The price war on EVs may harm interests of customers

[Social Media]

 

The CEO of the Volkswagen Group's Chinese operations, Ralf Brandstätter, has warned of recent developments within the electric vehicle market, suggesting high capital investment and discounting “will ultimately harm the interests of consumers”.

In an address at the 2023 China Automobile Forum hosted by the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers in Shanghai, Brandstätter said the electric vehicle market is “overheating”.

“Currently, there are more than 120 car makers within the [electric vehicle] market, and about 150 new models will be launched in 2023. Intense market competition and high battery prices make them face severe economic pressure. Short-term sales success requires extremely high capital investment,” he said.

 

[Henryford]

Massive discounting is the only way to get anyone to buy an EV. Most of the manufacurers have already gone bust in China with tens of thousands of unwanted EVs abandoned in fields to rot.

[stoner]

time to rethink how we use resources on this planet. 

[JBChiangRai]

29 minutes ago, Henryford said:

Massive discounting is the only way to get anyone to buy an EV. Most of the manufacurers have already gone bust in China with tens of thousands of unwanted EVs abandoned in fields to rot.

Fake news

[KhunLA]

Competition is a beautiful thing.  Enough with the price gouging of EVs.

 

When 2 of the same spec'd cars are on sale, and one is 2X the price ... competition is the only thing that stops that price gouging.

 

CEO of the Volkswagen ... there's a trustworthy guy, as if anything he says is credible.  VW wouldn't be a manufacturer of autos I would even consider.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_controversies

 

 

[BritManToo]

11 minutes ago, stoner said:

time to rethink how we use resources on this planet. 

Nobody ever asked me, so please don't say 'we'.

But if you did ask me, nuclear, oil, gas and coal are the most sensible fuels to use in temperate climates.

 

Volkswagen and Fanta ....... two Nazi created companies whose products I will never use.

[Henryford]

11 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Fake news

Just look up the Youtube video by Serpentza about 2 weeks ago.  Fields and fields full of abandoned EVs. Are they fake?

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, Henryford said:

Just look up the Youtube video by Serpentza about 2 weeks ago.  Fields and fields full of abandoned EVs. Are they fake?

Absolutely that video is fake news, it's why I called your post.

[Henryford]

11 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Absolutely that video is fake news, it's why I called your post.

Is that you Xi?

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, Henryford said:

Is that you Xi?

Winston Sterzel aka SerpentZA is a Chinese hater who hasn't been to China in years since he left expecting his imminent arrest.  Most of his anti-Chinese rants have been debunked, they are designed to appeal to a certain kind of Westerner.

[stoner]

31 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Nobody ever asked me, so please don't say 'we'.

no need to ask you. you don't care. 

[In the jungle]

30 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Nobody ever asked me, so please don't say 'we'.

But if you did ask me, nuclear, oil, gas and coal are the most sensible fuels to use in temperate climates.

 

Volkswagen and Fanta ....... two Nazi created companies whose products I will never use.

Fanta is a brand of the American Coca Cola company.  It was created during WW2 and Coca Cola profited handsomely from selling it in Nazi Germany during the war.

[Social Media]

22 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Absolutely that video is fake news, it's why I called your post.

 

From the others idea of the coin so to speak....

 

"So take the YouTuber's allegations with a pinch of salt. They reportedly belong to a failed car-sharing service called Microcity, which had thousands of Kandi 11 models, as documented by the Chinese state-owned newspaper People's Daily."

[vinny41]

3 hours ago, Social Media said:

 

From the others idea of the coin so to speak....

 

"So take the YouTuber's allegations with a pinch of salt. They reportedly belong to a failed car-sharing service called Microcity, which had thousands of Kandi 11 models, as documented by the Chinese state-owned newspaper People's Daily."

It would appear this field of cars is more of a failure of car sharing (Car rental without anyone cleaning of making sure the car is in A1 condition ready for next Rental)

Their growth was sparked partially by attempting to cash in on the sharing economy (even though, again, this is closer to rental than sharing) 

https://www.scmp.com/abacus/tech/article/3029238/thousands-shared-electric-cars-seen-discarded-hangzhou

 

[vinny41]

Of the nearly 850,000 new cars registered in Thailand last year, only around 1% were EVs, according to government data. But between January and April this year, that proportion rose to more than 6%.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-led-ev-boom-thailand-threatens-japans-grip-key-market-2023-07-09/#:~:text=Of the nearly 850%2C000 new,rose to more than 6%.

 

For some brands that sell both EV's and ICE I suspect they are not fussed on what you buy so long as its a vehicle from their Brands

I suspect when EV's reach a total share of the market of 25-30% of sales that we will see a fightback from ICE brands a major cost cutting promotion to undercut EV sales

EV price cuts occurred today in China

GM cuts Lyriq EV price in China by 14% as market pressures intensify

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/gm-cuts-lyriq-ev-price-china-by-14-after-vw-discounts-2023-07-10/

[KhunLA]

9 hours ago, vinny41 said:

Of the nearly 850,000 new cars registered in Thailand last year, only around 1% were EVs, according to government data. But between January and April this year, that proportion rose to more than 6%.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/china-led-ev-boom-thailand-threatens-japans-grip-key-market-2023-07-09/#:~:text=Of the nearly 850%2C000 new,rose to more than 6%.

