China?

[LaoPo]

The leadership in China has a growing free wheeling economy, but is not held accountable for environmental excess by its populace or anyone else.

True. They can make money without caring about the effects because they can afford to send their families elsewhere.

Awareness of the gigantic pollution problem is rising, but the problem is indeed huge....:

"Under the 1996-2010 five-year plan, China pledged to cut its energy consumption per unit of gross domestic product by 20 percent, or 4 percent each year. But the consumption actually fell by just 1.23 percent last year. "

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2007...tent_900992.htm

"The city government of Xiamen, a port city in East China's Fujian Province, decided to suspend construction of the potentially dangerous chemical project amid fears of pollution on May 30."

BUT:

"SEPA statistics show 90 percent of rivers that thread their way through Chinese cities are polluted, more than 300 million rural residents are unable to drink clean water and more than 400 million urban residents are unable to breathe fresh air. In 2006, one major environmental incident occurred every two days and nearly 600,000 Chinese people lodged complaints about environmental problems."

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2007...tent_900969.htm

It's a BIG problem

On the other hand it shows that the 'freedom of speech' is rising and that's positive since the Chinese people are indeed helding the government responsible....they should!

LaoPo

[meemiathai]

No need to worry about pollution. Ammunition will wipe out the human race first.

[chinthee]

As I see it, China is a huge freight train gathering steam at every point. You either get on it or get crushed by it. That means, every country needs to think how to expand trade links and give up legacy industries in which it is no longer price competitive. This is especially true for a country like Thailand that stands to be marginalized tremendously by China.

Regarding the USA and China's rising challenges, come on, the symbiotic relationship of everything on the shelf in the USA being supplied by China, and the huge earnings China gets from its exports and US-invested and brain-entrusted industries overwhelms all other interests, environment included.

The shame is that because China is doing this in a fraction of the time it took America, it will end up devastating its environment, whereas in America, the quality of life is still outstanding generally.

[meemiathai]

China can be super power because why: they can abuse human rights. With a billion people those on top can stand higher than the Himilayas with the grassroots at the bottom. With a billion people they can throw a person far enough to reach the moon. But there left a billion slaves.

Just to clarify, I am no expert at all. What I wrote is just what I believe. Any different views would be more than welcome. I would really want to learn.

[meemiathai]

One more thing, I am glad that military-wise, the US is still on the upper hand than China. I hope I would be 6 foot under already by the time it goes the other way round. I understand too well how chinese people think and behave.

By the way, my mother is Shanghainese born in Shanghai, China.

[chinthee]

One more thing, I am glad that military-wise, the US is still on the upper hand than China. I hope I would be 6 foot under already by the time it goes the other way round. I understand too well how chinese people think and behave.

By the way, my mother is Shanghainese born in Shanghai, China.

Meemaithai, hehe, don't worry. Nobody's gonna get the upper hand on uncle sam for a long time, at least in terms of apocalypse style technology. Technological superiority is what guarantees the US it's position in world history now, to such an extent never experienced in world history based on numbers of troops etc.. Of course, radicalism and terrorism is a different sort of war...

[thaihome]

I agree and unfortunately that's inherent to the fast growing economical situation.

However, with a population of 300 million, just 25% of China's population, the US is still by far the largest pollutor on earth, being the most powerful and one of the richest nations on earth at the same time...

It will be a big challenge for China & India as well as the US and a lot of other nations to preserve the earth for our future generations.

LaoPo

I guess you misssed the news that China overtook the United States in 2006 as the world's biggest emitter of carbon dioxide, the greenhouse gas blamed for the bulk of global warming

count me in the group that has lived there is glad they don't anymore...

TH

[LaoPo]

I agree and unfortunately that's inherent to the fast growing economical situation.

However, with a population of 300 million, just 25% of China's population, the US is still by far the largest pollutor on earth, being the most powerful and one of the richest nations on earth at the same time...

It will be a big challenge for China & India as well as the US and a lot of other nations to preserve the earth for our future generations.

LaoPo

I guess you misssed the news that China overtook the United States in 2006 as the world's biggest emitter of carbon dioxide, the greenhouse gas blamed for the bulk of global warming

count me in the group that has lived there is glad they don't anymore...

