Help With A Word

[puuchai299]

Hi,can anyone help me with how they think the word kosanar,which i think means advertising,in thai,would be correctly spelt in phonetic thai,if there is a correct way to spell in phonetic.or at least what the way a thai would probably be able to recognize it spelt phoneticaly.thanks to anyone who can help.

[withnail]

โฆษณา

kôht-sà-naa

[ V ] advertise ; publicize ; announce ; broadcast (courtesy of www.thai2english.com)

Don't think that any way of transliterating Thai into English will enable a native Thai speaker to understand it. Your best bet is to copy and paste the Thai script and print it out.

[puuchai299]

Thankyou for your reply withnail, very helpful....

[meadish_sweetball]

As a side note, the tone on the second syllable (sa), while a low tone according to the tone rules, is usually reduced to a mid tone in spoken Thai.

[soundman]

And without the "t" as put forward in the phonetic by thai2english.

[withnail]

According to Mary Haas the t is optional and there are two pronunciations. I'll be honest I'd have probably said it without though.

[DavidHouston]

According to Mary Haas the t is optional and there are two pronunciations. I'll be honest I'd have probably said it without though.

Of course, there is only one "official" authority on pronunciation, that is, The Royal Institute. Their on-line dictionary has:

โฆษณา [โคดสะนา] ก. เผยแพร่ข้อความออกไปยังสาธารณชน ("to disseminate information to the public")

The pronunciation is [โคด-สะ-นา] which does show the "t" sound at the end of the first syllable.

This is not the most egregious example of pronunciation difficulties. Consider the word for university, มหาวิทยาลัย [ma-haa-wi-ta-yaa-lai] which is pronounced by many students today as "มะ-หา-ลัย" [ma-hal-lai]. There are many others. Any suggestions?

[Khon Baan Nok]

This is not the most egregious example of pronunciation difficulties. Consider the word for university, มหาวิทยาลัย [ma-haa-wi-ta-yaa-lai] which is pronounced by many students today as "มะ-หา-ลัย" [ma-hal-lai]. There are many others. Any suggestions?

Off track, but the Thai word มหา วิทยา ลัย is the exact equivalent of the Sanskrit word from which it is derived, and which means great+learning+place.

[meadish_sweetball]

According to Mary Haas the t is optional and there are two pronunciations. I'll be honest I'd have probably said it without though.

I hear both used, but I guess to be on the safe side it is always a good idea to follow the advice of the Royal Institute.

[soundman]

According to Mary Haas the t is optional and there are two pronunciations. I'll be honest I'd have probably said it without though.

I hear both used, but I guess to be on the safe side it is always a good idea to follow the advice of the Royal Institute.

How long is a piece of string?

My pronunciation of correct English leaves a lot to be desired. And learning Thai I consider what is generally spoken as to be the level to aspire to.

So when I hear cohsanah, that's what I think should be used rather than kohtsanah, when spoken by the farang, might not be understandable.

And on top of this I have just tested five educated thai speakers & none pronouce it with a 't'.

Sometimes, I think the the Royal's thai is a little confusing when most of the countries subjects do not understand it themselves without years of extra curicular education.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[meadish_sweetball]

Are you sure we are talking about the same thing, Soundman?

The Royal Institute are not advocating a 't' of the sort that would end the word 'caught' in English, just the syllable final sound that is commonly heard (or not heard unless you know what to listen for) at the end of words like ราช, บาท etc.

[soundman]

Are you sure we are talking about the same thing, Soundman?

The Royal Institute are not advocating a 't' of the sort that would end the word 'caught' in English, just the syllable final sound that is commonly heard (or not heard unless you know what to listen for) at the end of words like ราช, บาท etc.

Yeah we are talking about the same thing. That closed sort of clickey "t" sound after the consonant in the syllable as in ราช. In the word โฆษณา the first syllable is โฆ - "coh" as I have been informed, not "coht" & after asking the question of this "t" business with the Thai's I spoke to & pointing out the example of thai2english is simply not correct.

