sand issue

[sticky]

Lately every time my pool starts up it spits filter sand out of the outlets , about a half liter or so.

One pool guy said the sand level was too low and added more sand. The next fellow suggested several

backwashings.

Neither of these suggestions were helpful.

Any ideas out there?

Cheer

Sticky

[carlyai]

Don't really know, but some how the sand is getting into places it shouldn't be.

If it were mine I'd want to take the top off and have a look. I know that after a while the sand channels and the water runs through these channels, so now might be a good time to take the top off, wetvac the sand out and replace it with echoglass (genuine).

I did that to mine and I think it filters better and saves on backwashes.

But I never had sand in the return.

[Saanim]

There can be some cracks in the piping system inside the filter, or something wrong with the valve. If something is wrong inside it will not be better with any wonder filter media.

Did you check the bottom under the pump basket for sand? 

Or the pump pressure is very strong?   

 

[carlyai]

5 minutes ago, Saanim said:

There can be some cracks in the piping system inside the filter, or something wrong with the valve. If something is wrong inside it will not be better with any wonder filter media.

Did you check the bottom under the pump basket for sand? 

Or the pump pressure is very strong?   

 

I said take the top off and check it.

Could well be the multiport valve switch.

After it checks out, because sand channels (if you take the top off a sand filter you can see the little channels the water flows down.)

My experience Echoglass does a better job than sand.

You are right, no wonder media is going to fix it if something is broken. Off course you would fix the problem first.

[Bagwain]

This is a common problem!

How old is the media? My bet it is stuffed! You won't tell by looking at it. As the powdered up sand is in the mix!

Sand they supply here last 18 months at best.

Everytime a native goes in a pump room they do a backwash! This quickens the degridation of the media.

Even silicate sand only has a life of 5 yrs with normal once per month backwashing!

 

As Carlyai says "Eco Clear" recycled plate glass is the go. Fantastic results and last 3 times longer than silicate sand!

Same price as silicate sand as well.

It's that good it look like no water in the pool at night! 

See attached brochure! 

 

Eco Clear.pdf

[SantiSuk]

16 hours ago, Bagwain said:

This is a common problem!

How old is the media? My bet it is stuffed! You won't tell by looking at it. As the powdered up sand is in the mix!

Sand they supply here last 18 months at best.

Everytime a native goes in a pump room they do a backwash! This quickens the degridation of the media.

Even silicate sand only has a life of 5 yrs with normal once per month backwashing!

 

As Carlyai says "Eco Clear" recycled plate glass is the go. Fantastic results and last 3 times longer than silicate sand!

Same price as silicate sand as well.

It's that good it look like no water in the pool at night! 

See attached brochure! 

 

Eco Clear.pdf 854.13 kB · 0 downloads

Salesman talk. I disagree with your assertion that sand in Thailand lasts only 18 months. I've used pool sand supplied by Swimming Pools Thailand, and on initial pool construction by a contractor to Astral Pools.

 

3 fillings - lasted about 4 years each with no visible signs of deterioration, no problem and only replaced because other work was required or 4 years seemed to be broadly a recommended lifespan.

 

Now have Zelbrite for the last 3 months. That's fine too. Too early to say whether it is superior to pool sand.

 

Generic building sand may fit your 18 months claim, but who would use that knowingly?

 

 

 

[Bagwain]

48 minutes ago, SantiSuk said:

Salesman talk. I disagree with your assertion that sand in Thailand lasts only 18 months. I've used pool sand supplied by Swimming Pools Thailand, and on initial pool construction by a contractor to Astral Pools.

 

3 fillings - lasted about 4 years each with no visible signs of deterioration, no problem and only replaced because other work was required or 4 years seemed to be broadly a recommended lifespan.

 

Now have Zelbrite for the last 3 months. That's fine too. Too early to say whether it is superior to pool sand.

 

Generic building sand may fit your 18 months claim, but who would use that knowingly?

 

 

 

Another backyard expert generalising!

Not sales talk but 30 yrs experience with 17 in Thailand.

You didn't read the post properly! 

I have solved this problem dozens of times by changing the media!

There are 2 grades of sand available sea or river. Washed & unwashed.

 

Zelbrite is Zeolite and is superior to sand and lasts about twice as long as sand It takes out metals and does a finer filtration! However being cage like it does clog up if the make up water has a lot of metal in it! Then it needs recharging or replacing! It's on par in the short term with "Eco Clea" and the same price!

 

"Eco Clear" takes out metals, does not clog up, doesn't hold Biofilm as does the others and last 3 times as long! 

Read the brochure on the original post! 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Bagwain

[Saanim]

1 hour ago, SantiSuk said:

Salesman talk. I disagree with your assertion that sand in Thailand lasts only 18 months. I've used pool sand supplied by Swimming Pools Thailand, and on initial pool construction by a contractor to Astral Pools.

 

3 fillings - lasted about 4 years each with no visible signs of deterioration, no problem and only replaced because other work was required or 4 years seemed to be broadly a recommended lifespan.

 

Now have Zelbrite for the last 3 months. That's fine too. Too early to say whether it is superior to pool sand.

