Feel like an untouchable

[richard_smith237]

12 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Either way she's poorly informed, as we now know that Covid is not transmitted via surface contact.

 

Washing hands and using sanitising gel will do nothing to stop anyone getting Covid, we now know.

 

It is you who is poorly informed..... 

 

Covid is and can be transmitted by contact.

 

Someone with Covid-19 coughs into their hand, handles money, the girl takes the money, rubs her eyes. 

 

Regular washing and sanitising of our hands is good practice even before a global pandemic. 

 

The lack of education people have on this matter continues to astonish, those who know the least, seem assume the most.

[Tanomazu]

Shock news item reveals Covid spread by aerosols, not surface transmission, so hand santising and hand washing is useless against the virus:

 

“It’s become clear that transmission by inhalation of aerosols — the microscopic droplets — is an important if not dominant mode of transmission,” says Marr, who studies airborne disease transmission. Excessive attention on making surfaces pristine takes up limited time and resources that would be better spent on ventilation or the decontamination of the air that people breathe, she says.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4

[Tanomazu]

4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

It is you who is poorly informed..... 

 

Covid is and can be transmitted by contact.

 

Someone with Covid-19 coughs into their hand, handles money, the girl takes the money, rubs her eyes. 

 

Regular washing and sanitising of our hands is good practice even before a global pandemic. 

 

The lack of education people have on this matter continues to astonish, those who know the least, seem assume the most.

Absolute nonsense. Maybe you should catch up with the science, Richard Smith:

 

"Evidence for lack of transmission by close contact and surface touch in a restaurant outbreak of COVID-19"

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8164346/

 

It was initially thought that surfaces can transmit the virus, but that has now been shown not to be the case. We know know it is aersols, airborne droplets of the virus, that transmit the virus, not surface contact.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Tanomazu

[johnnybangkok]

You're projecting (unconsciously/consciously taking unwanted emotions or traits you don't like and attributing them to someone else).

You feel that Thai people have got it in for us foreigners so you find things that back this emotion up. As has been pointed out to you by several posters, the person in question could simply be doing this for everyone (Thai and foreigner alike), but you see this simple act of neccessary protection as only be aimed at foreigners.

You need to be less sensitive.  

[richard_smith237]

20 minutes ago, mauroest said:

she doesn't know disposable gloves

Which do you think its better.... 

 

Wearing disposable gloves all shift, or washing your hands regularly and using hand sanitiser?

 

Its not a trick question.... 

[Tanomazu]

4 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

You're projecting (unconsciously/consciously taking unwanted emotions or traits you don't like and attributing them to someone else).

You feel that Thai people have got it in for us foreigners so you find things that back this emotion up. As has been pointed out to you by several posters, the person in question could simply be doing this for everyone (Thai and foreigner alike), but you see this simple act of neccessary protection as only be aimed at foreigners.

You need to be less sensitive.  

It's not "necessary" protection. It's pointless nonsense. The virus is spread by aerosols, airborne droplets of the virus, not by surface contact.

 

New studies show that surface contact is not an area of concern in terms of virus transmission.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8164346/

Edited August 25, 2021 by Tanomazu

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, Andrew555 said:

After I had paid and taken my bag, the cashier reaches out and presses a big slosh of gel in her palm and proceeds to thoroughly apply it over both hands. She's probably thinking oh, farang have covid.

Could it be the way you were looking at her, you tink to muk

[EricTh]

It's the same reaction as when you know someone's infected. 

 

It's all fear propaganda played by the media when only a small percentage dies.

 

The truth is that young people have a high chance of recovering from Covid. Those 1% who died are usually those over 60 years old and/or with serious chronic illness.

 

Even after full vaccination, we can still be infected but with milder symptoms.

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by EricTh

[Dart12]

my girlfriend will use sanitzer in. an entrance to mall and then use again immediately at entrance of a store, having touched nothing in between.  Programming at it's finest.

