Just now, torturedsole said:

I've no vested interest in Russia but irrespective of their not achieving their earlier ridiculous timeline, doesn't mean they won't prevail in the longer term.  

 

Museum pieces still represent armoury/weaponry and there's no way that Russia will accept defeat. 

 

We can debate it all day, but Russia holds all the cards.

Those junk tanks are not a good set of cards, think again.

12 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

I've no vested interest in Russia but irrespective of not achieving their earlier ridiculous timeline, doesn't mean they won't prevail in the longer term.  

 

Museum pieces still represent armoury/weaponry and there's no way that Russia will accept defeat. 

 

We can debate it all day, but Russia holds all the cards.

Russia holding all the cards? Seriously?? If Russia was holding all the cards we wouldn't even be having this discussion - Ukraine would have been defeated a long time ago.

Edited May 10, 20233 yr by Phoenix Rising

I very much doubt a T55 will have any effectiveness on a battlefield against an M1 Abrams, Challenger or Leopard tank. The technological gulf is too huge.

IIRC, the Iraqis had a lot of T55 and T72 tanks, the Abrams slaughtered them. Any hits on an Abrams just bounced off.

Unless the Russians have found a way to equip the T55's with armor-piercing discarding sabot ammunition and precision guidance, it will be the same story.

 

5 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Russia holding all the cards? Seriously?? If Russia was holding all the cards we wouldn't even have this discussion - Ukraine would have been defeated a long time ago.

Putin is betting a busted flush against a full house of very motivated Ukrainians.

2 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I very much doubt a T55 will have any effectiveness on a battlefield against an M1 Abrams, Challenger or Leopard tank. The technological gulf is too huge.

IIRC, the Iraqis had a lot of T55 and T72 tanks, the Abrams slaughtered them. Any hits on an Abrams just bounced off.

Unless the Russians have found a way to equip the T55's with armor-piercing discarding sabot ammunition and precision guidance, it will be the same story.

 

Another issue with such outdated tanks are their guns. They're all 105 mm while modern tanks are 120 mm, and they have the armor to match. A 105 mm will hardly make a dent in the armor of a modern main battle tank.

5 minutes ago, Phoenix Rising said:

Russia holding all the cards? Seriously?? If Russia was holding all the cards we wouldn't even be having this discussion - Ukraine would have been defeated a long time ago.

But they're still attacking Ukraine.

 

I would love to tell you what you want to hear but I can't foresee Russia being defeated. They are seriously evil and sometimes in life, it's easier to make a deal with the devil.

13 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

This is getting boring. I've made my point, it stands, and my name isn't Terry Waite.

I agree it is boring because apart from saying "negotiate" (about what?) you have nothing else to offer!

 

What has the plight of the ex hostage, ex negotiator, Terry Waite (who I have met!), got to do with this apart from show that negotiating with terrorists is a waste of time and just causes even more problems!

32 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

So if the Russians will not withdraw what is there to negotiate about?

Ukraine will not negotiate unless they start to lose heavily, I would of thought that was obvious.

 

To stop the war and get into dialogue would be better for both sides but can't see that happening now that Ukraine has western backing.

Crimea will be wanted back too. 

 

My prediction would be as I have said before the only way this war will end is the removal of Putin's regime until then it will continue.

3 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

Northern Ireland. I rest my case.

Ireland was not being systematically demolished, Ukraine is..............

6 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

But they're still attacking Ukraine.

 

I would love to tell you what you want to hear but I can't foresee Russia being defeated. They are seriously evil and sometimes in life, it's easier to make a deal with the devil.

The Ukrainians know Putin wants to exterminate them. They will never negotiate until the last Russian has left the country.

Please explain how one makes a deal with someone bent on genocide, with a long record of reneging on every agreement.

Just now, Lacessit said:

The Ukrainians know Putin wants to exterminate them. They will never negotiate until the last Russian has left the country.

Please explain how one makes a deal with someone bent on genocide, with a long record of reneging on every agreement.

Please explain how you intend to remove the Russians from Ukraine?

7 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Ukraine will not negotiate unless they start to lose heavily, I would of thought that was obvious.

 

To stop the war and get into dialogue would be better for both sides but can't see that happening now that Ukraine has western backing.

Crimea will be wanted back too. 

 

My prediction would be as I have said before the only way this war will end is the removal of Putin's regime until then it will continue.

Totally agree with you.

I also want to see the end of this needless war (as are most) but not by a Ukrainian surrender!

Just now, torturedsole said:

Please explain how you intend to remove the Russians from Ukraine?

By them withdrawing or being defeated!

10 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

But they're still attacking Ukraine.

 

I would love to tell you what you want to hear but I can't foresee Russia being defeated. They are seriously evil and sometimes in life, it's easier to make a deal with the devil.

"I would love to tell you what you want to hear ..."

Don't worry, I have no preferences wrt what I want to hear from you.

 

"They are seriously evil and sometimes in life, it's easier to make a deal with the devil."

There you go again. In order to make a deal one has to negotiate. Again, what should Ukraine negotiate about with the attacker? 

Just now, torturedsole said:

Please explain how you intend to remove the Russians from Ukraine?

Please explain how you intend to remove the Russians from Ukraine?

theyre doomed with severe labor shortages as 1.3 million have left the country and theyre all well skilled guys , and another 500k missing or dead

theyre screwed by mad glad for ages ,the greatest act of self harm by any leader in history 

they cant make a paper bag let along a modern tank

total lack of     ball bearings    

1 minute ago, scottiejohn said:

By them withdrawing or being defeated!

