konangrit Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Seeing as the last post on this subject went off topic I thought I'd open this one. Hopefully we can stay on topic as there are some interesting points to be made. A KFC on Ko Samet would be a tragedy would it not?. Not if it's in keeping with the local surroundings. There are many "global" business' in London such as McDonalds which have to keep their properties in Keeping with the local surroundings. In traditoinal facade with no yellow M outside. So there's a way you can have your Big Mac and eat it. Compromise people, just like the phone masts disguised as trees a KFC built to the same style as the surrounding buildings with no flashy advertisements or signs outside is surely acceptable, chai mai? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otherstuff1957 Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Acceptable - yes. As tasty as a street vendors fried chicken with Kao Neow - no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meemiathai Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 I think it is just modernization. Is watching TV or driving a car regarded as westernization? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p1p Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 I well remember the old days in the 60s, 70s and even early 80s when, to see an overweight Thai was unusual and something to be commented on. At that time, if one approached such people, they were almost all western, predominantly US educated and had a taste for Farang fast food. Nowadays there seem to be huge numbers of children suffering from obesity. This has occured since and as a result of American globalisation and companies such as McDonalds and KFC opening here. The first time I saw KFC in Thailand. Can't remember if it was late 70s or early 80s, but I attended a party thrown by a senior police officer in Bangkok. Pride of place in the center of the dinner table was a large box of fried chicken, with little packs of ketchup on a side plate. My heart sank like a stone. It seems the country has never got over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroll Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 "I think it is just modernization. Is watching TV or driving a car regarded as westernization?" That is a good point. There is a difference though. Adapting and integrating these influences is one thing, which I would call modernisation. But being flooded at accelerating speed with the offerings of multinational corporations to improve 'lifestyle' is what I'd call 'westernisation', consumerism in its worst manifestation, like feeding sweets to kids without telling them their teeth will rot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gentleman Scamp Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 I well remember the old days in the 60s, 70s and even early 80s when, to see an overweight Thai was unusual and something to be commented on. At that time, if one approached such people, they were almost all western, predominantly US educated and had a taste for Farang fast food.Nowadays there seem to be huge numbers of children suffering from obesity. This has occured since and as a result of American globalisation and companies such as McDonalds and KFC opening here. The first time I saw KFC in Thailand. Can't remember if it was late 70s or early 80s, but I attended a party thrown by a senior police officer in Bangkok. Pride of place in the center of the dinner table was a large box of fried chicken, with little packs of ketchup on a side plate. My heart sank like a stone. It seems the country has never got over it. Very true and very sad. The slender Thai will soon be a thing of the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autonomous_unit Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 It would be interesting to see this topic with more Thai viewpoints. I feel that many of the westerners are romanticising the Thailand of yore. The westerners likely to be in this forum might even be a self-selected bunch of romantics? When we were looking at old pictures of my father-in-law in front of his farm, my wife explained that he was so skinny because he was just starting on his land. He hardly ate because the children needed to eat what food there was. I can hardly celebrate the slender shape of people who are starving, while I can worry about the health of everyone who is learning to live with (relative) abundance. Should not the progressive goal be people living healthy lifestyles by choice rather than economic necessity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sendbaht Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 It's sad in deed. When I am with my in-laws children in Chiang Mai food comes up of course, and all yell "KFC KFC" . I say how about Kentucky Fried Chicken, " no uncle Don we want KFC" That part I laugh at because they do not know what KFC stands for, but the part I hate is the greasy unhealthy lunch they are about to eat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroll Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 "Should not the progressive goal be people living healthy lifestyles by choice rather than economic necessity?" Definatly, maybe you are right and we should wait for Thais to comment whether KFC and MCDonalds are the first choices for a healthy lifestyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gentleman Scamp Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 They already have. Obesity is a problem in Thailand but unfortunatly the American marketing machine has worked it's magic on the younger generation of Thai's - they just need to be educated now before it's too late and they start having cardiac arrests in their late twenties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinN Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 I well remember the old days in the 60s, 70s and even early 80s when, to see an overweight Thai was unusual