It presents an interesting situation, because who is going to argue with the "official" interpreter? Which way should we learn to speak? For me, I don't own a thai - eng. dictionary or talking dic., my dictionary is my wife, friends & office staff, most well educated, but all from central NE Thailand.

To tell the plain honest truth, if I could get the pronunciation & tonal effect near 50% correct I'd be happy & I've been told that my spoken Thai is clearer than 95% of foreigners living here.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[DavidHouston]

I did not intend to mislead. I believe the issue of the Thai phonetic rendering, Thai transliteration if you will, is about tone, not consonant. The final "t" or "ษ" or phonetic "ด" is to make the syllable sound out as a falling tone. Without the little clickity thing put into in the phonetic pronunciation (although it sound may not be specifically articulated in practice) in the RI dictionary, the tone would be mid, not falling.

Let me know if this is incorrect. Thanks.

Edited July 5, 2007 by DavidHouston

[Rikker]

I think your intuition is right, David. Using Thai for the phonetic renderings in a dictionary has its drawbacks, and this is a good example. Without extra symbols (or extra explanation), there's no way to indicate a syllable final /s/. So the RID's transliteration gives the correct tone.

Of course, it's possible they are also prescribing that it be pronounced with a clear final /t/ in the syllable, too. But that doesn't mean anyone pronounces it that way.

Dropping the /t/ at the syllable border seems to be a common sandhi effect in spoken Thai. So far as I've noticed, every word with ซ ศ ษ or ส at the mid-word syllable boundary commonly gets this treatment: ศาสนา วาสนา ศาสดา คริสเตียน โฆษณา ดุษฎี กฤษณา เทศบาล ทัศนคติ วิศวกรรม. Even พิซซ่า often (if not dominantly) gets this treatment, despite the fact that it has the /ts/ combination in English! (i.e. English /phit-sa/ > Thai /phis-sa/)

It may vary depending on the word, though, whether carefully enunciating the /t/ is seen as ชัด or not. For คริสเตียน, for example, there's really no way to add the /t/ without sounding wrong to me--it's got to be /khris-tian/. That's probably because it's a loan. But then technically, โฆษณา and all these other words are Indic loans.

Edited July 5, 2007 by Rikker

[tgeezer]

It may vary depending on the word, though, whether carefully enunciating the /t/ is seen as ชัด or not. For คริสเตียน, for example, there's really no way to add the /t/ without sounding wrong to me--it's got to be /khris-tian/. That's probably because it's a loan. But then technically, โฆษณา and all these other words are Indic loans.

There is no 's' in the word 'Christian' in spoken Thai, some who speak English might use it to us but surely it would be an affectation between Thais just as to Pari for Paris would be between English speakers.

[Richard W]

I think your intuition is right, David. Using Thai for the phonetic renderings in a dictionary has its drawbacks, and this is a good example. Without extra symbols (or extra explanation), there's no way to indicate a syllable final /s/.

The old RID on-line, which gave a phonetic respelling for all words, used ส or ซ (I forget which) to indicate syllable-final /s/. My usual example was ก๊าซ, for which both the pronunciation with /t/ and the pronunciation with /s/ were given.

There is no 's' in the word 'Christian' in spoken Thai, some who speak English might use it to us but surely it would be an affectation between Thais just as to Pari for Paris would be between English speakers.

Listen to the clip at คริสเตียน. (The written pronuciation does not agree with the clip.)

I will agree that the clip given for คริสต์ศักราช​​ (or rather, its compound) seems odd, having [H]khris [M]ta [L]sak [M]ka [F]raat, whereas I'm sure the usual pronunciation is [H]khrit [M]ta [L]sak [M]ka [F]raat. What, pray, is the karan doing in this word?

