The Constitutional Tribunal Disbands Thai Rak Thai - Election cheating

[younghusband]

The Democrats behaviour was fairly disgraceful,sabotaging elections they knew they would lose, and was widely condemned by international opinion at the time.

Would you happen to have some examples where the Democrats actions were widely condemned by international opinion? I'm having difficulty locating any references that state that.

It's a meaningless request since the main international journals of record simply express their own view and do not obviously summarise those of others.You have spent the last year posting hundreds of articles supporting your anti-Thaksin preoccupation and not once to my knowledge have you posted an article not reflecting, if I may say so, your rather one dimensional position.Never mind that's in the past and Thaksin's gone.You have obviously plenty of time on your hands so for the next week please carefully research the New York Times, Economist,Times of London, Asian Wall Street Journal etc.If you haven't by the end of that time found at least 2-3 articles touching on the Democrats' irresponsibility pm me and I will steer you in the right direction.

[jdinasia]

The Democrats behaviour was fairly disgraceful,sabotaging elections they knew they would lose, and was widely condemned by international opinion at the time.

Would you happen to have some examples where the Democrats actions were widely condemned by international opinion? I'm having difficulty locating any references that state that.

It's a meaningless request since the main international journals of record simply express their own view and do not obviously summarise those of others.You have spent the last year posting hundreds of articles supporting your anti-Thaksin preoccupation and not once to my knowledge have you posted an article not reflecting, if I may say so, your rather one dimensional position.Never mind that's in the past and Thaksin's gone.You have obviously plenty of time on your hands so for the next week please carefully research the New York Times, Economist,Times of London, Asian Wall Street Journal etc.If you haven't by the end of that time found at least 2-3 articles touching on the Democrats' irresponsibility pm me and I will steer you in the right direction.

2-3 articles in the international press would be considered 'widely condemned'? LOL

Have you considered the possibility that there was no 'wide condemnation' internationally of the Demo's for not playing into Thaksin's hand?

BTW ... a party that played by the rules and still exists .... DOES have some right to claim the moral high-road over a party that cheated and was disbanded

Edited June 4, 2007 by jdinasia

[Tony Clifton]

The TRT is like a weed that just simply refuses to go away. They are banned as a party so they arrogantly now call themselves as a group. Now from what I am reading several of them attended the PTV rally even that they said they would not attend. Apparently their word still means nothing or they are starting to take on more characteristics of their founder Thaksin.

As I see it they still care nothing for the rule of law, so apparently this punishment was not sever enough for them.

A while back I said that it may take putting them in the Bangkok Hilton to stop them from trying to divide the country. I wonder when someone will decide they are in contempt of court and do just that.

How ironic that Chaturon is now talking about the next election being a one horse race. The nerve... and voluntary memory loss required to be a TRT member.

Seems it will take TRT a while to realize what has happened and get used to not being able to manipulate everything and everyone around them, spoiled political brats. They will bring more trouble onto themselves, like moths on a light bulb, they just can't help it . They will keep on doing business as usual until they inevitably cross the line again and find themselves in front of judges once more. They always did and always will.

"We will accept the verdict." They were on stage protesting within 12 hours of the verdict. Expect to see them in court again.

[Grover]

The Democrats behaviour was fairly disgraceful,sabotaging elections they knew they would lose, and was widely condemned by international opinion at the time.

Would you happen to have some examples where the Democrats actions were widely condemned by international opinion? I'm having difficulty locating any references that state that.

It's a meaningless request since the main international journals of record simply express their own view and do not obviously summarise those of others.You have spent the last year posting hundreds of articles supporting your anti-Thaksin preoccupation and not once to my knowledge have you posted an article not reflecting, if I may say so, your rather one dimensional position.Never mind that's in the past and Thaksin's gone.You have obviously plenty of time on your hands so for the next week please carefully research the New York Times, Economist,Times of London, Asian Wall Street Journal etc.If you haven't by the end of that time found at least 2-3 articles touching on the Democrats' irresponsibility pm me and I will steer you in the right direction.

2-3 articles in the international press would be considered 'widely condemned'? LOL

yes, another sufferer of the fluff phrase syndrome

[Prakanong]

"coruption and political corrption will not be brushed under the carpet any longer. those who are found guilty will be punished."

