Spin Off From "story Of My Thai Citizenship Application" Thread

[BAF]

so you dont realy have an income that you can declare??

AFAIK according to Thai laws rental/investment incomes don't qualify.

I have mentioned it THRICE yet you still fail to address it. Heeeeeelloooooo..?

but if you have enough funds in the bank then this is enough as well.

The ONLY way to get 1 year extensions is to show a certifiable combined monthly income of not less than 40,000 Baht.

Funds in the bank (I have around 300,000 Euro in my Italian bank accounts) will, at best, get you multiple entries non-imm O.

I dont know who gave you advice but I suggest you try someone better.

If you think you are that someone better answer the above.

Besides, I have never known of any one getting PR without having been working (or HEAVILY investing) in Thailand. While in theory possible, there is a point system and ample discretionary powers granted to examining officers that in practice prevent that. Is there any succesful case here?

sorry mate that is BS. you probably havent been getting good advice and you definatly dont know the system or the law. As such i once again recomend you to get a good lawyer. not a real estate or a comercial lawyer but a lawyer that specialises in imigration.

So? Have you got your PR without having been working (or HEAVILY investing) in Thailand??

so what is your point?? that Italy is better?? ok i belive you.

so if italy is so good then stay there.

No my point is that we "farangs" should start publicizing (as opposed to the hiding and the justifying folks like you are currently doing) the unfair treatment we are subjected to in Thailand and should demand our politicians to RECIPROCATE it as a means to make Thailand change its racist, xenophobic and discriminatory ways.

but if you wish to come to thailand... then play by the rules and get your self a lawyer that can do it for you. whining and bitching on this forum is not going to get you a PR

No lawyer can do it any other way than by tricking the laws. IF you actually answered my arguments you might realize it by yourself...

[steveromagnino]

first i didi not wish to argue with you but only sugget that you mabe missing the point the

thailand has the right to its imigration rules and if you want to live in thailand then you better take a lawyer to halp you sort this out.

It's you who is missing the point of this thread which is that we have the right to our immigration rules as well.

LET'S TREAT THE THAIS LIKE THEY TREAT US AND LET'S SEE IF THEIR (AND YOUR) TUNE CHANGES...

So.... can I take it from the royal 'we' that you are actually someone with some real power to change Italian immigration law?

This would come as news to me; from what I recall of your past posting, you are some sort of academic.

Or...is this more said out of the forlorn hope that some sort of 'eye for an eye' justice based on your own warped understanding of immigration law and fairness between two countries will somehow make Thailand change immigration laws to suit yourself better?

I will ask again - have you spent any time contacting anyone actually relevant to this issue e.g. Ambassador, Dept of Immigration, etc, or is this simply sounding off and complaining?

I think the fundamental problem you will have is that many farangs come from countries OTHER than Thailand, with higher tax rates, higher unemployment, more social problems, inability to sleep with prostitutes, inability to get involved with hot women, inability to launch their own businesses due to lack of market size etc etc. Many of them recognise the inherent lack of fairness and possibility of a few exceptions in immigration regulations between countries. But there are some differences between the countries that they like. In fact, presumably it is the differences that draws them to Thailand. Therefore...I think your hopes of a great farang uprising which suddenly allows a bunch of plumbers, lawyers and so forth to descend upon Isaan and buy up all the land; start 100% owned businesses and stay as long as you wish will never happen.

Am I correct in thinking that your view of immigration law is that Italy is entitled to carefully pick and choose visitors to Italy due to the risk of overstay? So you don't want to let in people who will work? But on the flip side, you feel that Thailand should have exactly the same standards for entering Thailand for Italians as, say, France does? But you want both countries to be 'equal'?

Let me know whether you are allowed to own in Singapore. Whether you can become a Japanese citizen. Closer to home, let me know with your money how easy it is for you to become a resident of Monaco.

Funny really. People emmigrating to New Zealand (where I grew up) use immgration lawyers, to ensure that they get in and meet the requirements. Yet you consider using a lawyer to do the same for you and to recommend an appropriate structure here to be somehow trickery. I hope and trust you don't use an accountant or lawyer in the rest of your life!

