Pidgin English

[wolfmanjack]

I am one of the guilty ones too!!!

Sometimes I try,although my wife speaks English pretty well,to introduce her to a better way of expressing yourself.But she replies to me with,yeah but I am not English aren't I?

And we stay in Thailand.So we speak ,like may couples I assume,Thai together with English.And we both,my Thai and her English is still improving,in a matter of saying, goes automatically.

I do think about it as not being such good to talk in this way,but I do not feel guilty.My Kids also speak Thai /english,but in school they speak full Thai.If anyone gets annoyed with this,it is your problem.Also I am not a native speaker also,it could be even more complicated when introducing Dutch as well.....no better not.

After all ,being in Thailand I should communicate in Thai more then English,if staying in a country which speaks English we should talk English,or German or Dutch for that manner.We farang and families talk in this way,cause of communication difficulties,we all compromise,learn and until that we swirl.I do not have a problem with that ,so long we can understand each other period.A short question,does anyone who irritates him/herself on this and living in Thailand ,speaks fluent Thai then?????Not many for sure,with speaking I also mean pronouncing like a Thai??If can't I think better do not give your opinion at all.Or is this not babytalking ,how I described how we communicate?

I only speak english with my wife. She gets mad when I speak thai to her.

I only speak english with my children. I also make my children translate for me when speaking to another thai even though I already understand what was said. I know too many falangs that have children that only speak thai forcing the father to speak thai also. I suspect that most of the posters that speak fluent thai and claim that they learned to do so out of the desire to immerse themselves in the thai culture are not completely honest with themselves. In my experience most of the falangs that speak fluent thai do so because their wife can not speak english (or the father's native tongue) and their children do not speak english (or the father's native tongue). I refused to let that happen.

[soundman]

What amuses me is that those who refuse to use the pidgin must end-up in some embarrassing situations (unless they speak reasonable Thai) - there will be numerous occasions where they cannot be understood yet they will refuse to simplify things so that they can be understood. I wonder if those who are arguing against pidgin are effective communcators in Thai and have simply forgotten their days of using pidgin? Someone pointed out (above) that communication is about getting ideas across; makes a lot of sense to me. My Thai language skills are limited and until I am far more adept in Thai, I will not embarras anyone by refusing to simplify the message. I will communicate.

I speak reasonable Thai but that by no means makes me understood 100% of the time. My factory staffs around 40 people, none of them speak much English.

Speaking pidgeon or speaking basic concise English is the same for them, so why not speak properly. The staff do learn to understand what you are saying very quickly, even if they can't hold a conversation in English. I think thai people are much more tolerant & understanding of language differences, they have to make do with a little knowledge of many different languages in their day to day life anyway. (The staff in my factory speak thai, issan, laos & a little kymer - real headache for me!!!).

Could you imagine:

You heya big boss wanna stuff big big move there speedo chop chop!!!

or

Please move that wood over there quickly.

The staff will hear:

Move wood there quickly. - Enough comprehension to get job done.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[Jet Gorgon]

No barb intended at your marriage, Onze.

But, when I started to learn any language, including my smattering of Thai, I learned the sentence (although I am always bemused that the first lesson I found in a mainland Chinese textbook was a conversation on how much bricks cost; the grammar, however, was correct in both lingos).

How hard is it to teach simple statements in any language? It's not like you teach subjunctives and noun clauses in the first lesson. Hello, how are you? Where is the toilet? How much is this shirt? Where are you going? Pretty darn simple.

I learned immediately to add ka to the end of every sentence I ever said in Thai and friends taught me whole sentences. Or how about just the key word: bus, beer, toilet. The prob with southern Asian and Chinese-linked languages is that their creators were smart enough to simplify the grammar long ago, so the concept of conjugating a verb or requiring a definite article is incomprehensible to many, just as tones are a wild card for most Westerners.

