Bangkok Pattaya Hospital..Where is the Care?...

[qualtrough]

Here is another question that may have been lost among all the other issues. If it has been addressed and I missed it my apologies. Why did a large hospital like BPH, catering to a farang population and in an area heavily populated by farangs, not have an adequate blood supply on hand? Was Matt's type really that unusual?

[ErikD]

This is an absolute disgrace and I too add my sincerest condolences.

If a public protest is being held the date, time, and place of it ought to be publicised and also details given here well in advance.

Can we also have a spokesperson from Bangkok Pattaya to give their side, if they have one?

And the likes of the Pattaya Mail, Pattaya City News etc etc as well as the Bangkok Post and Nation and all TV stations and other media outlets really ought to give this matter priority reporting and investigation.

An important public statement from the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya

It has been alleged in the press that a severely injured man was not accepted by Bangkok Hospital Pattaya and that the injured man "died in the ambulance on this unnecessary journey" (to Chonburi Hospital), and "if they (the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya) would have accepted him … then maybe he would still be alive."

In the light of these statements, the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya would like the following to be known:

An injured American male was brought to Bangkok Hospital Pattaya by Sawang Boriboon Rescue at 10 a.m. on 28 April, 2007. A speeding truck had hit the victim while he was riding his motorcycle, resulting in multiple serious injuries.

Our doctor at Emergency Room noted the multiple serious injuries, and immediate treatment was given and an urgent CT scan was done. Four specialist doctors (Orthopedic Surgeon, Cardiovascular Thoracic Surgeon, and two General Surgeons) attended the man promptly.

The injuries had produced massive blood loss and treatment was instituted, including the following :

1 Restoration of the blood volume with transfusions and pump to bring up the blood pressure.

2. Keeping his blood pressure and pulse up with medications

3. Supply of oxygen via endo-tracheal tube

4. Removal of blood from inside the chest cavity

5. Stabilization of his fracture site.

He had lost a lot of blood and received 4 units while he was at Bangkok Hospital Pattaya. As we could not immediately supply enough of the type of blood that he needed, the medical team then decided to transfer him to Chonburi Hospital for further treatment and surgery, after the Chonburi Hospital confirmed that they had a large quantity of his blood group type. The patient's medical condition dictated the urgent transfer to another hospital.

He had been accepted and treated by our hospital and was not just "put in the back of a pick-up truck and sent all the way to Chonburi." The real situation was that following emergency diagnosis and treatment, he was sent by ambulance, with an accompanying doctor and two nurses.

Our policy for patients presenting as emergencies is that they are accepted immediately without administrative delay. Formal admission proceedings and/or transfer will be made later, after the patient's condition has been stabilized as far as is possible.

Allegations that this injured man was turned away, or not accepted by this hospital, are totally incorrect.

Along with his many friends in Pattaya, the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya wishes to extend its sympathies to his family.

I am sure that all of you are saying "Surely it would have been safer and simpler to have the blood sent from Chonburi and Matt kept in ICU at BHP with all the surgeons and doctors thoroughly acquainted with his case".

Is BHP saying it does not have the facilities and capability to do the required surgery after the fairly basic treatments of endo-tracheal intubation, chest cavity drainage, and fracture stabilization.

If any of us sustain injuries like Matt's will we too be sent to Chonburi Hospital?

I think this statement by BHP is a cop out.

Of course it would have been more appropriate to find the right blood and have it brought to the hospital, moving Matt in his condition was ludicrous! Who took the decision to transfer him in his condition? And why?

Has a statement from Chonburi hospital been asked for? It would be interesting to know what they were told by BHP and the reason they were given for transferring Matt to that hospital.

BPH advertises its 'excellent' emergency services all over and prides itself on its well equipped trauma unit so what happened here?

It is very concerning that they could not deal with serious RTA injuries especially when we are told that this hospital is where most of the accident victims in Pattaya are taken.

The latest question about not having an adequate blood supply at BHP is also very relevant, why did they not have adequate blood for him? was Matt's blood type really that unusual?

The statement from BHP is totally inadequate and raises more questions than it answers.

[R123]

Qualtrough you make a good and valid point, well done.

As do you too EricD.

And lets' try to stick to the real issue.

The initial complaint was in effect that BP refused to treat the victim, and put him in the back of a pick up truck and he was sent to another hospital and died on the way.This now appears to be incorrect if what the hospital say is true.

What we need to know from medical experts, like trauma doctors etc, is whether assuming what BP say is accurate, whether the treatment and actions they took were reasonable and/or non negligent in all the circiumstances.

So what do u real doctors say, who have no vested interest in this case?

Easy to criticise BP and we have all heard horror stories about that place.

But we are concerned with this particular tragedy.

Edited May 14, 2007 by R123

[Mobi]

This hospital is not concerned about losing business. The only thing they are concerned with is Baht. Most of the doctors are good doctors for treatment of common ilneses. I would not suggest thid fscility for serious ilness or surgery. they have a helaport on the roof of the new building, and Matt could have easily been stabalized and coptered to bangkok, where they have the surgeons and facilities to deal with serious Trama.

Matt was also my sons teaher.

Barry

Sorry Barry, but you have lost me.

Business is Baht isn't it? And losing business is less Baht?

