Road Repair - Can We Help?

[patsfangr]

I live east of Sukhumvit Road. I think it fair to say that virtually every major road stretching to the east, from the southern to the northern borders of Pattaya, is in deplorable condition. These roads are constantly in disrepair. However, during the rainy season, they become nearly impassable in some areas. Holes appear, and continue to grow, with little or no action taken by the "official" organizations responsible for the roads, whoever they may be. They slow traffic, and constantly threaten damage to vehicles, and accidents that can injure people.

I have only lived here for a little over one year. I am not familiar with the specific processes or administrative organizations that should address such problems. I am certain, however, that whatever those processes and organizations may be, they are woefully inadequate. Whether due to indifference, incompetence, corruption, lack of funds, or a combination of all of these things, this is the situation. I continue to be immeasurably frustrated by the apparent willingness of the Thai people in the area to accept these conditions without raising protests of a magnitude that cannot be ignored. But, again, whatever their reasons, this is the situation. I'd like to set aside angry and vitriolic exploration of the reasons for the situation, and dedicate this thread to identifying constructive actions that we can take.

So now I ask for the help of the members here, nearly all of whom, by their participation in this forum, indicate that they (we) have a higher level of concern for such problems, and a higher level of income, than the vast majority of Thai nationals living in the area. That being the case, can you suggest some means by which we can contribute to significant improvement in road maintenance for the area? Personally, if it required some sort of reasonable monthly contribution to support a road maintenance crew, I'd be happy to do so. If somebody, or some small group, with some experience in such work would be willing to manage such an effort, think about how much it would improve our daily lives here.

I don't have answers. My lack of knowledge of how things are supposed to work limits my ability to make meaningful suggestions for improvements. But I am asking for such suggestions from those of you who know more about these things than I. I am willing to help in any way that I can. How many of you feel the same way? Can't we do something to raise this area above the level of slum?!

Please, post your ideas and constructive suggestions to this thread. Let's see if we can make this a better place to live in for Thai nationals and expats alike. I'm sure we have among us the intelligence and the money, if that is necessary, to make a difference.

Edited May 22, 2007 by Jai Dee
Font size adjusted for better readability.

[Humphrey Bear]

Road design is not a Thai talent. It is only in the last twenty years that it has become a necessity here, as all the cars and heavy trucks pound the infrastructure to dust.

You not only need to rebuild the roads, but also the surface drainage disposal. If the run-off can be removed efficiently it does not penetrate and weaken the sub-layers of macadam and compacted fill. Thus the road maintains it's integrity. Also one must ensure a dense wearing course on top, to prevent water penetration. The more flexible, thicker binder course is usually not impermeable to heavy rain.

On existing roads there is very little that can be done effectively once the structure begins to break down. It really needs to be rebuilt from the bottom up. If only the wearing course is breaking up, then a few litres of cold-cure asphalt may do the trick (for a year or so) but if the damage is any deeper, you're in trouble. Filling in with sand or stones does not help - the damage is done by water penetration - and there's a lot of that about!

[BigSnake]

Well to start with I don't think there is very much anyONE of us can do along(I agree with you) Now, I have a Thai friend who is a Contractor(road) and as he has told me(we all know) the job to repair the road goes to the lowest bidder. What he say is a contractor will give a low bid for the job and then use substandard material/people to the job, results we all can see(ie we get what we pay for) May I suggest the people in charge be more aware of the Contractor track record. However as my Thai friend said there are a lot of kickback, so someway somehow there need to be a watch dog on the Road Contractors. Will it work(??) who know!! Will it help(??) maybe if the watchdog had a little bit.

Your concern is a vaild one, hope our Thai friends will step up and reply.

Edited May 16, 2007 by BigSnake

[CHdiver]

You don't have to look to Eastpattaya to see bad Roads. Have a look at the Road coming from Jomtien to Pattaya. The last 500 meters are just one Pothole next to a bigger one. They "repaired it one week ago, now the holes are back and much bigger and many more. Going furter on 2. Road to Klang the Road starts to breack up too. It is a shame. I am sure many Roads in the Hinterland are much better then in Pattaya.

They wanted to go away from Tourists just looking for holes If they want quality tourists, they have to present quality Infrastructure too.