If I cannot say something in the local language, I speak slowly and softly in simple sentences. If that fails, sign language and semaphores always worked for me. Pidgin makes me cringe.

[soundman]

I only speak english with my wife. She gets mad when I speak thai to her.

I only speak english with my children. I also make my children translate for me when speaking to another thai even though I already understand what was said. I know too many falangs that have children that only speak thai forcing the father to speak thai also. I suspect that most of the posters that speak fluent thai and claim that they learned to do so out of the desire to immerse themselves in the thai culture are not completely honest with themselves. In my experience most of the falangs that speak fluent thai do so because their wife can not speak english (or the father's native tongue) and their children do not speak english (or the father's native tongue). I refused to let that happen.

I speak English to my daughter & she answers me in Thai..

Soundman.

[steveromagnino]

If people insisted on speaking to me in 'baby Thai' to help me out, then my Thai language skills would be even more lame than they are now.

OK, for all examples given to date, key points are:

- learn Thai and you don't need pidgeon at all (how anyone married to a Thai wouldn't speak Thai is beyond me, but there you go)

- use pidgeon in isolated one off situations, but it is a good idea to try proper Thai first and see if they can understand that; in longer term situations, only use pidgeon if the person you are with will never speak english to anyone outside of the non english speaking country/bargirl/broken english in Thailand scene - otherwise they will start meeting other english speakers who will have no idea what they are trying to say

- don't use pidgeon the whole time, as you WILL end up speaking to people (LIKE ME) who don't need it and can surprisingly are Thai but can speak/write english a whole lot better than most of yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeow

- mix with some different groups, and you might get over the perception that 'Thai people cannot speak english' - plenty can speak it just fine

- talk long long my fren you him go now 5555555

[wolfmanjack]

I only speak english with my wife. She gets mad when I speak thai to her.

I only speak english with my children. I also make my children translate for me when speaking to another thai even though I already understand what was said. I know too many falangs that have children that only speak thai forcing the father to speak thai also. I suspect that most of the posters that speak fluent thai and claim that they learned to do so out of the desire to immerse themselves in the thai culture are not completely honest with themselves. In my experience most of the falangs that speak fluent thai do so because their wife can not speak english (or the father's native tongue) and their children do not speak english (or the father's native tongue). I refused to let that happen.

I speak English to my daughter & she answers me in Thai..

Soundman.

that is what i was trying to avoid. I absolutely refused to answer at all when they spoke thai to me. If they did not know the english word i would tell them how to say it in english and then make them do so.

[soundman]

I only speak english with my wife. She gets mad when I speak thai to her.

I only speak english with my children. I also make my children translate for me when speaking to another thai even though I already understand what was said. I know too many falangs that have children that only speak thai forcing the father to speak thai also. I suspect that most of the posters that speak fluent thai and claim that they learned to do so out of the desire to immerse themselves in the thai culture are not completely honest with themselves. In my experience most of the falangs that speak fluent thai do so because their wife can not speak english (or the father's native tongue) and their children do not speak english (or the father's native tongue). I refused to let that happen.

I speak English to my daughter & she answers me in Thai..

Soundman.

that is what i was trying to avoid. I absolutely refused to answer at all when they spoke thai to me. If they did not know the english word i would tell them how to say it in english and then make them do so.

She speaks English just fine - its just a game of a rebellious three year old - especially when in front of her older cousins.

I'm not too worried. My daughter is born Thai & will have a Thai up-bringing in the early years of her life. She has just started at the local International School. They have two days per week of English only classes. At some time in her teenage years she will be off to Australia for a Western style education. (Geelong Grammar School)

Cheers,

Soundman.

[Jet Gorgon]

If people insisted on speaking to me in 'baby Thai' to help me out, then my Thai language skills would be even more lame than they are now.