[BAF]

Bravo! *Applause* Here here here.

You keep posting (crap) in this thread yet keep failing to address my answer to something YOU YOURSELF asked me on the other thread.

Whining and bitching never gets you anything in Thailand.

I am not trying to get fairness IN Thailand, I'm trying to get fairness FROM Thailand.

I don't expect you to understand what I mean (I've only been repeating it here half a dozens times after all...).

To gain status in Thailand you have to make some life choices, stay here, pay tax, get off your arse and do something about it - even if it does mean following all those horrible rules. Then, anyone can get PR and even become a Thai citizen.

You and highdiver keep posting this daydreaming stuff and fail to talk in practical terms about the details of my situation.

I HAVE TO WORK IN THAILAND TO ACHIEVE WHAT YOU RAVE ABOUT.

I ask you the same I have asked to highdiver: I have never known of any one getting PR without having been working (or HEAVILY investing) in Thailand. While in theory possible, there is a point system and ample discretionary powers granted to examining officers that in practice prevent that. Is there any succesful case here?

On the subject of whining, do people in this group realise that most countries in the western world reject certain categories of would-be immigrants on medical grounds, or on the grounds that they have nothing to offer society? How absolutely terrible! People with special needs actually get refused visas???? What awful discrimination!!!

Do people in the smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologist group realize that what they think applies to "most countries in the Western world" applies in reality to most countries in the world.

Your loved Thailand does exactly the same. How absolutely terrible! People with special needs actually get refused visas???? What awful discrimination!!!

Moreover, retired folks in Thailand who get diseases like AIDS could see (IIRC documented on Thaivisa as well) their next 1 year extension legally refused! THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN THE WEST.

Once you are a resident we don't deport you because you get ill.

Tell you what, let's all move to Italy - we all believe that it is so much better than Thailand. But wait! Hang on a second. I wonder why the poster here with the chip on his shoulder keeps carping on about getting status in Thailand, a country that he despises and calls a banana republic, when he is in his Italian Utopia already? He makes no sense to me.

It's because you keep avoiding answering my arguments.

Some people want to have their cake and eat it.

And some other people want a bit of justice and fairness.

A farang can't understand that.

A Westerner does.

Thailand couldn't care less.

How true...

[BAF]

Yes, and the immigration rules suddenly become their most important matters.

In this very thread there are 2 other replies from me to 2 of your similarly inane posts which still await an answer.

Before flooding the thread with yet more inane posts it would be best for you to answer them.

Don't follow dbrenn's trolling habit.

[BAF]

Yes, I'm for real. And yes, apparently you made a life choice that didn't include long term planning for where you would want to live.

You know very well what our long term plans are since I've been writing (even TO YOU YOURSELF, IIRC) about them on other threads where you were posting.

You are just trying to avoid addressing the points I'm making because you, like your smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologist friends here, have NOTHING TO SAY. You and your friends have NO REAL ARGUMENTS to defend Thailand's racism, xenophobia and discriminations.

This thread is one of the best demonstrations of it.

[samran]

tell me, as a non-EU citizen, how can I move to Italy?

[Heng]

Yes, I'm for real. And yes, apparently you made a life choice that didn't include long term planning for where you would want to live.

You know very well what our long term plans are since I've been writing (even TO YOU YOURSELF, IIRC) about them on other threads where you were posting.

You are just trying to avoid addressing the points I'm making because you, like your smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologist friends here, have NOTHING TO SAY.

This thread is one of the best demonstrations of it.

Actually I have no idea what your plans are as they likely resided in memory for no more than a few seconds as they are really your business and not mine. Regardless, it appears that your long term planning, or lack there of, is the problem at hand.

You've yet to make any points other than stating that visa/immigration regulations in different countries are indeed different, often unfair, and sometimes impossible.

[samran]

Yes, I'm for real. And yes, apparently you made a life choice that didn't include long term planning for where you would want to live.

You know very well what our long term plans are since I've been writing (even TO YOU YOURSELF, IIRC) about them on other threads where you were posting.