[Mobi]

Even in the west, these 'minor' roads would suffer from the almost 24/7 pounding they receive from 100's of cement trucks, and earth laden trucks, than inundate the roads of east Pattaya - to say nothing of the effect of recent monsoons.

So how much worse in Pattaya, where the infrastructure is creaky, at best?

I'm not sure, but I do believe that the local Or Bor Tor offices are responsible for 'temporary repairs'; i.e. filling in the pot holes to prevent accidents and keep traffic moving. Maybe someone could advise on this? They probably have some kind of budget. Maybe we could contact them, and ask what - if anything- could be done to repair in a more timely manner - and how much would it cost?

Major road rebuilding would be handled more centrally, and require government funding.

The only light on the horizon is that when all the current round of new highways are completed (there's at least 3 new major highways currently being built in and through Eastern Pattaya), not only will that reduce the number of trucks taking earth and cement to the new road sites, but it should, in theory, reduce the traffic on the other roads. When and if that happens is anyone's guess.

Don't hold your breath.

[chuckd]

The first time I drove up Siam Country Club Road was 1978. It was in the same condition then that it is now.

Mobi has it about right for East Pattaya. The heavy construction trucks keep the roads in a state of disrepair, when you couple it with shoddy work, incompetent officials and the ever present hand under the table.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[patsfangr]

Road design is not a Thai talent. It is only in the last twenty years that it has become a necessity here, as all the cars and heavy trucks pound the infrastructure to dust.

You not only need to rebuild the roads, but also the surface drainage disposal. If the run-off can be removed efficiently it does not penetrate and weaken the sub-layers of macadam and compacted fill. Thus the road maintains it's integrity. Also one must ensure a dense wearing course on top, to prevent water penetration. The more flexible, thicker binder course is usually not impermeable to heavy rain.

On existing roads there is very little that can be done effectively once the structure begins to break down. It really needs to be rebuilt from the bottom up. If only the wearing course is breaking up, then a few litres of cold-cure asphalt may do the trick (for a year or so) but if the damage is any deeper, you're in trouble. Filling in with sand or stones does not help - the damage is done by water penetration - and there's a lot of that about!

Thanks, Humphrey! Sounds like you might be the guy to head up our "Thai Visa Pattaya Road Repair" unit! :-)

Seriously, you clearly have the level of knowledge I was talking about to be of some help in this. I understand, at a non-expert level, what you're saying about the sub-layers. I've known that the quality of the roads is very poor. If it were not, it would certainly stand up to rain better than it does. What I'm suggesting is that there could still be more done to make timely, though very temporary repairs to the most dangerous holes. You mentioned "a few liters of cold-cure asphalt" as possibly lasting for a year or so. Well isn't that a h*ll of a lot better than leaving the holes, as they do now?

That's the kind of thing I'm suggesting we investigate, and, perhaps, help with. Can't we at least get repairs done, at a reasonalble cost, that would last a few months to a year?

[patsfangr]

Well to start with I don't think there is very much anyONE of us can do along(I agree with you) Now, I have a Thai friend who is a Contractor(road) and as he has told me(we all know) the job to repair the road goes to the lowest bidder. What he say is a contractor will give a low bid for the job and then use substandard material/people to the job, results we all can see(ie we get what we pay for) May I suggest the people in charge be more aware of the Contractor track record. However as my Thai friend said there are a lot of kickback, so someway somehow there need to be a watch dog on the Road Contractors. Will it work(??) who know!! Will it help(??) maybe if the watchdog had a little bit.

Your concern is a vaild one, hope our Thai friends will step up and reply.

So, does anybody know how a group of us could either meet with, or present a constructive petition to, the appropriate Thai authorities?

[patsfangr]

The first time I drove up Siam Country Club Road was 1978. It was in the same condition then that it is now.

Mobi has it about right for East Pattaya. The heavy construction trucks keep the roads in a state of disrepair, when you couple it with shoddy work, incompetent officials and the ever present hand under the table.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Funny you should mention Siam CC Rd. That's the one I travel most often to get into Pattaya; and was the final motivation for me to make my original post here. It is a terrible mess! One area, near the outdoor market, has collapsed on one side completely - TWICE!. Another area, a few hundred meters before that, has deep holes on both sides of the road that just keep growing. Those are the type of problems that I believe should be addressed, even if only with methods like that suggested by Humphrey. As I said above, a "year or so" would be fantastic right now!