OK, for all examples given to date, key points are:

- learn Thai and you don't need pidgeon at all (how anyone married to a Thai wouldn't speak Thai is beyond me, but there you go)

- use pidgeon in isolated one off situations, but it is a good idea to try proper Thai first and see if they can understand that; in longer term situations, only use pidgeon if the person you are with will never speak english to anyone outside of the non english speaking country/bargirl/broken english in Thailand scene - otherwise they will start meeting other english speakers who will have no idea what they are trying to say

- don't use pidgeon the whole time, as you WILL end up speaking to people (LIKE ME) who don't need it and can surprisingly are Thai but can speak/write english a whole lot better than most of yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeow

- mix with some different groups, and you might get over the perception that 'Thai people cannot speak english' - plenty can speak it just fine

- talk long long my fren you him go now 5555555

You tell them, Steve. I back you.

[onzestan]

No barb intended at your marriage, Onze.

I will accept that as an apology.

That does not mean that I agree with your point of view.

IMHO I believe that communication that is understood by both parties involved is the most important thing here.

If your system works for you that's fine with me, I have absolutely no qualms with that.But why be so arrogant to think that your method is the only one valid. It is very easy for someone to have had the good fortune of receiving a good education to forget that not everybody has had that luxury, and I'm sure that many would have welcomed that opportunity with open arms.

In my book there's nothing derogatory about pidgin, it's a means of communication and if you could bring yourself to accepting that it is a foreign language shared by many here in Thailand you would probably have a lot less problems accepting it for what it is.

Think how languages have evolved in the past, distance was the deciding factor, think how different a Liverpudlian and a Cockney speak and then realize that if it hadn't been for the advent of newspapers, radio, TV, schooling and many more modern means that have made the world smaller, that that would have been 2 different languages by now. Languages evolved from local dialects and mixing of cultures, through countless migrations from different tribes.

I hope I have gotten my point across, if not then so be it.

It can be a lot of fun speaking pidgin and there's nothing wrong with that.

No malice intended

onzestan (BTW my name is Stan)

[junkofdavid2]

When Thais communicate with farangs who speak "some" Thai, Thais also make an effort to use simple Thai words and structures instead of their "usual Thai fast lingo" because they know that most (not all) of these farangs would understand them better that way.

And the OP must feel very "insulted" by this.

Probably considers it much better if the Farangs don't understand well at the moment... at least the Farang won't "lose face" from being "talked down" to.

[Jet Gorgon]

Hmmm. I will need the Sinophiles to help me on this. I remember Sun Yat Sen, the "father" of modern China attending a western conference where one of the world leaders spoke to him in pidgin; Sun nodded to the man and replied in perfect English. Dam, getting old.

Anyway, here is a snippet from an old Telegraph article:

Posted by Richard Spencer on 10 Mar 2006 at 19:30

...

"Maybe I'm just being priggish. Chinese pidgin English is a particular embarrassment for all of us (especially to us Brits) as it's not a "natural" bad English accent but the "simplified" language coolies and servants were deliberately taught by their masters and mistresses in the colonial era. The assumption was, of course, that they couldn't possibly master the language properly."

Pidgin anywhere means just that to me, a belief that "natives" are below us and can never learn our language. Just because you never went to school does not mean you cannot understand or learn. (oooh, double negative, sorry.)

[steveromagnino]

I suspect that most of the posters that speak fluent thai and claim that they learned to do so out of the desire to immerse themselves in the thai culture are not completely honest with themselves. In my experience most of the falangs that speak fluent thai do so because their wife can not speak english (or the father's native tongue) and their children do not speak english (or the father's native tongue). I refused to let that happen.

How odd. My experience is that most of the fluent Thai speaking farangs i know have partners who tend to speak BETTER ENGLISH than the average.

I conclude this is usually the result of one partner being actually bilingual, and knowing how to share and the benefits of sharing the 2nd language with the other partner.

You can refuse your children the benefit of learning an extra language all you like but the reality is the world is a better place with multilingual language speakers; for a child to learn multiple langages is a walk in the park; much harder to do the same thing as an adult.