I have been in that hospital on a number of occasions, and while I have no real idea what the percentage of farangs is to Thais that are treated there, It always seemed to me that there was a greater preponderance of farangs than Thais milling around the waiting rooms. And if you remember their frequently denied policy of not just double pricing, but fleecing unwary farangs for whatever they can get away with, then there is no doubt in my mind that they are very concerned about any loss of farang business, and what effect the 'word of mouth', to say nothing of internet forums and adverse press and TV reports may have on future farang business.

When I had a set to with them when they screwed up my teeth, and I threatened to tell the world; they pulled out every stop in the book to get me back, and calm me down, which included non stop nuisance calling both me, and my wife for about 3 days, until I finally got fed up, and allowed them to right their wrongs. When I returned to the hopsital I was met by a deputation who bowed so low, their noses almost touched the ground.....

But we digress....and knowing them as well as I do - and not just from that dental incident - I would say their statement about Matt's treatment is probably a heap of shit. They probably spent hours, in committee, putting that statement togther; one that was low on facts, and high on fiction, but would probably see them through, as no-one would be likely to challenge it, and if they did, they would just be 'rubbished'. Bluff and their way out of it, as they do with any criticism - dual pricing, mis-treatment, whatever.

I tell you these guys are rogues of the first order - Thaksin would have been proud of them.

Edited May 14, 2007 by Mobi D'Ark

[Tired]

So you graciously "allowed" them to right their wrongs... some how you make it sound negative that they wanted to do it. I can imagine what you would have written if they hadn't offered to right their wrongs....! The expression "damned if they do, damned if they don't" comes to mind.

Why demand a statement from the hospital if you won't believe a word anyway?

[Mobi]

So you graciously "allowed" them to right their wrongs... some how you make it sound negative that they wanted to do it. I can imagine what you would have written if they hadn't offered to right their wrongs....! The expression "damned if they do, damned if they don't" comes to mind.

Why demand a statement from the hospital if you won't believe a word anyway?

I am negative because they were only trying to protect their backsides and keep future business, and stop me from bad mouthing them - not because they could give a shit about my treatment - which still didn't match up to what I later had done in Bangkok.

Yes I 'graciously let them right their wrongs', mainly because they were causing quite a lot of distress to my wife - calling her repeatedly all day long, putting pressure on her to persuade me to come and see them and have my problems sorted. It was a 'Thai to Thai' thing, and she was becoming quite distraught, and as it wasn't her problem, but they just had her number, and kept calling her after getting nowhere by calling me. I tell you these people are something else.

I didn't 'demand' any statement from any hospital. I was merely commenting on the one that was made.

You seem determined to find some issues with my posts on this subject.

Maybe you have something positive to contribute to this tragic story?

- or is it that you just enjoy your pathetic little 'put downs'?

[Tired]

Yes, I do have something positive to contribute.

Positive: People just found out that we do receive emergency medical treatment at private hospitals in Thailand.

[suiging]

Must be ' tired ' after his long shift in PR at the BPH.

[suiging]

I am stuck waiting for the BK flight here in Helsinki as we speak, but for wht it's worth here's my two pennies.

I am returnig home after attending my mothers funeral in the UK. I have posted before that she received excellent treatment which saved her life in the BKPH and to her last breath she was still talking about the fantastic care given by the staff in general. All was not roses. What she didn't see was the Dickensian weasel the group sent from BK to try to convince my father to have pointless and expensive heart surgury at a time when such intervention would have undoubtedly killed her.

So as I have been informed on another thread, there is always two sides to a story. Certainly not all staff in the hospital are money grabers, the frontline were professional and streets ahead of the UK in their treatment of my mom, but behind the facade the bean counters certainly lurk.

As to this tragic tale, the hospital's statement makes no sense. Why would the self-acclaimed best equipped, best run, most professional outfit send such a mortally traumatised man on such an awful journey ?

If they now admit they can not attend to severly injured victims without the help of under funded *local* free ( to a degree) establishments, what can they do ?

Quickly prepared, unbeliveable statements from a bunch of ' caught out ' Baht coffin chasers.

Sorry to ramble six hour wait for connection helped by some rather good Finnish beer.

Edited May 14, 2007 by suiging

[farangfool]

The most scary aspect of this scandal is that they pay the ambulance to bring them victims. THen they decide if the poor prey is worth their consideration. They take the profitable ones and dump the others. And they dont think that anything might be wrong with it.... Sounds like German physicians in 1939...

Today a friend emailed me. He has spoken to Thai friends in Pattaya. It turns out that a German died 2 years ago at the hospital and his family is less than happy about what happened. They might post the details to this thread. Also, Thais appear to have been protesting at the hospital against a variety of financial and other abuses. Surprise, surprise no notice about it in the press.

I think if we can get enough info collected in this thread and maybe have a "BPH watch" thread for the purpose, we will get mass media coverage sooner or later.

Does anyone have an idea how to escape the hospital's scavengers in case of an emergency?

I never had any idea how dangerous pattaya could be and foolish me, I even felt comfortable that this hospital is around. Matt's case is a warning to all of us. It could have been anyone - this time we were lucky but who is next to fall victim to this meatgrinder?

[Mobi]

Thank you Suiging and farangfool,

I think between you you have summed up the situation perfectly.

I too thought that in an emergency i had somewhere decent to go in Pattaya, and now I am quite worried where to send my loved ones. And I'm not just talking money here, although as time goes on, there are more and more horror stories of farangs admitted in ER, kept over night for observation, and faced bills of 40,000 Baht and upwards - for one night!!! I know of one personally (of course he was insured), and I even heard of a Thai recently who had a 30K Baht+ bill for an overnight, and quickly transferred himself to BKK.

