Agarwood

[toolonginexile]

hi all,

a friend of mine has become enthusiastically interested in agarwood/ oud oil. we have visited quite a few websites (touchwood, siamagarwood a.s.o.) to gain some detailed information on that topic and it looks like a good future investment to me. now we are interested in purchasing some seedlings but don't know any nurseries in the pattaya/chonburi area that deal with agarwood seedlings. could anyone supply us with contact details, addresses, phone numbers a.s.o of agarwood nurseries/plantations? we've heard of one nursery in chantaburi province near the pong nam ron cambodian border on the road to sakaew which sells sedlings at 20 baht each; does anyone know the exact address? thanx.

[sibeymai]

What sort of cultivation do you have in mind.....quantity, location, what will you do with it at harvest time ?

[toolonginexile]

What sort of cultivation do you have in mind.....quantity, location, what will you do with it at harvest time ?

we think of one or two plantations in isaan and chonburi area, size about one rai each with about 200 trees or so (depending on exactly how much space is needed per tree).

at harvest time, after say six or seven years, we want to infect them artificially (ca kit??) to produce resinous agarwood, then..? good question. distill oil ourselves? sell the trees? time enough to learn and find out. our problem at the moment is where to get seedlings of a good quality from, if possible somewhere in the chonburi area or neighbouring provinces? any ideas or tips?

[sibeymai]

you can find seedlings in nurseries on the side of the road between Nakhon Nayok and Prachantakam (about midway between the two around where a cross road goes through Khao Yai national park to Pak Chong, sorry, don't know the highway number). Prices range between 10-15 baht for seedlings around 50-80cm.

[toolonginexile]

you can find seedlings in nurseries on the side of the road between Nakhon Nayok and Prachantakam (about midway between the two around where a cross road goes through Khao Yai national park to Pak Chong, sorry, don't know the highway number). Prices range between 10-15 baht for seedlings around 50-80cm.

thanks a lot, sibeymai, for that information, should be possible to find the place even though its a bit far from jomtien where we stay - but obviously noone else can give us a hint on where to get seedlings from in the pattaya/chonburi area? anyway an investment in agarwood looks cheap enough to make it worth an effort. would be nice, however, to gather some more information, especially from people who have made experience with agarwood plantations/inducement themselves. we're only beginners trying to gain knowledge and would like to get in touch with more experienced agarwood farmers. thanks for any assistance.

[sibeymai]

I have a few agarwood trees planted on 7 rai on my farm at Khao Hin Son (highway 304) mixed with teak. I think agarwood is worthwhile and the harvest term can be up to you anywhere from about 6 years onwards.

Agarwood must have water; will not tolerate extended dry periods. I have a drip irrigation system and 1,500 cubic metres water pond to see me through the dry season.

There are a number of inducement methods being used in Thailand. However, the CA kit is probably the best (and most expensive) as it has been developed and proven by research studies in the US.

Good luck and good harvest.

[whitevan73]

Is Argarwood another name for Krisana? if it is, i can tell you every thing you need to know

Edited June 18, 2007 by whitevan73

[sibeymai]

Agarwood=Krisana, same same.

[toolonginexile]

Agarwood=Krisana, same same.

there seem to be an awful lot of different names: agarwood, eaglewood, heartwood, oudh [arabian?], (dork) mai horm [thai] a.s.o.

the lao word is <ked sa na>: same as <krissana>, which, when isaan/lao people say it, becomes <kid sa na> anyway. funny however, that the first name of the owner of siamagarwood in chantaburi is krissana as well.

contacted touchwood a couple of days ago but they would not tell me the price for the ca kit as i had no six year old trees. would be useful, however, in order to make a calculation, i mean, how much it costs, how many trees can get induced a.s.o

obviously agarwood needs water, then again too much rainfall or flooding could damage the harvest i guess? as in recent years length and intensity of both dry and rainy season have become pretty unpredictable that could be a difficult task?

