President Joe Biden told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria Friday that it was a “difficult decision” to provide Ukraine with cluster munitions for the first time, but that he was ultimately convinced to send the controversial weapons because Kyiv needs ammunition in its counteroffensive against Russia.

The White House announced Friday that the president had approved the transfer of cluster munitions to Ukraine, the latest instance where the US has provided Kyiv with weapons it initially resisted sending into the war.

“It was a very difficult decision on my part. And by the way, I discussed this with our allies, I discussed this with our friends up on the Hill,” Biden said, adding, “The Ukrainians are running out of ammunition.”

 

The cluster munitions that the US will send to Ukraine will be compatible with US-provided 155mm howitzers, a key piece of artillery that has allowed Ukraine to win back territory over the last year.

 

FULL STORY

 

 

According to Jen Psaki, a "potential war crime" back in 2022.   I guess it isn't a potential war crime now. After all, Ukraine does have a history of using these horrible weapons. Used them in 2015 against rebels in their own country, and condemned by Human Rights Watch as a result.

42 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

According to Jen Psaki, a "potential war crime" back in 2022.   I guess it isn't a potential war crime now. After all, Ukraine does have a history of using these horrible weapons. Used them in 2015 against rebels in their own country, and condemned by Human Rights Watch as a result.

Rebels are a military target.  Russia used them against civilians. 

11 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Rebels are a military target.  Russia used them against civilians. 

Not according to Human Rights Watch;

 

Ukrainian government forces used cluster munitions in populated areas in Donetsk city in early October 2014, Human Rights Watch said today. The use of cluster munitions in populated areas violates the laws of war due to the indiscriminate nature of the weapon and may amount to war crimes.

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions

Why not instead give Ukraine long-range cruise missiles to retaliate in kind every time the Russians hit Ukraine? Every Russian missile hitting Kiew or Ukrainian infrastructure should be followed by a Ukrainian missile hitting Moscow or Russian infrastructure. The Russians will never stop if they feel immune in their own country. The prohibition to hit Russia imposed upon Ukraine is why this conflict drags on and on.

18 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Not according to Human Rights Watch;

 

Ukrainian government forces used cluster munitions in populated areas in Donetsk city in early October 2014, Human Rights Watch said today. The use of cluster munitions in populated areas violates the laws of war due to the indiscriminate nature of the weapon and may amount to war crimes.

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions

When soldiers and weapons are dispersed in civilian areas, civilians get hurt.

 

The situation would not have occurred if Ukraine had not been invaded by little green men who looked and acted very much like Russian soldiers.

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

When soldiers and weapons are dispersed in civilian areas, civilians get hurt.

 

The situation would not have occurred if Ukraine had not been invaded by little green men who looked and acted very much like Russian soldiers.

Nice job moving the goalposts.  

1 hour ago, Hanaguma said:

According to Jen Psaki, a "potential war crime" back in 2022.   I guess it isn't a potential war crime now. After all, Ukraine does have a history of using these horrible weapons. Used them in 2015 against rebels in their own country, and condemned by Human Rights Watch as a result.

Russia uses cluster munitions, in the past and in their current war in the Ukraine. They have used them far more extensively than the Ukraine in this current war. Ex KGB agent, Vlad Putins Russia, is only getting, what they give. Good call, Joe.

2 minutes ago, Dcheech said:

Russia uses cluster munitions, in the past and in their current war in the Ukraine. They have used them far more extensively than the Ukraine in this current war. Ex KGB agent, Vlad Putins Russia, is only getting, what they give. Good call, Joe.

Given Ukraine's less than stellar history using them, I think it is a bad call.

But the bigger problem is that it shows the West collectively is running short of conventional munitions and the like.  Hopefully this won't embolden actual enemies like China to take advantage. 

53 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Nice job moving the goalposts.  

It is a policy so well established it has its own term:  collateral damage.

30 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Given Ukraine's less than stellar history using them, I think it is a bad call.

But the bigger problem is that it shows the West collectively is running short of conventional munitions and the like.  Hopefully this won't embolden actual enemies like China to take advantage. 

The shortage of munitions on both sides has been in the news for months now. 

22 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I heard Ukraine's military budget was now third in the world.  

Well, the aid offered to Ukraine so far is more than the entire Russian defence budget for a year. One wonders if we are getting value for our money, especially when it could be better spent at home.

Off topic deflection posts removed

Seems like Russia's MOD is in meltdown over Biden's decision with alternate reality rhetoric too.......

 

“Russia, realizing the threat that such ammunition poses to the civilian population, has refrained and is refraining from using them in a special operation” the minister said on Tuesday. “If the United States supplies cluster munitions to Ukraine, the Russian Armed Forces will be forced to use similar weapons against the Armed Forces of Ukraine as a response.”

 

Russia’s Chaotic Meltdown Over American Cluster Bombs Begins (msn.com)

6 minutes ago, LosLobo said:

Seems like Russia's MOD is in meltdown over Biden's decision with alternate reality rhetoric too.......

 

“Russia, realizing the threat that such ammunition poses to the civilian population, has refrained and is refraining from using them in a special operation” the minister said on Tuesday. “If the United States supplies cluster munitions to Ukraine, the Russian Armed Forces will be forced to use similar weapons against the Armed Forces of Ukraine as a response.”

 

Russia’s Chaotic Meltdown Over American Cluster Bombs Begins (msn.com)

Yes! They're on the run now!

Unattributed and just plain troll posts and replies have been removed

On 7/11/2023 at 7:52 AM, Hanaguma said:

Given Ukraine's less than stellar history using them, I think it is a bad call.

But the bigger problem is that it shows the West collectively is running short of conventional munitions and the like.  Hopefully this won't embolden actual enemies like China to take advantage. 

Ask the people of Ukraine if they approve the use of cluster munitions., it is they that will suffer the consequences.

 

I think you will find that they are more than happy for them to be used.

 

If you found yourself under the sort of cluster munitions that the Russians have been using, ever since the start of their unashamedly destructive, brutal, murderous, unprovoked invasion, you would be happy to see them used against the person who had been using them against you. 

 

It would be as stupid not to use them as not using machine guns against an enemy that was using them against you.

 

The significant argument against them is the possibility that they stay live and dangerous after their initial deployment..........due to failure to explode at that time. They then possibly detonate if disturbed post-battle/conflict.  This has been true of all munitions.......civilians still being maimed by old shells/UXB/mines around the world.

 

With cluster weapons the problem is exacerbated by the greater number of individual warheads dispensed during the deployment of a single munition.

 

it's really just a question of numbers.

 

"The M483A1 DPICM artillery-delivered cluster bombs have a reported dud rate of 14%. In July 2023, the failure rate of Russian cluster bombs during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine was reported to be at 40 percent or more."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition

 

No reason to suppose that Russia has sought to improve their failure rates.

 

Neither Ukraine or Russia signatory to the convention against their use.

 

 

 

Edited July 22, 20232 yr by Enoon