You are just trying to avoid addressing the points I'm making because you, like your smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologist friends here, have NOTHING TO SAY. You and your friends have NO REAL ARGUMENTS to defend Thailand's racism, xenophobia and discriminations.

This thread is one of the best demonstrations of it.

I thought this thread was a good demonstration of someone pissed off that he can't come and live in thailand cause he thinks that the Thai government owes him something. Given that they can't the accuse everyone of racism, xenophobia and discrimination.

Funny, I know way too many farangs who have done incredibly well here to beleive that. But, they had to work for it.

[dbrenn]

Sad, but true what you say about the missed expectations of our Italian friend. The irate poster should have done his due dilligence before getting married to a Thai national regards recoprocity of immigration laws between Thailand and Italy. A valuable message to all those would-be farang husbands out there expecting to get something more than true love out of a Euro-Thai union, I guess.

[BAF]

tell me, as a non-EU citizen, how can I move to Italy?

Getting this informations shouldn't be that difficult, there are 2,800,000 legal migrants in Italy alone who have easily found out without having the resources and the means you surely must have...

Anyway:

Tourism? Buy an airticket.

Work/business? Meet the requirements like in the rest of the world (Thailand included) and apply for your permit of stay. Requirements are easier than in Thailand, laws are clearer and fairer, enforcement is much more consistent. Stay in the EU for 5 years (it may vary from state to state) and get your PR (no lotteries and no 100 PRs per year per nationality here). Stay a little further (7 years in Italy included the first 5 years for the PR, you can even go for the citizenship without having attained PR first) and get one of the EU citizenships. No flaming hoops to jump through, in Italy it costs a "whopping" total of 400 Euro (17,000 Baht) and entails, on average, a 1.5 years wait.

Married to an EU citizen? Forget all of the requirements above and ask for a permit of stay on the basis of being a spouse of an EU national. 6 months later (it may vary from state to state) apply for citizenship.

Edited July 9, 2007 by BAF

[BAF]

Actually I have no idea what your plans are as they likely resided in memory for no more than a few seconds as they are really your business and not mine. Regardless, it appears that your long term planning, or lack there of, is the problem at hand.

It surely must appear like that to you if you admittedly have the attention span of a starfish, Heng

[BAF]

I thought this thread was a good demonstration of someone pissed off that he can't come and live in thailand cause he thinks that the Thai government owes him something. Given that they can't the accuse everyone of racism, xenophobia and discrimination.

Funny, I know way too many farangs who have done incredibly well here to beleive that. But, they had to work for it.

I have long detailed my situation.

I'm still waiting for some of you Illuminati to show me how I can fully legally move to Thailand on a the long term basis needed to build one's own family's future.

Thank you in advance.

[BAF]

Sad, but true what you say about the missed expectations of our Italian friend. The irate poster should have done his due dilligence before getting married to a Thai national regards recoprocity of immigration laws between Thailand and Italy. A valuable message to all those would-be farang husbands out there expecting to get something more than true love out of a Euro-Thai union, I guess.

You are not replying to any of the answers you are getting to the many posts you are making here.

Remember this thread started as an answer to something which YOU YOURSELF asked me in your thread. You have never addressed my answer nor any other of the ones I am giving you here.

Please start your own thread and go trolling somewhere else instead of hijacking this one with all this silly ranting. Thought this group was supposed to be moderated.

[Heng]

Actually I have no idea what your plans are as they likely resided in memory for no more than a few seconds as they are really your business and not mine. Regardless, it appears that your long term planning, or lack there of, is the problem at hand.

It surely must appear like that to you if you admittedly have the attention span of a starfish, Heng

It's just that your immigration issues are about as important (a little less actually) to me as why my local Foodland seems to be currently out of stock of Nutra Grain Brown Sugar granola bars.

[BAF]

It's just that your immigration issues are about as important (a little less actually) to me as why my local Foodland seems to be currently out of stock of Nutra Grain Brown Sugar granola bars.

So what are you doing here Heng? Go looking for those Nutra Grain Brown Sugar granola bars, they may be back in store!

[Heng]

I thought this thread was a good demonstration of someone pissed off that he can't come and live in thailand cause he thinks that the Thai government owes him something. Given that they can't the accuse everyone of racism, xenophobia and discrimination.