I will admit it is strange what screw ups some children of mixed Thai/western ethnicity tend to be; I don't think most of this is due to language, but rather the poor genes and education of one or both of the parents concerned. YOu would have thought they would be fluent in both languages, but often instead being inept at both and spoilt brats to boot adopting the worst of both cultures. When it works, it often works spectacularly well.

Hope your kids don't turn out to be the typical 1/2 Thai little s&*ts that many become with no ability to speak Thai at all and thinking they are white. :-)

* Takapuna terms and conditions apply, statements are indicative only.

[onzestan]

Hmmm. I will need the Sinophiles to help me on this. I remember Sun Yat Sen, the "father" of modern China attending a western conference where one of the world leaders spoke to him in pidgin; Sun nodded to the man and replied in perfect English. Dam, getting old.

Anyway, here is a snippet from an old Telegraph article:

Posted by Richard Spencer on 10 Mar 2006 at 19:30

...

"Maybe I'm just being priggish. Chinese pidgin English is a particular embarrassment for all of us (especially to us Brits) as it's not a "natural" bad English accent but the "simplified" language coolies and servants were deliberately taught by their masters and mistresses in the colonial era. The assumption was, of course, that they couldn't possibly master the language properly."

Pidgin anywhere means just that to me, a belief that "natives" are below us and can never learn our language. Just because you never went to school does not mean you cannot understand or learn. (oooh, double negative, sorry.)

If you want to believe that that's OK with me. Please allow me to have my own opinion based on my character, experiences and core belief in the good of people. I strongly believe that communication is far more important than language, and as I have said earlier I find it much more demeaning to constantly point to the mistakes in pronunciation somebody you love makes, than converse in a way we both understand. The first couple of years of my marriage where a rollercoaster simply because of the many misunderstandings in communication. It is only after we had developed a common pidgin that things improved dramatically.

I'm not a language tyrant and certainly not with someone that I love deeply, and if that's wrong in your book then ask yourself what you appreciate more in your relationship. Understanding each other or speaking correct English.

Anyway I'm not in the mood to turn this into a pissing contest, you have your opinion and I have mine, and there is nothing you can say that will make me change my point of view no matter how many learned scholars you care to quote, I'm happy with my life as it is because in my relationship it is important what we say, not how we say it.

Oh, before I forget, when I was learning Thai I invited people to speak to me same as they would with children and that has helped me a lot in assimilating the spoken language.

End of story

Cheers

Stan

[Boo]

anyone using the phrase "same same but different" makes me want to smack them one & pidgen is such an insult to the person your are doing it to IMO.

A friend speaks to her thai husband like this & it drives me up the wall as she also does it to my husband when we meet up. I have pulled her up on it a couple of tmes but she can't seem to help herslef so I make a point of being very proper & clear when speaking to him & amazingly when I speak to her man in normal english he is able to understand & respond without the need of pidgin translation, so whys she carries on talking to him in this way is beyond me.

I just hope their child doesn't pick up this offensive habit & start talking to his dad like he is a moron too??!!!

My husband can speak ready & write english to a near perfect level (ok speaking he has a vey deep voice & strong accent but still!) but becuase he is very quiet & doesn't say a lot generally, I often get comments from people (in front of him) about how improved his english is (usually when he has been forced to address them about something) or how they think his Englsih will improve in the future!! I get quite pissed off at having to explain that he speaks english thanks but just doesn't talk unless he has something to say. This embarrases the hel_l out of them as they have probably been discussing him whilst he has been present whithout realsing he can understand every word they say.

If someone choses to speak to their own partner in pidgen then thats their perogative but please please please dont' do it to mine or other peoples unless you know they can't speak english well & will only understand if you dumb it down.