But if that bothers you, double or triple tap the alcohol in front of the cashier,  after she gives you money back,

[richard_smith237]

20 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Absolute nonsense. Maybe you should catch up with the science, Richard Smith:

 

"Evidence for lack of transmission by close contact and surface touch in a restaurant outbreak of COVID-19"

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8164346/

 

It was initially thought that surfaces can transmit the virus, but that has now been shown not to be the case. We know know it is aersols, airborne droplets of the virus, that transmit the virus, not surface contact.

 

Do you really believe it is impossible to transmit SARS-CoV-2 from person to person by means other than breathing in aerosol which contains the virus ??? 

 

The primary means to transmission of SARS-CoV-2 is via exposure to respiratory droplets carrying infectious virus. It is also possible for people to become infected through contact with contaminated surfaces.

 

There have been a number of studies which outline that fomite transmission is much lower than via aerosol, none suggest that it doesn’t not happen. 

 

Using hand sanitiser is a common sense approach along with wearing of a mask. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by richard_smith237

[Bohemianfish]

Interesting. I took takeout Chinese here in the Seattle area and you have to order food on phone and wait outside. Then they slide the food out through a compartment after you feed your money in. Taking no chances.

 

It was fine and the food was "fair."
 

[Tanomazu]

14 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Do you really believe it is impossible to transmit SARS-CoV-2 from person to person by means other than breathing in aerosol which contains the virus ??? 

 

The primary means to transmission of SARS-CoV-2 is via exposure to respiratory droplets carrying infectious virus. It is also possible for people to become infected through contact with contaminated surfaces.

 

There have been a number of studies which outline that fomite transmission is much lower than via aerosol, none suggest that it doesn’t not happen. 

 

Using hand sanitiser is a common sense approach along with wearing of a mask. 

 

 

 

 

 

Everything is <deleted> possible theoretically, Richard, but we have to look at the science. And when we do that, we do not have to "believe" because we know. Since you have not read the science, let me quote it for you:

 

"Results: There is no significant correlation between the infection risk via both fomite (surface touch) and close contact routes among those who were not family members of the index case. We can thus rule out virus transmission via fomite contact and interpersonal close contact routes in the Guangzhou restaurant outbreak. The absence of a fomite route agrees with the COVID-19 literature."

 

"After considering both fomite and close contact routes under 8 different combinations of index patients, we found no significant correlation between estimated relative infection risk and the reported infection data. Therefore, the COVID-19 outbreak in the restaurant was not transmitted via fomite, and/or close contact routes."

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8164346/

 

So when scientists looked at an ACTUAL case of ACTUAL outbreak and transmission and examined how the virus ACTUALLY spread, guess what, surface contact was ruled out.

 

Thus I don't have to dwell in theoretical scenarios and I don't have to "believe". I know that surface contact is irrelevant in terms of Covid transmission. This has been confirmed by CDC guidance and numerous other scientists.

 

The notion that the virus is spread by surface contact is an old belief, that is not borne out by current scientific data. Do catch up.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Tanomazu

[4MyEgo]

42 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

I know that he does, he's a member here, I've read some of his posts!

Your barking up the wrong tree.

[stevenl]

38 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Shock news item reveals Covid spread by aerosols, not surface transmission, so hand santising and hand washing is useless against the virus:

 

“It’s become clear that transmission by inhalation of aerosols — the microscopic droplets — is an important if not dominant mode of transmission,” says Marr, who studies airborne disease transmission. Excessive attention on making surfaces pristine takes up limited time and resources that would be better spent on ventilation or the decontamination of the air that people breathe, she says.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4

You do realise that when "is an important if not dominant mode of transmission" is said, other modes of transmission are very much present?

[2 is 1]

Maybe you forget had job what she doing to you! Alzheimer is a biatch.

[Tanomazu]

5 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You do realise that when "is an important if not dominant mode of transmission" is said, other modes of transmission are very much present?

You do realise that scientists have examined an actual outbreak of Covid19 caught on camera and have found that

 

"After considering both fomite and close contact routes under 8 different combinations of index patients, we found no significant correlation between estimated relative infection risk and the reported infection data. Therefore, the COVID-19 outbreak in the restaurant was not transmitted via fomite, and/or close contact routes."