No, the stories go on and on... and Suiging, I remember yours well. Of course all hospitals will have some negative publicity and criticisms, but I have never seen so much about a single medical institution.

As I said earlier, you very rarely hear or read any complaints about the Bangkok hospitals - usually only compliments.

Tired, I see you are a Newbie, and I wonder indeed if Suiging hasn't sussed you? Why else would you defend the indefensible, and make bad jokes about it?

Poor Mat would have probably been better off if he had never gone near that place.

Edited May 15, 2007 by Mobi D'Ark

[farangfool]

I also received the new public statement by email. It seems that the hospital takes our protests serious and that we have some impact. My email-program was - I should say "of course" - as usual much smarter than me and had the email in the spam folder....

Again, they spoon feed us with some information but fail to address the crucial issue of the transfer at all. They simply contradict themselves stating that they had consulted with Chonburi and surely obtained all relevant data and then transferred a man who was attended by 4 (!) physicians. THe travel party consisted of 2 nurses and 1 physician - so they know how critical the victim's condition was and they still decided to do it. Does the hospital take us for total idiots?

The pre-registering of insurance IDs etc might be helpful for some but how many people can do this? Maybe the "new" Pattaya advertized by those interested in tourism should add to their press-releases etc. : "Please register with the local hospital, otherwise they might let you die...."

In reality, the hospital's suggestion is nothing but a arrogant slap into the face of the public. They simply state that they we will go on treating people as they did; that they see no reason to take any lessons from the death of Matt or the the concerns of the public; and by making the suggestion they affirm that you might be left to die if you dont register. In my view this comes pretty close to an intentional threat.

People talked about the drug mafia and other forms of organized criminal activity in Pattaya. Should we include that hospital into this circle of scum?

In sum, the new statement falls far short of re-assuring me. Actually, it makes me even more worried. It is time to take closer look at the other hospitals and their capabilities.

[NanLaew]

I also received the new public statement by email. It seems that the hospital takes our protests serious and that we have some impact. My email-program was - I should say "of course" - as usual much smarter than me and had the email in the spam folder....

Again, they spoon feed us with some information but fail to address the crucial issue of the transfer at all. They simply contradict themselves stating that they had consulted with Chonburi and surely obtained all relevant data and then transferred a man who was attended by 4 (!) physicians. THe travel party consisted of 2 nurses and 1 physician - so they know how critical the victim's condition was and they still decided to do it. Does the hospital take us for total idiots?

The pre-registering of insurance IDs etc might be helpful for some but how many people can do this? Maybe the "new" Pattaya advertized by those interested in tourism should add to their press-releases etc. : "Please register with the local hospital, otherwise they might let you die...."

In reality, the hospital's suggestion is nothing but a arrogant slap into the face of the public. They simply state that they we will go on treating people as they did; that they see no reason to take any lessons from the death of Matt or the the concerns of the public; and by making the suggestion they affirm that you might be left to die if you dont register. In my view this comes pretty close to an intentional threat.

People talked about the drug mafia and other forms of organized criminal activity in Pattaya. Should we include that hospital into this circle of scum?

In sum, the new statement falls far short of re-assuring me. Actually, it makes me even more worried. It is time to take closer look at the other hospitals and their capabilities.

can you possibly post the 'new public statement' that you received so that both sides of the story are maintained in the thread? am i correct in understanding that BPH have now issued 2 statements?

many thanks

[farangfool]

This is the new statement. It is a modified version of the older press release. Importantly, there are np 2 sides to this story. We are faced with disinformation and silence on the part of the hospital. Only our coordinated pressure has brought some light into this affair.

An important public statement from the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya

It has been alleged in the press that a severely injured man was not accepted by Bangkok Hospital Pattaya and that the injured man “died …. on this unnecessary journey” (to Chonburi Hospital), and “if they (the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya) would have accepted him … then maybe he would still be alive.”

We acknowledge the concerns of the expat community and consequently feel it necessary to correct some misconceptions and misinformation.

Although we are a private hospital, we are registered and accepted as the emergency center in Pattaya by the Chonburi Provincial authorities and Pattaya City. Our policy does not differentiate between Thais or foreigners presenting as emergencies, and they are accepted immediately without administrative delay. Formal admission proceedings and/or transfer will be made later, after the patient’s condition has been stabilized as far as is medically possible.

Following allegations by one newspaper and repeated on some websites, it seems that sections of the expat community are under the impression that we turned away an injured American (quote) “because he was not carrying any ID, so he was put in the back of a pick-up truck and sent all the way to Chonburi and died of internal bleeding on the way.” We entirely refute those statements as being totally untrue. The real situation is as follows:

The injured American male was brought to Bangkok Hospital Pattaya at 10 a.m. on 28 April, 2007. A speeding truck had hit the victim while he was riding his motorcycle, resulting in multiple serious injuries.

Our doctor at Emergency Room noted the injuries, and immediate treatment was given and an urgent CT scan was done. Four specialist doctors (Orthopedic Surgeon, Cardiovascular Thoracic Surgeon, and two General Surgeons) attended the man promptly.