Funny, I know way too many farangs who have done incredibly well here to beleive that. But, they had to work for it.

I have long detailed my situation.

I'm still waiting for some of you Illuminati to show me how I can fully legally move to Thailand on a the long term basis needed to build one's own family's future.

Thank you in advance.

Easy BAF, just meet the requirements.

Sorted.

...and you're welcome.

[BAF]

Easy BAF, just meet the requirements.

Sorted.

...and you're welcome.

This is too thick even for a starfish

And since it's clear you are just taking the piss... ciao ciao Heng.

[Heng]

It's just that your immigration issues are about as important (a little less actually) to me as why my local Foodland seems to be currently out of stock of Nutra Grain Brown Sugar granola bars.

So what are you doing here Heng? Go looking for those Nutra Grain Brown Sugar granola bars, they may be back in store!

Apart from the minor entertainment value... I'm saving thousands of people (perhaps hundreds of thousands) from having to suffer the anguish that you're apparently going through. All it takes is some forethought and long term planning.

Giving back to the community and all that.

[BAF]

I will ask again - have you spent any time contacting anyone actually relevant to this issue e.g. Ambassador, Dept of Immigration, etc, or is this simply sounding off and complaining?

Do you really think that a single (or even a few people) can hope to change a country's policy...

All I am saying here is that as long as the prevalent attitude amongst Westerners is that shown by the smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologist brigade there isn't even the POSSIBILITY of a change.

On the other hand, if the mass of the Westerners having any kind of dealing with Thailand would start to recognize, publicize and getting vocal on the mass media (whenever the chance) about these issues, there is the real possibility (not certainty) that something will be done. Mai-pen-rai doesn't get things done.

Dont' you agree?

I think the fundamental problem you will have is that many farangs come from countries OTHER than Thailand, with higher tax rates, higher unemployment, more social problems, inability to sleep with prostitutes, inability to get involved with hot women, inability to launch their own businesses due to lack of market size etc etc. Many of them recognise the inherent lack of fairness and possibility of a few exceptions in immigration regulations between countries. But there are some differences between the countries that they like. In fact, presumably it is the differences that draws them to Thailand. Therefore...I think your hopes of a great farang uprising which suddenly allows a bunch of plumbers, lawyers and so forth to descend upon Isaan and buy up all the land; start 100% owned businesses and stay as long as you wish will never happen.

steveromagnino, be assured (and assure those plumbers, lawyers and so forth) that reciprocating Thailand's immigration laws would do nothing to right the countless other wrongs of the Thai society.

It's in the Thais' interest and responsability to change the latter but it's in ours to try to change their immigration laws.

Am I correct in thinking that your view of immigration law is that Italy is entitled to carefully pick and choose visitors to Italy due to the risk of overstay?

No, every country is entitled to that and everybody is, in fact, doing that compatibly with what they think is in their best overall interest.

Isn't Thailand doing that as well (notwithstanding the fact that, I think, limiting tourists' stays ISN'T in their best interest)?

So you don't want to let in people who will work?

Most of those 2,800,000 legal migrants in Italy today ARE working, most of the 40,000,000 tourists Italy gets each year (rightly) don't.

But on the flip side, you feel that Thailand should have exactly the same standards for entering Thailand for Italians as, say, France does? But you want both countries to be 'equal'?

You have it all wrong, hope the above clarifies it.

Let me know whether you are allowed to own in Singapore. Whether you can become a Japanese citizen. Closer to home, let me know with your money how easy it is for you to become a resident of Monaco.

I have already answered this. I guess if people bothered to read the threads they are posting in we wouldn't be going in circles all of the time...

This is not something unique to Thailand, not at all, but this is a Thai based board and my wife's nationality is (unfortunately) Thai, so Thailand's immigration laws and policies are what interest me most and what we are supposed to discuss here.

Funny really. People emmigrating to New Zealand (where I grew up) use immgration lawyers, to ensure that they get in and meet the requirements. Yet you consider using a lawyer to do the same for you and to recommend an appropriate structure here to be somehow trickery. I hope and trust you don't use an accountant or lawyer in the rest of your life!