and something to be commented on. At that time, if one approached such people, they were almost all western, predominantly US educated and had a taste for Farang fast food.Nowadays there seem to be huge numbers of children suffering from obesity. This has occurred since and as a result of American globalization and companies such as McDonald's and KFC opening here. The first time I saw KFC in Thailand. Can't remember if it was late 70s or early 80s, but I attended a party thrown by a senior police officer in Bangkok. Pride of place in the center of the dinner table was a large box of fried chicken, with little packs of ketchup on a side plate. My heart sank like a stone. It seems the country has never got over it. All very well and good, But this can not be blamed entirely on the westernization of Thailand. There are fat people in our village,my wife tells me that there have always been fat people,even before the farang was a real presence here,at first there were just the Brit loggers,but there were fat people. The Thai have had sweets long before we had farang here handing out candy and some of the Thai candy is so sweet I can't eat it, My father in law is a diabetic and he has never been around farang before,in fact I am the only one he has ever spoken to.And some of the people here have never ate at any fast food places and will not eat anything but Thai food.you see,we have no fast food places as such here. The building of shops and food outlets should be in compliance with the building laws and zoning codes set up by the municipality of their place,and I expect most are.If you do not like the looks of them,then by all means go before a council meeting and lodge a complaint or send one to the home office,there ain't a ###### thing you can do here on a farang forum,not even make it simple to get a visa. When I first started to roam around the world 50 years ago,there were fat people that I happen to notice in the far east,mid east,and near east, also in America it self, Canada and Alaska,I don't think that can be blamed on westernization. The only thing I can see that you care about is trying to blame a lot of things that were already here on a few of us that have only been here for the last 30 or 40 years. And if you really want a scenic view and some articulate structures,I can take and send you some pictures of true Thai architecture either here in our village or in the town.truly beautiful and well co-ordinated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon43 Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Just nipped back to the UK for a week. The number of overweight people (mainly women), that I see here compared to LoS is really high! I just walked through a shopping centre and EVERY woman that I saw was clearly overweight (and not pregnant etc). Of course, there were many guys that were fat as well. The cost of caring for all these people when they fall ill (and they are certainly far more likely to fall ill as a result of their obesity), is huge, and I sincerely hope that LoS does not end up full of fatties (at least not Thai fatties...) Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Obesity is or will become such a problem they will solve it chemically within the next 10 - 15 years.. Already trial that stimulate the Thyroid to simply not store fat and burn from fat reserves have had 30% body fat %'ages lost in 2 week animal trials.. Its not something thats going to kill off large proportions of the population.. The comment about 'hiding' KFC's and McD's etc behind normal facades... Does anyone see even the remotest possibility of this happening in Thailand ?? I mean the idea of conserving the look or having a development plan of an area is laughable when you see how Phuket is being paved over !! In fact (and I really dont want this to sound derogetory of Thai people) I dont even know if many Thais dont want to see global chains instead of mom and pop resturants.. To them it seems to smack of development and going into the future and modern world. Certain things are hard to grasp coming only a generation or two from extreemly 'rural' upbringings.. My Thai lady back in Europe always thought it was mad to see a house with a garden that could be keeping livestock, growing somethign edible or even bettre building another house and selling it !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boris Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Just nipped back to the UK for a week. The number of overweight people (mainly women), that I see here compared to LoS is really high! I just walked through a shopping centre and EVERY woman that I saw was clearly overweight (and not pregnant etc). Of course, there were many guys that were fat as well.The cost of caring for all these people when they fall ill (and they are certainly far more likely to fall ill as a result of their obesity), is huge, and I sincerely hope that LoS does not end up full of fatties (at least not Thai fatties...) Simon In the West there has for some time been a very striking correlation between obesity and social class, and more recently the tendency to smoke.In the UK there is an interesting sub-division paralleling social class in terms of the geographical and social divide between North and South.To put it in terms that even the simple minded can understand, the more ill-educated and proletarian you are the more likely you are to be a smoking fatty.Oddly enough in Thailand the reverse has traditionally applied (although I note that the upper and upper middle classes here are increasingly abandoning cigarettes) but it will not be long before the cult of being thin triumphs.Incidentally why are so many resident Farang so fat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mai Krap Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 You are all correct in the asumption that westernization leads to obiesity but just not in the way you think. First thing, the main reason people in Los were not as fat years