would be interesting to visit an operating private agarwood plantation, not one of these commercial mega-plantations, that more or less operate as investment companies (krissanapanasin for instance). ok, that investment thing is interesting, too, and might be the easiest for unexperienced farmers but you never know who you should trust. profit by the way (if you don't expect a fortune} should be better with one's own plantation

[Loom]

Junglebiker said in another thread the Touchwood kit in Laos costs ~US$20 per tree. I'm still wondering how they are expecting to go from 120,000 to 6 million trees in Thailand over the next four years and what that will do to pricing in the global market. Could have a bearing on the future profitability for independent growers.

[sibeymai]

Currently there are no sustainable, regular and legal sources of quantities of agarwood which commercial users could develop into mass market products using agarwood ingredients. There is certainly interest from manufacturers to do so...possibly the next "miracle ingredient" in cosmetics and personal care products (remember aloe vera, henna, tea tree oil...etc ad infinitum).

Through managed commercial plantations the problems in creating a mass market product from agarwood will be solved as plantations regularly harvesting and processing can supply regular raw or processed product and due to the plantation source they can satisfy the requirements necessary to export with CITES approval.

All of this should allow small individual farmers to also market their product, either through niche products they produce themselves, or by selling their raw harvested trees to whoever sets up to process the commercial plantation's output.

[Loom]

So if large commercial plantations create new sources of demand that would solve the supply problem. Since the current level of global demand is supply constrained there's no real way to determine potential demand.

I suppose it's worth a try mixed with other wood products as long as the patent holder on the "CA" kit doesn't try to regulate future supply with kit pricing. I wonder if the kit patent holder is Touchwood, the US university or the professors.

[chownah]

So if large commercial plantations create new sources of demand that would solve the supply problem. Since the current level of global demand is supply constrained there's no real way to determine potential demand.

I suppose it's worth a try mixed with other wood products as long as the patent holder on the "CA" kit doesn't try to regulate future supply with kit pricing. I wonder if the kit patent holder is Touchwood, the US university or the professors.

Get the patent number and I believe you can look up who holds it.

[toolonginexile]

thanks all for all the useful information so far, been a great help, but if there are any more people out there who could supply us with information worth knowing it might be interesting to share it?

next month i will have to go to laos (visa begging) and intend to visit one or two ked sa na plantations in the vientiane area, one of them also offers investment opportunities. anyone made experience in that field (NOT touchwood)?

[Totster]

I have removed some posts from this topic regarding investment schemes.

Please continue to discuss the farming/cultivation aspects of this topic, but not any investment schemes.

Thankyou

Totster

[Maxi101]

There are some problems with this sort of thing.

1. You are relying on Thai companys to get your product sold. They have some obscure sharing 50/50 program from what they offer you.

We have some 15 year old trees and running in that kind of problem.

2. The older the tree the better the quality.

Trees between 3 and 30 years are seen as young trees.

3. There is no proofed method for getting the strong resin holding agarwood - even with some magic formulars of chemie a.s.o.

4. 1 of 10 tree has the agarwood inside from itself (nobody no the reason why?)

5. Some methods of wounding the tree and putting stuff inside from soil to iron from fungus to woodraspels are out there but free to experiment.

6. India, Butan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia and some Islands around Australia are starting full pull to plant that stuff.

Uni Minesota started all that, without speaking about the dream formular - if there is one. They said they wanted to create an income source for poor farmers, but in my opinion the cash goes to the rich exporters (again).

Maybe the main point was to safe the natural stock of trees in the forest.

[Maxi101]

ups forgot one thing.

Like with breeding livestock you should buy (if you do so) seedlings or plants from trees which already produced good agarwood.

Don't ask I have nothing to sell. (only to prevent the suspicion of doing business).