I take it you don't know Thai laws nor understand laws in general. An affidavit where I myself state something which Thai immigration wants to hear is a far cry from an official independant certification from one's Embassy (which is what the laws actually require).

[englishoak]

It is in my opinion indeed unfair.I am in the same situation and have come to terms with it,( but certainly hate it ) and also others who are not in the slightest bit bothered about ones own plight ( and who can realy blame them? ) I keep in mind the following.

You're born, you take shitt. You get out in the world, you take more shitt. You climb a little higher, you take less shitt. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shitt even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake son.

And thats life, deal with it or don't. Good luck.

Edited July 9, 2007 by englishoak

[bkk_mike]

As you already know, it is not OK to use these facts as a criticism of Thailand unless one assumes that all things ought to be equal, always. I personally see more reasons why Thailand ought to (and does well out of) make these things as financially rewarding for Thailand as possible.

This is not something unique to Thailand, not at all, but this is a Thai based board and my wife's nationality is (unfortunately) Thai, so Thailand's immigration laws and policies are what interest me most and what we are supposed to discuss here.

And it's something which has very little to do with economical/financial reasons: laws and policies like these are most common in 3rd world countries but still present in some developed countries (just think about Japan, its immigration laws and policies are almost as racist, xenophobic and discriminatory as Thailand's).

Sorry - I think you're mistaking Japan's laws for the impression of Japan's laws. (Except for getting Japanese nationality - which I will admit is a long and winding path - like Thailand's.).

i.e. Land in Japan on a first-world passport and you get 3 months on arrival. (no visa required).

Once you have a job, you can get your visa status changed without leaving the country.

And once you have a work visa - you can use the Japanese lines at immigration. (My wife has ILR in the UK - but she can only use the UK line when we're travelling together).

OK - The requirement to have a foreigner ID card is just the equivalent of the Japanese own ID card. It's basically so that you're required to notify the local authority when you move into an area, so that they know about you - and more importantly, who your employer is so that they can collect the local income tax.

The biggest hassle with Japan is the bureaucracy. Getting the paperwork approval for the work visa takes too long (and you need your original degree certificate), and getting the foreigner ID card takes a few weeks - and given you can't get the foreigner ID card until you've got the work visa, it can be a bit annoying in that you can't open a bank account until you get the foreigner ID card.

Add in that there's no 90 day reporting, and Thailand's rules are far more xenophobic than Japan.

[retirednavyman]

Someone (like dbrenn, who seems no more interested in a reply) may ask: "Try asking a Thai man who is queuing up outside a western embassy in the peeing rain just to get a tourist visa how fair he thinks the the immigration policy of the west is."

Now, what we first have to do, is to realize that the vast majority of those asking for tourist visas outside western embassies are women. Try looking for the official stats about Thai immigration in your homecountries and most likely you will find that, like in my own homecountry, much more than 50% (in Italy it's around 75-80%) of the Thais residing in Western (and not only) countries are women.

Try asking yourself why and you will see how genuine a tourist those folks asking for tourist visas outside western embassies are and how much of Thai money are they going to spend as tourists in our homecountries...

Next: how fair it is that westerners can come to Thailand whenever they choose, in many cases visa free, and stay as long as they like by exploiting loopholes in the system. Thais have an awful lot of trouble just to be granted a visa for one short trip to the west. How fair is that?

A. How many Thais want to come to Western countries for genuine tourism and how many to work/live as a dependant? How many Westerners come to Thailand for genuine tourism and how many to work/live as a dependant?

B. How many of those Thais (legally and illegally) working in the West send back home the money they make in the West? How many Westerners (legally and illegally) working in Thailand send back home the money they make in Thailand?

C. How many Thais touring/working/living in the West exploit the countless benefits, grants and welfare state type of services the Western countries offer to their citizens and foreigners? How many Westerners touring/working/living in Thailand exploit the almost non-existent benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to its own citizens and the pratically zero (as in nothing, nada, zilch, nawt, zip) benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to foreigners?