TH

Thanks Thaihome; I stand corrected and read the same report (from my own country, btw) today on Chinadaily.com.cn after I wrote the above.

Yes, China surpassed the USA in total number of emitting carbon dioxide but is still far behind on a basis of number of people; meaning the pollution per person in China is three times lower than in (for example) The Netherlands.

Still, a lot of work has to be done, woldwide.

But, the complaining about China is not completely fair; on one hand hundreds of millions of people benefit of lower consumption prices (made-in-China) and thus create a high demand for lots of products; the West is pumping billions into the Chinese economy, building more and more factories, and what do we say:

China is the largest pollutor....

IF the west is comlaining so much...they should stop buying...but, the world keeps spinning around...

But I am an optimistic person: I strongly believe that the world, in 2 or 3 decades, will be a cleaner one than today and the West should take a lead; The rest will follow.

LaoPo

[Soph]

Interesting thread - im going to China next week for 2 months and was wondering how it is for single female travellers? I will be mainly in the North West and Xian. This is a huge step out of my comfort zone that is for sure!

[chinthee]

Interesting thread - im going to China next week for 2 months and was wondering how it is for single female travellers? I will be mainly in the North West and Xian. This is a huge step out of my comfort zone that is for sure!

Not sure how far northwest you'll be going, but Xi'an is great. I assume you'll be going to see the Qin Shi Huang and Terracotta warriors. One tip, make sure to hire an official english-speaking local guide at the site who knows the fantastic history of the area as he guides you through the site. It takes a few hours.

If you're going as far as Urumqi, in xinjiang province that is an entirely different culture altogether, and they speak a turkic tongue. Some of the best tightrope walkers in the world come from the gypsy tribes there.

[chinthee]

Interesting thread - im going to China next week for 2 months and was wondering how it is for single female travellers? I will be mainly in the North West and Xian. This is a huge step out of my comfort zone that is for sure!

Not sure how far northwest you'll be going, but Xi'an is great. I assume you'll be going to see the Qin Shi Huang and Terracotta warriors. One tip, make sure to hire an official english-speaking local guide at the site who knows the fantastic history of the area as he guides you through the site. It takes a few hours.

If you're going as far as Urumqi, in xinjiang province that is an entirely different culture altogether, and they speak a turkic tongue. Some of the best tightrope walkers in the world come from the gypsy tribes there.

Also, regarding being a female single traveller is generally no problem, but did I understand you'll be travelling alone for 2 months around China and you don't speak Mandarin? That would be very difficult, as English can be non-existent outside the major cities, unless you have someone meeting you everywhere or advanced planning. Can you give some more details?

[ercorn]

In relation to female travels in China you will have no problems as I said my wife feels alot safer in China than she does in Bangkok.Be prepared for the Chinese to stare at you alot men and women but you do get used to it after a while.Also I have seen a lot of pickpocketing going on in China and they are very good at it.Just a word of warning.If you get a chance let us know your impressions of China as there has been alot of interesting views here.

regrds Ercorn

[JR Texas]

In relation to female travels in China you will have no problems as I said my wife feels alot safer in China than she does in Bangkok.Be prepared for the Chinese to stare at you alot men and women but you do get used to it after a while.Also I have seen a lot of pickpocketing going on in China and they are very good at it.Just a word of warning.If you get a chance let us know your impressions of China as there has been alot of interesting views here.

regrds Ercorn

JR Texas: So much stuff on this thread......more input from me.

Safety: I have never felt threatened in China......but I am a man. I do not know anything about the safety of Western women in China....sorry. Also, I have never felt threatened by the police or government or immigration........very different from Thailand.

Pollution: It is no more or less polluted than Thailand, and in many isolated areas it is not polluted.....extraordinarily beautiful and clean. Zhuhai is not polluted.......Dalian is a pretty clean city. Beijing has horrendous air......Hong Kong is very clean in many places (makes Bangkok look like dog crap), but the air can get very bad at certain times of the year (and, as an aside, it is hugely expensive to live in Hong Kong).

The Chinese have done more in the area of alternative energy than any country I have been in.....this is not widely appreciated.....photovoltaic cells all over......most ride bicycles.....electronic motorcycles, high tech light bulbs, etc. The problem is too many people combined with rapid economic growth and a reliance on coal (primarily).