 

Generic building sand may fit your 18 months claim, but who would use that knowingly?

 

 

 

Welcome to the backyard club ????

 

I have filled in a river sand, washed and sorted per sizes as made by village company supplying sand to people for filtering their primitive filters of ground water, bag for 60 Baht (falang price).

 

It's (3 sizes) in my backyard filter (from Global House) more than 10 years with regular backwashing, no sign that it needs to be exchanged. Do the rivers exchange their sand after zillions years?

 

Whether a zeolite, zelbrite, crush windows, you name it, would do a better job? Anybody made a comparison over years? But perhaps, no problem in pools with "kitchen tiles"...  ????

 

 

   

[Bagwain]

5 hours ago, SwimmingPoolsThailand said:

 

If  sand or other debris is returning  to  the  pool, the first  and most  obvious item to  check is the condition  of the spider gasket  in  the multi-port  valve. Easily replaced by anyone who  knows how to  use a screwdriver. If that  doesn't  work, then possibly  the laterals (the pipes with  the filter slits in  the bottom of the filter) are damaged. These slots are not much wider than a human hair. Replacement laterals for Emaux filters are in  stock in  Thailand. The availability of spare parts of other brands is not  known. 

 

Full details about  Zelbrite can be found here. There is no  comparison between its performance and that of recycled crushed bottle glass and window offcuts -  which is very basically sand: silicon dioxide, or SiO₂, usually in the form of quartz and containing around 70% silica. It accounts for around 90% of manufactured glass. Zelbrite can last easily up to  12 years. (we have reports from  some of our pool-build customers who  are still  using  it after 15 years, but  that  is not  really  recommended). Zelbrite does not clump or form wormholes. It  should not be used by pools using  ionizers (often installed by  the manufacturers of cheap fibreglass pools) because its filtration properties are so good it will even filter out  the nano-silver and copper ions.

Zelbrite is a brand name, Zeolite is the product. (Best is from Straya)

I used Zeolite extensively for quite awhile. (It has many usefull atributes and uses)

However I found out the hardway with water with high metal (Mostly Iron) that it has issues very quickly.

"Eco Clear" recycled plate glass (As appossed to bottle glass) is superior in many ways.

Most being it doesn't have issues with clogging up. Not just pools but also water filtration in general!

Both being comparable in price "Eco" wins all the way!

 

 

 

 

[unheard]

On 12/22/2021 at 2:52 PM, Bagwain said:

"Eco Clear" recycled plate glass is the go. Fantastic results and last 3 times longer than silicate sand!

Same price as silicate sand as well.

Same price?

I see it being priced at 3x as much as the silica sand, 25kg bags.

[Bagwain]

3 hours ago, unheard said:

Same price?

I see it being priced at 3x as much as the silica sand, 25kg bags.

Real silicate sand is basically the same price as Eco & Zeolite.

Depends who you are getting it from!

Silicate sand is imported! 

 

[unheard]

1 hour ago, Bagwain said:

Real silicate sand is basically the same price as Eco & Zeolite.

Depends who you are getting it from!

Silicate sand is imported!

Hmm

here's the AstralPool branded sand:

 

https://www.winwinpoolshop.com/en/product/15004-11286/silica-sand-25-kgbag

 

here's EcoClear Glass:

 

https://www.winwinpoolshop.com/en/product/18483-13755/echoclear-glass-media-for-sand-filters-coarse-25-kg

 

Are you saying the linked AstraPool branded silica sand is an inferior product?

A sincere question.

Edited December 24, 2021 by unheard

[Bagwain]

15 hours ago, unheard said:

Hmm

here's the AstralPool branded sand:

 

https://www.winwinpoolshop.com/en/product/15004-11286/silica-sand-25-kgbag

 

here's EcoClear Glass:

 

https://www.winwinpoolshop.com/en/product/18483-13755/echoclear-glass-media-for-sand-filters-coarse-25-kg

 

Are you saying the linked AstraPool branded silica sand is an inferior product?

A sincere question.

Good find.

The places I can sourse silica sand & Eco are the same at around 550 p/25 kg. (So my supplier for Eco is cheaper)

Problem with 25kg is most freight companies only will deal with 20kg!

Eco is streets ahead for better filtration & life.

You will notice the explination of benefits for the "Eco" in the link but none with the silica sand! 

They also claim the "Eco" is Australian made which it's not. It is just bagged in Australia.

The best Silica sand does come from Australia.

 

 

[unheard]

"Lately every time my pool starts up it spits filter sand out of the outlets"

 

Sounds like you have a pump that is oversized relative to your filter's flow rate,

which led to the filter's failure.

[Bagwain]

5 hours ago, unheard said:

"Lately every time my pool starts up it spits filter sand out of the outlets"

 

Sounds like you have a pump that is oversized relative to your filter's flow rate,

which led to the filter's failure.

If it has worked for awhile already, that is not the issue.

From experience, I can bet 80/90% it is worn sand! 

[Rimmer]

A baiting post leading to a personal attack has been removed

[Jai Dee]

Several argumentative and petty bickering posts have been removed as well.

