10,000 Anti-coup Demonstrators Expected At Sanam Luang Rally

[A_Traveller]

scrapping the rice subsidies

I was under the impression that the subsidy had been reduced by $15 USD a Tonne, not scrapped. Am I in error?

Regards

[Johpa]

it is amazing how many of you clowns are convinced that Thai people are anti-junta. Do you NOT realize that TRT supporters did not finish grade school, do not read, do not understand politics and are being paid to come to bangkok to protest, the same way they were paid to vote in the first place??

Spot on.

So we perhaps have two supporters of Sonthi Limthonngkul who believe the nonsense that everyone amongst the rural populace is uneducated. Or perhaps they are a bit delusional in regards to the quality of a Thai secondary education.

There are plenty of valid reasons to criticize Thaksin. But most of those same criticisms could be applied to all the other politicians and political parties of Thailand; so, not wanting to rock the boat too much, those with such inferior secondary educations are left with ad hominem attacks upon Thaksin's rural supporters. Siam SaQuare is indeed the place for those with like minds, vogue on the outside whilst vague on the inside.

[lukamar]

And what about the Democrats now. It seems that now the ban on political activities has been lifted. But where are their policies they want to communicate to the people. What are they going to do?

Anybody?

I'll bite... They don't have any, just as they didn't have any in the past at least where the rural poor is concerned.

[John K]

For the posters that say Thaksin was not a dictator you are correct. However that status was days if not hours away. If you check the dictionary for the definition of dictator you will find it makes reference to complete control. Thaksin had that less one at the time of the coup. That was control of the military, and if you care to go back and check you will find that Thaksin had already given the orders to place his class 10 buddies in posts that would have done that. The orders were given just before he left Thailand heading for New York. The class 10 people were more or less in place at one time but Sonthi moved them out just a few months before. Thaksin was overriding that order, and from my understanding he had no real authority to do that but because his power was so deep and in all other veins of government it was difficult to resist. The coup was a preemptive move. Also thaksin gutted the government so he could get all that power.

From my understanding when Thaksin entered office the laws prohibited that to give a separation of power and provide checks and balance. To remove those laws is the signature of a person seeking to be a dictator. The coup although it may have been illegal, it was justified and supported by the top down and by the Thai people with enough education to see what was going on. The people who did not like the coup were on the take one way or another.

Based on the polls the overwhelming majority don’t support the protest rallies.

[lukamar]

scrapping the rice subsidies

I was under the impression that the subsidy had been reduced by $15 USD a Tonne, not scrapped. Am I in error?

Regards

I believe the subsidy was the amount that was reduced, making it the total subsidy that was cut. That made the sale price just slightly higher than the cost of production. Although this does not sound like a large amount to cut, the average farm size is 4 (Northeast) to 12 acres (Central) with the average family (4 people) income is approx $525 USD/year and $720 USD/Year for those that cultivate a second crop. Crops in these areas never meet the 1000Kg/Rai that is often stated. A cut of $15 a Tonne over the wholesale price would account for a large loss of family income.

FAO Rice Conference Info

Edited June 11, 2007 by lukamar

[sriracha john]

Something the Lieutenant and I can agree on is that violence will likely escalate.

The photo essay above captures the essence of the TRT in their PTV clothes. With the dissolution and bannings and now the Thaksin-funds seizure, they are getting desperate and will likely take things up a notch in their provocative and violent manner. They are the polar opposites of the much bigger, yet more peaceful and non-combative PAD rallies.

*edit. With thanks to the ever-present and always concise asd for the typically splendid post.

One thing you do not understand though: this was not organized or encouraged violence. The leaders of the rally have indeed tried to stop this from happening, by loudspeaker and by placing themselves in front of the crowd, though unsuccessfully. This was simply raw anger by participants of the rally.

Their presence at Sanam Luang is an organized effort. If the leaders are incapable of placating the escalating violence, the protests should stop. The leaders should renounce violence and put an end to the protests.

Anyhow, the size of this here is going to grow only, it has already reached the size of the Royal Plaza rallies, and it will grow further. People who have participated in the PAD rallies are beginning to appear in these rallies as well. Especially people who have demonstrated to oust Thaksin, but never imagined or wanted a military coup.