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8164346/

 

The CDC has further clarified that surface touch transmission is now no longer an area of concern, in light of all these studies which all say the same thing.

 

Numerous other scientists have confirmed this.

 

I suppose the notion that the coronavirus is transmitted via touch resulted from the misconception that the coronavirus is like the norovirus, which is in fact transmitted by touch. However, the SARS Cov2 virus is not, despite the mistaken initial assumptions early in the pandemic that it was.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Tanomazu

[RJRS1301]

59 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Either way she's poorly informed, as we now know that Covid is not transmitted via surface contact.

 

Washing hands and using sanitising gel will do nothing to stop anyone getting Covid, we now know.

However for many years other contact transmissible conditions have occurred due to poor hand hygiene, so an upside now is that people are little more conscious of hand hygiene, and that in and of itself, is not a bad thing.

 

[richard_smith237]

7 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Everything is <deleted> possible theoretically, Richard, but we have to look at the science. And when we do that, we do not have to "believe" because we know. Since you have not read the science, let me quote it for you:

 

"Results: There is no significant correlation between the infection risk via both fomite (surface touch) and close contact routes among those who were not family members of the index case. We can thus rule out virus transmission via fomite contact and interpersonal close contact routes in the Guangzhou restaurant outbreak. The absence of a fomite route agrees with the COVID-19 literature."

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8164346/

 

So when scientists looked at an ACTUAL case of ACTUAL outbreak and transmission and examined how the virus ACTUALLY spread, guess what, surface contact was ruled out.

 

Thus I don't have to dwell in theoretical scenarios and I don't have to "believe". I know that surface contact is irrelevant in terms of Covid transmission. This has been confirmed by CDC guidance and numerous other scientists.

 

The notion that the virus is spread by surface contact is an old belief, that is not borne out by current scientific data. Do catch up.

 

The paper you present is of one detailed study in China which identified that Fomite transmission in that specific restaurant was improbable based on the contact between customers.

 

It would be extremely clumsy to assume that fomite transmission is not possible at all as this is not true. Selectively highlighting studies and papers which confirm your opinion simply confirms your bias. 

 

 

There are other studies and papers which contradict your opinion and can be found at the same base source you have quoted (the articles are a month apart).

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK570437/

 

Quote

Because of the many factors affecting the efficiency of environmental transmission, the relative risk of fomite transmission of SARS-CoV-2 is considered low compared with direct contact, droplet transmission, or airborne transmission ^[1, 2]. However, it is not clear what proportion of SARS-CoV-2 infections are acquired through surface transmission. There have been few reports of COVID-19 cases potentially attributed to fomite transmission [1, 2]. Infections can often be attributed to multiple transmission pathways. Fomite transmission is difficult to prove definitively, in part because respiratory transmission from asymptomatic people cannot be ruled out [3, 4, 5]. Case reports indicate that SARS-CoV-2 is transmitted between people by touching surfaces an ill person has recently coughed or sneezed on, and then directly touching the mouth, nose, or eyes ^[3, 4, 5]. Hand hygiene is a barrier to fomite transmission and has been associated with lower risk of infection ^[6].

 

[Tanomazu]

2 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

However for many years other contact transmissible conditions have occurred due to poor hand hygiene, so an upside now is that people are little more conscious of hand hygiene, and that in and of itself, is not a bad thing.

 

Certainly, if there is an outbreak of the Norovirus, which is transmitted by surface touch, unlike SARS Cov2, then yes, it would make sense to step up hand hygiene.

 

However, in terms of SARS COV2, you'd have to touch 10,000 infected door knobs before you could conceivably be infected, that's how low the risk is.

 

I am just speculating, but I suspect, the 711 lady was thinking of SARS Cov2, not Norovirus. Thus her actions were pointless in terms of her concern.