[DavidHouston]

"The old RID on-line, which gave a phonetic respelling for all words, used ส or ซ (I forget which) to indicate syllable-final /s/. My usual example was ก๊าซ, for which both the pronunciation with /t/ and the pronunciation with /s/ were given."

Richard,

You raise a good question about the word "gas". Is it "แก๊ซ" or "ก๊าซ"? Quoting from the on-line RID, to which you made reference:

ก๊าซ น. อากาศธาตุ, (วิทยา) สถานะหนึ่งของสสาร รูปร่างและปริมาตรไม่คงที่ ขึ้นอยู่กับภาชนะที่บรรจุ, เรียกไฟซึ่งเกิดจากการจุดอะเซทิลีน ซึ่งได้จากก้อนแคลเซียมคาร์ไบด์ทําปฏิกิริยากับน้ำว่า ไฟก๊าซ, แก๊ส ก็ว่า. (อ. gas). [emphasis added]

The new Matichon dictionary has a double heading before the definition: "ก๊าซ, แก็ซ" as if they are interchangeable. It could be that Thais who pronounce the word in the latter manner are influenced by Midwestern American speech patterns. Also, in the U.S., we use the word "gas" as a diminuitive for "gasoline", something I think is not found in British or Thai speech (benzene still being very common for น้ำมัน).

Down here in the South of Thailand, we do not have natural gas as a motor fuel. What is the common pronunciation of "gas" in Bangkok, "ก๊าซ" or "แก็ซ"? And, does this term refer to multiple types of fuels, e.g., LPG, LNG, cooking gas, gasoline, or others?

Thanks.

[Rikker]

There is no 's' in the word 'Christian' in spoken Thai, some who speak English might use it to us but surely it would be an affectation between Thais just as to Pari for Paris would be between English speakers.

I imagine this is true for the particular subdialect you are familiar with--i.e., a certain church or sect of Christianity in Thailand. What geographic area you hearing it pronounced /khit-tian/ in? Is that a common pronunciation outside Bangkok, perhaps? I'm in Bangkok, and the Thai Christians I'm familiar with here, in several sects, pronounce this as /khris-tian/ or perhaps more commonly /khis-tian/. But I have heard /khit-tian/, I think.

Part of my original point was to say that I don't ever hear /khrit-sa-tian/--usually just /khris-tian/. I've also heard this pronunciation from many Buddhist Thais, who ask questions like "What's the difference between คริสเตียน (Protestant) and คริสตัง (Catholic)?" And They almost always pronounce the /s/. In the case of คริสตัง, I've heard /khis-tang/, /khis-sa-tang/ and /khit-tang/ (also sometimes with the /r/). The latter one I've also heard used as the basis for a joke about Catholic collection plates--a play on คริสตัง/คิดตังค์--to charge money.

I will agree that the clip given for คริสต์ศักราช​ ​ (or rather, its compound) seems odd, having [H]khris [M]ta [L]sak [M]ka [F]raat, whereas I'm sure the usual pronunciation is [H]khrit [M]ta [L]sak [M]ka [F]raat. What, pray, is the karan doing in this word?

I think the Royal Institute is off base with its prescribed spelling in this case. In RID, we have คริสต์ศักราช คริสต์ศาสนา คริสต์ศาสนิกชน and yet คริสตจักร (although these mostly aren't main entries). I don't use the karan in any of these, personally, and many don't. The formal name of the bible, พระคริสตธรรมคัมภีร์ is more commonly spelled without a karan, for example. I think this highlights one of the problems with language regulatory agencies, because if they are the authority for all spelling, then when you get into linguistic niches like the Christian community in Thailand, they should defer to what is actually used.

The general public doesn't care too much about what the Royal Institute prescribes anyway, though. There are a lot of failed ศัพท์บัญญัต---take วิดีทัศน์, for example. Chamnong Thongprasert came up with it as an alternative to วิดีโอ, complete with an explanation of how each syllable has a proper Indic root. Google them both, and you get 77,000 hits for the official term, and more than 2,000,000 for the popular term. Oh, snap!