The injuries had produced massive blood loss and treatment was instituted, including the following :

1 Restoration of the blood volume with transfusions and pump to bring up the blood pressure.

2. Keeping his blood pressure and pulse up with medications

3. Supply of oxygen via endo-tracheal tube

4. Removal of blood from inside the chest cavity

5. Stabilization of his fracture site.

He had lost a lot of blood and received 4 units while he was at Bangkok Hospital Pattaya. Our blood stocks are such that we can supply 99.9 percent of the emergency and our routine surgery needs, however the man’s condition was such that he would need enormous quantities of blood. The closest hospital with access to large volumes is Chonburi Hospital, and after discussions with them, the medical team decided to transfer him to Chonburi Hospital for further treatment and surgery. The patient’s medical condition dictated the urgent transfer, as it is not a simple matter getting blood supplies from another hospital’s blood bank. Administrative logistics within the public hospital system, and the need to cross-match against the patient’s own blood, means that it would be quicker sending the patient to Chonburi, than getting permission for the blood to be released and then sent here for cross-match.

Far from being turned away and “put in the back of a pick-up truck”, he had been accepted and treated and transfused by our hospital and was sent in an ambulance, with an accompanying doctor and two nurses.

Whilst in this case, his ID had been ascertained (and we had informed his father in America), as a general rule, we do encourage everyone to carry some form of ID and details of next of kin (Thais have their ID card and foreigners have their passports or a copy of it). We are also willing to ‘pre-register’ your ID and next of kin and insurance details in our data bank, if you wish.

Along with his many friends in Pattaya, the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya wishes to extend its sympathies to his family, and we hope the understanding of the true situation will offer some comfort for the bereaved.

Yours sincerely,

Dr. Surapant Taweewikayakarn MD

Assistant Director

Bangkok Hospital Pattaya.

[NanLaew]

Thank you Suiging and farangfool,

I think between you you have summed up the situation perfectly.

I too thought that in an emergency i had somewhere decent to go in Pattaya, and now I am quite worried where to send my loved ones. And I'm not just talking money here, although as time goes on, there are more and more horror stories of farangs admitted in ER, kept over night for observation, and faced bills of 40,000 Baht and upwards - for one night!!! I know of one personally (of course he was insured), and I even heard of a Thai recently who had a 30K Baht+ bill for an overnight, and quickly transferred himself to BKK.

No, the stories go on and on... and Suiging, I remember yours well. Of course all hospitals will have some negative publicity and criticisms, but I have never seen so much about a single medical institution.

As I said earlier, you very rarely hear or read any complaints about the Bangkok hospitals - usually only compliments.

Tired, I see you are a Newbie, and I wonder indeed if Suiging hasn't sussed you? Why else would you defend the indefensible, and make bad jokes about it?

Poor Mat would have probably been better off if he had never gone near that place.

Seems like the 'gang of three' are hel_l-bent on trying to reform the BPH of it's evil ways. Best of luck there IF there is a proven case of malpractice be it medical, ethical or fiscal. I am not trying to hijack any thread as claimed as I will be first to admit there are undeniably some unanswered questions but only hearsay and unsubstantiated rumour seems to be fueling and somewhat clouding the debate.

It is a good observation that the new BPH building has a helideck and the option of a medivac to Bangkok could be an obvious lifesaver in the future. However, does anyone know if such a service exists in Bangkok first before anyone starts suggesting that this was a serious option in the case at hand?

To claim that one has been blinded to the possibility of inferior emergency medical care at BPH after experiencing personally their shortcomings in basic remedial medical care and reading many, many posts over many, many months on this forum on the same subject is a stretch of the imagination. It is well known that Bamrungrad is the jewel in the crown in Thailand but the infrastructure to make it a viable ER for Pattaya residents does not appear to exist. However, some would decline to use that establishment due to the costs which although higher than any Pattaya facility, are still much cheaper than anything in the west. I believe it was rated in the 'top-ten' globally in an article in Newsweek (that they mention on their website).

I think the issue of adequate emergency medical evacuation for a population the size of Pattaya and it's environs is a very serious one. But keep in mind that this is a city where for years there were no firetrucks with ladders and the ones they use now are still mostly bamboo and the volunteer fireman turn up for action wearing flip-flops. And you have to admit, the strobes and sirens on any emergency response vehicle in this country are nothing compared to what you see and hear at home. Almost like a resignation that someone is going to die anyway but they must make some effort. Tragically, life does have a different value here but we sometimes seem to forget that.

[farangfool]

I think it is best to focus on the available information, the contradictions in the hospital's statements, the hospital's admitted policy and the consequences for all of us resulting from such conduct.

Pointless gossip about Thailand, firebrigades, other hospitals etc. are indeed an attempt to hijack the discussion here, be it for reasons of personal ego issues or being professionally or otherwise attached to that hospital. This matter is just too important to allow obstructionists to win. Our own health is at stake and that of those we love.

So far, the hospital does not meet the minimum expectations about transparency but shockingly admitted that we better register with them in order to avoid facing the same fate like the last victim. What else do we need to know about that place?

[NanLaew]

This is the new statement. It is a modified version of the older press release. Importantly, there are np 2 sides to this story. We are faced with disinformation and silence on the part of the hospital. Only our coordinated pressure has brought some light into this affair.

An important public statement from the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya

It has been alleged in the press that a severely injured man was not accepted by Bangkok Hospital Pattaya and that the injured man “died …. on this unnecessary journey” (to Chonburi Hospital), and “if they (the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya) would have accepted him … then maybe he would still be alive.”

We acknowledge the concerns of the expat community and consequently feel it necessary to correct some misconceptions and misinformation.

