Thai Children’s IQ Considered Normal

[ThaiGoon]

It's amazing how it's acceptable to point out that the average Zulu is taller than the average Pygmy, but when you touch upon something such as intelligence (Which like height does have a genetic component) then liberals start stamping their feet and accusations of racism quickly follow. We know that IQ tests are culturally specific and prone to inaccuracy but to deny that there are differences between groups is somewhat obtuse. P.S I believe in deference to any liberals who might take offence the word retard could be replaced with intelectually chalenged.

The Japanese historically were short people. Nowadays they change their diets and the new generation is a lot taller than their parents. It's the diet that makes a person tall or short.

[ThaiGoon]

Tuition fees at Triam Udom might be low but getting accepted there is not easy.

A friend of ours paid 150k to get his daughter into one of the Demonstration schools, Grade 1.

I guess High Schools are not any cheaper.

At a number of Demonstration schools, you don't have to pay 150k to have your child get accepted. He/she just has to pass the entrance exam. (That's how I got in mine.) However I agree that if you think your kid won't be able to qualify academcially, then the tea money is needed...just like anywhere else in the world (Bush went to Yale and then Harvard bussiness school. )

[selftaopath]

Nearly all government numbers here are suspicious. But it's equally suspicious what IQ actually means and how well whatever kinds of tests they're using apply to the environments that these children are actually in.

Seeing as how this report is coming from one of the Thai ministries i'd take it with a grain of salt. If it's like any other test they take in Thailand it's pretty likely that the results were doctored to meet expectations.

I have difficulty understanding how a country which is predominately Buddhist can appear untruthful so often. I believe Buddhism suggests not to lie.

Keoki

[Steely Dan]

It's amazing how it's acceptable to point out that the average Zulu is taller than the average Pygmy, but when you touch upon something such as intelligence (Which like height does have a genetic component) then liberals start stamping their feet and accusations of racism quickly follow. We know that IQ tests are culturally specific and prone to inaccuracy but to deny that there are differences between groups is somewhat obtuse. P.S I believe in deference to any liberals who might take offence the word retard could be replaced with intelectually chalenged.

The Japanese historically were short people. Nowadays they change their diets and the new generation is a lot taller than their parents. It's the diet that makes a person tall or short.

Granted the diet has a bearing on size, if you go to a road called the shambles in York you can see how tall the British were on average several centuries ago by examining the doors on the old houses, but I'll venture the Japanese were probably even shorter then. The very fact different races look different shows how environmental factors and genetics have caused differences. An extreme example are the Aborigines of Australia who it is estimated took 20,000 years to adapt to their hostile environment so they could get as far as Alice Springs in the centre. Their skills at gathering bush tucker or finding water are prodigious, but a developed world IQ test was hardly relevent to them until relatively recent history.

[DirkGently]

My point was simply that the seemingly low IQ of Thais and their relative connection to Asians who seem to do well in IQ tests resembles something I read about. That being the Bell Curve.

Like I said, I'm no expert in the field, but one can't help but notice the difference between Chinese inventions which are many and the inventions of people that score less well. For example, the Chinese invented paper, the clock, gun powder, board games and many more and Africans have invented ( and i did google this) guitars made from oil cans.

I just thought it was relavent as members disect the whys and wherefores of Thai IQs.

[rychrde]

A well-designed IQ test - or tests rather - should measure analytical and critical faculties. Those who complai that by doing more IQ tests one gets better at them...well...yes that's obvious isn't it?! and surely the point of that is to show that analytical skills can be improved. If that were not the case we would all be stuck in our one-year-old mind set!?

I haven't seen the Thai test used - i'll search again to see if anybody posted a link, as one person posted some questions from it. But the people creating them do have to be careful of cultural influences, especially language. I recall having to have some practice to American IQ and SAT tests just because the phrasing of questions, and the more subtle linguistic questions, had a heavy dose of cultural influence even for a Brit. General knowledge questions, I personally think should not be in an IQ test. To give a computing analogy IQ tests should really measure how good the brain-script is, not the size of database.

On a personal note, I've tried some brain-teaser puzzles with some kids here. They love them, but they get nothing like it at school, and eed practice going from easy to harder puzzles. Spatial puzzles seem the best as have the least cultural baggage attached to them.

rych

[Plus]

Tuition fees at Triam Udom might be low but getting accepted there is not easy.