Solution: rapid reduction in size of population (one of the only countries that has taken positive steps in this direction) and the development and deployment of a totally new energy system that is sustainable.

Economy: If you want to change your perspective, go to Kowloon around sunset and walk around the container cargo docks......it will change you.....the stretch for miles and miles and are stacked up into the sky.....all destined for ports in Europe, USA, Africa, Asia, etc. They are kicking but because they are hard working and smart.

Psychology: Just a note......the Chinese are proud people and will look you directly in the eye and not feel like they are inferior. This makes some insecure Westerners feel a bit uncomfortable. Also, and not to be rude, most Chinese girls will not automatically drop their panties simply because you are a Western male with money.........nuff said. You have to do something many expats living in Thailand have forgotten about: Dating.

Military: I was near an airbase close to North Korea and watched the Chinese Air Force train pilots.....they did it almost every day........one fighter every two minutes or so would be flying around...one after another. They were good. In addition, the population is ready to go to war and are serious dudes....people say, me included, that the US has better "high tech" weapons, but the Chinese have the numbers. I would never want to fight them.......NEVER!

Change: Young people are still walking the line (sorry Johnny C), but they know more now....many understand that they have a corrupt government, but they still think things will get better. They are SMART.......I would rank them above most American students (I know something about both) and DEDICATED to making a better China. There are confrontations taking place in the countryside that are not reported in most newspapers........there is some unrest now, particularly over land seizures. I think it is inevitable that China will become more free simply because the forces of globalization are moving it in that direction and the young will demand it, eventually.

[JR Texas]

In relation to female travels in China you will have no problems as I said my wife feels alot safer in China than she does in Bangkok.Be prepared for the Chinese to stare at you alot men and women but you do get used to it after a while.Also I have seen a lot of pickpocketing going on in China and they are very good at it.Just a word of warning.If you get a chance let us know your impressions of China as there has been alot of interesting views here.

regrds Ercorn

JR Texas: So much stuff on this thread......more input from me.

Safety: I have never felt threatened in China......but I am a man. I do not know anything about the safety of Western women in China....sorry. Also, I have never felt threatened by the police or government or immigration........very different from Thailand.

Pollution: It is no more or less polluted than Thailand, and in many isolated areas it is not polluted.....extraordinarily beautiful and clean. Zhuhai is not polluted.......Dalian is a pretty clean city. Beijing has horrendous air......Hong Kong is very clean in many places (makes Bangkok look like dog crap), but the air can get very bad at certain times of the year (and, as an aside, it is hugely expensive to live in Hong Kong).

The Chinese have done more in the area of alternative energy than any country I have been in.....this is not widely appreciated.....photovoltaic cells all over......most ride bicycles.....electronic motorcycles, high tech light bulbs, etc. The problem is too many people combined with rapid economic growth and a reliance on coal (primarily).

Solution: rapid reduction in size of population (one of the only countries that has taken positive steps in this direction) and the development and deployment of a totally new energy system that is sustainable.

Economy: If you want to change your perspective, go to Kowloon around sunset and walk around the container cargo docks......it will change you.....the stretch for miles and miles and are stacked up into the sky.....all destined for ports in Europe, USA, Africa, Asia, etc. They are kicking but because they are hard working and smart.

Psychology: Just a note......the Chinese are proud people and will look you directly in the eye and not feel like they are inferior. This makes some insecure Westerners feel a bit uncomfortable. Also, and not to be rude, most Chinese girls will not automatically drop their panties simply because you are a Western male with money.........nuff said. You have to do something many expats living in Thailand have forgotten about: Dating.

Military: I was near an airbase close to North Korea and watched the Chinese Air Force train pilots.....they did it almost every day........one fighter every two minutes or so would be flying around...one after another. They were good. In addition, the population is ready to go to war and are serious dudes....people say, me included, that the US has better "high tech" weapons, but the Chinese have the numbers. I would never want to fight them.......NEVER!

Change: Young people are still walking the line (sorry Johnny C), but they know more now....many understand that they have a corrupt government, but they still think things will get better. They are SMART.......I would rank them above most American students (I know something about both) and DEDICATED to making a better China. There are confrontations taking place in the countryside that are not reported in most newspapers........there is some unrest now, particularly over land seizures. I think it is inevitable that China will become more free simply because the forces of globalization are moving it in that direction and the young will demand it, eventually.

