The Constitutional Tribunal Disbands Thai Rak Thai - Election cheating

[tettyan]

// double post deleted //

Edited June 5, 2007 by tettyan

[tettyan]

Please take up this line of private discussion by Personal Message... not publically in the News Forum.

Thank you.

Please remove my post that you're referring to.

If possible, please also redact the quote of my post from your reply.

Thanks.

[ColPyat]

The history has already been written... it's in the past. People know what's what. Attempting to rewrite it is unproductive and a waste of time.

This is a very mistaken understanding of history, one which automatically leads to wrong conclusions.

History is not something that is fixed once written (usually by the victors), but something that has to be constantly re-examined in light of new facts and information.

Presently there are many fascinating new facts published about Thai history, especially very recent history. Missing out on this because a believe that "it has been written and in the past" means missing out on the present and future.

[John K]

Per post #663 on page 45

I am very curious how the Thais in Isaan will view this new Suwat party. If memory serves the person they seem to like is Thaksin. The members of the TRT were members of other parties before the TRT and not particularly in favor Isaan policies. Can someone please verify this as true. Are there any posters from Isaan that can place light on this?

[hammered]

Per post #663 on page 45

I am very curious how the Thais in Isaan will view this new Suwat party. If memory serves the person they seem to like is Thaksin. The members of the TRT were members of other parties before the TRT and not particularly in favor Isaan policies. Can someone please verify this as true. Are there any posters from Isaan that can place light on this?

One thing is for sure Suwat wil be popular in Korat and his people (the unbanned ones) will win most if not all seats whatever party they are in. Similarly Phinij in parts of the northern Isaan. Much more than that is hard to say.

[John K]

I am just wondering if this is a cart without a horse.

[ColPyat]

Per post #663 on page 45

I am very curious how the Thais in Isaan will view this new Suwat party. If memory serves the person they seem to like is Thaksin. The members of the TRT were members of other parties before the TRT and not particularly in favor Isaan policies. Can someone please verify this as true. Are there any posters from Isaan that can place light on this?

One thing is for sure Suwat wil be popular in Korat and his people (the unbanned ones) will win most if not all seats whatever party they are in. Similarly Phinij in parts of the northern Isaan. Much more than that is hard to say.

Which sadly means that we are right on the track back to what led us to Thaksin in the first place.

[rken]

New Thai Political Party Launched

Not without internal troubles.

Nakhon Nowhere (TNA), As Thailand enters a dark period of uncertainty following landmark rulings that disbanded several political parties, a new hope rose today in the form of a bunch of bedraggled foreigners who have launched a new political party "FArang Rak Thai" or "FART" for short.

Campaigning under the slogan "FART, for a better Thailand", the new party promises to remove the stink from Thai politics with a new style of governing which came about after marathon debate within the party ranks that had many insiders afraid that the motion would not pass.

"It was a squeaker" said one member, "At first we were afraid we would not pass anything, but now that it's over it feels like we have the wind at our backs"

Other members, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said that rumblings and internal pressure within the party had been relieved with a few discreet expulsions.

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

[rken]

coup is needed to restore democracy

This coup, as with all coups, was designed solely to overthrow the government. The fact that the pre-existing democracy was less than perfect does not excuse the military take over of a democratic government. The forgone conclusion now is that in the next election, the previous ruling party will have been removed and the former opposition will gain power, --- against the wishes of the majority of the countries voters. That is not democracy. That is a perversion of democracy, and is what it is seen as by the majority of Thai voters and the vast majority of the worlds political spectators.

Ah contrar my good friend:

Look at the position Venezuala is in. An elected president has just band the most popular television network in the country. So much for that democracy. All democracies are not created equal.

[younghusband]

Agreed, it is the current situation worthy of discussion...

These discussions regarding the Democrat boycott were all held a year ago and nothing new has been added nor has anything changed, despite as A_Traveller's accurately appraises,

"Keep repeating something does not make it true."

Because of consistent misinterpretation of history we will not understand the current situation.

The history has already been written... it's in the past. People know what's what. Attempting to rewrite it is unproductive and a waste of time.