[Fred Sanford]

I speak like this tp most thais. I find that they understand me far better when I speak english as they do. I do not speak thai. Many times I say things in correct english but they dont understand so I switch to Thai english. I have great success communicating to thais this way. nothing wrong with it if it helps them understand what I'm talking about. if they speak correct english then I speak correct to them also

Edited June 4, 2007 by Fred Sanford

[luckyluke]

In the country where i come from(at least in the north part )each pupil is supposed to communicate in dutch,french,english and german by the age of +/- 18,this in opposition of most englishspeaking countries where only one language is learned.So i think the people of the englsihspeaking countries are more stickler about using their language than we do,where for us it is more relevant to be able to communicate,so for me and many others non native english speakers it is not a problem to use pidgin english in certain circumstances.

[wolfmanjack]

I suspect that most of the posters that speak fluent thai and claim that they learned to do so out of the desire to immerse themselves in the thai culture are not completely honest with themselves. In my experience most of the falangs that speak fluent thai do so because their wife can not speak english (or the father's native tongue) and their children do not speak english (or the father's native tongue). I refused to let that happen.

How odd. My experience is that most of the fluent Thai speaking farangs i know have partners who tend to speak BETTER ENGLISH than the average.

I conclude this is usually the result of one partner being actually bilingual, and knowing how to share and the benefits of sharing the 2nd language with the other partner.

You can refuse your children the benefit of learning an extra language all you like but the reality is the world is a better place with multilingual language speakers; for a child to learn multiple langages is a walk in the park; much harder to do the same thing as an adult.

I will admit it is strange what screw ups some children of mixed Thai/western ethnicity tend to be; I don't think most of this is due to language, but rather the poor genes and education of one or both of the parents concerned. YOu would have thought they would be fluent in both languages, but often instead being inept at both and spoilt brats to boot adopting the worst of both cultures. When it works, it often works spectacularly well.

Hope your kids don't turn out to be the typical 1/2 Thai little s&*ts that many become with no ability to speak Thai at all and thinking they are white. :-)

* Takapuna terms and conditions apply, statements are indicative only.

I know 1 person that learned thai before they came to thailand because of their missionary program. Every other falang I know that has learned thai did so out of necessity to communicate with their spouse and afterwards their children. My children speak very good english. They also speak very good thai. My program was that my wife only speak thai to the children and I only speak english. Also my children attend a regular thai school here in the village and will do so until they learn to read and write thai. My children can not figure out why the kids at their school call them falang. My son asks me what is wrong with them? Can't they see that he is half falang and half thai ?? IF he gets any kind of complex at all it will be because of the other children treating him the way they do. Personally i think it is very sad that children with an American father can not speak any english.

Edited June 4, 2007 by wolfmanjack

[wolfmanjack]

I only speak english with my wife. She gets mad when I speak thai to her.

I only speak english with my children. I also make my children translate for me when speaking to another thai even though I already understand what was said. I know too many falangs that have children that only speak thai forcing the father to speak thai also. I suspect that most of the posters that speak fluent thai and claim that they learned to do so out of the desire to immerse themselves in the thai culture are not completely honest with themselves. In my experience most of the falangs that speak fluent thai do so because their wife can not speak english (or the father's native tongue) and their children do not speak english (or the father's native tongue). I refused to let that happen.

I speak English to my daughter & she answers me in Thai..

Soundman.

that is what i was trying to avoid. I absolutely refused to answer at all when they spoke thai to me. If they did not know the english word i would tell them how to say it in english and then make them do so.

She speaks English just fine - its just a game of a rebellious three year old - especially when in front of her older cousins.

I'm not too worried. My daughter is born Thai & will have a Thai up-bringing in the early years of her life. She has just started at the local International School. They have two days per week of English only classes. At some time in her teenage years she will be off to Australia for a Western style education. (Geelong Grammar School)

Cheers,

Soundman.

Good. I am glad you have a plan. I am also glad that your daughter speaks english. Also I am not being patronizing. I have never cringed after reading one of your posts.