[ludosiam]

Had read this story in one of the Thai newspapers:

'The world's most valuable wood'

Aromatic agarwood prized by princes could become a lucrative export for local tycoon Boon Vanasin

CHAROEN KITTIKANYA

Property tycoon Boon Vanasin was once invited to a banquet held by the crown prince of Saudi Arabia with 100 distinguished guests in attendance. The prince was burning dry agarwood to please the guests.

Dr Boon was stunned when he learned that the prince's aromatic little gesture cost 10 million baht, prompting him to research one of the world's most expensive woods _ and its market potential.

According to Dr Boon, Saudi Arabia alone burns dry agarwood worth more than 80 billion baht a year. The world market for agarwood, used mainly for incense, is estimated at more than 180 billion baht a year.

''World demand is astonishing,'' said Dr Boon, who has spent 15 million baht over the past five years researching the business. It has led to the formation of a company, Krissana Panasin Co, to handle agarwood development.

''Over the last five years, we have dedicated much time, finances and human resources to researching, studying and testing, to create high-quality agarwood oil concentrate,'' he said,

''And we have achieved an agricultural breakthrough in agarwood production by reducing the production period of resinous heartwood from 50 years in nature to just seven years in cultivation.''

Dr Boon also said that his was the first company to bio-engineer agarwood trees to create high-grade heartwood throughout the entire tree.

Agarwood is found in Aquilaria trees, large evergreens native to Southeast Asia. It is a resin that the tree produces in response to the attack of a parasite, but in nature it occurs in only one tree out of every 5,000.

Krissana Panasin has also succeeded in developing its own agarwood varieties named Panasin, using seeds from Sra Bap and Soi Dao mountains in Chanthaburi, where the best agarwood varieties in Thailand originate. It also has an agarwood tissue culturing project based on varieties that can yield good-quality heartwood.

Insatiable worldwide demand for aromatic wood over 2,000 years has led to severe depletion of tropical agarwood forests.

Thanks to a Thai initiative to promote reforestation, local farmers have grown more than 100,000 agarwood trees since 2000. Currently, several million such trees are grown nationwide.

According to Panamese Thitisomboon, managing director of Krissana Panasin, the company has invested 30 million baht in a refinery at its orchard in Chanthaburi. The factory is due to start operations in about six months.

The market price for agarwood oil now ranges from 280,000 to 800,000 baht per litre depending on quality.

According to Mr Panamese, the company has about 5,000 trees and aims to have 500,000 within three years.

The company will arrange for experts to assess plantation areas for other growers. It also guarantees to repurchase the trees grown from its strains at 2,000 to 3,000 baht each once they mature in six to seven years.

Dr Boon said the company was also working with the SME Bank and the Bank for Agriculture and Agricultural Co-operatives to support farmers.

''Growing agarwood trees is popular and there are more and more agarwood farmers. However, most are not properly educated,'' he said.

''Even worse, they have been deceived and when the time comes to collect the heartwood, they are unable to sell it at the desired prices as the quality is below global standards. So we would like to advise interested investors to study the information on agarwood cultivation thoroughly beforehand.''

Source: www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-164229605.html

[whitevan73]

The burning question is. Does Anybody know of a person who has planted these trees and made any money from a harvest??

Paul

[JungleBiker]

Hi Maxi101,

You seem very sceptical!!

There are some problems with this sort of thing.

1. You are relying on Thai companys to get your product sold. They have some obscure sharing 50/50 program from what they offer you.

We have some 15 year old trees and running in that kind of problem.

The market for agarwood is really strong now and there are lots of buyers around the world who will be happy to buy any agarwood you have. Unless you have treated your 15 year old trees with CA Kits (which I very much doubt) then your 15 year old trees probably do not cannot any resin. Just get them treated with CA Kits and in 2 years they will be worth hundreds of dollars each and I will be very happy to buy them from you. In fact I know people who may be interested to buy your living trees now and then treat them with CA kits and but after 2 years they will get the hundreds of dollars per tree instead of you.

2. The older the tree the better the quality.

Trees between 3 and 30 years are seen as young trees.