Thank you for brightening up my morning - you are truly a comedian.

PS: I can only assume you ARE a comedian otherwise the diagnosis would be different ;-)

[Plus]

Democrats refused to participate in a rigged show, not democratic elections.

It was a tough choice and they had difficult time making up their mind but in the end they decided to do a right thing even at the expense of their "honor" among the thieves.

By participating in those shameless elections they would have accepted them as legitimate, which would have betrayed their principles and trust people put in them as a party.

They refused a dare, they didn't react to "Chicken!", they stood their course.

Does anyone remember how PAD refused to accept the election? Does anyone remember how people tore apart their ballots in defiance?

In the end they were all vindicated when the courts ruled elections illegitimate.

[gdhm]

EXTRACT

......Like Thaksin or not, and i don't, but people did vote for him. That is democracy....

To save space I have only pasted one sentence from your interesting and well debated message.

I wish to say that what you have said is well put and argued.

My only comments would be that just because Thailand politics has always been steeped in corruption that the concept to allow it to always continue (and probably get worse) is not possible IF the Thailand people truly wish to embrace the full extent of democracy.

With regard to your ONE sentence above,

I wish to mention that Yes people did vote for Thaksin and elect him, and would almost certainly have elected him again last time. As you rightly say "that is democracy" BUT unfortunately, rigging a General Election to get around the Thai 20% electoral rules laws in order to get re-elected and retain power has nothing to do with democracy. In fact it is quite the reverse, as it steals the Thai people's democratic rights to vote and and have their vote recognised in a "fair and legal" General Election.

Kind regards,

Dave

[younghusband]

The Democrats behaviour was fairly disgraceful,sabotaging elections they knew they would lose, and was widely condemned by international opinion at the time.

Would you happen to have some examples where the Democrats actions were widely condemned by international opinion? I'm having difficulty locating any references that state that.

It's a meaningless request since the main international journals of record simply express their own view and do not obviously summarise those of others.You have spent the last year posting hundreds of articles supporting your anti-Thaksin preoccupation and not once to my knowledge have you posted an article not reflecting, if I may say so, your rather one dimensional position.Never mind that's in the past and Thaksin's gone.You have obviously plenty of time on your hands so for the next week please carefully research the New York Times, Economist,Times of London, Asian Wall Street Journal etc.If you haven't by the end of that time found at least 2-3 articles touching on the Democrats' irresponsibility pm me and I will steer you in the right direction.

2-3 articles in the international press would be considered 'widely condemned'? LOL

Have you considered the possibility that there was no 'wide condemnation' internationally of the Demo's for not playing into Thaksin's hand?

BTW ... a party that played by the rules and still exists .... DOES have some right to claim the moral high-road over a party that cheated and was disbanded

Yes I believe criticism in a few internationally respected journals of record is worth paying attention to as opposed say to the vapourings of.....well,let's not go there.I want to remain charitable.

[chanchao]

If they hadn't done this or something similar - they, the Democrats were finished as a political force. Very smart if you ask me.

Well, I sure hope they're happy.

Interesting move, burning down the house because you can't convince enough people to vote you in.

I can UNDERSTAND it of course, but only if you disregard any demoncratic principle and view it strictly as a power/influence/business type of campaign; which Thai politics IS of course, yet I had the hope the Democrats would stick to higher standards. I hope they're happy.

[younghusband]

Democrats refused to participate in a rigged show, not democratic elections.

It was a tough choice and they had difficult time making up their mind but in the end they decided to do a right thing even at the expense of their "honor" among the thieves.

By participating in those shameless elections they would have accepted them as legitimate, which would have betrayed their principles and trust people put in them as a party.

They refused a dare, they didn't react to "Chicken!", they stood their course.

Does anyone remember how PAD refused to accept the election? Does anyone remember how people tore apart their ballots in defiance?

In the end they were all vindicated when the courts ruled elections illegitimate.

This puts the Democrats case quite well but it is specious.The inconvenient truth is that they knew they would lose and all the grandiose words amount to justification of that reality.I think most intelligent people can spot the moral hypocrisy here.