I resolved myself to do it the way i did because i know another american that was trying to get his daughter to speak english. As soon as she figured out that he understood what she was saying in thai she refused to speak english. It probably started out to be a stubborn thing but she won the stubborn contest. He now speaks fluent thai and at 14 years old she will not speak english. I beleive that she understands english and if she was sent to the USA she would be forced to use english and would be fluent in a short time.

Using the method that I have used both of my children automatically speak english to white people and thai to the thai people. They can say a sentence in thai and then repeat it in english so every one present will understand what they said. Many thais at the market have very surprised looks on their face when my kids do this.

Cheers

WMJ

[Jet Gorgon]

anyone using the phrase "same same but different" makes me want to smack them one & pidgen is such an insult to the person your are doing it to IMO.

A friend speaks to her thai husband like this & it drives me up the wall as she also does it to my husband when we meet up. I have pulled her up on it a couple of tmes but she can't seem to help herslef so I make a point of being very proper & clear when speaking to him & amazingly when I speak to her man in normal english he is able to understand & respond without the need of pidgin translation, so whys she carries on talking to him in this way is beyond me.

I just hope their child doesn't pick up this offensive habit & start talking to his dad like he is a moron too??!!!

My husband can speak ready & write english to a near perfect level (ok speaking he has a vey deep voice & strong accent but still!) but becuase he is very quiet & doesn't say a lot generally, I often get comments from people (in front of him) about how improved his english is (usually when he has been forced to address them about something) or how they think his Englsih will improve in the future!! I get quite pissed off at having to explain that he speaks english thanks but just doesn't talk unless he has something to say. This embarrases the hel_l out of them as they have probably been discussing him whilst he has been present whithout realsing he can understand every word they say.

If someone choses to speak to their own partner in pidgen then thats their perogative but please please please dont' do it to mine or other peoples unless you know they can't speak english well & will only understand if you dumb it down.

Yep. I can tell you are PO-ed, Boo. Onze, you still speak babytalk in other languages, like they first taught you? Embarrassing man. That's what pidgin is.

[LinkPopularity]

don't take it too personal, it's not baby English, it's just Thai literally translated to English, they actually speak like that in Thai

I notice myself also doing it from time to time, ok, I'm not native English, so the way my girls talk to me has as much influence on me as vice versa

I don't care, it's not about speaking right English, it's about understanding each other ... we speak Thainglish to each other and it works just fine ...

[OxfordWill]

Pidgin anywhere means just that to me, a belief that "natives" are below us and can never learn our language. Just because you never went to school does not mean you cannot understand or learn. (oooh, double negative, sorry.)

Spot on again, but I wonder how many of us are aware of this important historical fact. Kind of like Thai teenagers wearing Nazi symbols, blissfully unaware of the meaning of their actions. There now seem to be three main points against the consistent, initial use of pidgin English:

- Historically insulting

- Presumptious as to the level of ability of the listener, potential to insult if they have the slightest inkling that you are deliberately "dumbing it down" for them

- Generally setting a very poor example of how to speak the language and does not help improve the situation

Say NO to Pidgin!

[onzestan]

Onze, you still speak babytalk in other languages, like they first taught you? Embarrassing man. That's what pidgin is.

Well, well well Jet Gorgon.

There is no such fury as a woman scorned is there. You insist on attacking me personally, first my marriage, then my intelligence, comparing me to a monkey and now claiming I speak babytalk in all the languages I have mastered.

Obviously you don't know me, and in your guild ridden feelings over what your ancestry did to those poor chinese a long time ago, your false pride, and your persistence that the use of any pidgin is an insult even when people don't intend it to be an insult but a compliment, shows me that you have a lot to learn about tolerance from the Thai people.

Once again I don't use pidgin English with my wife, I use a form of communication that suits us both.

Do yourself a favor and step down from your pedestal, there's a whole lot of fun to be had out there without having to insist on the use of correct English.

Communication is what separates us from the animals, language is a barrier.

