Westernisation

[plachon]

Yea I left out alot of stuff because most of it is boreing and I didnt want to get off TOPIC. The question was why are people in LOS fatter now than they were in the past. I tried to awnser this.

Last year Thailand dumped a bunch of pork on Laos that was treated with something to make it red, The government of Laos tried to prevent this but the people wanted it anyway. When your hungry you dont care about unhealthy side effects on yourself or your environment. That is what you worry about when you have a belly full of food.

No I do not think greed and corruption is westernization it has been here since Budda walked the countryside.

What a load of crap you write Mai Krap, if you'll permit me to comment. The "boreing" stuff you leave out is some of the most relevant to this thread and shows up your extreme bias on the subject. You failed to answer why people in Thailand are fatter now than in the past, and likewise gave a very lopsided plug for the industrial farming-fast food complex. It's all very well saying isn't modern farming methods with its chemicals, computers, genetic modification and minimal labour requirements both incredible and wonderful at putting food on the plates of the wealthy, overfed and powerful 20 % of humanity (mostly in the West, but increasingly too in ascendant east Asia), but like any accounting system the costs have to be factored in too. These costs are usually entirely ignored by the multi-national corporations that benefit from the present situation and through controlling the food chain from producer to consumer, but externalised on the environment and society (usually the poorest members). Hence, mkbudu is right in many ways about the links he sees in those companies that are profiting from the present status quo and have no real desire to change the symptoms we're talking about for the better.

On the subject of dumped pork, Laos and hungry people over "there", more tripe and offal I'm afraid. Are you trying to suggest that Laotians couldn't reject this tainted pork you heard about, because they were so hungry and would starve other wise? Hahahaha! 1/ A UNDP Development Index table I read not so long ago stated that the average calorie consumption in Laos was higher than in Thailand. 2/ Because Laos monetarily is poorer than Thailand, the poorest sectors of Lao society cannot afford meat from the market of any description (hence, they are a more self-sufficient economy), 3/ The government of Laos, can choose at anytime to accept or reject imports from Thailand, irrespeective of what "the people" think (it is unelected anyways).

Finally, since when did Buddha walk the countryside "here" pray tell?

[mbkudu]

Just glad that this post kept on topic unlike the last one .... well done people

Fast food sponsered by US hospitals? That is the most bizarre conspiracy theory I've ever heard. Did brighten up my graveyard shift though

Bumrungrad hospital has a McDonalds in it, nuff said.

[mbkudu]

At the end of the day, the bottom line is: Countries that can afford to buy fast food

are getting fatter and more unhealthy. One of the reasons for longer life is not the consumption of Big macs, but of the vast aray of medicines that are available to people. I don't have links so you'll have to look it up yourself, but you would be surprised to know the interconnectedness of the fast food industry, health providers and pharmacudical companies. Bad health means a lot of money for a lot of people.

[stroll]

What does this prove?

And Bumrungrad is under English management, as far as I know.

[mbkudu]

What does this prove?

And Bumrungrad is under English management, as far as I know.

I think that it may prove that there is a lack of ethics at this hospital. They know full well that this food is #### for the body, but they allow McDonald's to be there because it makes them a lot of money. In a way the hospital is preparing new customers for its business in the future.

[konangrit]

Sorry for going off on a tangent, but felt I had to reply to this post.

And the reason that the US gov't doesn't furnish health care is that it is a democracy and not a socialist gov't, As in "socialized medicine"

You seem to infer that democracies cannot offer free healthcare or be socialist. These are basic principles in many left of center democratic governments. Your view of democracy is very narrow minded indeed. Almost undemocratic infact.

If you are wondering why you now live to 95 when you used to live to 47,maybe blame it on the quality of food.

This statement is blatantly false, there is no country in th world with a life expectancy anywhere near 95.

The USA has always had feedlots,but never the hotbed of mad cow disease,that is in eorope,

Cases of BSE are on the increase in the USA, as opposed to Europe.

[stroll]

The Us are a representative republic, not the same as a democracy.

And I wouldn't be so proud of it not having a healthcare system, rather an appaling state of affairs for any civilised country.

Uhps, getting sidetracked again...

I take your point, mbkudu, I agree that a McDonald's isn't the right thing for a hospital, and there might be commercial interests linking the mentioned business sectors, but I am not at all convinced this is a concious conspiracy to make us all ill. With this logic, dentists' association should be subsidising sugar plantages.

Still off-topic, I'llshut up.

[plachon]

The Us are a representative republic, not the same as a democracy.

And I wouldn't be so proud of it not having a healthcare system, rather an appaling state of affairs for any civilised country.

Uhps, getting sidetracked again...