[meemiathai]

most Chinese girls will not automatically drop their panties simply because you are a Western male with money.........nuff said. You have to do something many expats living in Thailand have forgotten about: Dating.

That is quite insulting, isn't it? You compare prostitutes in thailand to normal girls in China? You want me to bring you to places where all chinese girls will automatically drop their panties simply because you have money? I can.

[JR Texas]

most Chinese girls will not automatically drop their panties simply because you are a Western male with money.........nuff said. You have to do something many expats living in Thailand have forgotten about: Dating.

That is quite insulting, isn't it? You compare prostitutes in thailand to normal girls in China? You want me to bring you to places where all chinese girls will automatically drop their panties simply because you have money? I can.

JR Texas: Sorry......did not mean to offend any person reading this thread. They myth is that Thai women automatically drop their panties in the face of a Western male with money......that myth drives many foreign expats to live in Thailand. There is a large group of Western males that truly believe this. The reality is different.

[LaoPo]

most Chinese girls will not automatically drop their panties simply because you are a Western male with money.........nuff said. You have to do something many expats living in Thailand have forgotten about: Dating.

That is quite insulting, isn't it? You compare prostitutes in thailand to normal girls in China? You want me to bring you to places where all chinese girls will automatically drop their panties simply because you have money? I can.

You have a lot more experience than me....but...I'm married, so no need.

But still curious of course where and what you mean...

BTW: JR Texas:

I'm curious as why you said: "In addition, the population is ready to go to war and are serious dudes...."...???

In all my years coming to China I never ever heard anyone speak about [going to] war apart from the Japanese invading China pre/during WWII and the denials by them about the horrendous massacres they committed in China...

Maybe you have a different view than me, but I think the Chinese [beijing] are not willing to go into any war, whatsoever, not even over the disputed 'province' of Taiwan. I'm sure you know the Chinese are masters in negotations and discussions but going to war....

But, that's me.

LaoPo

[JR Texas]

most Chinese girls will not automatically drop their panties simply because you are a Western male with money.........nuff said. You have to do something many expats living in Thailand have forgotten about: Dating.

That is quite insulting, isn't it? You compare prostitutes in thailand to normal girls in China? You want me to bring you to places where all chinese girls will automatically drop their panties simply because you have money? I can.

You have a lot more experience than me....but...I'm married, so no need.

But still curious of course where and what you mean...

BTW: JR Texas:

I'm curious as why you said: "In addition, the population is ready to go to war and are serious dudes...."...???

In all my years coming to China I never ever heard anyone speak about [going to] war apart from the Japanese invading China pre/during WWII and the denials by them about the horrendous massacres they committed in China...

Maybe you have a different view than me, but I think the Chinese [beijing] are not willing to go into any war, whatsoever, not even over the disputed 'province' of Taiwan. I'm sure you know the Chinese are masters in negotations and discussions but going to war....

But, that's me.

LaoPo

JR Texas: I think I made some mistakes in that past post....written in haste. For the record, I have been with the same Thai women for seven years......do not ever go to the bars......enough talk about women.

About "ready to go to war." I do not mean they want to go to war......I mean they are prepared and if push comes to shove they will shove.

From day one they listen to propoganda........they walk the line........they believe.....they are proud to be Chinese. The bulk of the entire population would likely be behind any war effort (not sure if the bulk of the US population would be behind any war effort today, especially with the Bad Bush in charge).

If invaded, they will most certainly react..........now, the economy is booming......the youth have some hope of finding a job.....if that situations changes, then social instability will increase.....if that happens the people at the top just might look around for a convenient enemy to focus on....directing the attention of the public to something other than those that rule.

From day one they have painted Japan as that enemy............if they target Japan all hel_l will break lose because the US will respond.....same for S. Korea.

Basically, I am just saying they are prepared for war if necessary.........that is all. In my mind, I see them as a very serious challenge to US domination in the world. And, really, that does not bother me.

[artao]

Corruption is everyday life. Police walk in to your office and tell you it is chinese new year and demand a few red packets(money). They change policies every few months to extort money.

Women are treated like shit! Human lives are treated like shit!