You are talking about wild trees in the forest. To gain good returns on plantation trees, you can treat with CA Kits at around 5 years and then harvest the agarwood two years later (age 7). Quality will increase with age, but at 7 years, the trees treated with CA Kits will produce good quality agarwood worth around 200 - 500 dollars per tree; why wait longer for even higher quality when you can already make a good return on your investment.

3. There is no proofed method for getting the strong resin holding agarwood - even with some magic formulars of chemie a.s.o.

There is a proven technology! It is marketed as CA Kits. (CA = Cultivated Agarwood). It is the only patented agarwood inducement technology in the world.

4. 1 of 10 tree has the agarwood inside from itself (nobody no the reason why?)

You don't know the reason why, but me and many others do. You are talking about wild trees in the forest. In nature, agarwood trees produce the resin in response to wounding by insects, disease, lightening strikes, wind damage, etc. Many trees do not suffer such injuries therefore do not produce any resin. So now you too know the reason why! If trees are treated with CA Kits then every tree will produce agarwood.

5. Some methods of wounding the tree and putting stuff inside from soil to iron from fungus to woodraspels are out there but free to experiment.

There are many methods to artificially induce agarwood resin in trees; it is very easy! For example, just knock one nail in a tree and you will get some resin. But the quantity will be so tiny that it ain't worth the cost of the nail. Knock 10 kilograms of nails in the tree and you will get more resin. But the cost of the nails and the labour will still not be worth the small amount of oil that you will get. So it is not a question of what method you can use to produce agarwood oil/resin, but a question of which method is the most cost effective. The answer is the CA Kit. Current price of a CA Kit in Laos (and Vietnam) is now around US$25 to treat a tree of about 5 years age, but the agarwood produced after 2 years will be worth about US$200 - 500. So you can see it is very cost effective!

By the way, I should warn you that if for some strange reason you choose to induce agarwood using nails, soil, shot guns, wood rasps, drills, explosives, fungus, etc, then you will be infringing the patent for CA Kits because the CA Kit patent covers ALL methods of inducing agarwood!

6. India, Butan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia and some Islands around Australia are starting full pull to plant that stuff.

You forgot Laos! And a few other countries. Yes, there is a planting boom. It has been caused by the crazy high prices for agarwood due to strong demand and diminishing supplies from natural prices. Only people who apply CA Kits to their plantation trees will make any decent money.

Uni Minesota started all that, without speaking about the dream formular - if there is one. They said they wanted to create an income source for poor farmers, but in my opinion the cash goes to the rich exporters (again).

Maybe the main point was to safe the natural stock of trees in the forest.

University of Minnesota did not cause the high agarwood prices or the boom in planting, but they did help to develop the CA Kit technology and thereby have created a way for plantation owners to make money from their trees. This certainly will help to reduce pressure on natural stocks in the forest.

About helping poor farmers... because of the excellent work of Prof Bob at University of Minnesota and Henry in Vietnam who jointly developed the CA Kit technology, I am now buying 5 year old trees from poor farmers in Laos so that I can treat the trees with CA Kits to produce agarwood. The poor farmers don't have money to buy CA Kits, but even so they are making thousands of dollars simply by selling their untreated trees to me. Right now the people who can make big money from agarwood are the people with agarwood trees (including rich owners of big plantations and poor farmers), not the exporters.

You are welcome to ask questions.

JB

[JungleBiker]

The burning question is. Does Anybody know of a person who has planted these trees and made any money from a harvest??

Paul

Yes, I do.

[JungleBiker]

Junglebiker said in another thread the Touchwood kit in Laos costs ~US$20 per tree. I'm still wondering how they are expecting to go from 120,000 to 6 million trees in Thailand over the next four years and what that will do to pricing in the global market. Could have a bearing on the future profitability for independent growers.

Hi Loom,

Since 1 June 2007, the price of a #1 size CA Kit in Laos has been increased to US$25 (US$15 payable at the time of treatment and US$10 one year later).