A friend of ours paid 150k to get his daughter into one of the Demonstration schools, Grade 1.

I guess High Schools are not any cheaper.

At a number of Demonstration schools, you don't have to pay 150k to have your child get accepted. He/she just has to pass the entrance exam. (That's how I got in mine.) However I agree that if you think your kid won't be able to qualify academcially, then the tea money is needed...just like anywhere else in the world (Bush went to Yale and then Harvard bussiness school. )

The reality is that his daughter got in ahead of someone more academically suitable, and he wasn't alone submitting his donation on that day, the office was crowded.

Another sad aspect to this - it was only the FIRST grade. No school can judge future academic potential of a six year old child after half an hour test. They are either fooling themselves or just use it as an excuse.

Last year I heard that people paid hundreds of thousands of baht to get into one particular kindergarten with a high acceptance into another famous school.

The original point was that good education at good schools is free. For a few lucky ones.

[Prakanong]

"owever I agree that if you think your kid won't be able to qualify academcially, then the tea money is needed...just like anywhere else in the world"

I am sorry its not like anywhere else in the world.

You are supposed to be an educated Thai - a Thai of the new generation yet you think corruption is just an everyday occurrence and accept it as normal - what hope is there??

[Prakanong]

Nearly all government numbers here are suspicious. But it's equally suspicious what IQ actually means and how well whatever kinds of tests they're using apply to the environments that these children are actually in.

Seeing as how this report is coming from one of the Thai ministries i'd take it with a grain of salt. If it's like any other test they take in Thailand it's pretty likely that the results were doctored to meet expectations.

I have difficulty understanding how a country which is predominately Buddhist can appear untruthful so often. I believe Buddhism suggests not to lie.

Keoki

And therein lies the conundrum and the enigma!

[keebone]

I thought IQ by definition should average at 100. Then you compare individuals with the average.

Maybe they compared Thailand to the worldwide average, but is there worldwide valid IQ test? What about language differences? There are lots of question like "Choose the closest meaning" that do not translate very well.

I could be totally wrong but I thought that worldwide IQ levels are based upon what is average in the UK. The average IQ being set in the UK as 100 and then everybody being measured against that whether in the UK or anywhere else. If the average intelligence in the UK rises then what is considered to be an IQ of 100 rises and if it drops then the reverse happens so that the UK average IQ will always be 100 no matter what.

On all the nation by nation average IQ lists I've seen the UK is always set at 100 so maybe it's true.

[highdiver]

I thought IQ by definition should average at 100. Then you compare individuals with the average.

Maybe they compared Thailand to the worldwide average, but is there worldwide valid IQ test? What about language differences? There are lots of question like "Choose the closest meaning" that do not translate very well.

I could be totally wrong but I thought that worldwide IQ levels are based upon what is average in the UK. The average IQ being set in the UK as 100 and then everybody being measured against that whether in the UK or anywhere else. If the average intelligence in the UK rises then what is considered to be an IQ of 100 rises and if it drops then the reverse happens so that the UK average IQ will always be 100 no matter what.

On all the nation by nation average IQ lists I've seen the UK is always set at 100 so maybe it's true.

yes you are right. IQ scores are re-normalized periodically, such that the average score is reset to 100. The revised versions are standardized on new samples and scored with respect to those samples alone, so the only way to compare the difficulty of two versions of a test is to conduct a separate study in which the same subjects take both versions.

this allso explains why you see a growth in IQ scores from year to year.

the new way of mesuring IQ that is becoming more and more acceptable. argues that the old IQ tests are not realy scientific and are relying on a uniform curriculum from school and are in most cases not localy culture sensitive.

the new approach is called Multiple intelligences and it suggests that an array of different kinds of "intelligence" exists in human beings. each individual manifests varying levels of these different intelligences, and thus each person has a unique "cognitive profile."

[keebone]

It's interesting that apart from Bkk which is an anomaly the North of Thailand gets highest IQ levels which get lower the further South you go.

Something I have noticed is that the further South you go in Thailand the more Austronesian the people appear. I have seen people in the South who would not look too out of place among Australian Aborigines or in Papua New Guinea. conversely the further North you go the more East Asiatic the people appear.

Food for thought maybe.