But, Chuck, your last comment indicates that you've been here too long. You've become Thai. Just accept the problems, don't try to fix them? I'm too fresh from the USA to be at that point yet. I mean, we Americans would have just paid those high tea taxes, and still be singing "God Save The Queen", if we followed that philosophy! :-) (No, I'm NOT suggesting that we start a revolution in Thailand to get better roads!) :-)

[Mobi]

The first time I drove up Siam Country Club Road was 1978. It was in the same condition then that it is now.

Mobi has it about right for East Pattaya. The heavy construction trucks keep the roads in a state of disrepair, when you couple it with shoddy work, incompetent officials and the ever present hand under the table.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Funny you should mention Siam CC Rd. That's the one I travel most often to get into Pattaya; and was the final motivation for me to make my original post here. It is a terrible mess! One area, near the outdoor market, has collapsed on one side completely - TWICE!. Another area, a few hundred meters before that, has deep holes on both sides of the road that just keep growing. Those are the type of problems that I believe should be addressed, even if only with methods like that suggested by Humphrey. As I said above, a "year or so" would be fantastic right now!

But, Chuck, your last comment indicates that you've been here too long. You've become Thai. Just accept the problems, don't try to fix them? I'm too fresh from the USA to be at that point yet. I mean, we Americans would have just paid those high tea taxes, and still be singing "God Save The Queen", if we followed that philosophy! :-) (No, I'm NOT suggesting that we start a revolution in Thailand to get better roads!) :-)

The problem of bad roads is not just in Pattaya - it is endemic in the whole country. During a recent medical visit to BKK. my doctor was most concerned that I would have to drive back after dark, on what she considered one of the most dangerous roads in the country - which it is - the part between the end of the motorway and Pattaya - no lights, countless, badly sign-posted diversions, huge pot holes, and trucks coming straight at you on the wrong side of the road.

My wife's village in Sa kaeo, which usually has passable roads, is now suffering badly from storm ravaged potholed tracks, and there have been two motor cycle deaths in the past week alone. These stories, I am sure, could be repeated for every province in the land.

Chuck hasn't been here too long - he's just being realistic. There's absolutely nothing you, as a farang or indeed any private citizen can do about it. Even if we all clubbed togther and hired our own road construction crew to go out and fix the potholes, I bet you we'd be stopped in our tracks by the police and/or local government officers and/or vested interests.

I live in Pong and often use the the Siam CC road, or the 3240 'True' road to get into Pattaya. Both are now collapsing under the strain of trucks and rain. But I always knew this may happen when I had the Mobi mansion built, and I have a good alternative, as I am only 2 minutes drive from the Bangkok/Rayong highway, and I can happily drive into Pattaya that way - slightly further, but certainly quicker.

I took all this into account when selecting my house location - the result of being here too long and knowing the 'ropes'.

Jolly hockey sticks and God save the Queen

[Humphrey Bear]

You mentioned "a few liters of cold-cure asphalt" as possibly lasting for a year or so. Well isn't that a h*ll of a lot better than leaving the holes, as they do now?

That's the kind of thing I'm suggesting we investigate, and, perhaps, help with. Can't we at least get repairs done, at a reasonalble cost, that would last a few months to a year?

If the local authority enter the repair on their database as 'temporary' and put in a date for permanent repair - yes, this works.

The problem is that while there is almost always funding available for capital investment, there is seldom an adequate allotment for maintenance work.

I've built everything from farm roads to motorways in my time, although power stations are my speciality and I am currently involved with an eleven billion dollar petrochem plant. (with roads :-) ).

Most of your East Pattaya roads were built for access only - i.e. light vehicles with a low axle weight. But with the enormous amount of building that has taken place over the past fifteen to twenty years (especially in the last 5-8 years) the roads are simply not adequate, from sub-base upwards. Traffic volume, axle numbers / weight, all need to be re-calculated and a new road system put in. But the costs of this would be enormous. Should have been paid by the developers when they received planning permission for new compounds. On second thoughts, it probably was!