[jdinasia]

The Democrats behaviour was fairly disgraceful,sabotaging elections they knew they would lose, and was widely condemned by international opinion at the time.

Would you happen to have some examples where the Democrats actions were widely condemned by international opinion? I'm having difficulty locating any references that state that.

It's a meaningless request since the main international journals of record simply express their own view and do not obviously summarise those of others.You have spent the last year posting hundreds of articles supporting your anti-Thaksin preoccupation and not once to my knowledge have you posted an article not reflecting, if I may say so, your rather one dimensional position.Never mind that's in the past and Thaksin's gone.You have obviously plenty of time on your hands so for the next week please carefully research the New York Times, Economist,Times of London, Asian Wall Street Journal etc.If you haven't by the end of that time found at least 2-3 articles touching on the Democrats' irresponsibility pm me and I will steer you in the right direction.

2-3 articles in the international press would be considered 'widely condemned'? LOL

Have you considered the possibility that there was no 'wide condemnation' internationally of the Demo's for not playing into Thaksin's hand?

BTW ... a party that played by the rules and still exists .... DOES have some right to claim the moral high-road over a party that cheated and was disbanded

Yes I believe criticism in a few internationally respected journals of record is worth paying attention to as opposed say to the vapourings of.....well,let's not go there.I want to remain charitable.

sorry ... we were looking for wide condemnation by the international community of the Democrats not standing in the election ..... <your claim ...> But since that in fact did NOT happen ... well

I get it you are 'not happy' with their choosing to do what they thought was right! But ... well ... too bad! Again they have a higher moral place to stand upon than the convicted opponents

[younghusband]

The Democrats behaviour was fairly disgraceful,sabotaging elections they knew they would lose, and was widely condemned by international opinion at the time.

Would you happen to have some examples where the Democrats actions were widely condemned by international opinion? I'm having difficulty locating any references that state that.

It's a meaningless request since the main international journals of record simply express their own view and do not obviously summarise those of others.You have spent the last year posting hundreds of articles supporting your anti-Thaksin preoccupation and not once to my knowledge have you posted an article not reflecting, if I may say so, your rather one dimensional position.Never mind that's in the past and Thaksin's gone.You have obviously plenty of time on your hands so for the next week please carefully research the New York Times, Economist,Times of London, Asian Wall Street Journal etc.If you haven't by the end of that time found at least 2-3 articles touching on the Democrats' irresponsibility pm me and I will steer you in the right direction.

2-3 articles in the international press would be considered 'widely condemned'? LOL

Have you considered the possibility that there was no 'wide condemnation' internationally of the Demo's for not playing into Thaksin's hand?

BTW ... a party that played by the rules and still exists .... DOES have some right to claim the moral high-road over a party that cheated and was disbanded

Yes I believe criticism in a few internationally respected journals of record is worth paying attention to as opposed say to the vapourings of.....well,let's not go there.I want to remain charitable.

sorry ... we were looking for wide condemnation by the international community of the Democrats not standing in the election ..... <your claim ...> But since that in fact did NOT happen ... well

I get it you are 'not happy' with their choosing to do what they thought was right! But ... well ... too bad! Again they have a higher moral place to stand upon than the convicted opponents

You keep on missing the point so unless you shift up a gear I'm not responding further.Anyway one last time.I don't blame the Democrats and by any measure they faced a dilemma.They resorted to a clever piece of realpolitik which has worked well for them.It was not however a particularly admirable device and it had the effect of thwartingthe will of most Thais.If you don't think Abhisit didn't agonise about this and has at least some sense of remorse you don't know the man.(And in answer to your question, I do at least a little).

On the second part the Democrats decision was an internal Thailand matter:it wasn't a crime:it wasn't against the law.Obviously the international community in the sense of governments,UN etc are not going to condemn.It's a relatively trivial matter and none of their business anyway.It's the international journals of record that commented on the hypocrisy and elements of sabotage..If you don't care what they think so be it.

[lukamar]

It's good to see that after many many months the anti-Thaksinites still paint everyone that does not agree with them as a pro-Thaksin supporter and no one has changed their viewpoint, even a little bit.. For the record, I thought that they both should get the axe because the boycott by the Democrats was a major factor in the action taken by the TRT. If the Democrats ran, the TRT would have not taken the illegal action they did. They were both complicit in the act.