Although we are a private hospital, we are registered and accepted as the emergency center in Pattaya by the Chonburi Provincial authorities and Pattaya City. Our policy does not differentiate between Thais or foreigners presenting as emergencies, and they are accepted immediately without administrative delay. Formal admission proceedings and/or transfer will be made later, after the patient’s condition has been stabilized as far as is medically possible.

Following allegations by one newspaper and repeated on some websites, it seems that sections of the expat community are under the impression that we turned away an injured American (quote) “because he was not carrying any ID, so he was put in the back of a pick-up truck and sent all the way to Chonburi and died of internal bleeding on the way.” We entirely refute those statements as being totally untrue. The real situation is as follows:

The injured American male was brought to Bangkok Hospital Pattaya at 10 a.m. on 28 April, 2007. A speeding truck had hit the victim while he was riding his motorcycle, resulting in multiple serious injuries.

Our doctor at Emergency Room noted the injuries, and immediate treatment was given and an urgent CT scan was done. Four specialist doctors (Orthopedic Surgeon, Cardiovascular Thoracic Surgeon, and two General Surgeons) attended the man promptly.

The injuries had produced massive blood loss and treatment was instituted, including the following :

1 Restoration of the blood volume with transfusions and pump to bring up the blood pressure.

2. Keeping his blood pressure and pulse up with medications

3. Supply of oxygen via endo-tracheal tube

4. Removal of blood from inside the chest cavity

5. Stabilization of his fracture site.

He had lost a lot of blood and received 4 units while he was at Bangkok Hospital Pattaya. Our blood stocks are such that we can supply 99.9 percent of the emergency and our routine surgery needs, however the man’s condition was such that he would need enormous quantities of blood. The closest hospital with access to large volumes is Chonburi Hospital, and after discussions with them, the medical team decided to transfer him to Chonburi Hospital for further treatment and surgery. The patient’s medical condition dictated the urgent transfer, as it is not a simple matter getting blood supplies from another hospital’s blood bank. Administrative logistics within the public hospital system, and the need to cross-match against the patient’s own blood, means that it would be quicker sending the patient to Chonburi, than getting permission for the blood to be released and then sent here for cross-match.

Far from being turned away and “put in the back of a pick-up truck”, he had been accepted and treated and transfused by our hospital and was sent in an ambulance, with an accompanying doctor and two nurses.

Whilst in this case, his ID had been ascertained (and we had informed his father in America), as a general rule, we do encourage everyone to carry some form of ID and details of next of kin (Thais have their ID card and foreigners have their passports or a copy of it). We are also willing to ‘pre-register’ your ID and next of kin and insurance details in our data bank, if you wish.

Along with his many friends in Pattaya, the Bangkok Hospital Pattaya wishes to extend its sympathies to his family, and we hope the understanding of the true situation will offer some comfort for the bereaved.

Yours sincerely,

Dr. Surapant Taweewikayakarn MD

Assistant Director

Bangkok Hospital Pattaya.

many thanks for that. as requested by another poster, i hope that we have someone with valid medical training among us that can respond and contribute now that some sort of dialog does exist.

[lor]

I do not understand the bit in the statement about blood.

They say in one sentance that the patient needed massive amounts of blood. This indicates he was very ill and should not be moved and yet they say it was better to send him to the other hospital rather for the blood to be sent to them. They say "Administrative logistics within the public hospital system, and the need to cross-match against the patient’s own blood, means that it would be quicker sending the patient to Chonburi, than getting permission for the blood to be released and then sent here for cross-match." What are these Administrative logistics"? Around the world when someone needs blood urgently the blood is sent to the hospital not patient to the blood.

The only Administrative problem I can see is that by their own admission the patient needed massive amounts of blood and if the blood was sent to them they would have had to BUY it! Better to send the patient to the government hospital so no costs would be involved.

I worked in hospitals for many years (Nurse) blood comes to the patient, not the other way round.

Chris

[Tammi]

I think it is best to focus on the available information, the contradictions in the hospital's statements, the hospital's admitted policy and the consequences for all of us resulting from such conduct.

Pointless gossip about Thailand, firebrigades, other hospitals etc. are indeed an attempt to hijack the discussion here, be it for reasons of personal ego issues or being professionally or otherwise attached to that hospital. This matter is just too important to allow obstructionists to win. Our own health is at stake and that of those we love.

So far, the hospital does not meet the minimum expectations about transparency but shockingly admitted that we better register with them in order to avoid facing the same fate like the last victim. What else do we need to know about that place?

We now know that BHP does not keep large quantities of blood on hand - they could give Matt only 4 units!!!!

Perhaps Chris who posted just before this post and who was a nurse for many years can let us know about blood: e.g. cross-matching; is there a blood type that everyone can have, etc. Does every unit have to be technically cross-matched in the lab? I feel pretty sure that a unit of blood already has info on it to show what type it is and whether or not it is Rhesus negative or positive. The hospital already knows what type and Rhesus factor the patient has. Isn't it just necessary to grab a unit of blood, double check the particulars, and give it to the patient?

[Mobi]

To claim that one has been blinded to the possibility of inferior emergency medical care at BPH after experiencing personally their shortcomings in basic remedial medical care and reading many, many posts over many, many months on this forum on the same subject is a stretch of the imagination. It is well known that Bamrungrad is the jewel in the crown in Thailand but the infrastructure to make it a viable ER for Pattaya residents does not appear to exist. However, some would decline to use that establishment due to the costs which although higher than any Pattaya facility, are still much cheaper than anything in the west. I believe it was rated in the 'top-ten' globally in an article in Newsweek (that they mention on their website).