Stan

[steveromagnino]

your persistence that the use of any pidgin is an insult even when people don't intend it to be an insult but a compliment, shows me that you have a lot to learn about tolerance from the Thai people.

Most Thai people I know with ok english, consider it insulting and stupid when farang insist on talking to them in broken pidgeon english, but put up with it as they don't want the person to lose face, or simply don't care enough to say anything. Tolerance doesn't mean they like it.

It does seriously f&*k me off when farang people insist on using pidgeon english with me; first 10 sec, ok, but once you KNOW I speak english better than you do, don't treat me like a baby.

Pidgeon has never been any compliment to me.!

[onzestan]

your persistence that the use of any pidgin is an insult even when people don't intend it to be an insult but a compliment, shows me that you have a lot to learn about tolerance from the Thai people.

Most Thai people I know with ok english, consider it insulting and stupid when farang insist on talking to them in broken pidgeon english, but put up with it as they don't want the person to lose face, or simply don't care enough to say anything. Tolerance doesn't mean they like it.

It does seriously f&*k me off when farang people insist on using pidgeon english with me; first 10 sec, ok, but once you KNOW I speak english better than you do, don't treat me like a baby.

Pidgeon has never been any compliment to me.!

Dear steveromagnino,

First of all you have taken the above quote out of context.

Secondly I do not deny you the right to feel insulted by anything, and you should not deny me my right to defend myself against false accusations.

There is no way that anyone on this forum is going to change my viewpoint that I communicate with my wife by whatever means I and she find appropriate, because I don't call it pidgin I call it a common communication tool.

Oh and by the way, I find the liberal use of the word "farang"on this forum far more degrading than the use of so called pidgin, because that is a word intended to be degrading.

I'm not a farang, I'm a european.

Once again no malice intended.

Stan

[Jet Gorgon]

Wow, Stan, I believe you be all over map mak mak. (translation courtesy of a girl I know who works in a bar)

Let's see what you said:

Once again I don't use pidgin English with my wife, I use a form of communication that suits us both.

Oh. Before you said, along with insinuating that another poster was not as intelligent as you:

"I'm fluent in English, French, German and Dutch, I can get by in Thai, Spanish and Greek...Knowing all these languages I still speak pidgin with my wife...BTW how many languages are you fluent in?"

"Communication is what separates us from the animals, language is a barrier."

Woof! Get beer now ching ching, TDSK. Ching gei wo ige pijou.

"Do yourself a favor and step down from your pedestal, there's a whole lot of fun to be had out there without having to insist on the use of correct English."

Ya, well, Stan, I'm a writer. Maybe in slipperland you don't need correct language skills, but I and others certainly do.

And I have met Euro-types with babytalk language skills who scorn others who do not understand the basics of these languages, especially if these folks are American or Asian. You got pidgin for German and French, too?

[Jet Gorgon]

your persistence that the use of any pidgin is an insult even when people don't intend it to be an insult but a compliment, shows me that you have a lot to learn about tolerance from the Thai people.

Most Thai people I know with ok english, consider it insulting and stupid when farang insist on talking to them in broken pidgeon english, but put up with it as they don't want the person to lose face, or simply don't care enough to say anything. Tolerance doesn't mean they like it.

It does seriously f&*k me off when farang people insist on using pidgeon english with me; first 10 sec, ok, but once you KNOW I speak english better than you do, don't treat me like a baby.

Pidgeon has never been any compliment to me.!

Steve, forget it; wonklettes like this will never understand. I can only hope he doesn't have kids as they would likely speak multi-lingual pidgin that nobody would comprehend and then end up as songtaew drivers in Patpong.

[qwertz]

Hallo Jet, if I may interject a word or two into this handbag swinging tournament.

I take it we're talking about communication here.

If so, the original Latin meaning is the benchmark - verbal communication.

It doesn't specify choice of words or accent.