Edited July 10, 2007 by Rikker

[Rikker]

The old RID on-line, which gave a phonetic respelling for all words, used ส or ซ (I forget which) to indicate syllable-final /s/. My usual example was ก๊าซ, for which both the pronunciation with /t/ and the pronunciation with /s/ were given.

You're right--you just have to explain to Thai users that in the phonetic rendering, this actually represents /s/, because it's so ingrained that it's equivalent to ด in this context.

Is ซ used in the phonetics in RID99 anywhere?

You raise a good question about the word "gas". Is it "แก๊ซ" or "ก๊าซ"? Quoting from the on-line RID, to which you made reference:

ก๊าซ น. อากาศธาตุ, (วิทยา) สถานะหนึ่งของสสาร รูปร่างและปริมาตรไม่คงที่ ขึ้นอยู่กับภาชนะที่บรรจุ, เรียกไฟซึ่งเกิดจากการจุดอะเซทิลีน ซึ่งได้จากก้อนแคลเซียมคาร์ไบด์ทําปฏิกิริยากับน้ำว่า ไฟก๊าซ, แก๊ส ก็ว่า. (อ. gas). [emphasis added]

The new Matichon dictionary has a double heading before the definition: "ก๊าซ, แก็ซ" as if they are interchangeable. It could be that Thais who pronounce the word in the latter manner are influenced by Midwestern American speech patterns. Also, in the U.S., we use the word "gas" as a diminuitive for "gasoline", something I think is not found in British or Thai speech (benzene still being very common for น้ำมัน).

Down here in the South of Thailand, we do not have natural gas as a motor fuel. What is the common pronunciation of "gas" in Bangkok, "ก๊าซ" or "แก็ซ"? And, does this term refer to multiple types of fuels, e.g., LPG, LNG, cooking gas, gasoline, or others?

I'm not Richard, but I'll say what I know.

I don't have Matichon with me today, but that's a typo where you've written แก็ซ, right? I've only ever seen แก๊ซ and ก๊าซ, that I can recall.

In my experience, แก๊ซ is more common, and refers to either cooking gas (what is that--propane? butane?) and the ethanol that tuk-tuks and many taxis use for fuel. You have to modify your vehicle for that--hence the fuel tank in many taxi trunks. แก๊ซโซฮอล refers to the ethanol-gasoline blend (usually a 10/90 mix) that most gas stations around here have these days, no vehicle modification required (but I still don't trust it).

So for gasoline, น้ำมัน is still the general term, but doesn't seem to include แก๊ซ that taxis/tuk-tuks use, which has its own fueling stations. เบนซีนเก้าห้า (benzine 95) refers to the premium gas--both it and แก๊ซโซฮอล have 95 octane ratings, so เบนซีน makes it clear you mean the non-ethanol fuel, and 95 differentiates it from the 91 octane gas. So, around here you'd say either เก้าเอ็ดเต็มถัง/เบนซีนเก้าเห้าเต็มถัง/แก๊ซโซฮอลเต็มถัง for a fill-up, depending on what you wanted.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Rikker

[DavidHouston]

I don't have Matichon with me today, but that's a typo where you've written แก็ซ, right? I've only ever seen แก๊ซ and ก๊าซ, that I can recall.

Thanks, Rikker, it was a typo; those darn elements are only a bishop's move away from each other.

These same terms are also used in a scientific sense; hence, this from Wikipedia, regarding the "gaseous" state:

"แก๊ส หรือ ก๊าซ (gas) เป็นสถานะหนึ่งของสสาร (อันได้แก่ ของแข็ง ของเหลว แก๊ส และพลาสมา) ซึ่งจะกลายเป็นของแข็งได้เมื่อได้รับอุณหภูมิเพิ่มขึ้น"

I guess this is a case of "some say tomato; some say tomato . . . "