Let's be real, withdrawal isn't going to happen. 

 

Near defeat is possible, but total defeat of the Russians isn't going to happen.

 

So we're still left with what to do in the current stalemate.

28 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

I've no vested interest in Russia but irrespective of not achieving their earlier ridiculous timeline, doesn't mean they won't prevail in the longer term.  

 

Museum pieces still represent armoury/weaponry and there's no way that Russia will accept defeat. 

 

We can debate it all day, but Russia holds all the cards.

Well the experts did say the tanks will be effective and if there's a 1000 or more they not be welcome. 

They will still have to be destroyed they may be not up to modern standards and the enthusiasm here for Ukraine is all very well but a baseball bat ain't gonna do em in.

 

It will take ammunition and lots more which posters here seem to forget Ukraine have little of and are still in short supply.

1 minute ago, torturedsole said:

Please explain how you intend to remove the Russians from Ukraine?

I don't intend to, the Ukrainians do.

The Ukrainians are well equipped, well trained, have high morale and have competent leadership. The Russians have none of the above, their only strategy is to attack civilian infrastructure.

I expect the Ukrainians to continue attacking Russian logistics, which so far they have done quite brilliantly. Logistics win wars.

Putin is hiding the real numbers of Russian casualties, that information can't be suppressed forever. When it does get out, the Russians themselves may well do the work for the Ukrainians.

pundits reckon russia will descend into civil war when things get tougher,when vlad gets the knife to his throat or poisoned 

2 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

Let's be real, withdrawal isn't going to happen. 

 

Near defeat is possible, but total defeat of the Russians isn't going to happen.

 

So we're still left with what to do in the current stalemate.

There is no stalemate, Russia has been shown to be lacking in every department, Putin has shown his/their incompetence.........

4 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

So we're still left with what to do in the current stalemate.

Who says it is a stalemate?

Lets keep arming the Ukraine to help them defeat Russia and save the rest of Europe from the same fate as Russia is trying to inflict on Ukraine!

1 minute ago, torturedsole said:

My point stands, relative peace was only achieved through negotiation. 

Oh, like Chamberlain achieved peace with Hitler?

On 5/9/2023 at 10:18 AM, Kwasaki said:

Unreported fact because it's not popular.

 

The Soviet T-55 main battle tank was one of the most successful tanks ever produced. The T-55 is one of the most iconic Soviet main battle tanks of the Cold War. It was an immensely successful tank that was affordable and capable in its time, unlike other more expensive tanks.

That may well be so, but as been proven in the middle east, when they are pitched up against modern western weaponry, they don't stand a chance. They were annihilated during the 1st Gulf war when Iraqi T55s came up against British and American tanks.

5 minutes ago, transam said:

There is no stalemate, Russia has been shown to be lacking in every department, Putin has shown his/their incompetence.........

Do you think Putin intends to continue with the current state of play forever? I don't think so, and a further mobilisation will be along shortly.  

 

Brute force and numbers. 

The topic was locked so that the continuing off-topic postings as well as replies and the bickering back and forth posts over negotiation etc...could be removed. 

 

This is the last time I will post this, as the next posts which veer off topic or those that continue bickering and baiting will be removed without notation, and warnings will be given to those posters.

 

Forum Rules

9. You will not post disruptive or inflammatory messages. You will respect other members and post in a civil manner. Personal attacks, insults or hate speech posted on the forum or sent by private message are not allowed.

 

10. You will not post troll messages. Trolling is the act of purposefully antagonizing forum members by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other members into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

 

Standards of Conduct

2. Do not post off-topic responses as they can often hijack the topic.

18 minutes ago, torturedsole said:

Do you think Putin intends to continue with the current state of play forever? I don't think so, and a further mobilisation will be along shortly.  

 

Brute force and numbers. 

You may be right. However, Putin cannot avoid mobilizing Russians in the major cities, which he has studiously ignored so far, preferring to focus on minority groups.

Putin fears the political backlash from complete mobilisation, even now he refuses to designate the conflict as a war.

Each mobilisation he conducts results in the best and brightest Russians fleeing the country. They don't want to be cannon fodder for incompetent generals.

IMO Russia is either going to be a failed state, riven by ethnic conflicts, or a Chinese vassal.

55 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I don't intend to, the Ukrainians do.

The Ukrainians are well equipped, well trained, have high morale and have competent leadership. The Russians have none of the above, their only strategy is to attack civilian infrastructure.

I expect the Ukrainians to continue attacking Russian logistics, which so far they have done quite brilliantly. Logistics win wars.

Putin is hiding the real numbers of Russian casualties, that information can't be suppressed forever. When it does get out, the Russians themselves may well do the work for the Ukrainians.

Ammunition is wanted now. 

"experts say they may still be effective"

 

Muskets or even spears would be effective when the russians are targeting unarmed civilians, women and children.

On 5/9/2023 at 10:18 AM, Kwasaki said:

Unreported fact because it's not popular.

 

The Soviet T-55 main battle tank was one of the most successful tanks ever produced. The T-55 is one of the most iconic Soviet main battle tanks of the Cold War. It was an immensely successful tank that was affordable and capable in its time, unlike other more expensive tanks.

Not that they're actually being used in ukraine, but at 35 tons, they're less likely to get bogged down in the sticky ukranium spring mud than the 60-70 ton leopards and challengers.