This is a profoundly mistaken and short sighted view.The present can only be understood by examining and re-examining the past.The poster's error is to think of history as static whereas in fact it is and needs to be constantly reinterpreted so that we understand where we are and where we are going.By way of example it is impossible to understand the dynamic events of our time - the fall of the USSR,globalisation, the rise of China and India,Al-Quaeda's strategy.....etc etc without a profound knowledge of history.The precise same criteria applies to the current crisis in Thailand, but as important as an understanding of history is the ability to subject information we receive to the scrutiny of a sceptical and questioning intelligence.

[Plus]

Unfortunately this re-examining the history often means banging about the same old ideas that didn't hold water a year ago, and conveniently omittng facts that didn't/don't fit.

In this Democrat/Thaksin/election case absolutely nothing has been added for any re-examination, for example. Instead we are presented with selection of [personal] opinions to support a notion that Democrats are responsible for TRT's illegal activities and for subsequent coup. Opinions of millions of people who supported the boycott and who voted No is not even mentioned, let alone counted or accepted as possibly correct.

This has nothing to do with history, only with spin one puts on it. I concure with John - those who were there know what the deal was and are amused at what debts people would go to reinvent the history. And it hasn't even been a full year yet.

[younghusband]

Unfortunately this re-examining the history often means banging about the same old ideas that didn't hold water a year ago, and conveniently omittng facts that didn't/don't fit.

In this Democrat/Thaksin/election case absolutely nothing has been added for any re-examination, for example. Instead we are presented with selection of [personal] opinions to support a notion that Democrats are responsible for TRT's illegal activities and for subsequent coup. Opinions of millions of people who supported the boycott and who voted No is not even mentioned, let alone counted or accepted as possibly correct.

This has nothing to do with history, only with spin one puts on it. I concure with John - those who were there know what the deal was and are amused at what debts people would go to reinvent the history. And it hasn't even been a full year yet.

This isn't really an example of the questioning and critical intelligence I was looking for! Lighten up Plus this is an internet forum discussion group where the whole point is to bat ideas and views about.There's no point in getting steamed up at members contributions which have obviously been catalysed by the recent court judgement.Like it or not there will always be different versions of the same event or series of events.Your role is to contribute thoughtfully, which I agree you often do, not to start fuming when people express points of view different from your own.

There's no such thing as objective history, and if you want to put it this way, yes, there is always spin whether in your version or my version or someone else's.And by the way I don't think anyone -certainly not me- is blaming the Democrats for the TRT shenanigans.I just think that we should recognise the boycott was a sharp political trick although as you say there was a franchise which supported it.But the Thai majority view was thwarted as Abhisit etc fully understand, and are determined to remedy (but let's defer judgement on that)

[Plus]

This isn't really an example of the questioning and critical intelligence I was looking for! Lighten up Plus this is an internet forum discussion group where the whole point is to bat ideas and views about.

...

There's no such thing as objective history

Objective history might be techinically impossible to achieve but it's an ideal everyone should strive for. You can't have both critical intelligence and people peddling their views with blatant disregard for any objectivity.

[lukamar]

Look at the position Venezuala is in. An elected president has just band the most popular television network in the country. So much for that democracy. All democracies are not created equal.

He closed the station after Globovision encouraged an attempt on Chavez's life. There are few country leaders that would let that go on and Chavez is no different. Relating that to Thailand during the coup thee military had armed guards posted in all media outlets instantly to make sure that did not happen to them and more recently the military closed radio stations because they got a call from the ex-PM. The difference is Chavez was elected and the military was not.

[jdinasia]

Chavez was elected .... Hitler was elected ... Saddam was elected .... oi!

[A_Traveller]

Chavez was elected [Yes].... Hitler was elected [No, Hitler never had the popular vote to be 'elected' Chancellor of Germany, he was given the position as part of a web of deals made by Von Papen in 32//33 against a background of a series of elections to the Reichstag] ... Saddam was elected [Not quite, if memory serves, Saddam Hussein was elected to his positions by a closed vote of the Baath party, after a coup, not by a general election. These came later with him as the only candidate polling 100% of the vote] .... oi!

