Are Expats An Endangered Species?

[chinthee]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the true definition of a cheap charlie is a guy who can afford much more, but insists on low-balling everything in life. It's not a guy who just has to live a lower key life because he doesn't have the money.

[cdnvic]

It may sound patronizing, huh? No. It really sounds rude, dehumanizing, judgemental, and morally superior as if your bigger money makes you a more superior human being. It doesn't. There is a word for your attitude. It starts with an A and ends with an E. And it a much worse thing to be than a so called Cheap Charlie.

Although I disagree with Mobi's assertions, I don't see any place where he's inferred that he's morally or otherwise superior. There is a word for your attitude. It's called envy.

[Jingthing]

It may sound patronizing, huh? No. It really sounds rude, dehumanizing, judgemental, and morally superior as if your bigger money makes you a more superior human being. It doesn't. There is a word for your attitude. It starts with an A and ends with an E. And it a much worse thing to be than a so called Cheap Charlie.

Although I disagree with Mobi's assertions, I don't see any place where he's inferred that he's morally or otherwise superior. There is a word for your attitude. It's called envy.

Sure thing. Its a feeling I got from his TONE. Reread his stuff and let me know if you still feel it isn't there.

Of course I would love to have his money.

Because even if it came with his attitude, I could pay someone to have that unpleasantness removed.

[Mobi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the true definition of a cheap charlie is a guy who can afford much more, but insists on low-balling everything in life. It's not a guy who just has to live a lower key life because he doesn't have the money.

Yes, I agree it can mean that, but in LOS it has come to denote farangs who have very low disposable income, and as a consequence , try to do everything on the cheap. From cheap beer, to cheap women, to cheap - just about everything. They have no choice, as they simply can't afford to do anything else.

Before the taxis had meters in Bangkok, it was always the cheap Charlie farangs who bargained taxi fares even lower than the Thais would. The poor drivers inevitably accepted the lower fares, as in those days farangs were afforded respect, even if they had no money. But they were known as Cheap Charlies.

Ah how times have changed

[Jingthing]

Class war?

The rich have won.

They always have and they always will

But you don't have to gloat. Its bad form.

Mobi sounds like those characters from Manhattan who complain they really can't survive on a million dollars a year, oh dear!

Edited July 16, 2007 by Jingthing

[bendix]

jingthing, dear . . your green slip is showing.

Having read this thread, it seems to me that Mobi is far from sounding like a complaining New Yorker. Far from it. He seems remarkably content, and good luck to him. It sounds like he's worked hard for it.

You, on the contrary, are starting to sound a tad whiny.

Seriously, sometimes it's best to keep your discontent to yourself, you know . . .?

[cdnvic]

jingthing, dear . . your green slip is showing.

Having read this thread, it seems to me that Mobi is far from sounding like a complaining New Yorker. Far from it. He seems remarkably content, and good luck to him. It sounds like he's worked hard for it.

You, on the contrary, are starting to sound a tad whiny.

Seriously, sometimes it's best to keep your discontent to yourself, you know . . .?

Be gentle. His favourite Che Guevera shirt got lost in the wash yesterday.

[villagefarang]

In my opinion anyone who talks about money and starts throwing around numbers is just looking for trouble. As we can see from this thread it is a no win proposition. Everybody ends up looking bad and having hurt feelings.

[Mobi]

Class war?

The rich have won.

They always have and they always will

But you don't have to gloat. Its bad form.

Mobi sounds like those characters from Manhattan who complain they really can't survive on a million dollars a year, oh dear!

Considering that I was dragged up by a drunken, unemployable father on an East London council estate - after being made homeless at the age of 10 and the family spread far and wide for years in various hostels - leaving school at 15 to help the family put food on table ( I did a paper round followed by a full time job after breakfast), and without the benefit of a university education or any qualifications worth mentioning, I wonder what class you think I come from?

A pretty wretched class that's for sure.

Even in class ridden England the disadvantaged can make it in this world. Just because someone has wealth, it doesn't mean it comes from the benefits of class or a rich Daddy with connections.

Methinks you would do well to stop whining and espousing Marxist claptrap and get off your fat a..rs and make sure you're one of the winners, rather than the loser you appear to be.

[kat]

Mobi, I have no quarrel with you living as you please, really. The only issue I have is that I get the impression from your posts that you feel that your expenditures are somewhat typical when they are nowhere near so. Perhaps that is not what you intended.

It may sound patronising and degrading to use the phrase 'Cheap Charlie', but that's what farangs are who live on very low incomes in LOS - I know because I used to be one - and I fear they will start to feel the pinch in the not too distant future.

.