 

For some brands that sell both EV's and ICE I suspect they are not fussed on what you buy so long as its a vehicle from their Brands

I suspect when EV's reach a total share of the market of 25-30% of sales that we will see a fightback from ICE brands a major cost cutting promotion to undercut EV sales

EV price cuts occurred today in China

GM cuts Lyriq EV price in China by 14% as market pressures intensify

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/gm-cuts-lyriq-ev-price-china-by-14-after-vw-discounts-2023-07-10/

Interesting #s in first half of post ... the 1% & 6%

 

Somehow, in my mine, I'm equating that to the 1% & 5%'ers of the higher income levels of people that control something like 70-80% of finances.

 

Maybe they are just a wee bit smarter with their finances, and how they acquired so much.

 

Using that same savvy business & financial sense, in their transport choices.

 

Always good to be the dumbest person in the room ...

... as long as you are learning.

[JonnyF]

I'd say the lack of charging stations, range anxiety and the cost of renewing batteries is more harmful to the interest of customers.

 

EV's are probably best suited to commuting in congested cities like Bangkok. Unfortunately, huge swathes of the commuters live in condos where it's difficult to charge them overnight. 

 

I say this as an owner of an electric mountain bike and a Hybrid Toyota so I am not anti EV, I just think fully Electric vehicles have a lot of drawbacks for many people. My car does 1000 kms on a tank and can be recharged (refueled) in a minute. I don't even need to exit the vehicle to do so. EV's are still a long way off that. 

[fredob43]

On 7/10/2023 at 9:32 AM, JBChiangRai said:

Fake news

I have just watched an interesting Vlog on EV by The Mac Master (YouTube) on how much monies he has lost on his EV in the first year. Suggest you EV peeps have a good look at his vlog and then comment. 

[KhunLA]

Don't know about the 'mac master', and his situation outside of TH.  For me it's been win win, and ROI will pay off in a very short time.

 

Invested to upgrade to an EV.   My ICEv's 2 yr depreciation was about 10% more than I'd prefer, but sold that for ฿400k

 

EV ฿949K - 400K = ฿549K 

Insured value if totaled ฿960k ????????

 

฿549k ÷ ฿35 (petrol price) = 15,685 L of 91

ROI after 220k kms (15,685 X 14kp/L)

 

About 10 yrs or less for us, and the cost to upgrade, paid for itself, not counting the 20 oil changes, 5 ish total tune ups avoided.  Along with exhaust system upkeep.

 

That's without spending another ฿549k for petrol, and at today's prices.

 

If getting just half the expected battery life, (900k kms) and still having 70-80% capacity, the wife is good for another 10+ yrs of almost free transport.  After that, she can add the 10-25kWh of battery left to the solar system, if the rest of the car kraps out, selling the motor of course.

 

Someone want to point out those negatives again, because I missed them.

[billd766]

On 7/10/2023 at 9:32 AM, JBChiangRai said:

Fake news

Prove that the news is fake.

[billd766]

On 7/10/2023 at 9:47 AM, JBChiangRai said:

Absolutely that video is fake news, it's why I called your post.

 

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

Prove that the news is fake.

Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy

 

That video is actually using a failed car sharing's stock of cars seen here https://www.scmp.com/abacus/tech/article/3029238/thousands-shared-electric-cars-seen-discarded-hangzhou and misrepresenting it as the manufacturer stockpiling.

 

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

[billd766]

30 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy

 

That video is actually using a failed car sharing's stock of cars seen here https://www.scmp.com/abacus/tech/article/3029238/thousands-shared-electric-cars-seen-discarded-hangzhou and misrepresenting it as the manufacturer stockpiling.

 

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

So which is the correct video link?

 

The one that you provided or the one that I provided.

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

So which is the correct video link?

 

The one that you provided or the one that I provided.

The guy in the link you posted (Winston Sterzel) has been discredited as a China hater, he can't go to China, hasn't been there in years.  Most of his videos are anti-China.

[billd766]

25 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The guy in the link you posted (Winston Sterzel) has been discredited as a China hater, he can't go to China, hasn't been there in years.  Most of his videos are anti-China.

And that makes him wrong?

 

YMMV

[Fruit Trader]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy

 

That video is actually using a failed car sharing's stock of cars seen here https://www.scmp.com/abacus/tech/article/3029238/thousands-shared-electric-cars-seen-discarded-hangzhou and misrepresenting it as the manufacturer stockpiling.

 

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

 

35 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

The guy in the link you posted (Winston Sterzel) has been discredited as a China hater, he can't go to China, hasn't been there in years.  Most of his videos are anti-China.

There are two sides to the discarded EV story in China.