[highdiver]

Nearly all government numbers here are suspicious. But it's equally suspicious what IQ actually means and how well whatever kinds of tests they're using apply to the environments that these children are actually in.

Seeing as how this report is coming from one of the Thai ministries i'd take it with a grain of salt. If it's like any other test they take in Thailand it's pretty likely that the results were doctored to meet expectations.

I have difficulty understanding how a country which is predominately Buddhist can appear untruthful so often. I believe Buddhism suggests not to lie.

Keoki

you are right and so does the ten comandments and the koran and even the holy bible. unfortunatly is must be a human thing not realy conected to religion or race. everybody lies.

[ThaiGoon]

The original point was that good education at good schools is free. For a few lucky ones.

I can assure you that more than 90% of students got into Triam Udom Suksa (and the Demonstration school that I went) through entrance exams. The rest got in through tea money and their parents' connections (at Demonstration schools, kids of university faculty have the priority.)

[wintermute]

The original point was that good education at good schools is free. For a few lucky ones.

I can assure you that more than 90% of students got into Triam Udom Suksa (and the Demonstration school that I went) through entrance exams. The rest got in through tea money and their parents' connections (at Demonstration schools, kids of university faculty have the priority.)

Where's your proof to back up this statement? In a society where corruption is endemic it's very unlikely that "90%" got in purely through entrance exams.

[ThaiGoon]

The original point was that good education at good schools is free. For a few lucky ones.

I can assure you that more than 90% of students got into Triam Udom Suksa (and the Demonstration school that I went) through entrance exams. The rest got in through tea money and their parents' connections (at Demonstration schools, kids of university faculty have the priority.)

Where's your proof to back up this statement? In a society where corruption is endemic it's very unlikely that "90%" got in purely through entrance exams.

I experienced it myself. At Triam Udom, every year out of about 20+ or so classrooms of new students, about three of them are resereved for "Dek Phark" (students who got in through tea money.) We all knew which three classrooms they were. Similar thing happened at the Demonstration school I went.

Edited May 24, 2007 by endure
Edited for insults

[wintermute]

The original point was that good education at good schools is free. For a few lucky ones.

I can assure you that more than 90% of students got into Triam Udom Suksa (and the Demonstration school that I went) through entrance exams. The rest got in through tea money and their parents' connections (at Demonstration schools, kids of university faculty have the priority.)

Where's your proof to back up this statement? In a society where corruption is endemic it's very unlikely that "90%" got in purely through entrance exams.

I experienced it myself. At Triam Udom, every year out of about 20+ or so classrooms of new students, about three of them are resereved for "Dek Phark" (students who got in through tea money.) We all knew which three classrooms they were. Similar thing happened at the Demonstration school I went.

That still doesn't prove that corruption wasn't involved. You have no idea what goes on behind closed doors unless you're claiming that you know the particular situation of every rich family in Thailand and know the inner workings of their financial transactions. If that's the case then you should become the new prime minister of Thailand.

Edited May 24, 2007 by wintermute

[ThaiGoon]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Business/25May2007_biz46.php

NSTDA says patents a key to innovation

Local R&D spending remains very low

ARANEE JAIIMSIN

The National Science and Technology Development Agency (NSTDA) expects to register 70 patents this year, up from 50 last year, to spur science and technology development for business and industry. The agency also aims to increase the number of patents by 50% to 110 in 2008, according to NSTDA president Sakarindr Bhumiratana.

Mr Sakarindr said that Thailand needed advanced technology development to remain competitive and to gain access to international patents.

The NSTDA and its partners produce a variety of medical and energy technologies. They include a new testing technology for the avian flu virus; a high-efficiency, low-cost solar energy generator; a material that can be used to build fuel cells for pollution-free motors; and a special nanotechnology substance for facial treatments.

''All of the technologies I mentioned are in the process of filing for new patents and we expect all of them would be produced commercially in the future,'' said Mr Sakarindr.

Investment in R&D as a percentage of national gross domestic product (GDP) in Thailand is only 0.28%, compared with Malaysia's 0.63% and around 3% in developed nations such as Japan.

Newly industrialising economies such as Singapore, Taiwan and Korea invest about eight times more in R&D relative to GDP than Thailand.

The NSTDA launched a three-year programme called Fast-Forward to emphasise its urgent mission to accelerate the pace of innovation in Thailand.