These PTV rallies are, as yet, no where near as big as PAD rallies.

There are huge changes beginning to happen right now in Thailand. Do not mistake this only as a TRT effort to save Thaksin, this goes much further, and is not to be underestimated.

If history is any indicator, the violence is stemming from the TRT faction of the protesters. Thaksin has nothing to lose physically... he's not the one on the front line pushing through the barriers.... but his goons are. He has the most to lose power-wise and financially, throwing money at protestors and bribed monks could be considered an investment for his future.

Edited June 11, 2007 by sriracha john

[lukamar]

The coup although it may have been illegal, it was justified and supported by the top down and by the Thai people with enough education to see what was going on.......

Perhaps you should read the latest ABAC poll it Shoots the Sh*t out of your argument.

ABAC POLL

Survey finds city people can tolerate corruption

ANJIRA ASSAVANONDA

A opinion poll which concludes Bangkok people don't really believe honesty is always the best policy shows a worrying decline in the morality of Thai society, Deputy Prime Minister Paiboon Wattanasiritham said yesterday. The Abac Poll surveyed 2,506 people in Bangkok and nearby provinces and found that more than 70% of them were ready to ''accept'' a corrupt government if it would improve their own well-being.

The results were released yesterday, a day after Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont addressed the nation in a TV broadcast, calling on all Thais to help rid the country of corrupt politicians.

Sponsored by the government's Centre for the Promotion of National Strength on Moral Ethics and Value, the survey was aimed at examining the morality of Thai people.

Worryingly, the poll also found that 90% of the respondents accepted that they were more afraid of losing money-making opportunities than anything else.

About 83% said they were even ready to violate social regulations if necessary.

Generally, men were less moral than women, while the morality of youths aged 18-20 was lower than the other age groups, the Assumption University poll concluded.

When educational background was taken into consideration, the survey showed that people with only high school or high vocational level education were morally better than those with a higher education.

The survey had focused on the six indicators important for monitoring morality _ discipline, responsibility, honesty, conscience, diligence and acts of giving.

Mr Paiboon, the minister for social development and human security, said the survey's findings will be used as a tool for addressing and tackling problems associated with morality.

''Its findings that a majority of people can accept corruption is worrying. It shows how people look at things with a narrow perspective and short-sightedness, which is dangerous,'' he said.

Corruption, he said, can be poisonous in the long term, even for people who have benefited from it. It will finally lead to social and economic decline.

''An influential figure may use corruption as a means to build up his popularity and make people feel they are better off with more money in their pockets, but that's not sustainable. A strong foundation for social and economic growth only comes from true goodness,'' he said.

The government has already approved the National Morality Promotion Bill, which would enable it to build a more responsible society.

In order to speed up the process, the cabinet also plans to issue a Prime Minister's Office regulation to encourage moral behaviour in every government agency.

Narathip Phumsap, director of the centre, said seven more surveys will be conducted in the same areas as well as in 18 other provinces to get a comprehensive view of the situation.

BKKPost

[tettyan]

A opinion poll which concludes Bangkok people don't really believe honesty is always the best policy shows a worrying decline in the morality of Thai society, Deputy Prime Minister Paiboon Wattanasiritham said yesterday. The Abac Poll surveyed 2,506 people in Bangkok and nearby provinces and found that more than 70% of them were ready to ''accept'' a corrupt government if it would improve their own well-being.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with this kind of attitude, but is it really unique or surprising? Ask the millions of Chicago's residents who voted for Richard Daley (both sr and jr) as mayor. Or Quebeckers who supported Maurice Duplessis. Or Tokyoites who voted for Ishihara Shintaro. You get the idea...

Edited June 11, 2007 by tettyan

[sriracha john]

Veteran democracy fighters strongly deny backing Thaksin

Anti-coup rally needs facelift, say activists

Veteran democracy fighters joining anti-coup rallies are trying to distance themselves from misconceptions that they are supporters of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra. They are pressing People's Television (PTV) executives and members of Mr Thaksin's now-defunct Thai Rak Thai party to make a major ''facelift'' to the demonstration, which many observers say now looks more like a pro-Thaksin rally than a protest for democracy. ''I will tell [PTV president] Veera today that we need to make it clear to the public that our goal is not to reinstate the deposed prime minister,'' Weng Tojirakarn of the Confederation for Democracy told the Bangkok Post yesterday. However, he said, it was difficult to stop himself and his organisation from being seen as pro-Thaksin because ''this rally originated with and is engineered by PTV''.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/12Jun2007_news03.php

========================

One gets the feeling from this article that without the PTV'ers, the protester numbers would be back down in the hundreds.