It's also worth noting that the majority of the voters in the country are under the "pro-Thaksin" banner that's something the Democrats are going to have to live with. In over 50 years they have not shown a rats ass about the rural poor and the rural poor all know it. Few of them will believe the Democrats if they, all of a sudden. try to sweep them off their feet with words and promises or rework TRT policies. They have been there and know that they get nothing under the Democrats. Politics is still very polarized and unstable and maybe that's what the Junta wants at this stage.

[A_Traveller]

What is so dispiriting is the trenchant repeatability of individuals positions, without recourse to facts.

1. The No Vote campaign was not just the Democrats, but the main opposition parties acting in concert after legal advice.
   
2. TRT decided to act illegally to create straw men to avoid the legal 20% of poll limitation. That decision was TRT's alone, and it is specious to suggest otherwise.
   
3. Many choose to forget that the 1997 charter was designed to strengthen the position of the PM and Cabinet, whilst reducing the supposed turmoil of parliament, which in the drafters view was damaging the political system.
   
4. Some of those internally who now criticise the actions were involved in the creation of the charter and have their own agenda for not wanting the debate to look at the implications of this.
   
5. Charters here remind me of the old warrior's saw, battle plans are always about fighting the last one, not this one.
   

Let us also not forget Thaksin's 'democratic' record. He complained about having to answer to unelected judges, and argued that restraints on his authority are unnecessary, since his wife would keep him in line. He appointed his cousin supreme commander of the armed forces, and his brother-in-law assistant chief of the national police. During his tenure, Thailand's various watchdog agencies lost much of their strength and independence. The Senate selected two former members of his staff to serve on the then Constitutional Court. Other friends and associates have joined the National Counter Corruption Commission, which had previously accused Thaksin of corruption.

The 1997 charter reduced the size of the cabinet from 48 members to 36. However, Thaksin's bureaucratic reform bills, enacted in 2002, created five new ministries {making a total of 20} and 35 new departments. The debt office and enterprise department were placed under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Finance, which centralised contrary to the 1997 charter, thereby increasing the power of the state sector and, by this extension, the exceutive.

Concerns about what Thaksin might have decided to do after the April poll seem to have some justification in his track record. With sufficient votes to amend the charter and avoid real scrutiny either by the House or by the muzzled press who can honestly say where the country might have ended up.

Regards

/edit a few typos//

Edited June 4, 2007 by A_Traveller

[jdinasia]

It's good to see that after many many months the anti-Thaksinites still paint everyone that does not agree with them as a pro-Thaksin supporter and no one has changed their viewpoint, even a little bit.. For the record, I thought that they both should get the axe because the boycott by the Democrats was a major factor in the action taken by the TRT. If the Democrats ran, the TRT would have not taken the illegal action they did. They were both complicit in the act.

It's also worth noting that the majority of the voters in the country are under the "pro-Thaksin" banner that's something the Democrats are going to have to live with. In over 50 years they have not shown a rats ass about the rural poor and the rural poor all know it. Few of them will believe the Democrats if they, all of a sudden. try to sweep them off their feet with words and promises or rework TRT policies. They have been there and know that they get nothing under the Democrats. Politics is still very polarized and unstable and maybe that's what the Junta wants at this stage.

LOL ... Luk ... what are you thinking? It is the Demo's fault that TRT broke the law? LOL

That is one of the funniest things I have seen in years! "It is YOUR FAULT that I ran out and broke election law! I know you didn't break it! But if you had not have done things LEGALLY then I would not have had to do things ILLEGALLY!"

I bet that type of reasoning would fly in any court in the world!

[sriracha john]

COMMENTARY by Veera Prateepchaikul

TRT needs leader with diplomatic nature

A halo was seen above Thai Rak Thai party headquarters the morning after the Constitution Tribunal handed down a death sentence to the party and sent its entire 111-member executive committee into deep freeze for five years. Optimistic party followers interpreted the natural phenomenon as a divine blessing and a signal that the party will rise up from the ashes in the future like the mythical phoenix.

