Dual Citizenship Possible?

[Ketsara]

Dear all,

I would like to invite you to share your experiences on a dual citizenship issue.

My Thai wife to be (Marrying in September) would like to apply for Dutch citizenship after our wedding day. Based on dutch regulation, she would be entitled to dual citizenship, based on marriage. However, there seems to be a hick up on the Thai side.

We are informed by the immigration office that she will lose her Thai nationality anyway (married or not) and should renounce her nationality at the embassy. After being published in the thai Government Gazette (does this exist anyway?), she should provide the Dutch immigration with a copy.

As my girlfriend does not want to go through the hassle of applying for visa for family visits, and wants to keep her (future) land and house in Thailand, losing her Thai nationality is not very attractive.

From those with Thai partners I would like to ask:

-did you indeed renounce the Thai nationality?

-If so, have you ever received any prof that this really happened?

-Is there any specific law in Thailand stating that dual citizenship is not allowed? Any help in specifying laws that may be helpful would be appreciated.

Thank you all for you applies, I really appreciate!

Edited May 26, 2007 by Maestro
Font formatting codes used for entire post removed for better readability.

[samran]

you have been inproperly advised by whomever you spoke to. Where did you speak to this 'immigration' officer?

Unless your wife wishes to renounce her Thai citizenship, she will remain a Thai citizen after marriage. The Thai government doesn't strip you of your citizenship anymore and this has certainly been the case since 1992.

A good place to look is the Royal Thai Emabassy Website in Washington DC here. Go to the 'consular informations' tab and then click on 'most asked questions of Thai nationailty, where you will find the passage below.

Q: Whether a person of Thai nationality who has married an alien and acquire nationality of his/her husband /wife lose his/her Thai nationality ?

A: The person is still a Thai nationality unless:- - He/She desires to renounce Thai nationality by declaring his/her intention to the competent authority. -His/Her Thai nationality is revoked by the Government of the Kingdom of Thailand

The Thai passport will remain valid, and if you live in the EU, as long as your wife keeps her Thai ID and House Registry on her, she'll be able to renew her Thai passport at the closest Thai embassy any time while overseas rather than having to return to Thailand.

Remember, when she has both passports:

Enter and leave Thailand on the Thai PP!

Enter and Exit the EU on the EU passport!

[lopburi3]

You were misinformed. Thai do not lose there citizenship unless they chose to do so. There is no law against dual nationality in Thailand (although some act as if there were). But the talk of informing Dutch authorities makes it sound as if there is a Dutch requirement to renounce former citizenship.

Please use default font for posting to help our eyes. Thanks.

[brianinbangkok]

The Dutch may require her to renounce her Thai nationality or will not approve her application.

You should inform the Dutch that she would lose rights in Thailand to own property if she renounces her Thai nationality , in certain cases they may allow her to keep her Thai nationality.

In certain cases one does not need to renounce ones nationality depending on several factors , most of my brothers have dual citizenships UK and Dutch , but this was an exception to the rules at the time 10 years ago.

Go to a good dutch immigration lawyer because I have found the Dutch immigration officers try and refuse it if you say on the application that you do not intend to renounce your Thai nationality , once they refused the application your going to be looking at appeals that take forever !

They have made it a lot harder now to get a Dutch passport sinds they changed the regulations in 2002 , I doubt your wife can apply "just after you get married" , she will have to wait 3 years and pass several "inburgering" tests > learn to speak and read/write Dutch and learn about Dutch culture and history before she can become Dutch.

My advise is say she wil give up her Thai passport , and then just keep it anyway... make sure you do not need to prove she did it

Edited May 26, 2007 by brianinbangkok

[Ketsara]

Dear all,

Thank you very much for your replies. (hopefully this is in the right format... I am learning...)

Just to give some further information, as seems to be helpful from your replies.

My partner has been in the Netherlands for almost 5 years now, finished all needed integration programs and therefore seems to meet all requirements for the application of the Dutch nationality.

Indeed dutch law is becoming more strict over time, and in future dual citizenship may be further restricted. One of the exceptions in dutch law is that being married to a dutch citizen leads to dispensation from the requirement of renouncing the original nationality.

Following this, there would not be any problem. But, there also is this country list stating that even though you may be extempt, Thai nationality is lost anyway. This thus seems to be a Thai thing (not initiated by dutch government).