ago was that many people just didnt have enough to eat much less too much to eat. There was no need for a health club membership or diet plan if you slaved away in rice patties or climed coconut trees for a living. In asia being fat has always been a signal of wealth. Wealthy people do not work in manual labor and they have the meens to provide an excess of nutrician. With modern farming techniqes suplying more food with less hands on labor and electricity to provide refrigiration and freezers for long term storage we have just put more food on the plate for the average person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroll Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 "With modern farming techniqes suplying more food with less hands on labor and electricity to provide refrigiration and freezers for long term storage we have just put more food on the plate for the average person." So far I don't disagree, please explain your thoughts further. Who is "we"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konangrit Posted July 5, 2004 Author Share Posted July 5, 2004 The human race? Oh sorry, forgot, he's American...... Just kidding before I get flamed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mai Krap Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 We in this instance refers to " People living and breathing on the planet earth". The cattle industry is a good example. in the past you just put bulls out in the pasture with cow and waited for calves to be born. Now before a modern rancher even buys a bull it is checked for fertility. No infertile bulls covering cows and not producing. Then comes artificial insemination. Sperm is collected from the bull and stablized "cooled and having a additive to thin and improve the time it is potent" then divided into straws. Cows are given a shot so they will all be ready for fertilization around the same time. The straws are then used to fertilize the cows. This helps to insure the cow is bred and to which bull. It also takes alot of stress off the bull as one bull is limeted to the amount of cows he can cover and by collecting and freezing the sperm over a period of time one bull can fertilize 200 or more cows in one morning. I will mention feed lots briefly, this is simply where cattle going to butcher are given a maximum nutricien to give the them the weight desired before slaughter. On to the butchers, They are just more sterilized in the butchering process in general " The longer it takes for bacteria to take hold the longer the shelf life". Then there is vacum packaging, refrigirated shipping, longterm storage"freezing". I could be much more detailed and long winded but this is a decent brief and yes these things are currently being practiced in Thailand to varying degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivinLOS Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 why are so many resident Farang so fat? Beer ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbkudu Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 We in this instance refers to " People living and breathing on the planet earth". The cattle industry is a good example. in the past you just put bulls out in the pasture with cow and waited for calves to be born. Now before a modern rancher even buys a bull it is checked for fertility. No infertile bulls covering cows and not producing. Then comes artificial insemination. Sperm is collected from the bull and stablized "cooled and having a additive to thin and improve the time it is potent" then divided into straws. Cows are given a shot so they will all be ready for fertilization around the same time. The straws are then used to fertilize the cows. This helps to insure the cow is bred and to which bull. It also takes alot of stress off the bull as one bull is limeted to the amount of cows he can cover and by collecting and freezing the sperm over a period of time one bull can fertilize 200 or more cows in one morning. I will mention feed lots briefly, this is simply where cattle going to butcher are given a maximum nutricien to give the them the weight desired before slaughter. On to the butchers, They are just more sterilized in the butchering process in general " The longer it takes for bacteria to take hold the longer the shelf life". Then there is vacum packaging, refrigirated shipping, longterm storage"freezing". I could be much more detailed and long winded but this is a decent brief and yes these things are currently being practiced in Thailand to varying degrees. You're leaving out some important things in your plug for industrial farming. In order to 'mass produce' animals to feed people more food, a farmer must use vast amounts of chemicals, medicines and various hormones to keep the animals from developing illnesses. many of these animals that are kept in feed lots are so highly concentrated in number that they still become sick with the added medicines. These additives in meat have a direct effect on human beings. It is not a coincidence that cancer rates in the US are skyrocketing along with the massive use of pesticides, hormones, and other chemical additives in animals and plants. One of the primary causes of mad cow disease was the feeding of meat byproducts and corn to cattle because these are cheap. These cows never walk in a pasture and eat green grass. Cows are herbivores by design of nature, their stomachs like plant material, grass. When they are fed meat products and corn, to increase fat content, their digestive tracts break down and they die. They only way to keep them from dying is to pump them with dangerouse antibiotics. These additives may not have an immediate effect on humans, but they will effect people in the future and effect future generations. Old world farming methods may be less profitable and slower but they are far healthier for the animal and the human that eats that animal. Probably 99% of the American fast food chains rely on industrial farming sources for their