But for the party's opponents, the halo might have signalled divine acknowledgement that the party's demise was deserved. Whatever the interpretations, Thai Rak Thai party members are in disarray and confused by the shock verdict which caught them with their pants down. Despite urging from their globe-trotting exiled leader Thaksin Shinawatra for them to stick together and fight on, the immediate concern of core members is how to keep their members together.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/04Jun2007_news19.php

[Jai Dee]

Interior Minister cautions provincial governors against undercurrents

The Minister of Interior Aree Wong-araya (อารีย์ วงศ์อารยะ) has cautioned provincial governors against undercurrents, especially after the verdict against Thai Rak Thai.

In response to Chairman of the Democrat Party Advisory Council Chuan Leekpai (ชวน หลีกภัย)’s concern over the undercurrent situations in regions, Mr. Aree is confident that chaos will not take place as he has instructed state authorities to lay out preventive measures. Movements of groups, especially pro-TRT, have yet been reported.

As for the rally blocking a Pattani (ปัตตานี) mosque, Mr. Aree says the demonstrators have already dissolved its rally. At the same time, he has shrugged off news claiming that the demonstrators are supported by Barisan Revolusi Nasional (BRN).

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 04 June 2007

[Plus]

I don't understand how the buck stops with Democrats.

By the same logic they wouldn't have boycotted if Thaksin didn't arbitrarily dissolved the parlament to serve HIS OWN personal runnings with the law and demonstrators.

I think I've typed it up a hundred times already - Thaksin's participation in Shin sale was a legal matter for the courts, not for the elections. Courts refused, people took to the streets.

Somehow people here confuse rule of law with rule of majority. Somehow people here think that 14 million voters/members make Thaksin innocent forever. Somehow people think that judicial arm is unnecessary - matters of guilt and innocence should be decided only in elections.

Then they call it democracy. ###### that - it's the jungle law, where might makes right, not democracy. It's a "democracy" of a white mob about to hang a black man - they've got the majority alright.

[Jai Dee]

2nd Army Area Command affirms no suspicious movements of people in Northeast

Commander of the 2nd Army Area Command, Lt.Gen.Sujit Sitthiprapha (สุจิตร สิทธิประภา) reports that the army has closely monitored movements of several organizations from the Northeast. Reports have alleged that these groups of people have planned to join demonstrations in Bangkok. The 2nd Army Area Command have cooperated with police officers and provincial administrative officials to create understandings among the people. The commander affirms no suspicious movement of people has taken place in the region.

The commander adds that provinces which the army has paid special attention to include Buri Ram, Udon Thani, Nakhon Ratchasima, and Si Sa Ket. The second army has set up checkpoints on roads to inspect groups of people heading to the capital to join demonstrations. The check points have also inspected drug trafficking and illegal immigration.

Lt.Gen.Sujit says further that the second army has prepared military officers to tackle rallies. The officers will be dispatched immediately if it receives orders from the commander-in-chief of the army.

The second army area commander also calls for people from 19 provinces in the Northeast to be united and do good things for His Majesty the King.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 04 June 2007

[Jai Dee]

CNS Chairman apologizes for introducing amnesty laws too quickly

The Chairman of the Council for National Security apologized to the Constitutional Court for proposing the implementation of amnesty laws at an inappropriate time.

Army Commander in Chief and Chairman of the Council for National Security, Gen Sonthi Boonyaratglin (สนธิ บุญยรัตกลิน), stated on the Siam Today television program on Channel 5 that the incident in which amnesty laws for former members of the Thai Rak Thai Party were proposed to the Constitutional Court was an entirely inappropriate action at the current time. Gen Sonthi affirmed that the proposal did not come from CNS members, though he declined to reveal the source of this idea.

The CNS Chairman publicly apologized to the Constitutional Court for bringing forth the proposal at an unsuitable time. Gen Sonthi admitted that the time is not right for amnesty laws to be introduced, but indicated that the government's working time-frame is limited and that efforts to bring about national reconciliation would have to be prompt.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 04 June 2007

[Jai Dee]

CDC Chairman believes NLA will disagree with the amnesty for 111 TRT executives

Chairman of the Constitution Drafting Committee (CDC), Sqn.Ldr.Prasong Soonsiri (ประสงค์ สุ่นศิริ), believes the National Legislation Assembly (NLA) will disagree if the amnesty for Thai Rak Thai’s 111 executives is proposed.