And don't tell me you believe in what the Chinese Newspapers says? They don't even tell you anything about the June 4th Massacre! Ask some ordinary Chinese people if they knew what happened in the 4th of June, 1989. Every thing is a bloody show.

wake up! do you still live in the COLD WAR time?

I am an ordinary Chinese people, and I want to say that all you said above just like SHIT!

[bkkmei]

Just wanted to add a few things:

- If Chinese people don't know you, you may as well be dirt on their shoe in terms of pushing / shoving / western concepts of 'manners' etc. BUT once you get to know them beyond superficial acquaintance, they're incredibly friendly, they'll do anything for you & be your best friend & help you out in all kinds of circumstances.

- I was first in China in 1990/91 (after Tiananmen). At that time, it seemed to me, students were more 'political', could recognise the shortcomings of their government, there seemed to be more of an underground movement and yearning for freedoms which they didn't have. Now, since the economy has gone haywire, it seems people have become more materialistic, more money-hungry. My personal impression is that people don't really care about democratic freedoms, but more about the money. (Which given that they had so many economic restrictions beforehand is maybe not surprising...)

- Having said that, when I was in China, demonstrations of any kind were unheard of (or maybe unreported). Now there are more demos (against local dignitaries / govt) at a grassroots level to complain about local injustices e.g. lack of compensation for land rights.

- People seem much more patriotic now - especially anti-Japanese. I think this hatred is stirred up by the govt at convenient times to channel the unrest of those missing out on the economic miracle (I think this is what JR Texas said).

- I don't know if it was in the news in Thailand, but I was in HK this June 4th, when a Chengdu newspaper 'accidentally' printed a tribute to the mothers of the Tiananmen massacred. Their explanation? The person responsible for editing the ad didn't know what was being referred to. That's either a great excuse or very very sad.

My personal relationship with China is one of extremes: I either love it or hate it!!

Edited June 25, 2007 by bkkmei

[artao]

Just wanted to add a few things:

- People seem much more patriotic now - especially anti-Japanese. I think this hatred is stirred up by the govt at convenient times to channel the unrest of those missing out on the economic miracle (I think this is what JR Texas said).

- I don't know if it was in the news in Thailand, but I was in HK this June 4th, when a Chengdu newspaper 'accidentally' printed a tribute to the mothers of the Tiananmen massacred. Their explanation? The person responsible for editing the ad didn't know what was being referred to. That's either a great excuse or very very sad.

My personal relationship with China is one of extremes: I either love it or hate it!!

can't agree with you.

1) anti-Japanese is not stirred up by the govt but the govt lets it alone.

2) as far as the Chengdu newspaper 's report, it is meaningless, just coincident in number:64. the newspaper as follows:

Edited June 25, 2007 by artao

[chinthee]

Just wanted to add a few things:

- People seem much more patriotic now - especially anti-Japanese. I think this hatred is stirred up by the govt at convenient times to channel the unrest of those missing out on the economic miracle (I think this is what JR Texas said).

- I don't know if it was in the news in Thailand, but I was in HK this June 4th, when a Chengdu newspaper 'accidentally' printed a tribute to the mothers of the Tiananmen massacred. Their explanation? The person responsible for editing the ad didn't know what was being referred to. That's either a great excuse or very very sad.

My personal relationship with China is one of extremes: I either love it or hate it!!

can't agree with you.

1) anti-Japanese is not stirred up by the govt but the govt lets it alone.

2) as far as the Chengdu newspaper 's report, it is meaningless, just coincident in number:64. the newspaper as follows:

I agree. Japanese-hating seems to be in the blood, especially after what happened at Nanjing in WWII (Massacre of Nanking). google or wikipedia it. The government doesn't need to stir it up, and enjoys the inward Japanese investment.

[stumonster]

interesting thread

I have just been working in the boondocks of Guizhou province for the past 11 months , and my first word of warning , and I am surprised no one has mentioned this . moutai is horrible . try it once by all means - but a small glass and , shou gumbei .

from my experience the environmental issues are to the forefront now , but I am talking about larger projects that require approval by government departments - the many failures of infrastructure has made many officials conscientious about what they will sign off now.

But my experience in china has been good , I agree with the posters about the language issues , especially outside the major cities , but with a little perseverance and an ability to sketch on a pad you will get your message across - I do note that the Chinese seem to be more forgiving about pronunciation than I have encountered while in Thailand .