D. To the countries Thailand grants easy access (basically 1st world countries) the West grants easier access (for example, free 3 months permits of stay on arrival for Americans). Besides, Thailand (like everyone else) has different visas and immi regs for different nationalities and some of them (not from Western nor 1st world countries) have an easier time than us.

E. All people write about are always Western tourist visa, what about Western PR laws, Western citizenship laws and how they compare to their Thai equivalents?

There are very good reasons (reply to the points A, B and C and you may see them by yourself) for which tourist visas are easier to come by for a 1st world country's citizen than for a 3rd world military junta country's citizen...

Life isn't fair, is it? Well, I don't say it is but excuse me if I believe it should be and we should do what we can to make it fairer or as fair as possible. BUT, there is nothing we can do to change Thai immigration law so there is no point getting your knickers in a twist over it, right?

WRONG, there IS something we can do. And whenever that's been applied it's been proven it works.

I will repeat here what I usually write when comparing our GFs'/BFs'/spouses' homecountry with our own: the only effective way to deal with the problems foreigners have in our home countries and that we have in foreign countries is RECIPROCATING the s.hit we get anywhere in the world outside of our tiny, fragile Western bubble of civilization. And if that means kicking out of my home country my Thai wife because we don't have a combined monthly income of 6/7 times the average Italian wage (as Thailand does), so be it.

Reciprocating Thailand's (among other things) immi and ownership rules it is (or should be...) very clear what Thailand would lose but what exactly do we stand to lose (provided they wouldn't quickly do an about face when realized we are serious about it)?

Wow, you've done your research guy, my hat's off to you!!

Are you in the process of writing a thesis?

[BAF]

It is in my opinion indeed unfair.I am in the same situation and have come to terms with it,( but certainly hate it ) and also others who are not in the slightest bit bothered about ones own plight ( and who can realy blame them? ) I keep in mind the following.

You're born, you take shitt. You get out in the world, you take more shitt. You climb a little higher, you take less shitt. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shitt even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake son.

And thats life, deal with it or don't. Good luck.

Hi englishoak, don't worry while it may seem like I am obsessed with this story, outside of Thaivisa I have completely different things on my mind

I am getting this second degree in nursing because we want to move to the USA (where I have already lived in the past).

I don't have to work but getting a part-time job will allow me a very easy (especially as a nurse) visa and green card and I plan to get PR and citizenship as soon as the required years pass. I am preparing for an exam and that's why I have some free time to post on Thaivisa...

We have "moved on" and been done (short annual visits apart, and last time it was her parents to come to Italy) with Thailand the day we left.

[BAF]

Wow, you've done your research guy, my hat's off to you!!

Are you in the process of writing a thesis?

Yes... but it's on nursing

[BAF]

Sorry - I think you're mistaking Japan's laws for the impression of Japan's laws. (Except for getting Japanese nationality - which I will admit is a long and winding path - like Thailand's.).

i.e. Land in Japan on a first-world passport and you get 3 months on arrival. (no visa required).

Once you have a job, you can get your visa status changed without leaving the country.

And once you have a work visa - you can use the Japanese lines at immigration. (My wife has ILR in the UK - but she can only use the UK line when we're travelling together).

OK - The requirement to have a foreigner ID card is just the equivalent of the Japanese own ID card. It's basically so that you're required to notify the local authority when you move into an area, so that they know about you - and more importantly, who your employer is so that they can collect the local income tax.

The biggest hassle with Japan is the bureaucracy. Getting the paperwork approval for the work visa takes too long (and you need your original degree certificate), and getting the foreigner ID card takes a few weeks - and given you can't get the foreigner ID card until you've got the work visa, it can be a bit annoying in that you can't open a bank account until you get the foreigner ID card.

Add in that there's no 90 day reporting, and Thailand's rules are far more xenophobic than Japan.

Yes you are right bkk_mike, I admit I was especially thinking at their naturalization laws when I wrote that.

Amongst my wife's friends here where we live there are 3 Japanese women (my wife is part Japanese herself) who have followed their husbands working in the local Honda factory.

