Wrong Petrol Can Damage The Car?

[peacemakers]

Careless filling station attendant pumps wrong petrol into German’s 24M baht Ferrari

Ariyawat Nuamsawat

A German motorist is anxiously monitoring his 24-million-baht Ferrari 430 after a careless filling station attendant pumped the wrong grade of gasoline into its tank.

Bruno Pringle filed a report with Banglamung police on June 5 that the Esso filling station on the Sukhumvit Road at Bang Saen had said they would take full responsibility for any damages.

Bruno, the owner of the Ferrari, said he won’t press charges just yet.

Pringle, who has a home in Pattaya, said that he bought the car six months ago for 24 million baht. Two days previously he had stopped at the Esso station to fill up, and had told the attendant several times which petrol to use, because he couldn’t read the Thai signs. He felt suspicious when he saw the petrol was cheap at just over 27 baht a liter while at other pumps it was 30 baht, but the attendant told him that was the standard price. The Ferrari was filled with 1,850 baht worth of petrol.

Shortly after leaving the filling station the car stalled and the ignition began to show problems. Pringle called into a Jet filling station and noticed a price difference. He went back to the Esso station and was told the car had been filled with the wrong type of petrol. He told the attendants to drain off the petrol, but didn’t receive any service, so he filed a complaint with the police.

Pringle said he had drained the petrol from the tank and taken the car back to Pattaya, where he called the Ferrari Service Center who sent out a mechanic. He said the mechanic told him that no damage had been done, but Pringle is still afraid to drive the car. He said that if anything goes wrong with the engine or the ignition, repairs will start at around 600,000 baht and he will claim compensation.

Filling stations should have signs written in other languages in order to avoid similar incidents, he added.

From Pattaya Mail VOl XV no.25

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How much damage if wrong petrol was put in a car ? what a different petrol 91 and 95 ? Anyone in this forum know the answer ?

[bino]

The Ferrari was filled with 1,850 baht worth of petrol.

Do Ferraris really have fuel tanks this big? somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 litres?

[soundman]

Bruno Pringle? Potato Chip Pringle's?

To OP.

Wrong grade petrol can damage an engine. All to do with octane (primary component of petrol / gasoline) levels, timing & compression settings. That said: car with performance spec. engine will only suffer damage from incorrect grade fuel if its being gunned close to 100%. If its being driven normally (little old granny style), not much chance of detonation.

For a more detailed report ask a mechanic.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[expatgaz]

Suppose when you sell View Talay Villas & View Talay Residences at such extortionate prices you can own 24 mil cars !!! and people want to buy into his latest venture ocean 1 and load his pockets even more.Maybe thats to buy his plane !! Jealous....No, amazed at his ability to rip people of so easy...yes.

EPG.

[Artisan]

To OP.

Wrong grade petrol can damage an engine. All to do with octane (primary component of petrol / gasoline) levels, timing & compression settings. That said: car with performance spec. engine will only suffer damage from incorrect grade fuel if its being gunned close to 100%. If its being driven normally (little old granny style), not much chance of detonation.

For a more detailed report ask a mechanic.

Soundman.

Gasoline doesn't contain octane. You're referring to Octane Number. Octane number is measured relative to a mixture of iso-octane and heptane. An "95-octane" gasoline, for example, has the same octane rating as a mixture of 95 vol-% iso-octane and 5 vol-% heptane. This doesn't mean, however, that the gasoline actually contains these chemicals in these proportions. It simply means that it has the same autoignition resistance as the said mixture.

The octane number of gasoline also relates to how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gasoline vapour ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. You're right, "knocking" can damage an engine. Lower-octane gasoline (like "regular" 91-octane gasoline) can handle the least amount of compression before igniting.

Edited June 25, 2007 by Artisan

[monty]

I doubt wrong octane number can damage a modern engine.

When pinging (pre-detonation, detonation before the ignition produces a spark), the engine management will retard the ignition timing halting the pinging...

You will lose top-end power and economy will suffer (not that economy should matter much when driving ferrari).

In older cars with old style mechanical/electrical ignitions too low octane fuel can indeed damage a car, but only when you keep on pushing the engine, and you'll certainly feel something is not running properly!

[Artisan]

I doubt wrong octane number can damage a modern engine.

When pinging (pre-detonation, detonation before the ignition produces a spark), the engine management will retard the ignition timing halting the pinging...

You will lose top-end power and economy will suffer (not that economy should matter much when driving ferrari).

In older cars with old style mechanical/electrical ignitions too low octane fuel can indeed damage a car, but only when you keep on pushing the engine, and you'll certainly feel something is not running properly!

Hello Monty. Yes, you're right. In modern cars, some light pre-ignition at partial throttle settings is built in to the engine management system. It’s deliberate and doesn't do any damage. Have you noticed that, when it’s raining, the noise disappears and it will always go if you open the throttle? I think this is a function of unleaded gasoline having different properties than the leaded kind (not just the octane number). If the noise develops into a deep rattle, serious and expensive damage will result, the piston crown will start to break up and spall off……but not straight away!