[carlyai]

17 hours ago, Saanim said:

<snip>

I fidn't see Bagwain"s answer, but he knows what he's talking about.

This is what I know from my experience.

If you take the top off a sand filter (mine been running for 4 odd years, 6 hr per day) and get a flashlight you can see the sand with lots of channels like veins in it. The water tends to run through these channels and I suppose wears out the sand (guess makes the sand beads smooth or round so they don't work as a filter as well).

My filter still worked but it can't have been working as well as when the sand first installed.

Evidently most of the sand for filters in Thailand is the wrong type of sand also.

I replaced the sand with Ecoglass and have reduced my backwash frequency and also reduced the time filtering to 4hr/day just cause of the cost of running a 2 HP pump for 6hr/day.

[Bagwain]

8 hours ago, carlyai said:

<snip>

Thanks carlyai.

You answer is correct. However the channels can be caused by other issues as well.

In the profession it's called "Channeling" (Not the entity type) Bahahaha

Most of the sand in Thailand is river sand with minimal quartz. So it does break down quickly. Mostly caused by backwashing. In a lot of cases every time a native goes into a pump room they do a backwash which in turn reduces the life of the media! Typically a domestic pool only needs a backwash monthly. This obviously comes down to bather load and environmental conditions!

 

[Saanim]

5 hours ago, carlyai said:

I fidn't see Bagwain"s answer, but he knows what he's talking about.

This is what I know from my experience.

If you take the top off a sand filter (mine been running for 4 odd years, 6 hr per day) and get a flashlight you can see the sand with lots of channels like veins in it. The water tends to run through these channels and I suppose wears out the sand (guess makes the sand beads smooth or round so they don't work as a filter as well).

My filter still worked but it can't have been working as well as when the sand first installed.

Evidently most of the sand for filters in Thailand is the wrong type of sand also.

I replaced the sand with Ecoglass and have reduced my backwash frequency and also reduced the time filtering to 4hr/day just cause of the cost of running a 2 HP pump for 6hr/day.

It's different from my experience. Just recently I saw the sand in my filter when exchanging the 6-way valve, seeing nothing changed over 15 years, nothing wrong with the sand. Perhaps since I backwash quite frequently, mostly once a week, sometimes even within few days after a heavy storm brought a lot of dirt into the water.

 

My backwashing is often connected with vacuum cleaning, sucking the dirt though the filter, not directly into drain, thus saving precious water. At 60,000 L pool the waste of the drain water at each floor sucking would not be negligible. Sometimes, prior to vacuuming completion I see the filter is getting overwhelmed, recognizing that by the lower sound of the water flow at water chute. Then, a short backwash to release the dirt in filter, then completing the vacuuming. Afterwards, the final backwashing combined with short rinsing that helps to discover hidden unwashed portions, properly rewashing the sand filling.  

 

A backwashing once a month? To force the crystal clear water through the dirt collected in the filter over a month? Do we filter our coffee through a second-hand filter?  Or vacuuming our carpet rather through a dirty paper bag instead of a new one?

 

 

 

 

 

[unheard]

8 hours ago, Saanim said:

Perhaps since I backwash quite frequently, mostly once a week, sometimes even within few days after a heavy storm brought a lot of dirt into the water.

That's what is recommended as a back washing interval (once a week) in a very informative video posted below.

[unheard]

On 12/23/2021 at 2:45 PM, Bagwain said:

"Eco Clear" recycled plate glass (As appossed to bottle glass) is superior in many ways.

Most being it doesn't have issues with clogging up. Not just pools but also water filtration in general!

But the glass media has issues with back washing as mentioned in the video (at 35 min.)

"Most crushed glass on the market is highly contaminated from the start and doesn't back wash well."

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37cVJRs6z2Q

[Bagwain]

Ignorance is strong in a lot of people!

As they say here "Up to You"

I can't be bothered with backyard experts!

 

All I do is offer my well earned 30+ yrs experience with both high end commercial pools and & now many dozens of domestic pools! (Hands on)

 

Disagree and try and prove me wrong after 1 backyard pool and or behind a keyboard - I don't CARE! Bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Bagwain

[daveAustin]

On 12/22/2021 at 1:09 AM, sticky said:

One pool guy said the sand level was too low and added more sand.

High sand level could cause it, not low. Not rinsing after backwashing, cracked lateral/hub bleed line (though it’d be constant), perished spider gasket are typically culprits, and of course if some of the media was worn as bagwain suggests. 

[Saanim]

2 hours ago, daveAustin said:

Not rinsing after backwashing,

Not my experience. Many times in past I found that the 6-way valve has not closed properly and the water was partly coming out into drain. Then, turning around the valve and re-positioning until the gasket was sitting properly, sometimes repeatedly. 

 

Later I found that this is caused by an air bubble after the backwashing that needs to be pushed out, hindering the gasket to sit properly. Very easy remedy to rinse shortly, then it never happens.  Once doing that I even no longer need to look out whether any water is discharging.

 

I can imagine when many installations are neatly made with concealed water discharge directly into an outlet, not seeing the water.  Then, as I had read many times, people are crying "I am loosing water", advised: "exchange the valve".