Those attendees wishing to distance themselves from the "Return Thaksin To Power" angle are going to have a difficult time as that clearly, from the speakers to the posters, is the goal of the majority of the protesters.

One also gets the feeling from this article, that again, the violence displayed thus far is eminating from the PTV/TRT majority that makes up the crowd as that inclination seems out of step for people such as those from the Duang Pratheep Foundation or a Supreme Court judge.

Edited June 12, 2007 by sriracha john

[sriracha john]

further reiteration of above points here... with a side-bar comment lowering the rally numbers from the Bangkok Post...

Thaksin fans should be told the truth

The Rain fan club is still nothing compared with the Thaksin fan club. On Saturday night, around 15,000 of them showed up at Sanam Luang before moving along Ratchadamnoen avenue, past the Democracy Monument to the army headquarters, the command compound for the Council for National Security. Their demands are clear. They don't like the coup or the coup makers led by army chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin and his subordinates. They want the army to disband the CNS and end its political role. To be fair, not all of them are loyal to ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, but the majority of them have made it clear they belong to the Thaksin fan club. Names like Veera Musikapong and Chatuporn Promphan, who are the key men behind the rally against the coup, were familiar when Mr Thaksin was in power at Government House. They were members of the Thai Rak Thai, the party founded by Mr Thaksin, before being forced into unemployment by the coup and later by the verdict of the Constitution Tribunal on May 30. At the protest site on Saturday night were people wearing T-shirts with messages like ''Missing you, Maew. Come back'' and ''My ideal prime minister''. There were banners with messages showing their stance such as ''I don't care. I love Thaksin''.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/12Jun2007_news16.php

[chownah]

If some people actually would prefer Toxin as PM then should they lie about it?

If some people actually would prefer Toxin as PM should they refrain from all political activity?

If some people actually would prefer Toxin as PM should they be banned from attending rallies?

If some people actually would prefer Toxin as PM should they be banned from ALL political activity?

If some people actually would prefer Toxin as PM should they be put under house arrest and not be allowed to leave their homes?

Seems like there are alot of people who still see Toxin as the best choice for PM. Just because the military dicatatorship is doing its best to make this an impossiblity is not going to change these people's minds. There are alot of people in the north who prefer Toxin and assume that its not going to happen any time soon...and a common comment from them is that with the army making the gov't Thailand has become just like Burma....frankly they are miffed that their votes don't count.

Chownah

[tettyan]

From my understanding when Thaksin entered office the laws prohibited that to give a separation of power and provide checks and balance. To remove those laws is the signature of a person seeking to be a dictator. The coup although it may have been illegal, it was justified and supported by the top down and by the Thai people with enough education to see what was going on. The people who did not like the coup were on the take one way or another.

Let's see. If Thaksin really wanted to pull off a Gleichschaltung, as you seem to suggest, he could have easily done so. But to his credit, he never did so (that's not to say that he didn't exhibit authoritarian tendencies in other ways though).

The formula for amending the constitution under the 1997 Charter was pretty simple. A majority in a joint sitting of the House and Senate was needed to pass any constitutional amendment. The House had 500 members and the Senate had 200, so that's a total of 700 members - Thaksin would've needed 351 to pass an amendment to do whatever he wanted. During his second term, TRT contrlled 377 MPs in the House alone, which made it easy for him to pass whatever he wanted. Even during the first term, his coalition was supported by over 320 MPs, and he also allegedly had over 100 senators on his payroll - he could've easily passed amendments then to strengthen his power. Or make Buddhism the state religion. Or restrict civil liberties, reign in the press, you name it. But he didn't.

Thaksin may have been a "soft authoritarian," a la Mahathir, Lee Kuan Yew, etc., but he certainly was no dictator, and definitely not a Franco/Mussolini/Hitler/"fill in the blank." Anyone who deigns to compare Thaksin with the latter lacks any sense of perspective, history, or basic common sense.