I was very surprised when one of them told me once about having, back in Japan, some kind of govt officers visiting her and asking her and her husband if they knew and what they thought of one of their neighbours (they didn't know him). It turned out he was a gaijin (farang) in the process of getting Japanese citizenship (BTW, AFAIK Japan doesn't allow dual citizenship).

In other words, Japan is apparently using the exact same medieval practices Thailand uses in these matters! My wife hasn't had any Italian govt officer going around our neighbourhood asking them if they thought she should get Italian citizenship...

Anyway I agree, Japan is overall better than Thailand on the counts of racism, xenophobia and discrimination (especially on the legislation and its actual enforcement). How better, I don't know Japan well enough to judge (but apparently you do and I have no reasons not to believe you).

Edited July 9, 2007 by BAF

[dbrenn]

I thought this thread was a good demonstration of someone pissed off that he can't come and live in thailand cause he thinks that the Thai government owes him something. Given that they can't the accuse everyone of racism, xenophobia and discrimination.

Funny, I know way too many farangs who have done incredibly well here to beleive that. But, they had to work for it.

I have long detailed my situation.

I'm still waiting for some of you Illuminati to show me how I can fully legally move to Thailand on a the long term basis needed to build one's own family's future.

Thank you in advance.

Easy BAF, just meet the requirements.

Sorted.

...and you're welcome.

Right. Move to Thailand, get a job, pay tax, apply. I did it, and now I am a Thai citizen, and it's not all that hard. You don't even have to be married, actually, like you do in Italy.

Sitting on one's butt in Italy bleating about injustices won't get our complaining friend anywhere, I'm sorry to say. He needs to make some tough life choices that may include actually going to live and work in Thailand if he wants any kind of legal status there.

[Heng]

And there you have it. See, it's doable and not an "impossibility."

[samran]

And there you have it. See, it's doable and not an "impossibility."

problem is Heng, BAF likes to have things his way. He isn't a businessman nor does he understand economics by the sounds of these things. Remember, he comes from a state where things are subsidised and many government services, are handed to you on a platter, for free. Its nice for first world countries to afford this, but for countries like Thailand, it is a little bit harder.

You see, the problem with people like BAF, is they moan that Thailand won't let them in. But even if they could waltz in here and the visa laws were to their liking, I'm afraid a graduate a political science degree and is training to become a nurse would be lucky to earn, well, 15,000 baht per month. So he'll then be complaining that salaries in Thailand should reflect those in the rest of the world. (But oh, I forgot, BAF has a million euro of land in his portfolio with an income of 2000 euro per month!!! You'd figure, he'd be able to afford a half decent immigration lawyer himself with that money.)

15K is hardly the stuff to build futures on. But, then I guess that is why the government has a 40K per month/per family rule for foreingers to live here with their wives, to ensure that people who are here are able to support themselves.

The thing people like BAF tend to forget, is that we really live in a borderless world these days. But to survive anywhere, you need the skills that the market demands. Someone like him, even if all the visa rules were in his favour, wouldn't be able to make a living in Thailand. Doesn't speak the language and doesn't have the right skill set. He also doesn't appear to have the right disposition to live in Thailand, or at least, to be succesful here. He also has a neo-colonial attitiude of Thais as backwards inbred so-and-so's whos rules and regulations are not up to scratch for a civilsed European that he thinks he is. Pretty insulting to say the least.

I suggest BAF look at the experiences of one of our members - Rainman, a swiss guy who earns all his income offshore and yet manages quite well here. He hasn't found the situation staightfoward, but moving to a new country never is easy adminstratively (I've moved to the UK as an Australian), and not straightforward as BAF likes to beleive!!.

[steveromagnino]

you state about getting into Italy:

Anyway:

Tourism? Buy an airticket.

Work/business? Meet the requirements like in the rest of the world (Thailand included) and apply for your permit of stay.

Stay in the EU for 5 years (it may vary from state to state) and get your PR (no lotteries and no 100 PRs per year per nationality here). Stay a little further (7 years in Italy included the first 5 years for the PR, you can even go for the citizenship without having attained PR first) and get one of the EU citizenships. No flaming hoops to jump through, in Italy it costs a "whopping" total of 400 Euro (17,000 Baht) and entails, on average, a 1.5 years wait.