I take your point, mbkudu, I agree that a McDonald's isn't the right thing for a hospital, and there might be commercial interests linking the mentioned business sectors, but I am not at all convinced this is a concious conspiracy to make us all ill. With this logic, dentists' association should be subsidising sugar plantages.

Still off-topic, I'llshut up.

Nearly, but not far off stroll..............the UK suggar mammoths (tate & lyle and Silver Spoon) have long fought for the right to keep Brits unhealthy by sponsoring all sorts of people and institutions "round the back door". One example, is quietly making payments to TV chefs in return for them showing dishes that are laced with sugar. It doesn't even have to be that companies brand (as they have a virtual monopoly anyway), so long as conspicuous sugar consumption is being promoted. Very clever and explains why Anthony Worral Thompson and a few million others in UK are such fat b............s.

Similarly MacD's and Coca Cola / Pepsi sponsor schools; the latter fighting to get their brand drink machines placed in schools exclusively (under the table sweeteners ( ) to Principals without principles works a treat) and other such unsavoury methods to catch 'em young and hold 'em for life. Quite ingenious the marketers in corporations, who'll also tell you: "You can't stop globablisation".

[autonomous_unit]

Many on this thread seem fixated on the trees rather than considering the forest.

The point I tried to make last night, echoing an earlier statement that the troubles in Thailand are as much "modernization" as "westernization", is that negative issues like obesity and wasteful consumption are intricately linked with positive effects of modern life. Particularly, they are evidence of "upward mobility" as people who had not are suddenly having! The same things happened in the U.S. and western Europe after WWII as a middle-class expanded with little idea of how to live with these new benefits.

My observation: A person who grows up and learns living skills in an environment of scarcity will often tend towards gluttony and even hoarding when presented with an abundance. It takes significant psychological adjustment to change your life strategies to best cope with the new environment. Some people adapt readily and some never seem to. This sort of change can cause great generational disconnect in a family when the changes occur in only a matter of years or a decade.

I could go on with my opinions on how or why this seems to occur, but I would rather just assume it is the case for the purpose of this discussion. You can observe this with staples (rice, soap, basic clothing) as well as with "global" branded products, so I also do not entirely buy the suggestion that mass marketing is to blame. I think people would just find something else to over-consume if brands were to disappear overnight.

My question: Are people concerned about these effects suggesting that society in Thailand (and elsewhere in developing or developed countries) would be better off scrapping the modern economy and reverting to a situation of relative scarcity? Do the negative effects outweigh the positive benefits for quality of life, healthcare, etc. (bearing in mind that much of the current acceleration in science, medicine and technology is afforded by this efficient global economy)?

Assuming most people would answer "no", I think the real question we face is how to help ourselves adjust to this modernization. How do we teach each other to live lives of healthful moderation through choice and action when most of us are not quite sure how to do it ourselves?

[Mai Krap]

Plachon if you go back to my original post and read it again I in no way said modern farming practices were good or bad but simply said it puts more food in peoples plates.

Laos has everything to do with Thailand and saying that is doesnt is like say Texas doesnt have anything to do with Mexico. If you believe for one minute that the average person in Laos has more food than the average person in Thailand you have either never been there or you ate lunch with the communist party.

If people want to raise he11 they created a separate forum and It would be nice to see you there. The Bear Pit . I for one have called for a truce here and vowed to be nice on thai visa. Think of it as family entertainment.

[Mai Krap]

Mr Unit, You are absulutly correct. Thank you for the reply minus the spin.

[john b good]

They already have.

Obesity is a problem in Thailand but unfortunatly the American marketing machine has worked it's magic on the younger generation of Thai's - they just need to be educated now before it's too late and they start having cardiac arrests in their late twenties.

Scamp. I am afraid you're talking a whole load of sh*t.

All McDonalds, KFC, Pizza Hut, etc., outlets in Thailand are (as they are most everywhere else) franchised and here in Thailand apart from "big Bills" Pizza Company are owned and operated by Thai's.

It's just another case of Thais (who are driven by the almight baht) exploiting Thais. "taking their money and making them fat"

Don't blame it on the yanks. They are responsible for all the other ills in the world (like the ME crisis, motorcars, icons like Brando etc.,)

I would agree on one thing which is that there has never been a globally recognised icon that has originated in Thailand so I guess "yes" it must be those yanks again.

p.s. I have hosted on more than one occasion Thai families to big nosh ups in restaurants and even whilst their offspring have been decidedly overweight they take great delight in seeing how much more that the kid can eat without (or before) evacuating his/her stomach contents.

It's either that or the delight comes from seeing just how much the expats wallet will stand before imploding.