.

Sorry, I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest, but I really can't let this statement go unchallenged.

During the past 2 years I have used both Bangkok Pattaya and Bumrungrad quite extensively, for myself, my wife, my friends and family, and I know of plenty of others personally who have used both establishments at one time or another, some for mild ailments, others for serious complaints, requiring surgery. This is to say nothing of the reports I have read on this forum and others.

Two years ago, the fees and costs were roughly comparable, but even then, Bumrungrad, on the whole was slightly cheaper. Nowadays, there is simply no comparison. Bangkok Pattaya must be far and away the most expensive hospital in Thailand. I thought I had made this pretty clear in previous posts - but obviously not. Or maybe you just don't read them - 40,000 Baht (600 pounds) for an overnight and no special medication or procedure can't be far off what they would charge in the West.

In February, 2006 I had the full gamut of heart and blood tests carried out by the doctors at BP. At Bumrungrad I have just undergone the similar range of tests, but including a heart CT scan which was not done at BP , for about 70% of the cost that I paid at BP 15 months ago. And throughout the day, the heart specialist was at my side, and kept me informed of progress, and spent almost an hour going through the results with me at the end of the day - totally different the 'conveyor belt' mentality in Pattaya.

God only knows what BP would charge for the same tests today - with that swanking great new wing to pay for

[patsfangr]

There are most certainly some unaswered questions, as well as some questionable (to laymen) decisions made by BPH in this tragedy. However, I personally feel that some of the accusations against BPH are a bit extreme. My experience with the treatment and services provided there has been positive in every respect. If I may digress for a few moments, I will provide some detail.

A few months ago, I was struck with some severe pain in my kidneys and abdomen. As has always been my habit, I tried to ignore it for a couple of days, making my "expert" diagnosis that it was something temporary that would go away. It didn't. I had to be driven to the hospital at 3 AM by my wife's niece. In the ER, they checked my symptoms, wheeled me into a treatment room, and began administering some pain medication, before they collected my identification information. I don't have any insurance here. I was admitted, stabilized, and spent the night, once they determined that my condition was not immediately life threatening.

The next day, the doctor directed xrays, an ultrasound, as well as blood and urine tests. All of this revealed a severe kidney/bladder infection; the result of a grossly enlarged prostate, which had restricted the normal flow of urine, and allowed infection to start in the urine that remained in the lower part of the bladder. The doctor said that he could perform surgery on the prostate. However, he suggested that we try to treat the problems without surgery first, with medication to kill the infection, and another to reduce the size of the prostate over time.

The infection was killed within a couple of weeks. Following 3 months of the prostate medication, there was a 40% reduction in size. However, during the ultrasound verification of that, it was discovered that I had a stone in my bladder which would require some minor surgery to remove. They quoted me 45,000 baht, + or - 10%, for the procedure and a one night stay. The doctor suggested that we wait another 2 months, to allow continued reduction of the prostate, before operating.

During that wait, a friend, who has posted a couple of times in this thread, told me of horror stories about huge price increases. Before I entered the hospital, I asked for a new quote. It was the same as the original quote. The surgery was performed successfully. I spent the night, receiving excellent care, and was released the next day. The total bill was a bit below the quoted amount, excluding some home medication. I continue to see the same doctor for periodic follow up. No additional problems have ensued.

So, in summary, I cannot find fault with BPH on a personal level.

As to the tragic series of events that ended with the death of Matt, let's look at each issue.

* I have to note that there has been no repudiation of the hospital's claim that he was treated somewhat extensively when he arrived. This certainly refutes the original claim that he was "turned away". If the details of the immediate care provided are as BPH reported them, they cannot be criticized for that portion of the events.

* The lack of proper blood type confuses me. There is a "universal blood type", I believe it's O Neg. But I do not know how truly "universal" it is, or whether there are specific conditions under which it can or should be used. We also have not seen a report of Matt's specific blood type, so we can't know how rare it may or may not be. I also do not know the means by which any Thai hospital obtains its blood supply, or how much it is expected to have on hand. These are things that may need improvement, but cannot, as I see it, be labelled as failure by BPH, without knowing all of the details of blood supply processes and requirements in all Thai hospitals. So, we simply do not have enough information to determine whether or not BPH can be criticized for it's blood management.

* The decision to move him is the most questionable element here, IMO. I must agree with the contention that, to a layman, moving the blood has to be more advisable than moving a seriously injured patient. But, despite the fact that it seems obvious to we laymen, as has been said here, no doctor has come forth with specific knowledge of the patient's condition to verify that. Again, we do not have enough information to say, with any degree of certainty, that BPH made an error in making this decision.

* In any case, I don't believe there are enough facts known to condemn BPH for making a decision based solely upon economic factors. Do I believe that to be possible? Of course I do. I've seen it happen in every aspect of life, both in the USA and in Thailand. But I don't see enough evidence for anyone to state, unequivocally, that such is the case here. Further investigation of all of the details noted above is certainly justified. In any death, every detail should be investigated as thoroughly as possible to determine the whole truth. But let's not condemn before the investigation is completed. I'm sure there are many, many more stories out there from patients of BPH who are as satisfied with their treatment, and the cost of it, as I was. I'm also certain that there are as many horror stories of poor treatment, and inflated costs, from patients of virtually every hospital on the planet as have been related here about BPH.