By the way, the patented product is called the CA Kit, not Touchwood kit. In Thailand, the company Touchwood is the distributor of CA Kits.

JB

[MrSquigle]

You sound like a time share salesman now working for touchwood......you all know about the saying 'touchwood' ....is that what they say as they treat each tree ....."hope this works, touchwood"

Seeing as you say EVERY tree will produce treated with the kit, do you offer a guarantee or money back offer ??

'then you will be infringing the patent for CA Kits because the CA Kit patent covers ALL methods of inducing agarwood! '

what a croc of &lt;deleted&gt;, if i want to blow up my trees or bash them with a hammer I will, you can take me and my trees to the patent court.....but you will need a witness and my trees ain't gunna roll over on me.

Edited July 7, 2007 by MrSquigle

[JungleBiker]

You sound like a time share salesman now working for touchwood......you all know about the saying 'touchwood' ....is that what they say as they treat each tree ....."hope this works, touchwood"

Hi Mr Squigle,

I appreciate your sense of humour, but I am not working for Touchwood and neither am I a time share salesman. I am linked to the distributor of CA Kits in Laos (same product, but different country, different company). It makes no difference to me if those of you growing agarwood in Thailand buy CA Kits from Touchwood or not. I just wanted to correct the misleading comments posted in this thread and give good advice to fellow members of this forum who have already invested in or are contemplating investing in agarwood.

Seeing as you say EVERY tree will produce treated with the kit, do you offer a guarantee or money back offer ??

I can't speak for Touchwood, but yes in Laos we do offer to give the money back because we know it works every time.

'then you will be infringing the patent for CA Kits because the CA Kit patent covers ALL methods of inducing agarwood! '

what a croc of &lt;deleted&gt;, if i want to blow up my trees or bash them with a hammer I will, you can take me and my trees to the patent court.....but you will need a witness and my trees ain't gunna roll over on me.

Well you would be infringing the patent for CA Kits, but I doubt the patent holder would want to waste good money paying their lawyers to take you to the courts. Perhaps more worthy targets for legal action could be companies like the Krissana Panasin company mentioned above. So yes you certainly can do what you like with your trees, but why on Earth would you want to waste the opportunity to make several hundred dollars per tree?

Best regards,

JB.

[bendix]

Isnt there a forum rule against blatant promotion of products?

Junglebiker . . I think you're flogging a deadhorse here. This particular investment area has an appalling reputation in Thailand with rumours being rife of investors struggling to get their initial investments back (and having to resort to legal action), of plantations being ruined by floods and having to be replanted (putting back scheduled repayments) and similar stories.

[A_Traveller]

At the risk of being a bore, but isn't this all moot anyway? I'm sure some bright spark will claim they have a way around these, {companies etc.} but I'd not be a happy bunny investing in a business which seems to so clearly run the risk of being forbidden by statute. I take the view that List 1 4 might be arguable but creating a plantation surely places the operation slap into List 3.

Foreign Business Act 2542

List 1

The businesses not permitted for aliens to operate due to special reasons:

1. Newspaper business, radio broadcasting or television station business
   
2. Rice farming, farming or gardening.
   
3. Animal farming
   
4. Forestry and wood fabrication from natural forest
   
5. Fishery for marine animals in Thai waters and within Thailand specific economic zones.
   
6. Extraction of Thai herbs.
   
7. Trading and auctioning Thai antiques or national historical objects.
   
8. Making or casting Buddha images and monk alms bowls.
   
9. Land trading
   

List 3

The business which Thai national are not yet ready to complete with foreigners:

1. Rice milling and flour production from rice and farm produce
   
2. Fishery, specifically marine animal culture.
   
3. Forestry from forestation.
   <snip>
   

Regards

[JungleBiker]

Isnt there a forum rule against blatant promotion of products?