[Boomer6969]

2 hours ago, Andrew555 said:

the cashier reaches out and presses a big slosh of gel in her palm and proceeds to thoroughly apply it over both hands. She's probably thinking oh, farang

.. wants a handjob...

[RJRS1301]

Science Brief: SARS-CoV-2 and Surface (Fomite) Transmission for Indoor Community Environments

Updated Apr. 5, 2021

Languages

Print

The principal mode by which people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19) is through exposure to respiratory droplets carrying infectious virus. It is possible for people to be infected through contact with contaminated surfaces or objects (fomites), but the risk is generally considered to be low.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-and-research/surface-transmission.html

 

[Nojohndoe]

2 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Everything is <deleted> possible theoretically, Richard, but we have to look at the science. And when we do that, we do not have to "believe" because we know. Since you have not read the science, let me quote it for you:

 

"Results: There is no significant correlation between the infection risk via both fomite (surface touch) and close contact routes among those who were not family members of the index case. We can thus rule out virus transmission via fomite contact and interpersonal close contact routes in the Guangzhou restaurant outbreak. The absence of a fomite route agrees with the COVID-19 literature."

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8164346/

 

So when scientists looked at an ACTUAL case of ACTUAL outbreak and transmission and examined how the virus ACTUALLY spread, guess what, surface contact was ruled out.

 

Thus I don't have to dwell in theoretical scenarios and I don't have to "believe". I know that surface contact is irrelevant in terms of Covid transmission. This has been confirmed by CDC guidance and numerous other scientists.

 

The notion that the virus is spread by surface contact is an old belief, that is not borne out by current scientific data. Do catch up.

Either way well used banknotes are notoriously "dirty"  with a huge variety of pathogens known to be on them. Even in the case of covid if a person who is symptomatic coughs or sneezes and as a consequence has the virus on their hands and then handles money if a recipient then inadvertently touches their nose while "adjusting" their mask can it be said there is no risk?

Poor hand hygiene is a major source of community sickness regardless and in time it will probably become evident that even if it is irrelevant to the spread of covid in any major way the compliance to better practices overall will demonstrate a reduction in many ailments.

[Tanomazu]

3 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

The paper you present is of one detailed study in China which identified that Fomite transmission in that specific restaurant was improbable based on the contact between customers.

 

It would be extremely clumsy to assume that fomite transmission is not possible at all as this is not true. Selectively highlighting studies and papers which confirm your opinion simply confirms your bias. 

 

 

There are other studies and papers which contradict your opinion and can be found at the same base source you have quoted (the articles are a month apart).

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK570437/

 

 

The beauty of the study I quoted is that it relates to an actual known Covid outbreak that was filmed. The restaurant had cameras and scientists analysed who touched what, how many times, at what table etc. They found that every single person that was infected was infected by airborne droplet transmission, not by surface touch. That is in fact very clear evidence that SARS Cov2 is spread via airborne droplets and not via surface touch.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8164346/

 

Quote

"However, it is not clear what proportion of SARS-CoV-2 infections are acquired through surface transmission. "

Just because someone says they do not know how many SARS Cov2 infections resulted due to surface touch does not mean it is a significant risk, quite the opposite, it merely shows they admit they do not have data in this regard.

 

However, we do have data, filmed, analysed and verified scientific data that in an actual Covid19 outbreak surface touch played no role whatsoever.

 

"We can thus rule out virus transmission via fomite contact and interpersonal close contact routes in the Guangzhou restaurant outbreak."

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8164346/

 

Your effort btw to try and portray this as "Ah there's a study here and a study there", is just wrong.  The studies all agree that it is airborne transmission that is the transmission route of SARS Cov2. The clue is in the name "Acute Respiratory Syndrome".

 

The CDC has actually issued guidance where it admits it was wrong, and surface touch is no longer a concern.

 

The odds of catching SARS Cov2 via surface touch are so tiny that one can literally discount them.

 

It’s so low that even if you were unlucky enough to touch a doorknob immediately after someone with COVID, you might have to touch an average of 10,000 doorknobs to get infected!