[sbk]

Posts have been deleted as name calling and insults are not necessary in a debate.

lets keep this civil, thanks.

[sriracha john]

A Marcos comparison I feel is fair... as the time-lines were running along the same track. Marcos declared martial law and total control as a means to perpetuate the ending of his second and final election. Human rights abuses were similar, as well. Control by Marcos was slow and insidious, yet unrelenting and evermore controlling. Taking Thaksin's promise of a 20-year reign for Thai Rak Thai, as well, parallels Marcos control at the helm. An overweight, primadonna, controlling spouse with a taste for opulence and 3 parasitic children further solidifies the comparison.

[lukamar]

There are alot of people in the north who prefer Toxin and assume that its not going to happen any time soon...and a common comment from them is that with the army making the gov't Thailand has become just like Burma....frankly they are miffed that their votes don't count.

That's exactly what I get from family and friends in your area and also Phayao. There are people, normally in the city, that can not fathom that as much as they hate Thaksin and the TRT, there is a whole other group that harbors the exact opposite position.

[ColPyat]

Something the Lieutenant and I can agree on is that violence will likely escalate.

The photo essay above captures the essence of the TRT in their PTV clothes. With the dissolution and bannings and now the Thaksin-funds seizure, they are getting desperate and will likely take things up a notch in their provocative and violent manner. They are the polar opposites of the much bigger, yet more peaceful and non-combative PAD rallies.

*edit. With thanks to the ever-present and always concise asd for the typically splendid post.

One thing you do not understand though: this was not organized or encouraged violence. The leaders of the rally have indeed tried to stop this from happening, by loudspeaker and by placing themselves in front of the crowd, though unsuccessfully. This was simply raw anger by participants of the rally.

Their presence at Sanam Luang is an organized effort. If the leaders are incapable of placating the escalating violence, the protests should stop. The leaders should renounce violence and put an end to the protests.

Anyhow, the size of this here is going to grow only, it has already reached the size of the Royal Plaza rallies, and it will grow further. People who have participated in the PAD rallies are beginning to appear in these rallies as well. Especially people who have demonstrated to oust Thaksin, but never imagined or wanted a military coup.

These PTV rallies are, as yet, no where near as big as PAD rallies.

There are huge changes beginning to happen right now in Thailand. Do not mistake this only as a TRT effort to save Thaksin, this goes much further, and is not to be underestimated.

If history is any indicator, the violence is stemming from the TRT faction of the protesters. Thaksin has nothing to lose physically... he's not the one on the front line pushing through the barriers.... but his goons are. He has the most to lose power-wise and financially, throwing money at protestors and bribed monks could be considered an investment for his future.

You make it appear as if the people that have pushed through the police barriers are somewhat guided and led by Thaksin personally. They are not Thaksin "goons". They are just his voters that are angry and who show their anger. Every demonstration has those sort of people, anywhere. Even the PAD demonstrations had them. And yes, during the PAD demonstrations the were reigned in better by better crowd control methods of the organizers. That though does not show that the organizers of these rallies here are supporting violence, only that they don't have yet good crowd control skills.

There is more potential for violence in the present demonstration, one reason is simply that the make up of the protesters simply is more blue collar, and these people are more violent in every day life, and that is not just so in Thailand, but everywhere.

The protests should stop? Well, what other option do these people have? From their perspective - their option to democratically show their opinion has been taken away - they cannot vote anymore, the party they supported is dissolved. How else can they show their views other than protesting? It is their right to protest.

The present demonstration may not yet be as big as the later PAD rallies, but lets wait and see there. So far the trend is that they have been growing, even though there are far tougher measures by the junta to prevent people from joining, such as stopping all non regular transport from upcountry to Bangkok, such as vans and hired buses.

To stop the demonstrations from happening an acceptable compromise has to be worked out. That though i don't see happening yet.

[Grover]

If some people actually would prefer Toxin as PM should they refrain from all political activity?

If some people actually would prefer Toxin as PM should they be banned from attending rallies?

If some people actually would prefer Toxin as PM should they be banned from ALL political activity?

If some people actually would prefer Toxin as PM should they be put under house arrest and not be allowed to leave their homes?