Mr. Mobi.

It may sound patronizing, huh? No. It really sounds rude, dehumanizing, judgemental, and morally superior as if your bigger money makes you a more superior human being. It doesn't. There is a word for your attitude. It starts with an A and ends with an E. And it a much worse thing to be than a so called Cheap Charlie.

Of course, many things are easier in life if you have a surplus of money and harder if you don't, but human beings are wonderfully adaptable.

Next time you're in Bangkok, go to Soi 11 Sukhumvit, and a few meters up on the left you will find a small sub soi. About twenty meters into this sub soi is a bar called "Cheap Charlies". It has been there for many a year.

And you you know who drinks there?

Got it in one - "Cheap Charlies".

The bar is so cheap and the custom so impecunious that the management insists on payment in advance.

And just to wreak the wrath of all the PC minded farangs in Thailand, I will tell you that when I recently went there and ordered a drink for myself and my wife, I was the only one who was allowed to have a check bin pot and not pay in advance.

Why? Well your guess is as good as mine, but I can only imagine they recognised a man of substance when they saw one

Call me what you like my friend but I think that 'Cheap Charlie' is an extremely illuminating, and apt epithet.

Once upon a time - back in those distant, far off days, I was such a cheap Charlie that I used to try and creep out of bars without paying - and if that didn't work, I'd make some of the check bins disappear from the pot when no-one was looking.

And the favourite trick amongst us cheap Charlies, was to order coke (about 6 Baht in those days) and lace it with Mekhong from bands in our pockets.

You see I come from a long line of Cheap Charlies - and it takes one to know one - but I realised that if I was ever to get on in this world, it behoved me to quit being a cheap Charlie and do something with my life. Which is what I did.

And that my dear friend, is why I consider I have the right to call a spade a spade and a Cheap Charlie a Cheap Charlie.

And if you don't like it - it's tough sh..t.

So, Mobi, can you tell those of us in the process of doing something with our lives what it is you did? I left Thailand last October after the same realizations you just described, and am now in the process of doing something about it.

I understand the sensitivities on this board and sympathize with them, but it might be helpful to learn from someone else's experience as well.

thanks,

Kat

P.S. And on that note, I've got to sign off now to prepare for an interview in 2 hours, in which I may be able to increase my income by about 30% in 4 months. Wish me luck boys - this transition back has been a hard road to plough. See you later.

Edited July 16, 2007 by kat

[Mobi]

Kat, I already regret starting this diversion, and the poor OP must be tearing his hair out at the way his topic has been hi-jacked.

So while one day I may be willing to tell my tale - here is not the time or place.

All I will say is that there was nothing magical, and if there was any luck involved I wasn't aware of it.

When I first went back to England after a ten year Cheap Charlie" hiatus in LOS, even the job agencies didn't want to know me. I'll never forget the agency guy who told me that in his view I was unemployable, but if I did manage to get and hold down a job, come back in a year and he would put me on his books.

Kat, it was a long hard slog, but I refused to be beaten ( I had a wife and a young daughter and another on the way), and slowly but surely I got on the first rung, then the second, and so on. I just had to be better, work harder and be more determined than anyone else, and in the end I made it.

If you are in England, they say the UK has the 4th largest economy in world these days (It certainly wasn't when I went back), and the country is awash with money and dynamic service and Hi tech industries. It may not be "American Dream' country, but these days it's not too far off. Just go look for it and find your niche.

And the very best of luck at your interview.

[chinthee]

Mobi,

I'm the OP and no worries about the thread. I've very much enjoyed hearing your rags to riches story. Makes mine pale by comparison, but I wasn't exactly born with a silver spoon in the mouth either, but rose to my own kind of stardom too.

[Jingthing]

jingthing, dear . . your green slip is showing.

Having read this thread, it seems to me that Mobi is far from sounding like a complaining New Yorker. Far from it. He seems remarkably content, and good luck to him. It sounds like he's worked hard for it.

You, on the contrary, are starting to sound a tad whiny.

Seriously, sometimes it's best to keep your discontent to yourself, you know . . .?

I am content also. I wouldn't trade my life for anyones. I noticed people are still equating obscene bank account with winner. I don't buy that kind of superficiality and I am the happier for it. Yes, misery is to be had when you don't have enough. But so many overdo it and lose sight of what is really important. And dying with millions of unspent numbers is not important. In my life, I have been at various wealth levels, some quite high, but the things that really matter don't change so much. In my 20s I was most definitely poor but I didn't feel like I was poor because I was having so much fun, so of course that was the best time in my life. Of course, it could have been because I was in my 20s ....