In general, I'd say that, in most, if not all hospitals, the medical staff personnel are genuinely concerned with helping the patient, as their top priority. Likewise, in most, if not all hospitals, the administrative staff is most concerned about budget and liability. That's just life, folks. And it isn't going to change.

[wilko]

Was he wearing a crash helmet?

[astral]

He had lost a lot of blood and received 4 units while he was at Bangkok Hospital Pattaya. As we could not immediately supply enough of the type of blood that he needed, the medical team then decided to transfer him to Chonburi Hospital for further treatment and surgery,

Was he a rare blood type?

Only 4 units does not seem much to have in stock

[windosill]

Was he wearing a crash helmet?

Yes

[NanLaew]

As to the tragic series of events that ended with the death of Matt, let's look at each issue.

* I have to note that there has been no repudiation of the hospital's claim that he was treated somewhat extensively when he arrived. This certainly refutes the original claim that he was "turned away". If the details of the immediate care provided are as BPH reported them, they cannot be criticized for that portion of the events.

* The lack of proper blood type confuses me. There is a "universal blood type", I believe it's O Neg. But I do not know how truly "universal" it is, or whether there are specific conditions under which it can or should be used. We also have not seen a report of Matt's specific blood type, so we can't know how rare it may or may not be. I also do not know the means by which any Thai hospital obtains its blood supply, or how much it is expected to have on hand. These are things that may need improvement, but cannot, as I see it, be labelled as failure by BPH, without knowing all of the details of blood supply processes and requirements in all Thai hospitals. So, we simply do not have enough information to determine whether or not BPH can be criticized for it's blood management.

* The decision to move him is the most questionable element here, IMO. I must agree with the contention that, to a layman, moving the blood has to be more advisable than moving a seriously injured patient. But, despite the fact that it seems obvious to we laymen, as has been said here, no doctor has come forth with specific knowledge of the patient's condition to verify that. Again, we do not have enough information to say, with any degree of certainty, that BPH made an error in making this decision.

* In any case, I don't believe there are enough facts known to condemn BPH for making a decision based solely upon economic factors. Do I believe that to be possible? Of course I do. I've seen it happen in every aspect of life, both in the USA and in Thailand. But I don't see enough evidence for anyone to state, unequivocally, that such is the case here. Further investigation of all of the details noted above is certainly justified. In any death, every detail should be investigated as thoroughly as possible to determine the whole truth. But let's not condemn before the investigation is completed. I'm sure there are many, many more stories out there from patients of BPH who are as satisfied with their treatment, and the cost of it, as I was. I'm also certain that there are as many horror stories of poor treatment, and inflated costs, from patients of virtually every hospital on the planet as have been related here about BPH.

In general, I'd say that, in most, if not all hospitals, the medical staff personnel are genuinely concerned with helping the patient, as their top priority. Likewise, in most, if not all hospitals, the administrative staff is most concerned about budget and liability. That's just life, folks. And it isn't going to change.

Watch out! You may be accused of having vested interests in BPH if you continue make such obviously well reasoned and fundamentally sound observations. Each respondent that has indicated keeping an open mind has been put down rather rudely and accused of having some sinister association with BPH.

By the same token, in lieu of any qualified forum member commenting on the facts as they are now known, all we are getting is a rehash of the same statements and claims of fiscal malpractice. Just because one possibly spends a lot of time being attended to in Outpatient facilities does not make you an expert on running a hospital let alone emergency medical treatment.

There have been 2 statements from BPH, both factual and so far unrepudiated that have been over-analysed, twisted and misinterpreted by several 'laymen' medics and others with an obvious axe to grind on this forum. Those 'friends' that scandalously claimed that the victim was turned away due to lack of ID and/or funds and sent to Cholburi in a pickup have gone curiously silent and all we have left are those who think they have been overcharged or know someone who claims to have been ripped off.

I have been trying to make the simple point that this is not the US or Europe and for people to expect the same quality of medical emergency response, including emergency transportation as you would in your homeland is stupid. It is especially stupid if these people who expect such quality of care have lived here in Pattaya for years.

However, keeping an open mind (and to avoid another accusation of trying to hijack the thread), I hope that those that castigate BPH most vociferously and borderline libelously are prepared to put their money where their keyboard is.

[twix38]

I personally think that the low esteem many have of the BP Hospital due to their high charges has spilled over into people's willingness to crucify them from the get go.

It is unequivical that Money is paramount for the BP and my personal experience for tests was not good as the lung function machine didn't work very well and the cost had additional items and 2 seperate Doctors fees that made the total some 15% to 20% more expensive than the total I had been given as a final figure, before I agreed to the tests and whole procedure. I have never been back and now go to the Memorial Hospital.

So, BP Hospital has many detractors whose views are coloured before a comment is even formulated imho. That may have given the BP Hospital an unfair disadvantage in the instance.

The BP Hospital should however note the depth of feeling about high costs and hidden or undisclosed additions made to bills.

[icecubes]

Top Marks Nan Laew

It is especially stupid if these people who expect such quality of care have lived here in Pattaya for years.

Hope you or your kids never need help in getting to hospital, or care for that matter in thailand

Top man you are.