products. There is a reason why the American government will not provide universal healthcare for its citizens; it would cost them billions of dollars. Now tell me that there is not a business relationship between private healthcare providers and the fast food industry in the United States. If Thailand is not careful, they will fall into the same health abyss that America and the UK are in at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mai Krap Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Yea I left out alot of stuff because most of it is boreing and I didnt want to get off TOPIC. The question was why are people in LOS fatter now than they were in the past. I tried to awnser this. Last year Thailand dumped a bunch of pork on Laos that was treated with something to make it red, The government of Laos tried to prevent this but the people wanted it anyway. When your hungry you dont care about unhealthy side effects on yourself or your environment. That is what you worry about when you have a belly full of food. No I do not think greed and corruption is westernization it has been here since Budda walked the countryside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDN Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 My Thai lady back in Europe always thought it was mad to see a house with a garden that could be keeping livestock, growing somethign edible or even bettre building another house and selling it !!! The nice grass at the back of my house has now been ripped up. Sugar cane, papaya and other "green stuff" now grows there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbkudu Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Yea I left out alot of stuff because most of it is boreing and I didnt want to get off TOPIC. The question was why are people in LOS fatter now than they were in the past. I tried to awnser this. Last year Thailand dumped a bunch of pork on Laos that was treated with something to make it red, The government of Laos tried to prevent this but the people wanted it anyway. When your hungry you dont care about unhealthy side effects on yourself or your environment. That is what you worry about when you have a belly full of food. No I do not think greed and corruption is westernization it has been here since Budda walked the countryside. Sorry to bore you with my boring post. Didn't mean to get off TOPIC. Bon appetite! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDN Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Now tell me that there is not a business relationship between private healthcare providers and the fast food industry in the United States. If Thailand is not careful, they will fall into the same health abyss that America and the UK are in at the moment. What kind of business relationship do you think exists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbkudu Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 What do fast food chains and hospitals have in common? Obesity, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, and insurance salesmen, that's what. If you can't see it, then you must be blinded by the light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stroll Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Err, Ok, but it really isn't that obvious a connection, I haven't thought about it before you mentioned it. Is this a suspicion you have or are there facts to back it up? Sorry, perhaps another topic for the bearpit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_Pat_Pong Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 Err, Ok, but it really isn't that obvious a connection, I haven't thought about it before you mentioned it. Is this a suspicion you have or are there facts to back it up? Sorry, perhaps another topic for the bearpit. I think that this idea is a bit wild ... even for the bearpit. Mammoth conspiracies on the world stage. Hmmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anono555 Posted July 5, 2004 Share Posted July 5, 2004 ?????????????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
konangrit Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 Just glad that this post kept on topic unlike the last one .... well done people Fast food sponsered by US hospitals? That is the most bizarre conspiracy theory I've ever heard. Did brighten up my graveyard shift though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinN Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 What do fast food chains and hospitals have in common? Obesity, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, and insurance salesmen, that's what. If you can't see it, then you must be blinded by the light. There is no insurance co. in the world that will say "yea go on and feed em shit to put em in the hospital so we as the insurance co., who pay the bills can get rich" And the reason that the US gov't doesn't furnish health care is that it is a democracy and not a socialist gov't, As in "socialized medicine" And as far as food being "unhealthy", It seems to me that stuff has been made healthier,Just in my life time the age expectancy has went up over 25%. As to feedlots, I can remember my grandfather bringing in an older cow,putting her in a box stall and my job was to see that she had plenty of water and grain with extra salt added to make her thirsty,she would stand there,eat/drink til she was gaining weight right along,then he would come in and shoot her between the eyes,never better meat on the table. If you are wondering why you now live to 95 when you used to live to 47,maybe blame it on the quality of food. The USA has always had feedlots,but never the hotbed of mad cow disease,that is in eorope, http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=10311 take a look at that link.I think that some people just want to blame someone else for their death,if ya live long enough,you gonna die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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