I would say that china is changing rapidly and is well worthwhile visiting to gain the experience

I am still of the age that I am willing to live to learn. :-)

[meemiathai]

Corruption is everyday life. Police walk in to your office and tell you it is chinese new year and demand a few red packets(money). They change policies every few months to extort money.

Women are treated like shit! Human lives are treated like shit!

And don't tell me you believe in what the Chinese Newspapers says? They don't even tell you anything about the June 4th Massacre! Ask some ordinary Chinese people if they knew what happened in the 4th of June, 1989. Every thing is a bloody show.

wake up! do you still live in the COLD WAR time?

I am an ordinary Chinese people, and I want to say that all you said above just like SHIT!

I am very much awake.

Why not explain? Tell us more about you and China.

You mean there is no corruption? Have you heard of the June 4th Massacre? How?

[WaiWai]

Cannot agree with the poster earlier who claimed China was no more polluted than Thailand. China does have some clean areas, and BKK is surely polluted, but vast areas of China are horrendously toxic.

For decades, the United States has been the world’s largest polluter, taken to task by other countries for its contribution to global warming. This year, however, China’s annual emissions are on pace to overtake those of the United States. Worse, China’s pollution is projected to be double that of all other industrialized nations combined in 25 years, according to the International Energy Agency.

“The concern about China is that it is going through such a rapid industrialization,” said V. Ramanathan, a scientist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in San Diego. “It is setting up more coal-fired power plants. The number of cars are increasing.”

Hooked on coal: Plants and factories inadequately equipped

Twenty of the world’s 30 most polluted cities are in China, and every year more than 300,000 deaths there are attributed to pollution, according to the World Bank.

Much of that pollution comes from the coal-fired plants that produce about 70 percent of China’s energy needs, compared with 50 percent for the United States and 16 percent for California.

But the problem in China is not just the amount of coal burned. Many of its plants and factories have inadequate pollution-control equipment, if any, and that is unlikely to change in coming years. Rising levels of sulfur dioxide from burning coal is causing acid rain.

Foul air is just one ingredient in the toxic stew that is China’s environment. Seventy percent of the country’s lakes and rivers are so polluted they would make humans sick. Every year, about 45 billion tons of industrial waste and raw sewage are dumped in rivers and lakes.

In late 2005, a chemical plant spill contaminated the Songhua River in northern China, forcing the city of Harbin to shut down its drinking water system. Earlier this month, more than a million residents of eastern China were left without drinking water when a fast-spreading, putrid-smelling green algae covered badly polluted Lake Tai.

The northern half of China is “drying out” as water tables fall, lakes vanish and rivers disappear, observed environmental analyst Lester Brown, founder of Washington-based Earth Policy Institute. Much of the water in the southern half of China, meanwhile, is growing ever more polluted.

The land also suffers.

The government recently reported that 10 percent of farmland has been destroyed by pollution and that heavy metals contaminate 12 million tons of grain a year. Toxic food scares have become common in China, and increasingly are a worry in the United States as food imports from China grow.

Rampant deforestation is expanding the country’s deserts and contributing to disruptive spring sandstorms so big they have shown up on NASA satellite photos as giant blobs of brown passing over Asia and California. About 27 percent of China’s land mass is now desert, or becoming desert.

The Gobi Desert in northern China expanded more than 20,000 square miles, about half the size of Pennsylvania, in just six years in the 1990s, Brown noted.

http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2007/06/19/...nrest-in-china/

[JR Texas]

Cannot agree with the poster earlier who claimed China was no more polluted than Thailand. China does have some clean areas, and BKK is surely polluted, but vast areas of China are horrendously toxic.

For decades, the United States has been the world’s largest polluter, taken to task by other countries for its contribution to global warming. This year, however, China’s annual emissions are on pace to overtake those of the United States. Worse, China’s pollution is projected to be double that of all other industrialized nations combined in 25 years, according to the International Energy Agency.

“The concern about China is that it is going through such a rapid industrialization,” said V. Ramanathan, a scientist at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in San Diego. “It is setting up more coal-fired power plants. The number of cars are increasing.”

Hooked on coal: Plants and factories inadequately equipped

Twenty of the world’s 30 most polluted cities are in China, and every year more than 300,000 deaths there are attributed to pollution, according to the World Bank.