Reading from your replies we are facing another struggle with the not-that-well-informed immigration office…

Any further replies and information on how to proceed is very welcome,

Thank you,

Ket

[Mahout Angrit]

Maybe this letter to the Phuket Gazette will interest you. The question is not relative but the answer from the Immigration police captain is.

[samran]

This thus seems to be a Thai thing (not initiated by dutch government).

Reading from your replies we are facing another struggle with the not-that-well-informed immigration office…

Any further replies and information on how to proceed is very welcome,

Just to re-iterate, unless the Dutch government requires your wife to renounce her Thai nationality in order to naturalise as a Dutch national, then there should be no need to for her to lose her Thai citizenship.

Thailand will NOT make her renounce her Thai citizenship.

Thailand will NOT strip her of her Thai citizenship.

She will continue to be regarded by the Thai government as a Thai national so long as she doesn't formally renounce Thai nationality.

It would be interesting if you could tell us who the immigration officer you spoke to is? What is a Thai embassy offical in the Netherlands?

[brianinbangkok]

Who is actually saying she needs to renounce her Thai nationality , from what you say Ketsara the Dutch do not require it in your case.

And if Samran is correct (and I have no doubt about that) there is no problem at all except some idiot official who does not know the law.

Just as an example : Dutch tax office required me to pay tax in Holland on my income in Thailand , they had never heard about a tax treaty with Thailand untill I faxed them a copy of it and emailed a weblink.

So much for them knowing the law !

After a short chat with someone higher up my problem was solved

so I suggest you find the relative information showing Thai law does not require her to denounce her Thai nationality and show this info to the not-that-well-informed immigration office.

That should solve your problem.

Edited May 26, 2007 by brianinbangkok

[Maestro]

...letter to the

Quote from that letter:

Just use the Thai passport when you enter Thailand and the Dutch passport when you enter the Netherlands, and show both passports to Immigration at either end.”

The standard procedure, also used by my wife, is as follows:

Departure from Switzerland:

-- Airline check-in: show both passports. Thai passport is evidence that no visa for Thailand is needed.

-- Immigration: show Swiss passport only.

Arrival in Thailand:

-- Immigration: show Thai passport only.

Departure from Thailand:

-- Airline check-in: show both passports. Swiss passport is evidence that no visa for Switzerland is needed.

-- Immigration: show Thai passport only.

Arrival in Switzerland:

-- Immigration: show Swiss passport only.

Never, in many dozens of trips, has she ever been asked by Immigration in either country to show also the other passport.

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Maestro

[Maestro]

...there also is this country list stating that even though you may be extempt, Thai nationality is lost anyway. This thus seems to be a Thai thing (not initiated by dutch government).

Reading from your replies we are facing another struggle with the not-that-well-informed immigration office…

There is this pinned topic in this forum with a link to an English translation of Thailand’s Nationality Act. The text from the website of the Thai embassy/consulate in Washington DC, quoted by Samran, is based on Section 13:

Section 13. A woman of Thai nationality who marries an alien and may acquire the nationality of her husband according to the nationality law of her husband, shall, if she desires to renounce Thai nationality, make a declaration of her intention before the competent official according to the form and in the manner prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

As I see it, there is no further need for you to discuss this matter with Dutch Immigration. They have no authority to strip your wife of her Thai nationality and they obviously have not the slightest idea about the conditions that under Thai law would cause a Thai citizen to lose Thai nationality.

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Maestro

Edited May 26, 2007 by Maestro

[borracho]

Dutch Law

[Ketsara]

Dear all,

Thank you for your helpful replies, which made it very clear that from the Thai side we should not have any problems. We will start the procedure after the wedding day and make sure that these officers at the dutch immigration office (IND) do not mess with her Thai nationality. The text of the nationality act will come very handy!

Thanks again and wishing you all a very nice day!

Ketsara

[Maestro]

Dutch Law

From that link I see that Dutch law can strip a dual national of his/her Dutch nationality under certain conditions:

After 1 April 2003, Dutch citizens with dual nationality may lose their Dutch nationality if they reside outside the Kingdom of the Netherlands or outside the European Union for a long period. Their place of birth is irrelevant in this event.

If you hold the same foreign nationality alongside Dutch nationality for ten years, and you are resident outside the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the European Union for ten years, you will lose your Dutch nationality.

In this case, a Dutch/Thai dual national living outside the EU for ten years or longer would be well advised not to advertise her non-Dutch nationality to the Dutch authorities, ie in all contacts with Dutch immigration and other Dutch authorities she should show only her Dutch identification papers.

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Maestro