The agency has called for the government to issue the Science and Technology Act to help increase the national budget for R&D activities to 3% of the national budget each year.

If the government passes the Act, R&D budgets would increase by 2.5- to threefold from the current proportion, said Mr Sakarindr.

The NSTDA hopes R&D investment will increase to 0.32% of GDP next year, 0.35% in 2009, 0.7% in 2010 and 1% in 2011, said Mr Sakarindr.

Edited May 24, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[Ijustwannateach]

And FYI, there's no farang teachers at schools like Triam Udom Suksa.

Actually, FYI, you'd be wrong about that.

[ThaiGoon]

And FYI, there's no farang teachers at schools like Triam Udom Suksa.

Actually, FYI, you'd be wrong about that.

(FYI,) I need proof. There was no farang teachers at Triam Udom and the Demonstration school when I was there.

[Ijustwannateach]

My point was simply that the seemingly low IQ of Thais and their relative connection to Asians who seem to do well in IQ tests resembles something I read about. That being the Bell Curve.

Like I said, I'm no expert in the field, but one can't help but notice the difference between Chinese inventions which are many and the inventions of people that score less well. For example, the Chinese invented paper, the clock, gun powder, board games and many more and Africans have invented ( and i did google this) guitars made from oil cans.

I just thought it was relavent as members disect the whys and wherefores of Thai IQs.

The Bell Curve has been thoroughly and widely discredited; I recommend the late great Stephen Jay Gould's dismemberment of it in particular, The Mismeasure of Man. What is also interesting about his refutation is that he gives a history of how this particularly disingenuous and racist argument repeats itself every generation or so and has to be shouted down yet again; part of the core misunderstanding of most of those who re-propose this theory is their misconception that IQ does in fact actually "measure" anything, when no proof of this has ever been ascertained, much less to prove that if it did in fact measure an entity that that thing would be identical with "intelligence." It also addresses the multiple problems with equating the scores of one group at a serious economic/social/cultural disadvantage to another. But that's just the nutshell version- it's a wonderful book, check it out.

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

And FYI, there's no farang teachers at schools like Triam Udom Suksa.

Actually, FYI, you'd be wrong about that.

(FYI,) I need proof. There was no farang teachers at Triam Udom and the Demonstration school when I was there.

I've met 'em, and I have no particular motivation to prove anything to you. Go call up your school if you care that much.

[ThaiGoon]

I've met 'em, and I have no particular motivation to prove anything to you. Go call up your school if you care that much.

When I went back to visit the schools, I still saw none. That was a few years ago.

[ThaiGoon]

Also, the teachers from Triam (Thai) are mostly doing really well financially with their own successful tutoring centers.

[Ijustwannateach]

Like I said, call 'em up. (Is this really that important a part of your argument?)

Incidentally, it's hardly proof of anything that every nation will have several star students. It would be surprising if they didn't. This discussion is about the *trend* in Thai students' testing, not the peak. It would make no more sense to argue that having a Nobel Prize winner meant that a country's education had no problems. And boy, does this country have problems in education.

Whether IQ is connected with that, I don't know. I'm suspicious of IQ testing in general- and I find the government's reports unreliable; in a sense, the previous report cancels out this report and I would conclude that we have no actual information at all, except that we are clearly not being given accurate information.

From what I've heard from colleagues working at the Demo schools, there are ways those programs charge extra money to finance the foreign teachers and other, um, activities. Often the smarter students in the regular programs are much more intelligent than the weaker ones in the demo schools- not to say that no smart students get in, but they usually have to have money, too.

"S"

[Ijustwannateach]

Also, the teachers from Triam (Thai) are mostly doing really well financially with their own successful tutoring centers.

Yes, I've heard of those, too... aren't those, um, technically illegal? I know that some time back the government made a rule that public school teachers weren't supposed to do extra tutoring because it had led in some cases to their requiring the students to join the tutoring just so they could pass the regular class... but in any case, this is *not* actually an argument in favour of the success of the regular schools, is it (i.e., if the regular schools were enough, what need for the tutoring centers?).

"Steven"

[ThaiGoon]

Like I said, call 'em up. (Is this really that important a part of your argument?)

No it's not. In fact, I already moved on, but you brought it back up.