This self-compensating feature was first introduced on the turbo-charged Saab engines exactly twenty five years ago. Saab did it by by-passing some the waste gas around the turbo to reduce the pressure. Although knock sensors, which are basically microphones, are common even on non-turbocharged engines today, there are some engines that still don’t incorporate this auto-knock control. BUT, a Ferrari engine has six of these knock sensors mounted on the crankcase to guarantee knock control.

So the OP shouldn’t worry.

[Pink Mist]

Good advice from all Posters and especially from my favourite Vet.

[thai_narak]

y don't you try and let us know...

[tropo]

Pringle, who has a home in Pattaya, said that he bought the car six months ago for 24 million baht.

The base price for a Ferrari 430 is $180,545. How does the price jump from that to 24 million = $706,000?

Is the import duty really that high?

How long has Pringle been in Thailand? You'd think he'd know something about the petrol for sale in Thailand by now. Isn't it easy to see the 91 and 95 signs on all the pumps?

Edited June 25, 2007 by tropo

[monty]

Import tax of cars in the highest bracket (over 220HP and over 3000 CC) is a whopping 308%

so 308% of 180,000 is 544500 Baht in taxes to be paid bringing the total to some 720,000 US$

More info:http://www.customs.go.th/Customs-Eng/Perso...PersonalPer#tax

[tropo]

Import tax of cars in the highest bracket (over 220HP and over 3000 CC) is a whopping 308%

so 308% of 180,000 is 544500 Baht in taxes to be paid bringing the total to some 720,000 US$

More info:http://www.customs.go.th/Customs-Eng/Perso...PersonalPer#tax

Incredible! You'd have to be absolutely fanatical to pay 4 times what a car is worth.

[thai_narak]

Pringle, who has a home in Pattaya, said that he bought the car six months ago for 24 million baht.

The base price for a Ferrari 430 is $180,545. How does the price jump from that to 24 million = $706,000?

Is the import duty really that high?

How long has Pringle been in Thailand? You'd think he'd know something about the petrol for sale in Thailand by now. Isn't it easy to see the 91 and 95 signs on all the pumps?

it's not between 91 and 95 it's between 95 and sugarcane... anyway, it's the mistake of the pump guy.

[elkangorito]

I doubt wrong octane number can damage a modern engine.

When pinging (pre-detonation, detonation before the ignition produces a spark), the engine management will retard the ignition timing halting the pinging...

You will lose top-end power and economy will suffer (not that economy should matter much when driving ferrari).

In older cars with old style mechanical/electrical ignitions too low octane fuel can indeed damage a car, but only when you keep on pushing the engine, and you'll certainly feel something is not running properly!

About 20 years ago, when I was doing my commercial pilots licence, the topic of fuels & engines were covered to some detail.

It was indicated to me that "detonation" is the very rapid ignition & burning of a fuel as opposed to the much slower normal burn rate of the same fuel. This all relates to 'flame front' of fuels at Standard Temperature & Pressure. Flame Front is usually measured in Metres per second. Detonation is not 'pre-ignition'.

By the way, it's 'pinking' & not 'pinging'.

Hello Monty. Yes, you're right. In modern cars, some light pre-ignition at partial throttle settings is built in to the engine management system. It’s deliberate and doesn't do any damage. Have you noticed that, when it’s raining, the noise disappears and it will always go if you open the throttle? I think this is a function of unleaded gasoline having different properties than the leaded kind (not just the octane number). If the noise develops into a deep rattle, serious and expensive damage will result, the piston crown will start to break up and spall off……but not straight away!

This self-compensating feature was first introduced on the turbo-charged Saab engines exactly twenty five years ago. Saab did it by by-passing some the waste gas around the turbo to reduce the pressure. Although knock sensors, which are basically microphones, are common even on non-turbocharged engines today, there are some engines that still don’t incorporate this auto-knock control. BUT, a Ferrari engine has six of these knock sensors mounted on the crankcase to guarantee knock control.

So the OP shouldn’t worry.

I'm of the opinion that a motor vehicle can be susceptible to damage as a result of incorrect fuel usage. To rely on electronic mechanisms to compensate for incorrect fuel is not a solution & not even a band-aid. This is akin to drinking poison & then immediately taking the antidote while quite clearly it is much more sensible to not drink the poison in the first place.

[wcr]

Suppose when you sell View Talay Villas & View Talay Residences at such extortionate prices you can own 24 mil cars !!! and people want to buy into his latest venture ocean 1 and load his pockets even more.Maybe thats to buy his plane !! Jealous....No, amazed at his ability to rip people of so easy...yes.

EPG.

I am surprized more haven't posted similar statements to this one!

[Artisan]

Hello Monty. Yes, you're right. In modern cars, some light pre-ignition at partial throttle settings is built in to the engine management system. It’s deliberate and doesn't do any damage. Have you noticed that, when it’s raining, the noise disappears and it will always go if you open the throttle? I think this is a function of unleaded gasoline having different properties than the leaded kind (not just the octane number). If the noise develops into a deep rattle, serious and expensive damage will result, the piston crown will start to break up and spall off……but not straight away!