The Chairman of the Council for National Security (CNS) Gen. Sonthi Boonyaratglin (สนธิ บุญยรัตกลิน) has proposed amnesty for 111 TRT executives in an attempt to promote reconciliation.

As for the plans to revoke the 15th and 27th CNS announcements, CDC Chairman personally views the two announcements should not be lifted until political upheaval subsides.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 04 June 2007

[Jai Dee]

Deputy Prime Minister calls for all groups to cooperate

The Deputy Prime Minister indicates that it is time for all groups to cooperate in alleviating the nation's political crisis.

Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Social Development and Human Security, Mr. Paiboon Wattanasiritham (ไพบูลย์ วัฒนศิริธรรม), commented on the establishment of amnesty laws to former members of the Thai Rak Thai Party by stating that the time is right for all relevant groups to cooperate in resolving the nation's political crisis, resulting in a normal democracy, constitution, and elections.

The Deputy Prime Minister believes that the Prime Minister and responsible figures will arrive at a decision within 1-2 weeks in response to calls for the revokement of the 15th and 17th Announcements of the Council for Democratic Reform (CPR). Mr. Paiboon added that protesters who have demanded that the government solve their issues within June 24th should instead discuss their problems and work with officials to arrive at the best solution.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 04 June 2007

[chanchao]

The commander adds that provinces which the army has paid special attention to include Buri Ram, Udon Thani, Nakhon Ratchasima, and Si Sa Ket. The second army has set up checkpoints on roads to inspect groups of people heading to the capital to join demonstrations. The check points have also inspected drug trafficking and illegal immigration.

Shows how much freedom of assembly exists today in Thailand. People aren't free to travel to Bangkok apparently.

Somewhat related, look at this ranking of countries along a global 'peacefulness' index:

http://www.visionofhumanity.com/rankings/

Thailand is near the bottom (106 out of 121) in between Uganda and Zimbabwe.

That's just sad. (And yes I do realize Thaksin had a lot to do with the low ranking as well, but the military made it a lot worse).

And before anyone disagrees: This *IS* the international perception of Thailand currently.

Edited June 4, 2007 by chanchao

[ando]

2nd Army Area Command affirms no suspicious movements of people in Northeast

Commander of the 2nd Army Area Command, Lt.Gen.Sujit Sitthiprapha (สุจิตร สิทธิประภา) reports that the army has closely monitored movements of several organizations from the Northeast. Reports have alleged that these groups of people have planned to join demonstrations in Bangkok. The 2nd Army Area Command have cooperated with police officers and provincial administrative officials to create understandings among the people. The commander affirms no suspicious movement of people has taken place in the region.

The commander adds that provinces which the army has paid special attention to include Buri Ram, Udon Thani, Nakhon Ratchasima, and Si Sa Ket. The second army has set up checkpoints on roads to inspect groups of people heading to the capital to join demonstrations. The check points have also inspected drug trafficking and illegal immigration.

Lt.Gen.Sujit says further that the second army has prepared military officers to tackle rallies. The officers will be dispatched immediately if it receives orders from the commander-in-chief of the army.

The second army area commander also calls for people from 19 provinces in the Northeast to be united and do good things for His Majesty the King.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 04 June 2007

Well, that's freedom for you. Coral up political dissenters at gunpoint and prevent them from rallying to show the peoples objection to the junta. All on the grounds of promoting national unity and preventing conflict. And to make it more hypocritical, -- this comes from a military regime that snatched political power from a democratically elected government at the point of a gun. The poor, who make up the majority of the countries voters have effectively been disenfranchised from their own country. Cowered under martial law enforced by the ruling military dictators they do not have freedom of movement, they do not have freedom of assembly and now they do not have the freedom to vote for the only party that has given them some hope for the future. You can argue on legal technicalities and try to justify the current goings on as a means to an ends for the betterment of the country, but when you look at the big picture, all it really means is that the majority of the countries voters will have no voice and no choice in the upcoming (pseudo democratic) elections. This is more than just the ousting of a popular leader who is regarded as corrupt. This is more about containing the poor majority and keeping them down as a cheap labour force to the benefit of the countries elite.