It depends on how they choose to exercise their preference.

If they prefer to use premeditated, violent measures, then the answer to all these questions IMO would be an unhesitating YES.

[ColPyat]

If some people actually would prefer Toxin as PM should they refrain from all political activity?

If some people actually would prefer Toxin as PM should they be banned from attending rallies?

If some people actually would prefer Toxin as PM should they be banned from ALL political activity?

If some people actually would prefer Toxin as PM should they be put under house arrest and not be allowed to leave their homes?

It depends on how they choose to exercise their preference.

If they prefer to use premeditated, violent measures, then the answer to all these questions IMO would be an unhesitating YES.

There was no "premeditated" violence.

And they have preferred to exercise their preference via elections and voting. This option was sadly taken away from them. As it was taken away from people who oppose Thaksin.

[lukamar]

It depends on how they choose to exercise their preference.

If they prefer to use premeditated, violent measures, then the answer to all these questions IMO would be an unhesitating YES.

Tanks and troops, armed with M16s, in the streets wasn't a violent measure.? It sure was.

[Grover]

It depends on how they choose to exercise their preference.

If they prefer to use premeditated, violent measures, then the answer to all these questions IMO would be an unhesitating YES.

Tanks and troops, armed with M16s, in the streets wasn't a violent measure.? It sure was.

I suppose you think police are being violent when they stroll the streets with guns in their holsters.

[ColPyat]

It depends on how they choose to exercise their preference.

If they prefer to use premeditated, violent measures, then the answer to all these questions IMO would be an unhesitating YES.

Tanks and troops, armed with M16s, in the streets wasn't a violent measure.? It sure was.

I suppose you think police are being violent when they stroll the streets with guns in their holsters.

Well, police is legally permitted to carry guns. Show me any law under the then valid constitution that allowed a military coup?

[sriracha john]

Something the Lieutenant and I can agree on is that violence will likely escalate.

The photo essay above captures the essence of the TRT in their PTV clothes. With the dissolution and bannings and now the Thaksin-funds seizure, they are getting desperate and will likely take things up a notch in their provocative and violent manner. They are the polar opposites of the much bigger, yet more peaceful and non-combative PAD rallies.

*edit. With thanks to the ever-present and always concise asd for the typically splendid post.

One thing you do not understand though: this was not organized or encouraged violence. The leaders of the rally have indeed tried to stop this from happening, by loudspeaker and by placing themselves in front of the crowd, though unsuccessfully. This was simply raw anger by participants of the rally.

Their presence at Sanam Luang is an organized effort. If the leaders are incapable of placating the escalating violence, the protests should stop. The leaders should renounce violence and put an end to the protests.

Anyhow, the size of this here is going to grow only, it has already reached the size of the Royal Plaza rallies, and it will grow further. People who have participated in the PAD rallies are beginning to appear in these rallies as well. Especially people who have demonstrated to oust Thaksin, but never imagined or wanted a military coup.

These PTV rallies are, as yet, no where near as big as PAD rallies.

There are huge changes beginning to happen right now in Thailand. Do not mistake this only as a TRT effort to save Thaksin, this goes much further, and is not to be underestimated.

If history is any indicator, the violence is stemming from the TRT faction of the protesters. Thaksin has nothing to lose physically... he's not the one on the front line pushing through the barriers.... but his goons are. He has the most to lose power-wise and financially, throwing money at protestors and bribed monks could be considered an investment for his future.

You make it appear as if the people that have pushed through the police barriers are somewhat guided and led by Thaksin personally. They are not Thaksin "goons". They are just his voters that are angry and who show their anger.

Thaksin certainly doesn't need to be on the front lines, he has any number of lowerlings that do his bidding on the basis of basic strategies. He can insulate himself the better for it.

Every demonstration has those sort of people, anywhere. Even the PAD demonstrations had them.

They did... there was a minor incident at one rally. Already, the significantly smaller PTV rallies have surpassed the PAD rallies for overall violence.

The protests should stop? Well, what other option do these people have? From their perspective - their option to democratically show their opinion has been taken away - they cannot vote anymore, the party they supported is dissolved. How else can they show their views other than protesting? It is their right to protest.