Regards

[lukamar]

Unfortunately this re-examining the history often means banging about the same old ideas that didn't hold water a year ago, and conveniently omittng facts that didn't/don't fit.

Historians and others are always reexamining history. They reexamine biblical history, natural history, military history, archaeological history among others - including political and judicial history. History is best reexamined some time after it happens as it can be reexamined with more objectivity and it's very often changed because of this reexamination..

[lukamar]

Chavez was elected .... Hitler was elected ... Saddam was elected .... oi!

You forgot Thaksin was elected. Not withstanding that, the Thai Military still was not....

[jdinasia]

lol ... pardon Hitler was elected but not as Chancellor ... for that post he was constitutionally appointed in a Democratic country

Saddam was elected ... many more have been ... the point is Democracy is not the be all and end all answer

after all Thaksin was democratically elected then tore down the very institutions that protect democracy in Thailand in effect making himself an elected dictator

[lukamar]

after all Thaksin was democratically elected then tore down the very institutions that protect democracy in Thailand in effect making himself an elected dictator

And your point is... the military which was not democratically elected didn't tear down the institutions that protect democracy they scrapped them and now you have a non elected dictator. You can vote out an elected dictatorship but you have a heck of a job getting rid of a non elected one, it's going to take another decade to rid the system of the military glove as they have managed to wiggle their way into every part of the Thai bureaucracy once again. Much much faster than Thaksin managed to do it.

I would think that someone with all that self proclaimed schooling would have a more objective eye, just goes to show you can't learn some things from a book..

[jdinasia]

after all Thaksin was democratically elected then tore down the very institutions that protect democracy in Thailand in effect making himself an elected dictator

And your point is... the military which was not democratically elected didn't tear down the institutions that protect democracy they scrapped them and now you have a non elected dictator. You can vote out an elected dictatorship but you have a heck of a job getting rid of a non elected one, it's going to take another decade to rid the system of the military glove as they have managed to wiggle their way into every part of the Thai bureaucracy once again. Much much faster than Thaksin managed to do it.

I would think that someone with all that self proclaimed schooling would have a more objective eye, just goes to show you can't learn some things from a book..

LOL ... no I just don't buy into your misguided belief that only democracies can be good! Voting a dictator like Thaksin out of office would have been nigh on impossible if he hadn't screwed up and disbanded the parlaiment! Thankfully he did which combined with the Shin sale and his other actions to decrease democracy in Thailand led to the current mess!

as far as 'wriggling into every part of the Thai Bureaucracy' they were not that far out of it ... but we will have to wait and see how far in they actually get this time when we have a new constitution and elected leaders! Cry all you want but all that you ever said about dealing with Thaksin can be dealt with regarding the Junta after we have a new elected government. Don't like the constitution that comes out next? Then reform it! etc etc

My objectivity is fine ... living here and being with Thai people here from MANY backgrounds on a regular basis sees to that!

[farang prince]

In some parts of the world we have the "Golden Rule." He who has the gold, rules. When is the last time America elected a poor person as President?

In other parts of the world, we have the "Leaden Rule." He who has lead bullets rules. Guess we are in that phase here in LOS.

[ColPyat]

This has nothing to do with history, only with spin one puts on it. I concure with John - those who were there know what the deal was and are amused at what debts people would go to reinvent the history. And it hasn't even been a full year yet.

Those who were there...yes.

I do quote from papers and books from people "who were there". They were there to research history and not just being on the sidelines, and debating opinions on the net. Funny though that all papers i have quoted here do come to very different conclusions than you.

I have been there, and i am still there. While you people are there reading news in the papers, my curiosity actually drives me to go to the different demonstrations and events, be they the previous PAD demonstrations, the campsites of the Caravan of the Poor, TRT events, or now, post coup - the demonstrations of the different groups such as the Sept. 19th Network, The Social Forum, Nok Pilab Khao, the Saturday group, the Just Say No Group, PTV. I do look for ways to communicate with the different factions, and also with the security forces.