[ColPyat]

EXTRACT

......Like Thaksin or not, and i don't, but people did vote for him. That is democracy....

To save space I have only pasted one sentence from your interesting and well debated message.

I wish to say that what you have said is well put and argued.

My only comments would be that just because Thailand politics has always been steeped in corruption that the concept to allow it to always continue (and probably get worse) is not possible IF the Thailand people truly wish to embrace the full extent of democracy.

With regard to your ONE sentence above,

I wish to mention that Yes people did vote for Thaksin and elect him, and would almost certainly have elected him again last time. As you rightly say "that is democracy" BUT unfortunately, rigging a General Election to get around the Thai 20% electoral rules laws in order to get re-elected and retain power has nothing to do with democracy. In fact it is quite the reverse, as it steals the Thai people's democratic rights to vote and and have their vote recognised in a "fair and legal" General Election.

Kind regards,

Dave

I don't see that TRT just rigged the election to get around the 20% rule. Because the opposition parties have not fielded any candidates and asked people to vote for the "No" option, the have found and used a legal loophole that did in fact amount to a boycott of the elections. This may have been a smart tactic in political power games, but it also was a major factor that brought up the present mess. After this it was predictable where we end up. The TRT buying up smaller parties was just a consequence, a desperate move to keep things within at least a resemblance of democracy. Of course it failed.

The political power game may have been won (so far), but what was existing of democracy was completely lost. The opposition and pressure groups such as the PAD have all along tried to force down a coup or other higher intervention to get rid of TRT, without having used any of the slower, but democratic means available to them. Means such as formulating policies to win elections. Can anyone here link me to policies the Democrats have formulated? There are none. The only policies they have had were a short one or two page statement of rather fluffy intentions.

What many people here in this discussion completely seem to miss here is, that what happens right now is only partially about supporting Thaksin or not. The junta has introduced certain institutions such as the ISOC, which make any future election irrelevant, because the power has been taken away from elected politicians. We have seen a huge setback to democratic development in Thailand, and every political party will be affected by this.

In November 2006 there would have been elections. There would have been ample time after the nullified elections to set up what can be considered as fair elections (can anyone please show me a impartial international report by a watchdog stating that TRT has won election through wide spread abuse. All i have seen stated that abuse happened but in general elections were fair). But then we had the coup, based on flimsy excuses, unproven allegations of widespread violence to be caused by TRT.

The latest downer has been the verdict. I am not qualified to comment on the legality of the verdict, only that the law has been used again against all common sense. Instead of healing the frictions so that the country can finally get ahead after nearly two years of crises, it has brought the situation to a new low.

Some here in this debate are not able to hide their triumph as the side they support has won another victory, blind though to the fact that this was a Pyrrhic victory right out of the text book. I don't see anything whatsoever to glee about - things are in a state of mess, the worst since the beginning of the present crises.

We have bigger frictions than ever, we have dictatorial institutions introduced with more far-reaching effects than anything that TRT has done. Some here ask to simply support the junta, and then things are going to be fine. That would be if the junta would not have re-introduced cold war remnants such as the ISOC, things that shoot way beyond the aim of getting rid of Thaksin. Be under no illusion - the coup was a convenient power grab by the traditional elites at an opportune time, in order to re-establish their power they have lost after '92, and to steer Thailand back to a course that is at most a "guided democracy".

This is all gonna end in tears.

Edited June 4, 2007 by ColPyat

[ando]

That is one of the funniest things I have seen in years! "It is YOUR FAULT that I ran out and broke election law! I know you didn't break it! But if you had not have done things LEGALLY then I would not have had to do things ILLEGALLY!"

I bet that type of reasoning would fly in any court in the world!

A bit like the generals reasoning behind the coup isn't it?

And I think you will find that world opinion indicates the coup was in fact illegal and against the interests of democracy.

[hammered]

The commander adds that provinces which the army has paid special attention to include Buri Ram, Udon Thani, Nakhon Ratchasima, and Si Sa Ket. The second army has set up checkpoints on roads to inspect groups of people heading to the capital to join demonstrations. The check points have also inspected drug trafficking and illegal immigration.