Edited July 16, 2007 by Jingthing

[bendix]

I am content also. I wouldn't trade my life for anyones. I noticed people are still equating obscene bank account with winner. I don't buy that kind of superficiality and I am the happier for it. Yes, misery is to be had when you don't have enough. But so many overdo it and lose sight of what is really important. And dying with millions of unspent numbers is not important. In my life, I have been at various wealth levels, some quite high, but the things that really matter don't change so much.

Well, if you're happy, then i'm happy. Shall we have a moment?

[qualtrough]

I am content also. I wouldn't trade my life for anyones. I noticed people are still equating obscene bank account with winner. I don't buy that kind of superficiality and I am the happier for it. Yes, misery is to be had when you don't have enough. But so many overdo it and lose sight of what is really important. And dying with millions of unspent numbers is not important. In my life, I have been at various wealth levels, some quite high, but the things that really matter don't change so much.

Well, if you're happy, then i'm happy. Shall we have a moment?

Group hug everyone??

[waldpyk]

although i agree with you more or less , i take exception of your 10 years claim

within 2 years the trend will be clear

[Jersey_UK]

Got to laugh because

a) I'm from Milton Keynes.

b)Jersey's not exactly a 20 minute drive for people is it? besides that beach still looks way too crowded for me, and the photo is probably taken on the least crowded day ever. Like Christmas Day or something.

c) Its probably 10 degrees celcius.

Most of Europes beaches are not a 20 Minute drive from Milton Keynes.

Looks like it was taken 20 years ago - before the move to "quality tourists".......who strangely enough haven't seemed to have arrived en masse yet. probably because the market aimed for was STUPID people. Now the Beaches are pretty much empty in the Summer......I don't care, not my source of income

[Felt 35]

I've been reading many increasingly critical writings on this board and elsewhere of Thailand, and to this point I just sort of discounted much of it as sour grapes for some reason. But increasingly, I find myself asking why a lot of people would bother coming to live in Thailand now. I'm not talking about those of us already established, with wives, partners, businesses or jobs, or those who keep coming and drinking the kool-aid, etc., but someone new, with global options, and not so enamoured of Thailand. I'm not sure if Malaysia, Cambodia or Philippines is the answer, but increasingly, it seems that Thailand isn't.

For a retiree, it's looking MUCH less attractive, especially if your funds are denominated in US$. The devaluation of the dollar may continue and may not return to old levels again perhaps. The kind of adventurous retiree that perhaps commonly used to choose Thailand had visited in the past and fallen in love with the country, but may now desire to retire on limited fixed income. We've seen several threads started by people who don't have much disposable retirement income. The rising visa requirements, combined with the lower dollar have priced many out of the market now, and with the very real possibility of doubling of the visa requirements in the future (which has been the trend) even those who are now qualified to renew stays may be forced out. In addition, many retirees enjoy working part time to keep busy or supplement their income. This is not legally possible in LOS due to visa restrictions on work permits. At the same time, there is a thread now running on the continuing increasing costs of hospital care in Bangkok and Thailand. It seems medical care is not quite the bargain it used to be. The very real possibility of the visa goalposts continuing to move combined with the drop in purchasing power, combined with no options for earning extra will have a chilling effect on the retirement market. Adding to all the above is currency exchange uncertainty in other currencies and global concerns about possible downturns and bubbles. This could affect the property market as a result.

For those under 50, who are not married to a Thai, the visa options are very slim indeed. The job options seem increasingly bleak to anyone who doesn't teach English. Teaching English is not a high paying pursuit. Foreign MNCs choose Singapore or Hong Kong as regional HQs, and big expansions, like we've seen by Intel in Vietnam aren't happening here, and few new ones are looking to locate in Thailand. Japan, the largest direct foreign investor is on hold in Thailand. We have heard recently from those who have been cut from their expat jobs in Bangkok and had to relocate in Singapore. Starting a small business is very difficult, risky and a labyrinth of visa hassles. So, I keep asking myself how will Thailand attract any high income potential new foreign blood or in fact, brain power, IT, creative innovation or other talent. The huge influx of foreign students to USA and European universities has created a tremendous treasure trove for those countries in freshly minted, highly educated thinkers and leaders. Many of the overseas Chinese students have returned to China to seek their fortunes and enrich their native land. Are we to believe that Thailand produces a huge pool of such talent internally? Is this because the Thai education system is so great and pumps out creative free thinkers at an astounding rate? I see great growth and personal opportunities elsewhere in the region for those under 40, but not in Thailand.