Much of that pollution comes from the coal-fired plants that produce about 70 percent of China’s energy needs, compared with 50 percent for the United States and 16 percent for California.

But the problem in China is not just the amount of coal burned. Many of its plants and factories have inadequate pollution-control equipment, if any, and that is unlikely to change in coming years. Rising levels of sulfur dioxide from burning coal is causing acid rain.

Foul air is just one ingredient in the toxic stew that is China’s environment. Seventy percent of the country’s lakes and rivers are so polluted they would make humans sick. Every year, about 45 billion tons of industrial waste and raw sewage are dumped in rivers and lakes.

In late 2005, a chemical plant spill contaminated the Songhua River in northern China, forcing the city of Harbin to shut down its drinking water system. Earlier this month, more than a million residents of eastern China were left without drinking water when a fast-spreading, putrid-smelling green algae covered badly polluted Lake Tai.

The northern half of China is “drying out” as water tables fall, lakes vanish and rivers disappear, observed environmental analyst Lester Brown, founder of Washington-based Earth Policy Institute. Much of the water in the southern half of China, meanwhile, is growing ever more polluted.

The land also suffers.

The government recently reported that 10 percent of farmland has been destroyed by pollution and that heavy metals contaminate 12 million tons of grain a year. Toxic food scares have become common in China, and increasingly are a worry in the United States as food imports from China grow.

Rampant deforestation is expanding the country’s deserts and contributing to disruptive spring sandstorms so big they have shown up on NASA satellite photos as giant blobs of brown passing over Asia and California. About 27 percent of China’s land mass is now desert, or becoming desert.

The Gobi Desert in northern China expanded more than 20,000 square miles, about half the size of Pennsylvania, in just six years in the 1990s, Brown noted.

http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2007/06/19/...nrest-in-china/

JR Texas: More input on previous posts..........the govt. does promote anti-Japanese sentiment via the mainstream mass media and posters, etc. It is ingrained in their education system.

Pollution in China is greater than Thailand for three reasons: 1) economic growth is much greater than in Thailand, 2) the population size is far greater than Thailand, and 3) the size of the country is far larger than Thailand. So, of course, there is more pollution.

BUT, Thailand is seriously polluted. How many of you would go down to any river and take a drink? AND, the air pollution in places like Bangkok and Chiang Mai is as polluted as in any of the worst places in China.

Yes, the Worldwatch Institute is producing a lot of material on China.......that is because China is so relevant in many ways to the world's economy and environment.......it does not focus on Thailand because Thailand is so insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

China's problem is simple: too many people and massive economic growth colliding with the life systems (air, water, soil, living biota). They are doing what they can to make things better......really taking advantage of solar energy, for example. They are discussing developing a completely new energy system.......now they are stuck on coal. They have taken the population problem seriously.

What is the govt. to do? Stop development? That will not happen because they realize that they must create jobs and wealth for the masses or the game will be up for them (i.e., the ruling elites). So, economic growth must continue coupled with population controls.

By the way, per capita, the USA is the world's largest polluter. The way out of our economic and environmental problems: develop and deploy a new (sustainable) energy system (your very own personal energy system) and radically reduce population levels worldwide. Any politician that does not support this is not worth voting for.

[ercorn]

I guess it doesn`t matter too much which country is more polluted Thailand or China they are both really bad.When I am in Bangkok at least when the sun shines I often see blue sky.When I go to Guangzhou it is always very hazy .I forgot to mention earlier although I think its an asian thing as well but the Chinese love diigging holes and leaving piles of dirt everywhere.

regrds Ercorn

[JR Texas]

I guess it doesn`t matter too much which country is more polluted Thailand or China they are both really bad.When I am in Bangkok at least when the sun shines I often see blue sky.When I go to Guangzhou it is always very hazy .I forgot to mention earlier although I think its an asian thing as well but the Chinese love diigging holes and leaving piles of dirt everywhere.

regrds Ercorn

JR Texas: Some forms of pollution have no borders (e.g., global warming). Anyway.......the life systems of the planet are collapsing......it is a gradual process........surprises occur (e.g., ozone holes)....we are playing a very dangerous game.