This self-compensating feature was first introduced on the turbo-charged Saab engines exactly twenty five years ago. Saab did it by by-passing some the waste gas around the turbo to reduce the pressure. Although knock sensors, which are basically microphones, are common even on non-turbocharged engines today, there are some engines that still don’t incorporate this auto-knock control. BUT, a Ferrari engine has six of these knock sensors mounted on the crankcase to guarantee knock control.

So the OP shouldn’t worry.

I'm of the opinion that a motor vehicle can be susceptible to damage as a result of incorrect fuel usage. To rely on electronic mechanisms to compensate for incorrect fuel is not a solution & not even a band-aid. This is akin to drinking poison & then immediately taking the antidote while quite clearly it is much more sensible to not drink the poison in the first place.

You are entitled to your opinion but perhaps you should discuss it with Ferrari, Ford, BMW, Mercedes, Chrysler, Porsche, Subaru, Mitsubishi etc. etc. etc. They spend millions of dollars on the research and development of these engine management systems. Some "band aid"!

Pre-ignition doesn't damage an engine. Even 95-octane gasoline can (and does) detonate prematurely, so experiencing it, albeit briefly, as I've said previously, isn't and can't be damaging. Modern-day knock sensors and engine management systems act very quickly because, at 2400rpm, your spark plugs are firing 20 times per second. "Knock" is detected very quickly and does not persist, as it did in earlier engines without such control systems.

With respect to your analogy, what about locations where high octane fuel isn't available, where mistakes are made during refuelling (as in the original post), the effect of altitude, air density or atmospheric moisture?

Nevertheless, an interesting topic.

[Artisan]

By the way, it's 'pinking' & not 'pinging'.

Not so. "Pinking", "pinging" and "knocking" are all interchangeable for the same phenomenon....depending on what part of the world you are.

The phenomenon occurs when air/fuel mixture in the cylinder has been ignited by the spark plug and the smooth burning is interrupted by the unburned mixture in the combustion chamber exploding before the flame front can reach it. The engineered combusting process stops, because of the explosion, before the optimum moment in the four-stroke cycle. The resulting shock wave reverberates in the combustion chamber, creating a characteristic metallic "pinging" sound, and pressures increase catastrophically. Hence the need for the sophisticated sensors and management systems. Internal combustion engines, fuel, automobile technology and drivers' habits have changed dramatically in the last 20 years.

[funfun]

Suppose when you sell View Talay Villas & View Talay Residences at such extortionate prices you can own 24 mil cars !!! and people want to buy into his latest venture ocean 1 and load his pockets even more.Maybe thats to buy his plane !! Jealous....No, amazed at his ability to rip people of so easy...yes.

EPG.

I am surprized more haven't posted similar statements to this one!

if i order anything here in thailand theres quite a good chance of it coming wrong!

most people dont speak english, cos its not england or germany!

my accent is broad yorkshire so people in england cant understand me!

so when i order somthing most thais cant understand what i want so i check what i get, and if it arrives wrong i do my best to correct it, cos im in a forign country!

what makes me think though, is a successfull buisness man with a very nice car, whos been in thailand for some time, lets an 4,000 bhat a month pump attendant lose with his car, while he not looking!

well lets hope the attendant dosent lose his job over this comunication problem!

[awayfoe]

bruno read and speak thai correctly since many years !!!

his ferrari is running correctly every night !

just an other way to make the money !!

[soundman]

Forget piston driven... Buy a turbine powerplant.... Increased power to weight ratio... Great top end speed.... And here's the kicker... It will run on just about anything... Kero is the best, but if there is no stock, just take a leek in the fuel tank after a heavy night on the booze. The turbine will still light off no probs...

Soundman.

[Rimmer]

bruno read and speak thai correctly since many years !!!

his ferrari is running correctly every night !

just an other way to make the money !!

Yep I hear it every night go past my house like dragster

[peacemakers]

I have an old Nissan 1994. 50 Km using more than half tank already. The petrol indicate that I should used 95. Anyone know what's the problem ? The car is running well with no problem.

[whatchamacallit]

I put regular unleaded gasoline into a Mercedez Wagon with a diesel engine. 1 minute into the drive the whole car shaked violently and started smoking. I immediately shut the car off and luckily didn't do any real damage - they had to drain and flush the fuel tank and the feul system, changed the feul filters and we're good to go again.

I am told if you use a lower octane fuel in a high performance engine, will cause a serious case of Valve knock, but noticing this, if the driver shuts the engine right away - it would be unlikely any serious damage would occur.

[Artisan]

I am told if you use a lower octane fuel in a high performance engine, will cause a serious case of Valve knock, but noticing this, if the driver shuts the engine right away - it would be unlikely any serious damage would occur.

No such phenomenon as "Valve Knock". Also, please see previous posts

Edited July 10, 2007 by Artisan

[markr]

At what point did this guy notice?

If straight away just drain the tank if he's so worried.

Modern engines are designed to run on various types of fuel, from good stuff in the uk to the really crap stuff such as you will find in spain etc.

The engine will automatically adjust the timing to compensate anyway, so, no problems

Mark

Edited July 10, 2007 by markr