[Mobi]

Well, I've said my piece, and I'll shut up - for a while anyway

But after 2 years in Pattaya, and having used the place an outpatient on several occasions; my wife having used it several times as an outpatient AND inpatient; my son in law having used it; my elderly friend from England having used it; numerous friends and acquaintances having used it; I know with a blinding certainty, that the ethical standards fall way below what they should be - even for Thailand, and fall way below those of Bumrungrad, Samitivej, BNH and several other worthy hospitals in BKK, which I and others have used over the years.

If you ever have any time on your hands, just spend a few hours at the cashier's office at BP, where the discharged inpatients are settling their bills. I guarantee it will be an education, and I have often felt quite sorry for the poor Thai ladies who have to deal with physically distressed and traumatised patients when they are presented with inflated and outrageous final bills.

[larvidchr]

I have been trying to make the simple point that this is not the US or Europe and for people to expect the same quality of medical emergency response, including emergency transportation as you would in your homeland is stupid. It is especially stupid if these people who expect such quality of care have lived here in Pattaya for years.

However, keeping an open mind (and to avoid another accusation of trying to hijack the thread), I hope that those that castigate BPH most vociferously and borderline libelously are prepared to put their money where their keyboard is.

In a previus post of yours you claim that ambulances are not up to standart, and you seem to have a special interest in the decibel level of the sirens.

Well let me put you straight, i have traveled in an ambulance from BPH in a medical emergency, and their ambulance has everything you would expect from an advanced western ambulance, and not only that, but is staffed with that many people so I was worried if there would be room for me, the patient. There where specialists and a doctor manning the back, and they where in constant radio contact with the hospital, and the sirens seemed loud enough for me, louder sirens wold not help here in Thailand since everybody is reluctant to give way as it seems. but this is a side track, hope you are happy with this since you seemed not to be aware of this brilliant aspect of BPH service, dont forget to mention it in your semingly neverending onesided praise of the BPH.

I can mention that I have had perfectly good treatment in this hospital, but that does not mean that everything therefor is perfect, or that some procedures can not be improved,

what some seem to not grasp is, that asking questions if in doubt, is a healthy thing, and was it not for the reaction of the expats, it is unlikely BPH would have issued a statement at all, i feel pretty confident that this case will improve procedures at BPH in the future. And they certently should resolve the administrative issues that makes it next to impossible to send blod from a government hospital to a private hospital in a emergency, their statement here clearly admits to a flaw in the system regarding this issue.

So NanLaew, what is said between the lines in this statement nr.2 is that if not for administrative problems with transfering blood, they might have opted for that option, then they go on with some gibberish about matching blood, but if they allready knew his bloodtype, that should be no problem at least for the initial lifesaving emergency blood transfusions.

I do realise I am in Thailand NanLaew, but that do not mean things where needed can not improve, people in the Expat club and people here on TV, have tried to do that in this case, however your input have done nothing but try to disrupt that effort, even if you did not agree with some of the posts here on this tread , surely you must have been able to understand the greater goal, that makes it even more incomprehensible why you have insisted on continuing your line of postings.

Your last remark about libel, where you apparently whish for people to get in trouble, says a lot more about you, than the people you pronounce as beeing stupid.

And as the poster before me i think i have said my piece to.

Matt Gerald. RIP

Regards

Edited May 16, 2007 by larvidchr

[theunthinkable]

It was only a matter of time before this happened and my deepest thoughts and sympathies are with the family of the deceased and my apologies if you find this post distasteful but someone has to move the discussion within a thousand kilometers of the realities of health care in Thailand.

I personally know someone who was being forced to move a new born baby from Intensive care, in a private Bangkok hospital to a government hospital, if they could not come up with the 2 week cost in advance and only did not happen immediately because they refused to sign a disclaimer and take their unconscious new born baby across town in a taxi.

Add to the fact that their were no abnormal circumstances before the birth and the baby was most likely in Intensive care in the first place because the cesarean section was not performed quickly enough so that the anesthetic reached the baby is another matter. Thankfully the money was found and the baby lived and is alive and healthy to this day.

The only time cases of death due to "highly unusual/abnormal circumstances" reach the public attention is when the child of someone famous dies in the care of a well-known hospital and they bring it to the mainstream media attention, but then there is not even the realistic possibility of a mal-practice suit even for those with money and status in Thailand and the only way they could negatively impact on a Thai Doctor in any shape of from is with "bad press".

I would love to hear from anyone on this forum who knows of ANY successful mal-practice suits against ANY Doctor in Thailand whilst they was carrying out his duties in a Thai private hospital. Evidence of an even a mock investigation into mal-practice would be a nice start.

Basically for a Thai Doctor to be convicted of a death by mal-practice in Thailand, would require the equivalent level of unambiguity as it would take a Thai policemen to be arrested with a "smoking gun" shooting someone in front of multiple eye witnesses who are all willing to testify. Just think of the likelihood of this happening in an operating theatre!??

And for the record I have been to the hospital in question twice: -

First time after openly discussing in front of me whether I should pay the "Thai price or not" because I had lived there for so long and when they told me the Thai price I just laughed (-the only positive I can take from the place!) and went and got the medicine that solved the condition for 1/50^th of the price (-which would have been 1/100^th of the Farang price) they were quoting and did not require a stay in hospital or an unpleasant surgical procedure.

Second time I left after a farcical episode with the doctor on duty (-specialist was away) going through the list of all the available options and me continually answering "No thank you, as that has no relation to my current illness!" until we agreed that I come back when the specialist was back. I think you can guess if I ever went back or not.

Finally, I should say I have received some very good treatement whilst in Thailand, but not anywhere near BP Hospital.