On another matter, I just received an email from a former Chinese student of mine....she sent me pictures. She is sitting with friends around a table with lots of food all over......they are smiling and laughing. This is the China I remember (spent almost all of 2006 there). Things are changing.......

Having said that, it is true that there are things you simply should not do unless you want to get into serious trouble. For example, you can't say anything bad about Chairman Mao. China has a long way to go to achieve freedom of speech. Repression of dissidents is a reality.........but Thailand is not much better.

Even the USA has long practiced censorship.....few Americans are even aware of it (check out Project Censorship). Just today the Supreme Court ruled that a student does not have the right to promote "drug use." Personally, I think it would cause students to think.....might lead to an interesting discussion.......but we can't have that in the USA.

[j_cheung]

I guess it doesn`t matter too much which country is more polluted Thailand or China they are both really bad.When I am in Bangkok at least when the sun shines I often see blue sky.When I go to Guangzhou it is always very hazy .I forgot to mention earlier although I think its an asian thing as well but the Chinese love diigging holes and leaving piles of dirt everywhere.

regrds Ercorn

JR Texas: Some forms of pollution have no borders (e.g., global warming). Anyway.......the life systems of the planet are collapsing......it is a gradual process........surprises occur (e.g., ozone holes)....we are playing a very dangerous game.

On another matter, I just received an email from a former Chinese student of mine....she sent me pictures. She is sitting with friends around a table with lots of food all over......they are smiling and laughing. This is the China I remember (spent almost all of 2006 there). Things are changing.......

Having said that, it is true that there are things you simply should not do unless you want to get into serious trouble. For example, you can't say anything bad about Chairman Mao. China has a long way to go to achieve freedom of speech. Repression of dissidents is a reality.........but Thailand is not much better.

Even the USA has long practiced censorship.....few Americans are even aware of it (check out Project Censorship). Just today the Supreme Court ruled that a student does not have the right to promote "drug use." Personally, I think it would cause students to think.....might lead to an interesting discussion.......but we can't have that in the USA.

JR:

Try taking long & deep breaths along Chang An DaJie in Beijing or even around Causeway Bay in HK on any given working day and then blowing your nose. You get to smell, see & taste the residue from their coal fire plants and/or home-made stoves. I'll take the petrol-laced fumes from BKK and Chiang Mai traffic any day!

Actually, you can adeptively criticise the late Chairman now but not so much against the Party he help to found. The real problem nowadays resides not so much with the central government but with the county/municipal cliques (i.e. 当官) that act like local medievel barons.

[meemiathai]

I guess it doesn`t matter too much which country is more polluted Thailand or China they are both really bad.When I am in Bangkok at least when the sun shines I often see blue sky.When I go to Guangzhou it is always very hazy .I forgot to mention earlier although I think its an asian thing as well but the Chinese love diigging holes and leaving piles of dirt everywhere.

regrds Ercorn

JR Texas: Some forms of pollution have no borders (e.g., global warming). Anyway.......the life systems of the planet are collapsing......it is a gradual process........surprises occur (e.g., ozone holes)....we are playing a very dangerous game.

On another matter, I just received an email from a former Chinese student of mine....she sent me pictures. She is sitting with friends around a table with lots of food all over......they are smiling and laughing. This is the China I remember (spent almost all of 2006 there). Things are changing.......

Having said that, it is true that there are things you simply should not do unless you want to get into serious trouble. For example, you can't say anything bad about Chairman Mao. China has a long way to go to achieve freedom of speech. Repression of dissidents is a reality.........but Thailand is not much better.

Even the USA has long practiced censorship.....few Americans are even aware of it (check out Project Censorship). Just today the Supreme Court ruled that a student does not have the right to promote "drug use." Personally, I think it would cause students to think.....might lead to an interesting discussion.......but we can't have that in the USA.

JR:

Try taking long & deep breaths along Chang An DaJie in Beijing or even around Causeway Bay in HK on any given working day and then blowing your nose. You get to smell, see & taste the residue from their coal fire plants and/or home-made stoves. I'll take the petrol-laced fumes from BKK and Chiang Mai traffic any day!

Actually, you can adeptively criticise the late Chairman now but not so much against the Party he help to found. The real problem nowadays resides not so much with the central government but with the county/municipal cliques (i.e. 当官) that act like local medievel barons.

EXACTLY!!!