 

1. Cars dumped from failed schemes subsidised by the government.
2. Cars registered then dumped in fields so that manufacturers can meet government subsidy numbers.

 

The video in question clearly shows both sides of the story and then goes on to talk about environmental issues. Those struggling to understand should listen carefully as the video makes the transition at 3:36.

 

I guess one can expect videos like these to come under heavy attack from Chinaboo's and the army of online soldiers paid to keep China looking squeaky clean.

The creator of said video Winston Sterzel; has quite the story to tell about his China adventure which includes the making of Conquering Southern China (8.4 IMDB rating). I have only scratched the surface but it quickly becomes apparent that he fled China with his Chinese wife not because he hates China or its people.

 

 

 

[Gweiloman]

20 hours ago, fredob43 said:

I have just watched an interesting Vlog on EV by The Mac Master (YouTube) on how much monies he has lost on his EV in the first year. Suggest you EV peeps have a good look at his vlog and then comment. 

I love watching The Mac Master’s videos. I’m a subscriber to his channel.

 

However, his videos are rather misleading and he intentionally does things to paint EVs in a negative light. For eg, he insists on charging his Taycan to 100% knowing full well that it will make his journey longer as opposed to doing it the more efficient way and he then stresses how much longer the journey took as opposed to an ICE.

 

With regards to how much he “lost” (on paper), a Porsche Taycan is hardly representative of a normal EV. Premium cars depreciate much faster than normal family cars. Any motor vehicle owner knows that.

 

I should also point out that he actually loves driving his EV. His main gripe is with the charging infrastructure in the UK and the current high prices of electricity, thanks to the policies of the collective west. For the majority of EV and potential EV owners in Thailand, I would argue that purchasing an EV is the more cost effective option.

[Issanman]

Update on the abandoned cars:

 

 

[fredob43]

That's of cause you don't add on the deprecation of an EV against and Diesel lump. Here a diesel car will hold their price big time. Then there's the added time on trips to take into consideration. + the cost of coffee +++ while you wait for the thing to charge. (Not even going down the route of one having to go slower due to the Electric used if one travels fast) + As you say EV are a lot more expensive to start with.

I can do a trip in My Diesel 2.8lt Tuna say to Pattaya a distance of some 500km from where I live in 5.5 hours with a coffee/snack stop.  Oh I can do that return trip with one 5 Min: fill up tank of fuel. Try that in an EV.

I will give you if you travel short journeys and charge at home you might get you monies back in say 5 + years. Then we are back to deprecation. Question. How much will you get back if you tried to sell your EV in say 5 years??? An answer no one seems to know at present.

 

[KhunLA]

EVs don't cost more.  And much less to operate & maintain.  To state otherwise is simply false.

 

I'm O&A now, and our charging stop is a welcome break, after 2-3-4 hrs on Thai roads.

 

The fuel/energy savings vs our past petrol cost (91), makes more trips available.  I personally would never own diesel, personal choice, as it's a disgusting fuel.  Same as I prefer the EV's performance over ICEV.  UP2U, so my #s are if using 91.

 

How many O&As do most normal Thais take?  Or even retired expats.  Most never leave their province, or just a couple times a year.  Some don't have the time, some don't have the funds.  Our savings in fuel/energy yesterday, basically paid for our hotel, or dinner.

 

100% top up is 330 vs 825 baht if using 91 for the same 320 kms.  On the road, FREE at home with excess solar.  Actually get more kms per kWh at home, local driving, 360 kms, so FREE vs almost 900 baht when local.

 

I drive the speed limit, safer, and it's the law ... cheaper also, for those that pay those fines. 

 

ICE folks harp on about the inconvenience and time it takes to charge.   That is only when, if you think it is an inconvenience, we don't, when you ARE O&A.

 

Somehow y'all forget the time & money spent every week, month, at the petrol station filling up.  5-10 minutes, each time, each week, every other, or even once a month if not driving much.  Takes me 30 sec to plug in at home.   At home, not extra driving, no money spent, no waiting, no fumes.

 

5-10 mins a week, time 52 weeks ... and you compare that to 30-45 mins, when O&A in an EV.   Your calculator needs batteries.

 

The more I'm O&A, the more money I save, the quicker the ROI for same price or less vehicle. If not O&A much, then you save even more.

 

ICEV at same comfort level, cost more.  ICEVs can't match the performance for the same price, not even close.

 

If not O&A a lot, then all that time saved, that ICEV owners waste filling every week, along with forking out 1-2-3-5k or more a month for petrol.

 

91 is 36+ baht now.  We average 20k kms a year, @ 14km/L, = 4285 baht a month to fuel the ICE version of our car.  No need for 2 oil changes a year, and no tune up every few years.  No worries about the exhaust system finally needing maintenance or replacement.

 

Tell me again how cheap the ICEV is again ?  And how much time you save by going to the petrol station, dishing out money ever time, instead of simply plugging in at home when you hop out of car, and simply unplug when you hop in, every few days.

 

If you are an impatient person, then an EV for O&A is probably not for you.   But that is the only reason.