[astral]

The only way to help is stay at home and do not add to the road wear and tear.

You would need a work permit to help in the crew.

Is it worth the hassle?

[patsfangr]

The only way to help is stay at home and do not add to the road wear and tear.

You would need a work permit to help in the crew.

Is it worth the hassle?

That is a question that can only be answered at the individual level, Astral. However, I'm not suggesting that anyone change their Visa type (mine is "Retirement") to help with this problem. Some here, undoubtedly, have a Visa type that would allow them to obtain a work permit, if they don't already have one. Some of us could "work", while some of us could help financially.

Here's a radical idea, which I acknowledge as such. What if some ftrarang were to set up a company ... let's say the "Pattaya Farang Road Repair Company" ... which used rented trucks, and Thai workers, to make quality road repairs. This hypothetical company would publish a phone number which could be called to report serious road damage. The company would send an investigator to evaluate the damage, and, based upon the severity of the damage, and the volume of traffic on the road, assign a specific priority to the repair of the hole(s). Repair crews, with quality repair equipment, would be dispatched to repair the damaged areas, in the order specified by those priorities.

This company would negotiate with the local authorities to convince them of its sincerity, and commit itself to rapid repair of the roads, at NO COST to the Thai community. The funding for this activity would be provided by voluntary contributions from US ... the farang community that has chosen to live in this beautiful country because, for most of us, we can't afford the overall quality of life we have here in our own countries! Sound reasonable to anybody?

I'm an American. I love my country. I served in the US Army in Vietnam, and I would be willing to put my life on the line anytime to preserve the values for which the USA stands. But the simple fact is that living in the USA is very expensive. As a retiree, I could not afford the same property, or the same overall lifestyle, that I can enjoy here in Thailand. That's why I'm here.

I would never consider an effort to make Thailand adopt the culture of the USA. However, I do believe that physical changes that improve the day-to-day quality of life of people living here, whether Thai or foreign, should be made. Those of us with the financial strength to do so, which means MOST farangs living here, should make that effort.

So can't we come up with a plan to do this one simple thing? Can't we create an effective road repair process, for a reasonable cost? Can't we work with the Thai authorities, without interfering with their authority (or their income!), to create such a process?

Come on, folks. Let's put our knowledge, our initiative, and our finances together to get this done! The posts already made in this thread show that it IS possible to do it!

[Humphrey Bear]

Hate to be negative, but if a speeding motorbike ridden by an underage Thai high on yaa baa happened to skid on your repair, and the guy was killed or seriously injured, who do you think would be liable for the costs? If it had been a government or local authority contract, with a benefit to the contractor for work done, and had been properly signed-off on completion, the the contractor is in the clear.

But no benefit? No contract? Legally very dodgy.

[Mobi]

Well, I wish you guys and your project the best of luck.

I will give you all the moral support I can for your worthy intentions, but frankly I won't be contributing anything. For 3 reasons:

First and foremost, if I have any spare cash to give away, it will go on more deserving causes than road repairs. The Mercy Centre and other deserving charities spring immediately to mind.

Secondly, I'm sorry to be negative, but I'll be amazed if you get more a handful of contributors - and I doubt even that. I know this from my experience at trying to raise cash from farangs to help destitute and dying kids.

Last but not least, even if you did get your wonderful organisation set up and ready to roll, I will be amazed if you get permission to do anything. The bureaucracy and red tape in this country is something to behold, and the civil servants will undoubtedly resent any farang organisation that purports to do what they should be doing. They hate that - it's big loss of face.They will put every possible obstacle in your way.

And I haven't even mentioned the panic you will create, just contemplating the potential loss all the lovely kickbacks they would normally receive from road contractors.

Anyway, good luck, and prove me wrong!

[DeputyDawg]

I have bookmarked this post and made a note in my diary to check back in 5 years time to see how the OP's views are then.

[patsfangr]

I have bookmarked this post and made a note in my diary to check back in 5 years time to see how the OP's views are then.

