck.

She actually thought I was just coming to visit Thailand and come and see her at her work, as a friend.

She was hesitant because she thought I was coming for all the ladies.

After a few days she saw this was not the case and we spoke together about our feelings.

Met her 3 times, been talking together and seeing eachother almost everyday for 2,5 years.

She's coming to visit us here, but she told me before she has no wish

to leave Thailand and live anywhere else. She wants to be near her family.

About the rush, marriage, having a baby get's harder at certain ages, this is why.

There are some other people (also Thais) in this topic saying other things about dowry,

guess your 5 different Thais don't know exactly either.

[bendix]

Emjay. I'm in two minds about posting this. Your thread raises a moral dilemma - does one answer honestly and risk shattering your ideas, illusions and perceptions about the situation; or does one say the things you want to hear?

There is absolutely NO WAY you should pay a dowry to a woman who has already been married and has kids. It's not written down, but it's a generally accepted truism of Thai culture. The fact that your intended is asking for several hundreds of thousands should be raising some fundamental questions in your mind. She will know the culture; she is expecting you not to know it. Your posts suggest she is playing a good strategy.

It's hard to say this in a way that will feel good, but you're being played for a sucker.

[rgs2001uk]

emjay

i have neither the time nor the inclanation to carry on with this.

it is clear you are no longer in control, you have been manipulated.

this woman has basically said she doesnt want to live with you in your country, she wants to have her cake and eat it.

basically send me money every month, to take care of me, my kids and my parents.

shows where you are on her list of priorities.

if you are happy enough to think of that as a marriage, best wishes to you.

what is in this for you?

nothing but heartache and misery further down the road, when you will no longer be able to meet her ever increasing demands, car, house etc etc.

i can already summarize from your postings you yourself have doubts, just remember it wont cost you anything do to nothing, you have time on your side.

she is coming to visit you in your country, i take it you will be paying for that, a free holiday for her, if you are happy enought to delude yourself, good luck to you.

you seem like a genuine enough guy, dont sell your self short.

if she wants to stay in thailand, why doesnt she marry a thai, or has she forgotten to tell you a thai man wont want her because of the social conditions that prevail here, or maybe one of your many new thai friends may care to enlighten you.

why are you in such a rush, there are many lovely, genuine woman over here, just waiting to meet someone like you.

[bendix]

yeap . this is a classic case of a guy who is only hearing what he wants to hear, and ignoring the collected wisdom of dozens of well-meaning advisors who have been here much much longer and have much much more experience.

so, go ahead, emjay. Do whatever you want. If you're not prepared to listen to reason and experience, so be it.

Please come and report back in 12 months.

[lost_in_space]

emjay,

take the advice of a psychologist (not me) who said:

if the results of an action are NOT potentially catastrophic; be optimistic

if the results of an action ARE potentially catastrophic....: be pessimistic

if your sin sot is chump change...go for it

if not....walk (no, run) away