As for the point of this topic, it's pretty obvious I don't believe that Thai students in general are as dumb as some farangs on here want others to believe. I posted the story of the three kids because I wanted to show some Thai kids do achieve things that many farangs would never believe, if they never saw that story with their own eyes. It's the same way they would never believe that Thais are not as dumb as they think we are.

I mentioned the sucessful Thai teachers to point out that, again, there are still quality Thai teachers and not all the good things done in Thai education are due to the work of farang teachers. (And I don't know the legality of the tutoring thing as I remember that those centers only operate after the regular school sessions are over.)

Edited May 24, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[Ijustwannateach]

I think there's a need to distinguish between intelligence and ability. It doesn't matter how intelligent a person is: he'll still drown if he can't swim. I don't believe strongly in IQ tests as a test of either intelligence (whatever that means) or academic abilities, so as far as I'm concerned it doesn't really matter how Thai students (or any other students) test on them.

If the previous report was correct and Thai students scored "low" on the IQ tests, there are several dozen possible reasons for that: they could have been chosen incorrectly, tested incorrectly, the tests could've been translated improperly, scored improperly, administered improperly, or interpreted improperly in a whole slew of ways; there could have been cultural, economic, or linguistic problems with the test which weren't foreseen by the testwriters, the possibilities go on and on. Having Thai students score poorly on IQ tests really doesn't impress me as important.

Personally, I think Thai students are ideally adapted to their environments: they learn to show respect to dangerous superiors, obey, keep their heads down, and look for patrons. If they were tested on a scale of social intelligence, no doubt all of us foreigners would be dummies compared to them. However, the times are changing and Thais are being expected to perform well on international tests of academic ability (we're talking SATs and IGCSEs and IBs here, not IQs) without having been exposed for long to the sorts of pressures which produce good scores on those kinds of tests. That's where the education system should really be worried about adapting and being left behind. If the general education is done properly (oh, and if a few minor things like nutrition and a stable family life are taken care of) then the IQs should take care of themselves.

There are movements in these directions- the demonstration schools are a good example- but so far they are a drop in the bucket, and clear vision plus a lot of well-spent money is needed. I daresay that as most of the more important international academic tests are based in other countries, that Thailand will need a number of foreign consultants and teachers to help itself along that path, if they choose to go that way- if not as teachers of students, then as teachers of the new generation of Thai teachers that will be responsible.

"Steven"

[ThaiGoon]

EDIT: Didn't see your last post before I posted this one. Anyway, I generally agree that something needs to be done about the Thai education and the central gov't needs to do a lot more.

Edited May 24, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, I think we're finally going someplace, then. What I'd be interested in hearing- because, for me, the MOE is still like a big scary black box that my paperwork has to go through on the way to being a legal teacher, and I have very little clue about what happens at that level- is why there seems to be so little in the way of vision and policymaking coming out of there. One guess of mine is that they had something like 5 ministers in 2 years not long ago, which obviously doesn't help. But is the MOE normally such a basketcase, or was it just in this recent administration?

Furthermore, I can name one policy whose elimination would eventually go a long way towards solving many problems, though it would cause a lot of grief to those in the system right now:

NO FAIL POLICY!!!!

(for those who don't know what this means: in most schools up to high school level, students *must* pass (by law). Technically speaking, they can be failed but the law says that if they are failed the teacher is then responsible for reteaching and reteaching and retesting and retesting them infinitely AND INDIVIDUALLY (i.e., outside normal hours assigned) until they pass. Some students are, um, incorrigible- so teachers have realised that failing students simply punishes themselves. Therefore, we have a de facto no-fail system).

I've met many intelligent older Thais who tell me that this is a relatively new thing. In their generation, Thais were allowed to fail at school.

You can argue that the pass/fail system itself is flawed- I know this already. But for it to work at all, you have to have FAIL as well as PASS. As far as I'm concerned, no one passes in a PASS/FAIL system that no one fails.

Nothing does more at the moment to take away from the credibility of the Thai school system, and also to take away from its functionality. Once the kids realise the emperor has no clothes, you get an instant moral hazard in the classroom and a major loss of motivation except among the brightest, luckiest, and best-reared children.

Almost every teacher that I know opposes this policy (Thai as well as foreign). Could Thais ask for this to be changed? Would they?

"Steven"