I suspect that my views will not have changed, Dawg. My frustration, however, will likely have grown, if it hasn't killed me by then. ;-)

I recognize the barriers noted in this thread to the possibility of an "independent" road repair crew. I didn't seriously expect that this could ever be accomplished, for all of the reasons stated by Humphrey and Mobi.

I did hope, however, that there might be some suggestions for a way to present an effective protest/request to the responsible parties for improvement. Isn't there something we can do that will carry more weight than one farang marching into the local Or Bi Tor (sp?)?

Isn't there some practical, realistic way for us to present constructive criticism, without being accusatory, or causing any loss of face for those in charge? What about asking them to set up a "hotline" for the specific purpose of reporting dangerous potholes?

Do all of you really feel that we should just grin and bear it, with no effort to effect improvement?

[Naam]

I have bookmarked this post and made a note in my diary to check back in 5 years time to see how the OP's views are then.

idealistic minds need more time till they accept reality.

[CGW]

I was told some years back that the one area a Falang would never get a job\permit was civil construction, this sector was 100% reserved for Thai, some would say Mafia types? The money made from road building must be astronomical!

Rememeber five years or so ago when they renewed Soi Chayaipruk (Sukhumvit to the beach) they put in new surface and DRAINS, a year later they did it all over again as contractor had ommitted the drains, though he had put the covers in, obviously the right people gained from this venture!

Noticed that the "Winchester" bar is all boarded up, it's main demise IMHO can be put down to roads, it was impossible to get there for about a year as the road was being replaced!

I dont believe it is possible for "us" to have any influence on Thai society on this subject - too deep, and probably dangerous!

Cheers

[Mobi]

I dont believe it is possible for "us" to have any influence on Thai society on this subject - too deep, and probably dangerous!

Cheers

Agreed 100%

If you have money to burn, put it to more compassionate use, IMHO.

As I previously posted, I think in the long term the situation in East Pattaya will improve when all the bi-passes and major highway extensions are completed.

Also, as you'll never beat them, choose your residence location wisely, and try to anticipate deterioration of any minor roads in your area as the push for urbanisation gathers pace.

[Maigo6]

I was told some years back that the one area a Falang would never get a job\permit was civil construction, this sector was 100% reserved for Thai, some would say Mafia types?

There's a lot of money to be made, in Japan the Yakuza are heavily involved in construction, roads, goverment contracts etc......the fortunes to be made are the reason.

That's the reason why roads are built, then dug up again, then relayed.

Years ago the then Mayor of Pattaya had a road construction Company and made untold millions, it was probably in his wifes name.

[DirkGently]

We could give a corkscrew and an onion to a duck and sit back as it out performs the bozos that are messing up the On-Nut paths.

It blows my mind to watch them use wet cement and not block it off to dogs, people and motor bikes. They have turned some areas into something the Afgans would moan about.

They have taken a passible pavement and turned it into a flood prone, un-safe, un-level assult course. As one post said "they use sub-standard men and materials", it seems they use sub-standard brains too.

[Humphrey Bear]

I was told some years back that the one area a Falang would never get a job\permit was civil construction, this sector was 100% reserved for Thai, some would say Mafia types? The money made from road building must be astronomical!

Not quite true. As a specialist I was employed on Suvarnabhumi for about eighteen months (not the runways - they were 100% Thai). But one has to be an engineer, basically. If you're a bum-crack boy you'll not be able to compete with the Thai labour.

But you must also realise that the local authority contracts go to the lowest bidder. And if someone bids below-cost, rhen they've got to make their profit from cutting corners. It is up to the local authority to appoint competent, qualified inspectors to see that the work is done according to the relevant standards. I watched a lot of Pattaya Tai being re-paved a year or two ago. I would have thrown the crew off after one day. They had no idea of what they were doing, they had no supervision, they had no equipment to speak of (and labour cannot do what a plate compactor will do) and there appeared to be no LA inspection for the month or so that I was visiting Tukcom and other places on a daily basis.

This is a third world country, with third world standards. Do not believe (as many Thais do) that this will improve in the forseeable future. Malaysia was like this twenty years ago - now KL can compete with any other capital in the area. Their workers are coming up to Western standards in many disciplines. Regrettably in the construction field Thais do not measure up.