Married to an EU citizen? Forget all of the requirements above and ask for a permit of stay on the basis of being a spouse of an EU national. 6 months later (it may vary from state to state) apply for citizenship.

- first one the same except of course, for longer stays you need to apply, kind of like how my family have to apply to go to Italy :-)

- second one much the same; there are requirements here, different to in Italy and definitely more restrictive, but in essence same concept; stay 3 years working and pay tax, apply for PR and (AFAIK) get it so long as you have been paying a decent amount of tax on income usually not less than 120,000b a month and have 3 years of continouus work permits/visa extensions; the lottery is a smoke screen; if you can tell me that there are 100 Italians applying so you cannot...well I bet you have never checked (and suspect a lawyer can get you your place in the queue no problem). Since you have a Thai wife, I presume you can read and write Thai since it is a very simple language, far less difficult than the complex and beautiful language of Italian - you won't need a lawyer you can do the paperwork yourself if you wish. Only proviso - Thailand is only interested in people working, so no coming in with a massive wad of cash these days and buying a big house. After another 2 years, you can in theory apply for citizenship, not that easy, and probably all up 7 years is a more likely time frame than 5. I know plenty of western men who have done exactly this. Strangely enough most not married. Costs a fair bit more than Italy. Mind you, Italy is not exactly a cheap place to live, so swings and roundabouts.

- 3rd one; markedly different. Presumably this is the one you don't like.

A sadder side of the place, Thailand supplies many mailorder brides to desparate western men; we don't necessarily want to allow free access to those men to come back, given the horrendous divorce stats, and general 'loser status' of the husbands concerned - we won't exactly get the cream of society coming here with an open door policy. There are limits to comparing developed and developing countries - hel_l even NZ has to play around with their immigration formula the whole time to get the type of people they want. Plus of course, many Thai people don't want Isaan overrun with landowning foreigners for typical nationalistic PR reasons. You will get a permit to stay AFAIK but not without proving you have cash etc. Sounds like Italy has a recipe for idiocy with their immigration policy; then again, it is considered to be a nice gateway to the EU for illegal immigration - supposedly Italy has 500,000-800,000 illegal immigrants living there, and 2.7 legal ones (ref. IDOS, Eurispes). Niiiiiiiiice role model. Mind you, like USA no doubt the illegal immigrants do all the work that Italians are too good for, same as most places. trouble is, such a model won't work here; we already have dregs of society to do all the menial tasks. We need decent people!!!

Now, this 'one man' comment. One man called Gulu Lalvani proposed that the marine tax here should be dropped from 40-300% (depending on item) to a flat 0%. In return he would build a property development with a marina.

The tax was dropped in Feb 2006 as I recall.

Lots of things can be done by one person. So find that person and see how you go. Or would you prefer to continue to complain to some sympathetic ears none of whom are going to do anything about your issue? I suspect i know the answer. Your pipedream of getting a gang of militant farang to somehow force Thailand to improve treatment of you farang is simply not realistic because there are some farang doing just fine already and not wanting to open the flood gates, plus, most people are lazy and would rather complain.

Clearly the treatment you feel you will receive here, makes you not want to come here. Enjoy USA and that nursing; sounds like Heng's advice for planning is in fact occuring; and you are planning to go there - enjoy :-)

Edited July 10, 2007 by steveromagnino

[samran]

A sadder side of the place, Thailand supplies many mailorder brides to desparate western men; we don't necessarily want to allow free access to those men to come back, given the horrendous divorce stats, and general 'loser status' of the husbands concerned - we won't exactly get the cream of society coming here with an open door policy. There are limits to comparing developed and developing countries - hel_l even NZ has to play around with their immigration formula the whole time to get the type of people they want.

You mean Steve, that Thailand doesn't want a bunch of "conjugal tourists" marrying their first tee-rak they meet on Soi cowboy and getting Thailand PR and then citizenship?? Kinds sounds quite clever public policy to me. I guess, they are then forced to move back to the partners country.

Win-win I guess, and Piggy Muldoons comment about raising the average IQ's of both countries does comes to mind.