Shows how much freedom of assembly exists today in Thailand. People aren't free to travel to Bangkok apparently.

Somewhat related, look at this ranking of countries along a global 'peacefulness' index:

http://www.visionofhumanity.com/rankings/

Thailand is near the bottom (106 out of 121) in between Uganda and Zimbabwe.

That's just sad. (And yes I do realize Thaksin had a lot to do with the low ranking as well, but the military made it a lot worse).

And before anyone disagrees: This *IS* the international perception of Thailand currently.

I was recently in several European countries and that was most definitely not the perception of Thailand. People still think of Thailand as a beach or travel destination and most dont even know or care what kind of government Thailand has.

Apart from a few mentions of Mr. Thaksin in relations to buying a premier league side there was absolutely nothing in any national newspaper or magazine I saw. Oh and the stories on the Manchester City takeover always mentioned the corrupt ex-PM responsible for the death of several thousand people. Amazing that these western media outleys cant get their facts straight in spite of a multi-million dollar PR campaign by Mr. T.

And talking to anyone in the investment community it is all about get the elections back in place and as long as there are no totally out of control riots, doesnt matter who contests them or who wins or if there isnt much freedom, and the positive investnment climate will come back as investors get a government of politicians to deal with.

The reality is Thailand is not a big issue in the West. People and organizations in the west are more concerned about Turkey, Venezuela, Africa in genral and of course Iraq and Iran right now. That helps to keep Thailand out of mind for many.

[Plus]

I thought 10,000 people demonstrated at Sanam Luang last weekend?

No one stopped them.

If I rent a pickup truck from a friend to provide a free trip to Bangkok to a dozen of villagers that would also include a rally, that's not political dissent for them, it's a window of opportunity.

Mobs for hire do not make democracy.

Where's 300,000 TRT supporters who demonstrated last March? Disappeared. No more budget for them, no one pays for their "voices" anymore, no one sends the buses.

On the other hand - demonstrating against the junta will not bring any benefits to anyone, majority of people understand that

[ColPyat]

I thought 10,000 people demonstrated at Sanam Luang last weekend?

No one stopped them.

It seem that you have completely missed the constant and open reports about the military having set up check points along the roads to Bangkok, turning people who wan to join the demonstrations back.

[jdinasia]

The commander adds that provinces which the army has paid special attention to include Buri Ram, Udon Thani, Nakhon Ratchasima, and Si Sa Ket. The second army has set up checkpoints on roads to inspect groups of people heading to the capital to join demonstrations. The check points have also inspected drug trafficking and illegal immigration.

Shows how much freedom of assembly exists today in Thailand. People aren't free to travel to Bangkok apparently.

Somewhat related, look at this ranking of countries along a global 'peacefulness' index:

http://www.visionofhumanity.com/rankings/

Thailand is near the bottom (106 out of 121) in between Uganda and Zimbabwe.

That's just sad. (And yes I do realize Thaksin had a lot to do with the low ranking as well, but the military made it a lot worse).

And before anyone disagrees: This *IS* the international perception of Thailand currently.

I was recently in several European countries and that was most definitely not the perception of Thailand. People still think of Thailand as a beach or travel destination and most dont even know or care what kind of government Thailand has.

Apart from a few mentions of Mr. Thaksin in relations to buying a premier league side there was absolutely nothing in any national newspaper or magazine I saw. Oh and the stories on the Manchester City takeover always mentioned the corrupt ex-PM responsible for the death of several thousand people. Amazing that these western media outleys cant get their facts straight in spite of a multi-million dollar PR campaign by Mr. T.

And talking to anyone in the investment community it is all about get the elections back in place and as long as there are no totally out of control riots, doesnt matter who contests them or who wins or if there isnt much freedom, and the positive investnment climate will come back as investors get a government of politicians to deal with.

The reality is Thailand is not a big issue in the West. People and organizations in the west are more concerned about Turkey, Venezuela, Africa in genral and of course Iraq and Iran right now. That helps to keep Thailand out of mind for many.

I was in three states in the USA ... not the impression there for sure! but it is a clever attempt to push the concept that people think the way a website does

read the website ... funny stuff!

Edited June 4, 2007 by jdinasia