My second wife spoke no English, I spoke no Cambodian. Just by luck we both spoke French

My third wife spoke only German and Russian so I learned German.

In both cases we had perfect understanding with imperfect language.

My first wife was a Brit and we managed to misunderstand each other perfectly in good English.

So if a German wants to speak English to me and makes mistakes like, "I go always shopping Fridays", I'm not about to give him a lecture on syntax or the use of adverbs of frequency.

Perfectly understandable is perfect enough for me.

[onzestan]

Wow, Stan, I believe you be all over map mak mak. (translation courtesy of a girl I know who works in a bar)

Let's see what you said:

Once again I don't use pidgin English with my wife, I use a form of communication that suits us both.

Oh. Before you said, along with insinuating that another poster was not as intelligent as you:

"I'm fluent in English, French, German and Dutch, I can get by in Thai, Spanish and Greek...Knowing all these languages I still speak pidgin with my wife...BTW how many languages are you fluent in?"

"Communication is what separates us from the animals, language is a barrier."

Woof! Get beer now ching ching, TDSK. Ching gei wo ige pijou.

"Do yourself a favor and step down from your pedestal, there's a whole lot of fun to be had out there without having to insist on the use of correct English."

Ya, well, Stan, I'm a writer. Maybe in slipperland you don't need correct language skills, but I and others certainly do.

And I have met Euro-types with babytalk language skills who scorn others who do not understand the basics of these languages, especially if these folks are American or Asian. You got pidgin for German and French, too?

So Ok you're a writer, and your English is better than mine and maybe, just maybe you are more intelligent than I am, I'll give you that.

Once again you don't know me, so who gave you the right to insult my marriage, my intelligence, my method of learning foreign languages and above all my right to speak to my wife in whatever me and she wish.

You can write in your books or whatever you write what you want, but stop insulting me on this forum and I'll go away quietly, and that is not a retreat but plain and simple common sense.

I'll leave it up to others to decide who is wrong on this one and I'm sure that opinions will be divided.

Stan

[soundman]

So if a German wants to speak English to me and makes mistakes like, "I go always shopping Fridays", I'm not about to give him a lecture on syntax or the use of adverbs of frequency.

Perfectly understandable is perfect enough for me.

As a second language it is forgivable for people to make mistakes. As a first language I do believe one should attempt to speak correctly, even if sentence & word structure are simplified for the listener...

Apart from pidgeon, what do other members think of tinglish??

Cheers,

Soundman.

[Ping]

Pidgin anywhere means just that to me, a belief that "natives" are below us and can never learn our language. Just because you never went to school does not mean you cannot understand or learn. (oooh, double negative, sorry.)

Spot on again, but I wonder how many of us are aware of this important historical fact. Kind of like Thai teenagers wearing Nazi symbols, blissfully unaware of the meaning of their actions. There now seem to be three main points against the consistent, initial use of pidgin English:

- Historically insulting

- Presumptious as to the level of ability of the listener, potential to insult if they have the slightest inkling that you are deliberately "dumbing it down" for them

- Generally setting a very poor example of how to speak the language and does not help improve the situation

Say NO to Pidgin!

Three points:

1. It amazes me that personal insults continue. We all have a right to our opinions and if we all agreed with each other, the World would be a different place (one religion [or no religion], one World community, etc) and there would be no debates because we would all be in blissful concord. I happen to take the viewpoint that pidgin can be useful, but only in appropriate circumstances. That does not make me a fool, arrogant, or otherwise. And (at risk of repeating myself) I am not about to insult someone who takes a contrary view.

2. Another issue is the insistence that the swastika symbols are Nazi - the symbols have a depth of history in Asia that precedes the Nazi regime's decision to utilise it for their purposes. This I have also previously explained (try looking-up the derivation of the word sawasdee, for example). Should Asians stop using the symbols simply because a criminal regime hijacked them?

3. This topic has become circular and is degenerating into a slanging match. Where are the Mods?