Junglebiker . . I think you're flogging a deadhorse here. This particular investment area has an appalling reputation in Thailand with rumours being rife of investors struggling to get their initial investments back (and having to resort to legal action), of plantations being ruined by floods and having to be replanted (putting back scheduled repayments) and similar stories.

Hi Bendix and anyone else who holds similar opinions,

I sincerely hope I am not breaking forum rules, but very sorry if I am. Please note that I did not provide the name of the Lao company or any contact numbers and the company does not have the right to sell CA Kits in the Thai market, so I was certainly not trying to make any sales to anyone on this forum. Our customers are in Laos and as far as I know they do not visit this forum. The company that markets CA Kits in Laos does not have an investment scheme such as that operated by Touchwood in Thailand. In Laos there are already about 7,500 hectares (= 7.5 million trees) of agarwood planted by private farmers, big and small (from one hundred trees to one million trees per plantation). These Lao farmers are our target market. If you do not believe CA Kits can induce resin formation in agarwood trees, it makes absolutely no difference to me. In fact I will be better off financially if none of the members of this forum invest in agarwood production in Thailand. The less potential suppliers of agarwood in Thailand there are, then the better off will be the Lao farmers and the supplier of CA Kit to those farmers!

The opening poster "toolonginexile" said he has researched the agarwood opportunity and now plans to develop a plantation. Later in the thread some posters made incorrect statements about inducement of agarwood. I made corrections as I do not like people to spread misinformation. I thought that by providing factual information I was usefully assisting the members of this forum.

Best regards,

JB.

Edited July 8, 2007 by JungleBiker

[MrSquigle]

So provide the facts bout the failures also then.

Big tip....never sprout off how good it will be if someone does not invest in your industry cos it will make it all the better for you and so on in another country, makes you sound stooopid.

I got 2 weeks holiday coming up in a brand new holiday villa in Samui if you would like to take it up, or you can swap it for a 3 week vacation in a tent in the simpson desert, or 8 weeks in a siberian igloo !!!

[JungleBiker]

So provide the facts bout the failures also then.

Big tip....never sprout off how good it will be if someone does not invest in your industry cos it will make it all the better for you and so on in another country, makes you sound stooopid.

I got 2 weeks holiday coming up in a brand new holiday villa in Samui if you would like to take it up, or you can swap it for a 3 week vacation in a tent in the simpson desert, or 8 weeks in a siberian igloo !!!

Hi Mr Squigle,

I am not sure what I have written that has caused you to dislike me, but but I am sorry for that.

Failures... I don't deny that there have been failures. The information I have provided here was intended to reduce the chance of failure. I am sorry you did not appreciate that. I will be happy to tell you about failures. For example, here in Laos there have been many people (Lao and foreign) who have been and still are selling inducement techniques (like nails, fungus and nasty chemicals like acid and herbicides) that do not perform as promised and in the case of the chemical treatments many trees have been killed by the treatment. It is for this reason that I advise anyone planning to invest in agarwood production to use CA Kits because this is the most profitable way to induce resin in agarwood trees. If you do not believe me, that's okay but please do not be so disrespectful.

After about 2 - 3 years from now you will hear about the success and popularity of CA Kits in many countries in this region, so please hold your judgment of me and CA Kits until then, thanks.

Other failures relate to poor site selection (such as land with poorly drained soils or prone to flooding) and poor management such as lack of weeding, fire breaks, pest and disease management, protection from livestock, and so on. Such failures are inevitable when people with no knowledge of agriculture/forestry invest in this business. That is not a reflection of the crop or business opportunity but the people who invest without first seeking assistance from others with expertise/experience.

Best regards,

JB.

[chownah]

The burning question is. Does Anybody know of a person who has planted these trees and made any money from a harvest??

Paul

Good question but so far no answer. What is the market for this stuff. I'm sure that some people will think that in the future the market will be huge but I'm more interested in learning what the market its now. Does anyone know of anyone who has sold some resin?...how much? what grade? what price?

Chownah