It is not their right to do so violently. The protest organizers, if they are unable to reign in the violence should cancel the protests. By not denouncing the violence, they are lending their approval to it.

The present demonstration may not yet be as big as the later PAD rallies, but lets wait and see there. So far the trend is that they have been growing, even though there are far tougher measures by the junta to prevent people from joining, such as stopping all non regular transport from upcountry to Bangkok, such as vans and hired buses.

An altogether too common occurence by the Thaksinistas for the PAD rallies as well.

To stop the demonstrations from happening an acceptable compromise has to be worked out. That though i don't see happening yet.

Yes, attempts to negotiate with the PTV have not proven successful as PTV ise adamant to have the CNS step down on the 16th ...

before Pojaman's trial starts on the 18th.

[jdinasia]

Seems to me a piece of paper being signed in HuaHin made it legal.... and the previous constitution became a piece of paper

[lukamar]

I suppose you think police are being violent when they stroll the streets with guns in their holsters.

There is a big difference between police on the street doing their everyday job, and military tanks and troops in TV stations and newspaper offices perpetuating an atmosphere of fear. Spin it as you wish but there has never been any police driving around Bangkok in a tanks overthrowing the government.

[ColPyat]

Yes, attempts to negotiate with the PTV have not proven successful as PTV ise adamant to have the CNS step down on the 16th ...

before Pojaman's trial starts on the 18th.

There were three minor incidents during the PAD rallies i am aware off - during both Royal Plaza rallies each one lone loon supporting Thaksin was attacked, and at government house the famous boxer wearing a pro Thaksin headband was attacked.

We don't know what has taken place in the meeting, from what i have heard there were no negotiations, only a handing over of a letter to the authorities.

At the time of the PAD rallies there were allegations of groups of protesters being stopped, but no hard evidence. I have no doubt though that is happened. Nevertheless it was not as wide spread and official as it is now.

You may wish that protests stop, but reality is that it will not happen. We should live with this fact, and go from reality, and not base our discussion on wishful thinking.

[Grover]

It depends on how they choose to exercise their preference.

If they prefer to use premeditated, violent measures, then the answer to all these questions IMO would be an unhesitating YES.

Tanks and troops, armed with M16s, in the streets wasn't a violent measure.? It sure was.

I suppose you think police are being violent when they stroll the streets with guns in their holsters.

Well, police is legally permitted to carry guns. Show me any law under the then valid constitution that allowed a military coup?

I am not aware of any such law.

[ColPyat]

Seems to me a piece of paper being signed in HuaHin made it legal.... and the previous constitution became a piece of paper

Retroactive application of the law does not make the action of the coup legal. At the time of the coup it was an illegal action. Anyhow, this is a topic matter that we should keep out of the discussion. There is much that could be said, but whatever it is, it is against board rules.

[ColPyat]

I am not aware of any such law.

And that is one of the big problems here.

In every speech of the government or the junta "the law" is mentioned in some way or the other, while the military coup has never been supported by any law. And people here are not stupid, they rightly perceive that "the law" seems to apply to them, and to the ones they support, but not to their accusers.

That has set again a very uncomfortable precedent.

[Grover]

Seems to me a piece of paper being signed in HuaHin made it legal.... and the previous constitution became a piece of paper

Retroactive application of the law does not make the action of the coup legal. At the time of the coup it was an illegal action. Anyhow, this is a topic matter that we should keep out of the discussion. There is much that could be said, but whatever it is, it is against board rules.

ok, can we can restrict the topic matter to this simple question: Was the retroactive application of the law legal ? Y or N ?

[ColPyat]

Seems to me a piece of paper being signed in HuaHin made it legal.... and the previous constitution became a piece of paper

Retroactive application of the law does not make the action of the coup legal. At the time of the coup it was an illegal action. Anyhow, this is a topic matter that we should keep out of the discussion. There is much that could be said, but whatever it is, it is against board rules.

ok, can we can restrict the topic matter to this simple question: Was the retroactive application of the law legal ? Y or N ?

We are moving there at a very murky ground. Unless you want military coups a valid option in our democracy here again, as it was once in the dark days, whenever the military feels they should do so, then i would say that this is a clear No.

Edited June 12, 2007 by ColPyat