I do that because what is presented to me by the popular medias does not exactly fulfill my intellectual curiosity, and i want to know more about what is happening in the country i chose to live.

I do very much reject the insulting accusation of re-inventing history by people who have never done more than sitting on the fence.

[larvidchr]

In some parts of the world we have the "Golden Rule." He who has the gold, rules. When is the last time America elected a poor person as President?

In other parts of the world, we have the "Leaden Rule." He who has lead bullets rules. Guess we are in that phase here in LOS.

Sorry just saw this one, made me

[lukamar]

Cry all you want but all that you ever said about dealing with Thaksin can be dealt with regarding the Junta after we have a new elected government. Don't like the constitution that comes out next? Then reform it! etc etc

Not so JD. Even after a new election the Generals still control the GUNS and the new elected MP's will all know that.. Just try and prosecute them and see how fast you have another coup and another scrapped constitution. There will be no reform that the military does not want for the foreseeable future, don't you understand that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Possibly you should put your objectivity aside, you seem to be tripping over it or the lack of it.

[jdinasia]

Cry all you want but all that you ever said about dealing with Thaksin can be dealt with regarding the Junta after we have a new elected government. Don't like the constitution that comes out next? Then reform it! etc etc

Not so JD. Even after a new election the Generals still control the GUNS and the new elected MP's will all know that.. Just try and prosecute them and see how fast you have another coup and another scrapped constitution. There will be no reform that the military does not want for the foreseeable future, don't you understand that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Possibly you should put your objectivity aside, you seem to be tripping over it or the lack of it.

I suppose I should cry about the name-calling ... but I won't The Generals had the guns before ... in fact they always have.

Who has talked about prosecuting them? If democratic rule is returned to Thailand without blood in the streets, I think they will in the end be hailed as heroes that looked out for the country. If, on the other hand, they don't then they will eventually be thought of by Thai people the way some of you pro-Thaksin folks think of them!

[ColPyat]

Who has talked about prosecuting them? If democratic rule is returned to Thailand without blood in the streets, I think they will in the end be hailed as heroes that looked out for the country. If, on the other hand, they don't then they will eventually be thought of by Thai people the way some of you pro-Thaksin folks think of them!

How will democratic rule be returned to Thailand if the ISOC - the most powerful mechanism on all internal security matters - is not going to be dismantled the way how it has been set up now by the military - beyond parliamentary scrutiny, and no checks and balances other than the Army Commander will reach it?

What we will get at most is a "guided" democracy, a step back of 20 years.

[John K]

Meanwhile in what is getting to be totally predictable arrogance and going back on their word...

Ex-TRT members waste no time in regrouping

Just hours after the Cabinet lifted bans on political-party activity former members of the dissolved Thai Rak Thai Party formed a new group they say will join anti-junta protests from today.

The group calling itself Pro-Thaksin Anti-Dictatorship Group consists of former party members, most from the Northeast.

Former Roi Et member of Parliament Nirand Namuang-rak said people outside of politics had joined, too.

He will hold a news conference today to introduce the new group. "After that, we will join the PTV rally at Sanam Luang."

The banned satellite-television station began a daily protest last week and vows to remain at Sanam Luang until the junta hands over power. The rally has failed to attract widespread support.

Nirand said the group was formed to cater to the demands of people suffering under the Surayud government and the Council for National Security (CNS).

The group will collect signatures of those still supporting the former prime minister, he said. He is optimistic of getting 14 million people to sign.

Both the Cabinet and CNS agreed to officially lift the ban yesterday. The Council for Democratic Reform imposed it immediately after the September coup. It became the CNS.

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont said CNS chairman Sonthi Boonyaratglin attended yesterday's Cabinet meeting. The ending of the ban is effective immediately.

The same order containing the activity ban included the suspension of the registration of political parties. The Council of State will now study that over the next two weeks.

Surayud said it needed an act of Parliament to be amended. The Cabinet might discuss such legislation next week ahead of sending it to the National Legislative Assembly. He will ask the assembly to expedite endorsement.

Right now permission for political activities extends to existing parties only, not unregistered parties. Therefore, former members of the dissolved Thai Rak Thai Party remain excluded.