 

 

 

[RJRS1301]

Merely submitted the paper for information, I am not rating one study above any other, literature review . Make what you desire from it.

 

[Tanomazu]

16 minutes ago, RJRS1301 said:

 It is possible for people to be infected through contact with contaminated surfaces or objects (fomites), but the risk is generally considered to be low.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-and-research/surface-transmission.html

 

However, the CDC also says:

 

"the odds of getting infected via a contaminated surface or object is "generally less than 1 in 10,000."

 

https://www.advisory.com/en/daily-briefing/2021/04/07/surface-transmission

 

So even if you were unlucky enough to touch a door knob that was just sneezed on by an infected person you would have to do so 10,000 times in order to stand a chance of being infected. Thus, the risk of being infected via surface touch is so low that one can discount it.

 

Again, the notion that SARS Cov2 is transmitted via touch is an error based on old science. It most likely stems from the misconception that SARS Cov2 is like the Norovirus, which is transmitted by surface touch. SARS Cov2 however is transmitted by airborne droplets.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Tanomazu

[RJRS1301]

5 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

However, the CDC also says:

 

"the odds of getting infected via a contaminated surface or object is "generally less than 1 in 10,000."

 

https://www.advisory.com/en/daily-briefing/2021/04/07/surface-transmission

 

So even if you were unlucky enough to touch a door knob that was just sneezed on by an infected person you would have to do so 10,000 times in order to stand a chance of being infected. Thus, the risk of being infected via surface touch is so low that one can discount it.

 

Again, the notion that SARS Cov2 is transmitted via touch is an error based on old science. It most likely stems from the misconception that SARS Cov2 is like the Norovirus, which is transmitted by surface touch. SARS Cov2 however is transmitted by airborne droplets.

None are disputing the LOW risk I do not think, most of us can read and comprehend, thank you .

Even extremely Low risk does not mean no risk.

 

 

[Nojohndoe]

2 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

If the risk of getting an infection is as low as 1:10,000, as the CDC has advised, then that means you would have to touch an infected door knob 10,000 times before you stand a chance of getting the virus.

 

In other words, the risk is so low that it can be discounted. Just to put it into perspective, if the risk of infection from Covid19 via surface touch is 1:10,000 this compares as per attached image to other risks.

 

In other words, your risk of dying by choking on food is 400% greater than the risk you may get Covid19 by touching a surface infected with the virus. Your chance of dying of sunstroke is bigger. Your chance of dying by suicide is almost ten times greater.

 

Since we discount death by choking on food on a daily basis, which is 400% more likely than catching Covid19 by touching surfaces that are infected, the latter can be discounted as well.

 

 

 

Oh ok.  So I can confidently go licking doorknobs. Cheers

[thaibeachlovers]

46 minutes ago, Tanomazu said:

Certainly, if there is an outbreak of the Norovirus, which is transmitted by surface touch, unlike SARS Cov2, then yes, it would make sense to step up hand hygiene.

 

However, in terms of SARS COV2, you'd have to touch 10,000 infected door knobs before you could conceivably be infected, that's how low the risk is.

 

I am just speculating, but I suspect, the 711 lady was thinking of SARS Cov2, not Norovirus. Thus her actions were pointless in terms of her concern.

If it's a case of everyone cleaning their hands, or like prior to corona hardly anyone doing so, I'm all for hand cleaning, whatever the reason.

[jackspade]

While COVID can "technically" be transmitted via surfaces, according to the CDC it's only 1 in 10,000 cases.

That's not to say we shouldn't all continue washing our hands.

[Tanomazu]

5 minutes ago, Nojohndoe said:

Oh ok.  So I can confidently go licking doorknobs. Cheers

Absolutely, you can lick 9999 door knobs and still not get Covid19 even if the doorknobs were infected.

 

CDC: "the odds of getting infected via a contaminated surface or object is "generally less than 1 in 10,000."

 

https://www.advisory.com/en/daily-briefing/2021/04/07/surface-transmission

 

Of course if there was a Norovirus outbreak you're screwed.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Tanomazu