You know, there is an alternative English level that I've become proficient in over so many years of doing business in foreign countries. I also speak a number of languages, some fluently, some in various degrees of fluency. I find it useful in Thailand, when the conversation has to be in English, and as an example, where you have a meeting room full of Thais, with various levels of English.

This is nothing more than extremely simplified English, using very short sentences, consciously stripped of any and all slang terms, spoken at a steady, unhurried pace in a clear enunciated voice with as little regional accent you may have, and making some grammatical omissions. You have to stop often and check if you were understood. This may be painful to some, but greatly facilitates conversation. It's not really pidgin, but not really full on English either. That works best in situations where you don't want to descend to pidgin. This may sound easy, but try speaking while simultaneously searching your mind for a simpler word at all times to convey something and see how hard it can be. It takes practice, and you have to check your ego at the door.

The idea that some people won't modify or sacrifice grammar rules, etc., or refuse to use alternate ways of communicating and refuse to speak anything other than "proper" English is rubbish to me. Those are the ones who I've always seen as the least effective.

Oh and by the way, I find the liberal use of the word "farang"on this forum far more degrading than the use of so called pidgin, because that is a word intended to be degrading.

I'm not a farang, I'm a european.

Dear Stan

Just FYI farang is similar to:

caucasian

Asian

Black

etc

It is in no way an insult or degrading.

It is simply a description of your appearance - you are European therefore a Farang. For the same reason I do not object to being called Asian. And in the west, you bet I hear that a lot, although usually I get to hear some more variants on it that are offensive.

I have no idea what nonsense someone has told you as to what this word means, but as a Thai, I am telling you this pretty much as a fact - it means person with fair skin of european ethnicity. As a part farang, I get called it regularly, it means not much and certainly it doesn't insult me aside from the fact that I don't really consider myself that white, so it isn't that accurate.

Can it be used insultingly? Sure, same as I could say, that [insert angry face and angry tone of voice] man = that frigging idiot. but is the word man therefore insulting? I would think not. The insult is implied contextually by tone and face.

Or perhaps you dislike the Thai habit of referring to people by salient features rather than their name? e.g. farang kon nun or ajarn or nai pom etc etc. I seldom hear my own name in the workplace/outside of work, that is simply not normally the way the language is constructed, and makes it different to english. Again, not remotely an insult in itself, but rather it can be part of an insult as in farang neung dtua or similar; however this would be like saying the letter F is insulting because it is part of the insult motherf((((r. Nonsensical.

Sadly the misconceptions about the word farang for people who speak hardly any Thai is about on par with the misconceptions some Thai people have about words in english. Solutions are to teach them some more or just talk to them in simple terms. Saying what you mean simply is a worthwhile skill to develop in writing and speaking for anyone. There are plenty of ways to eliminate difficult phrases and tenses by just speaking simply. But sa-peeak pidgeon same same that for understand good? I think no good na.

Chintee - you seem to have hit the nail on the head. Simple, clear, precise and mostly grammatically correct english works just fine even with people who aren't native speakers.

I just don't get the need for pidgeon unless it is an absolute necessity; hard indeed to teach an old dog new tricks. Sounds like for you, Stan, it is a necessity, and it sounds like you have a great solution :-)

For some cases like this, the educated partner might do better learning Thai to communicate effectively with someone who has such major problems in learning the basics of a new language.

Edited June 4, 200719 yr by steveromagnino

The idea that some people won't modify or sacrifice grammar rules, etc., or refuse to use alternate ways of communicating and refuse to speak anything other than "proper" English is rubbish to me. Those are the ones who I've always seen as the least effective.

Thank you for that.

regards

Stan

It is a "baby talk" rather than pidgin.

I lived and worked in Papua New Guinea, pidgin is an official language there - it is spoken in their Parliament. And I was using it all day long to communicate with my local staff.

It has about 1200 words and is completely autonomous communication vehicle. Probably, because PNG has over 700 languages, each spoken by about 3000 people. Due to tribal wars, the villages never communicated and never mixed, except for fights and wars.

Down in Port Moresby (PNG capital), they needed something to glue them up and the pidgin was the solution, in absence of proper education.

For example:

Thai: How old you?

Pidgin: How many Christmases belong you?

Thai: a policeman

Pidgin: Gabamen catchin fella

Thai: piano

Pidgin: Black man, white teeth, you fight him, he cry

Nothing like that can be heard in Thailand.

The name pidgin came from "Peking", Beijing, it were the Dutch merchants who used it to negotiate their deals with the Chinese.

For some cases like this, the educated partner might do better learning Thai to communicate effectively with someone who has such major problems in learning the basics of a new language.

OK, sensible reply. I guess that once again I have let my emotions get the better of me. Sorry for that.

I admit that at my age, and physical condition it has become harder and harder to learn a new language, there's no shame in admitting that, and I sometimes feel very frustrated at not getting the tones right.

That doesn't mean that I'm not proud of what I have achieved in my younger years, and may I say against overwhelming odds.

I cannot begin to tell you what my relation with my wife means to me, and I have not one negative feeling about the way we communicate because we have found a way that if one of us makes a mistake we both have a good laugh about it, and if I'm not mistaken that's what love is all about.

BTW if I address a Thai person I start off in my best Thai possible.

Thanks for your comprehension and I promise you to try and control my temper a bit more.

My best regards

Stan

Three points:

1. It amazes me that personal insults continue. We all have a right to our opinions and if we all agreed with each other, the World would be a different place (one religion [or no religion], one World community, etc) and there would be no debates because we would all be in blissful concord. I happen to take the viewpoint that pidgin can be useful, but only in appropriate circumstances. That does not make me a fool, arrogant, or otherwise. And (at risk of repeating myself) I am not about to insult someone who takes a contrary view.

2. Another issue is the insistence that the swastika symbols are Nazi - the symbols have a depth of history in Asia that precedes the Nazi regime's decision to utilise it for their purposes. This I have also previously explained (try looking-up the derivation of the word sawasdee, for example). Should Asians stop using the symbols simply because a criminal regime hijacked them?

3. This topic has become circular and is degenerating into a slanging match. Where are the Mods?

Im not insulting anyone.. please show me where I have done so and I will apologise accordingly.

Please note I am aware of the history of the Swastika and its Buddhist roots but in this case they are not the buddhist symbol which is actually a reverse of the swastika. You can buy the swastikas alongside pictures of Adolf Hitler. There was a very big story a year or two back about a man in Pattaya training up young nazis from dissaffected Thai youths. Many Thai teens are obsessed with Nazism and go through "a phase". It is ignorance and it is fashion. I know one guy who is a student at uni here and his choice of clothes when he goes to rock gigs is to wear a mixture of punk, nazi and communist fashion. It is all the same to him- completely meaningless and when I explained it to him in Thai he did not care, not his history, not his country but he likes the shapes. It is a very real fashion; I urge you to investigate further.

Edited June 4, 200719 yr by OxfordWill

The thing is that there is no point to it. It's more helpful to speak correctly and clearly (not easy in Scotland for the second one).

Speek fae ya'sel ya raj bam ye. I cum fae Scoatla'n an we speek prrropar English, ye ken an'at ??

Actually it must be hard for Thais in the UK (for example) to deal with all the different regional dialects. I come from the capital of the Highlands which has a famously neutral accent so my GF has a fairly easy time following the conversation.

As far as the baby talk thing goes, I don't do it unless necessary. I mean some people's English is so non existent that unless you revert to the basics there will be a complete communication breakdown.

what about this one ... the most ridiculous one's are those English people who can't even speak English properly !

Closed at OP's request.