The government cannot override the Constitution Tribunal's ruling which revoked the voting rights of 111 former Thai Rak Thai executives, he said.

Surayud did not think loosening restrictions would backfire and see politicians attacking the government and the CNS. It will open political participation for the people, he said.

Nevertheless, Government Spokesman Yongyuth Mayalarp said the meeting did not discuss lifting or amending post-coup order No 27.

Sonthi said there would not be any amendment at the moment. Loosened political restrictions will relieve tension and improve the political climate and at the same time show the government and the CNS are sincere about holding elections and not clinging to power, he said.

Meanwhile, Prime Minister's Office Minister Thirapat Serirangsan said amending No 27 should not take longer than three weeks.

He said the government lifted the activity ban to prove to international critics Thailand was on the road back to democracy. At the same time it is maintaining national security.

A Bangkok University Bangkok Poll released yesterday showed 58.8 per cent of 1,032 respondents agreed with the activity relaxation and party registration permission. The survey was conducted on Saturday to Sunday in and around Bangkok.

No 27 includes an amendment to No 15 declaring No 15 effective until a Cabinet resolution or law states otherwise.

It added the electoral-process-ban penalties for executives of dissolved political parties.

It stated any politician banned from the electoral process before September last year remained banned.

Source: The Nation

[lukamar]

Who has talked about prosecuting them? If democratic rule is returned to Thailand without blood in the streets, I think they will in the end be hailed as heroes that looked out for the country. If, on the other hand, they don't then they will eventually be thought of by Thai people the way some of you pro-Thaksin folks think of them!

Let me get this straight JD... One one hand you think that Thaksin and his group should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law for alleged illegal activities that they may or may not have done while in power and then on the other you don't think the military did anything wrong by overthrowing the legal government at gunpoint which was an illegal act under the 1997 constitution that was in effect at that time. I think you may have to rethink your moral values because sometimes doing the right thing is totally wrong. That goes for both Thaksin and the Junta. You need to address the way you look at right and wrong, it's not like black and white.

Before you jump on your high horse, you are the one that paints everyone that does not agree with you as Pro-Thaksin, I'm Pro-Poor and I don't really give a ###### who the party is that helps them better their lot in life. I'm sure you Anti-Thaksin Pro-Junta Folks , and I don't know you from squat, drive a car that is worth way more than a rural poor family makes in 10 years, I know I do. There is a huge inequity between rich and poor in Thailand and at some point the rich are going to have to address that issue. I'd rather have a Thaksin who gave something back to the poor, no matter what his motives, than a military government that cut the rice subsidy to poor rural farmers as soon as they got in power. It's nice being rich in Thailand but it's no wonder so many of them hate most of us and wish we would leave.

[sriracha john]

Hey... there's lots to keep these guys busy for the next 5 years....

Sport could be haven for ex-TRT chiefs

The Constitution Tribunal last week disbanded the Thai Rak Thai party and banned its 111 executives from politics for five years for electoral fraud. Understandably, a large number of the suspended politicians have vowed to fight for ''justice'' while former party leader Thaksin has urged his followers to continue working for the country and the people. Critics fear that their struggle could worsen the country's chaotic politics and staggering economy and call on them to accept the ruling. Five years is not too long. They should wait for their time to make a comeback.

Most of the banned politicians have their own business or a job outside politics so they will not be jobless during the period. If they do not have anything to do, then they may switch to sports so that the people will not forget them. A number of the former Thai Rak Thai executives have been on the executive committees of sports associations and should be able work more actively in this field. Among the banned Thai Rak Thai executives, four are presidents of sports associations _ Thaksin (the Thai Professional Golf Association), Suwat Liptapanlop (the Lawn Tennis Association of Thailand), Pongpol Adireksarn (the Shooting Association of Thailand) and Pimol Srivikorn (the Taekwondo Association of Thailand).

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Sports/06Jun2007_sport21.php

======================================

too bad Sudarat lost the election for the President of the Croquet Association of Thailand.... but then again, there's always eating to keep her pre-occupied during her banishment.