For richer investors, the investor visa has been eliminated, so that is shut down. The Thai Elite card is rising to 1.5M Baht, and likely to get to 3M within 10 years, AND at the same time the benefits have been curtailed. Again, a move that has no relationship to supply and demand. Not many will opt for such an overpriced, undervalued programme.

Going back to the property market, we keep hearing how the condo prices keep rising in Bangkok, and new projects are sold out before they start. Yet, few people are actually living in them. Mostly they're bought by speculators, mostly Thai, but some foreign. In Pattaya, we hear you can't move property very well, and that, again, supply and demand forces do not work in Thailand, that is instead of dropping prices, prices go up, but demand goes down?

Combined with the above, come complaints from many expats that Thailand is becoming more xenophobic, and less desirable in a number of respects, including rising break-ins, pollution, robberies, etc..

It seems we're approaching a crossroads. If these current forces continue, I would imagine we will see a retrenchment of foreigners living in Thailand. I'm sure it will remain popular as a tourist destination. But, I think the expat population will shrink measurably. Some would argue this is a good thing. What's your view?

chinthee, Interesting theories and a great stir up!

Personally I cant see Thailand change to be a structured enviroment friendly, democratic and safe place in the next two decades which again mean that the high end people they want here will go other places.

Most things in life are logic. You don’t get better friends than what friend yourself are to them.

However if the few which brag about their incomes in the past posts is serious, it looks for me as Thailand has a greater problem at task than to eliminate eventually low-end tourists.

Show off, superstition and I’m better than you attitude don’t work well if you want a Nation to prosper on all levels. Seems that’s one of many thing it looks as the Pm in charge will try to change and the least he need then is some foreigners who are just as obsessed of money and greed as the ones he will have to nail.

A man in that category just left. Maybe he needs some more players on his new “show the world it’s me team”

BTW, TIT not Hawaii.

[bendix]

However if the few which brag about their incomes in the past posts is serious, it looks for me as Thailand has a greater problem at task than to eliminate eventually low-end tourists.

Show off, superstition and I’m better than you attitude don’t work well if you want a Nation to prosper on all levels.

You're quite right Felt. One of Thailand's most pressing problems is foreigners with high levels of disposable income from overseas living and spending it here. It's top of the agenda at every cabinet meeting.

[Mobi]

However if the few which brag about their incomes in the past posts is serious, it looks for me as Thailand has a greater problem at task than to eliminate eventually low-end tourists.

Show off, superstition and I'm better than you attitude don't work well if you want a Nation to prosper on all levels. Seems that's one of many thing it looks as the Pm in charge will try to change and the least he need then is some foreigners who are just as obsessed of money and greed as the ones he will have to nail.

A man in that category just left. Maybe he needs some more players on his new "show the world it's me team"

BTW, TIT not Hawaii.

It seems like envy goes hand in hand with a propensity to put words in people's mouths

"Bragging" - possibly, but only to make the point that it will become increasingly difficult for farangs to live here if they have less than 100k a month.

"Show off, superstition and I'm better than you attitude".... leading to conclusion that " some foreigners who are just as obsessed of money and greed".......

Pray show me where you read anything in this thread that even vaguely inferred such outrageous statements?

TITV

[Mobi]

You're quite right Felt. One of Thailand's most pressing problems is foreigners with high levels of disposable income from overseas living and spending it here. It's top of the agenda at every cabinet meeting.

Mind you, it it might well be if anyone could prove that such farangs were becoming an endangered species

[bendix]

I don't think are. Far from it. In fact, I suspect that it's the reverse. The trend is towards more of those guys (but probably from Korea and other advanced Asian countries), who will eventually take the place of the more traditional farang expat discussed in this thread.

[PeaceBlondie]

Without going back and reading the entire topic again, I think that Mobi wasn't implying, "I'm rich and you're no good." Rather, some posters who might have been envious, or might have different values about social classes, inferred that Mobi said more than he said.

Inflation alone will raise the current retirement income level for a visa from 65K to perhaps 100K, eventually. If the baht stays strong, many who barely qualified on 65K per month will be ineligible to stay here. Yet, a farang expat who spends even 45K every month in Thailand is supporting himself, contributing to the local economy, etc.

Are expats an endangered species? Do we even know what the species look like, from Satun to Mae Sai? Who among us really knows 400 expats, except maybe the ones within 30km of our doorstep? We are diverse in every way. As Bendix just suggested, the next set of expatriates may already be here: Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, even on long term basis.

[canuckamuck]

Without going back and reading the entire topic again, I think that Mobi wasn't implying, "I'm rich and you're no good." Rather, some posters who might have been envious, or might have different values about social classes, inferred that Mobi said more than he said.