Edited May 17, 2007 by Humphrey Bear

[CGW]

Improving the standard of the roads is going to take time - ???

Preventing some damage to the roads?

POLICE the over weight, speeding, polluting trucks that tear about town as if they owned the roads and were above the Police -

Not going to happen in the near future is it

As so rightly stated, this is still a third world country - so -

Cheers

Edited May 18, 2007 by CGW

[Tammi]

And the local press reports nothing about this. The Pattaya Mail and Pattaya Today are absolutely useless at reporting anything of substance and keeping at it.

[Mobi]

Improving the standard of the roads is going to take time - ???

Preventing some damage to the roads?

POLICE the over weight, speeding, polluting trucks that tear about town as if they owned the roads and were above the Police -

Not going to happen in the near future is it

As so rightly stated, this is still a third world country - so -

Cheers

It's also, sadly a dual standard country. There's Bangkok - and the rest of Thailand. While Bangkok is by no means perfect, you will find a much higher standard of road building and repairs in the city than you will find anywhere else in Thailand. And when they have a major project, like a new highway, or flyover, it is done at the speed of light compared to elsewhere.

Same goes for building construction - from the properly managed building sites with all the workers wearing hard hats, to the incredible workmanship in some of the newer hotels and skyscrapers.

It can be done if they want to - they just don't give a shit. Look at the thread in general topics about the unbelievable service and 21st century technology at the Passport of office in Cheang Wattana - it would put most of the western world's passport offices to shame.

Then today I read in the local rag, that despite assurances months ago that the Mabprachan reservoir was now hooked up to other water sources in Chon Buri and that all our water problems are a thing of the past - they now admit that it is not hooked up after all and have no idea if it ever will be. I wonder if the budget for that project disappeared into some worthy's deep pocket?

This isn't a rant - it's just a reality check. Those roads ain't gonna be fixed any time soon - by anyone - charitable farangs or illegal Cambodian rice pickers

TIT

[raro]

And the local press reports nothing about this. The Pattaya Mail and Pattaya Today are absolutely useless at reporting anything of substance and keeping at it.

right...there's only one newspaper in town that dares when others keep silent....

[Humphrey Bear]

And the local press reports nothing about this. The Pattaya Mail and Pattaya Today are absolutely useless at reporting anything of substance and keeping at it.

right...there's only one newspaper in town that dares when others keep silent....

You can't possibly be talking about Chubby Howard and PCN

Nor Pattaya Daily News - so let us in on the secret ........

[english_farang_lady]

Mobi, sad to say, you are spot on.

We live 2 mins from the motorway too, and use both Siam Country Club road and True to get into Pattaya.

Earlier in this thread you said

"The only light on the horizon is that when all the current round of new highways are completed (there's at least 3 new major highways currently being built in and through Eastern Pattaya)".

Can think of two new roads, the one beside the rail tracks, and one we think the extension of the Bkk motorway, passing somewhere near the water treatment plant a mile or two up the 'True' road. But where, is the third?

And by the way, absolutely agree with you (and your wise doctor) on the latter part of the road from Bkk to Ptya, absolute death trap. Journey time also increased massively due to all the badly signed

chicanes (sp?). Keep posting Mobi, I look out for your posts, usually very interesting and informative.

[Mobi]

Mobi, sad to say, you are spot on.

We live 2 mins from the motorway too, and use both Siam Country Club road and True to get into Pattaya.

Earlier in this thread you said

"The only light on the horizon is that when all the current round of new highways are completed (there's at least 3 new major highways currently being built in and through Eastern Pattaya)".

Can think of two new roads, the one beside the rail tracks, and one we think the extension of the Bkk motorway, passing somewhere near the water treatment plant a mile or two up the 'True' road. But where, is the third?

And by the way, absolutely agree with you (and your wise doctor) on the latter part of the road from Bkk to Ptya, absolute death trap. Journey time also increased massively due to all the badly signed

chicanes (sp?). Keep posting Mobi, I look out for your posts, usually very interesting and informative.

Thank you for your kind words

You're probably right, I guess there are only two roads being built.

I got the idea in my head that there is a third one somewhere, but I can't remember who told me or precisely where it may be.

I must be getting old.

Monty's the expert - he would know.