Inflation alone will raise the current retirement income level for a visa from 65K to perhaps 100K, eventually. If the baht stays strong, many who barely qualified on 65K per month will be ineligible to stay here. Yet, a farang expat who spends even 45K every month in Thailand is supporting himself, contributing to the local economy, etc.

Are expats an endangered species? Do we even know what the species look like, from Satun to Mae Sai? Who among us really knows 400 expats, except maybe the ones within 30km of our doorstep? We are diverse in every way. As Bendix just suggested, the next set of expatriates may already be here: Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, even on long term basis.

You said it for me peace, good summary.

[Naam]

why is it that any mentioning of income or personal expenditure sparks immediately controversies and accusations? is it Thailand related? having lived in Europe, the U.S. and several other countries i never had that experience.

does it really matter whether somebody spends 500k Baht or 10k a month if in both cases the "spenders" are living a content or perhaps even a happy life?

just my two satangs

[PeaceBlondie]

why is it that any mentioning of income or personal expenditure sparks immediately controversies and accusations? is it Thailand related? having lived in Europe, the U.S. and several other countries i never had that experience.

does it really matter whether somebody spends 500k Baht or 10k a month if in both cases the "spenders" are living a content or perhaps even a happy life?

just my two satangs

So, we can infer from Dr. Naam's last statement, that he only has song satang.

[Mobi]

why is it that any mentioning of income or personal expenditure sparks immediately controversies and accusations? is it Thailand related? having lived in Europe, the U.S. and several other countries i never had that experience.

does it really matter whether somebody spends 500k Baht or 10k a month if in both cases the "spenders" are living a content or perhaps even a happy life?

just my two satangs

I couldn't agree more - and having lived at both ends of the scale I can also confirm that it is possible to to be perfectly happy on any level of income.

In the past I have refused to get drawn into debates about my expenditure - because as you say, it immediately sparks controversy.

I remember once reporting on my monthly electricity expenditure only to receive the approbation of all and sundry on the evils of being a profligate user of energy, and asserting that I am single handedly responsible for global warming.

Then if you have the temerity to say that you spend over 100K per month, you are accused of "importing a western style of life" into Thailand. So if you don't live in a wooden hut on stilts, way out in some Issan village, with nothing but mosquitos and lou Kow to keep you company, a rusty old fan to keep you cool and live on a diet of kow nieo and som tum palah, then you should 'go back from where you came from', as you haven't properly submerged yourself into the true Thai culture and assimilated the Thai way of life.

It's almost as though there's no middle class in Thailand. There's no Thais who enjoy the luxuries of maids, swimming pools, satellite television, new cars, air conditioned houses, golf, holidays abroad.... and so on. They simply don't exist - do they?

It seems it's OK for a farang to live as the poor do, but unacceptable to emulate the middle classes? Horror upon horror!!

TITV

[Felt 35]

Hi Guys; Moby/ Bendix

Envy; well believe that and you will in the end feel great about yourselves.

Could it be possible that some of us Foreigners living here in Thailand come from Nations where your pompous demeanour and wordings about yours fortune and degrading writing about others not so fortunate will be seen as discrimination and very impropriate.

Especially remarkable is it that you make a generalisation like this when living in a country where millions of people never will be fortunate due to the fact that a few ”fortunate” are in charge and never will let the people reach a higher level than what is possible to control.

Great men don’t brag about their fortune when on less fortunate mans land.

[mellow1]

The time has obviously come for many of us Cheap Charlies.The Cheap Charlies who worked all their lives,and now have to live on a retirement income.It is time for the Cheap Charlies to pack up the wives and children,sell their homes,and other possessions, and get out of Thailand.There is no room here for the many retired old people who have to survive on a measly western pension.We have to make room for the easily recognizable people of substance, who are still working, and therefore throwing more money around.Thats the way it is when your old and useless.Thanks you all.

[Mobi]

Hi Guys; Moby/ Bendix

Envy; well believe that and you will in the end feel great about yourselves.

Could it be possible that some of us Foreigners living here in Thailand come from Nations where your pompous demeanour and wordings about yours fortune and degrading writing about others not so fortunate will be seen as discrimination and very impropriate.

Especially remarkable is it that you make a generalisation like this when living in a country where millions of people never will be fortunate due to the fact that a few "fortunate" are in charge and never will let the people reach a higher level than what is possible to control.

Great men don't brag about their fortune when on less fortunate mans land.

Oh dear...sigh.....

As English is clearly not your native tongue I will forgive you your misconceptions and utter failure to comprehend what has been said.

I suppose the subtle nuances and understated humour of us Brits is completely beyond you.

Never mind, flame away if it makes you feel better