How Do I Stay In Thailand With Internet Business

[Khun Bob]

Hi

I'd like to live in Thailand for 9 to 12 months and have some ideas on how I can keep an income and do something which is interesting to me. I would like make money through internet based businesses, but I am not clear on what the best visa solution is to do so and stay on the right side of the Thai Law. I would like to try some business ideas I have. The income is not essential as I can live of savings.

I can divide the intended kinds of business, one being :

* I'm not employed in Thailand

* I do not sell to Thailand

* I do not buy services or products in Thailand to sell on

* I make money outside of Thailand and either transfer money into a Thai bank account or use ATM's in Thailand to withdraw cash for an overseas account

* I do visa runs when necessary

* I do not compete with Thai companies

* The website is not hosted in Thailand and no Thai bank accounts are used

* There is no indication of being associated with Thailand on the website

* I work from where I live in Thailand

Also there is a second situation, which is the same as above but :

* I buy Thai products or services and sell them on - this will involve varying degrees of interaction with Thai's

* There is possible competition with Thai companies, but not directly intended and I would attempt to avoid this

* I establish or utilise existing order fulfilment operations

From other related posts, it seems that with the first case, there are likely to be few problems and if I can demonstrate having money and/or regular income then the authorities would be happy with this. Exactly what the best visa is I'm not sure ?

I am curious to know about venturing into the second situation. Would this require a Non-Imm 'B' visa ? If I have a 'B' visa can I do this without a work permit ?

Could I do this on a Non Imm 'O' visa ?

If you have any comments or suggestions generally, this would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

[wolf5370]

Legally speaking, you need a work permit for either (even if it is unpaid) as you are working in LOS (cyberspace doesn't count)!

I am only answering because no one else has, and I think it is a useful question. Hopefully, people with more knowledge in this area will come back.

The interseting thing is that you would be self employed. Alternatives would be to start a company in your home country, and work for that company in LOS as an office - may be helpful if you are selling services or goods from LOS as you could be counted as an exporter and thus "a good guy" to the BOIs (as long as you sell the right stuff). I'm not sure if the minimum wage clauses hit you if you are working for a foreign company.

You could start a company in LOS instead, but there are rules as to % ownership (foreign directors) and the requirement to hire 4 Thais.

There are many poeple (foreigners) doing IT services in LOS. However, I'm not sure if they do it legally.

Might be better to call it a hobby and not a job - get the money sent direct to a foreign bank and just declare your savings and foreign income from investments.

[Sunny Valentine]

I remember a thread some month ago on the Thai Immigration Site, where thid admin1 stated (although between the lines) that from his point of view this variant 1 would seem ok.

On the other side I know that the term "work" is defined in Thai Law without taking in consideration whether you partake in Thai economy or not at all.

Which makes me think: Imagine I am on holiday in Thailand. But: During my touristic visit:

I receive some phone calls from the office, asking for advise. Also send and receive some work-related Emails.

Also (imagine I am self-employed in farangland) I meet a possible business client say at a bar, and discuss some future business with him in a relaxed atmosphere. I even spend some hours the next day putting together some info about my company and present him with an offer from my company.

Or I spend time writing a novel, which might be published in Farangland some time.

Or ........

I guess that with the definaition of work (according to thaiimmigration.com Admin1:)

The definition of work according to Thai Law:

“WORK means, to engage in work by exerting physical energy, or using knowledge, whether or not in consideration of wages, or other benefits”.

even would put the regular workout from a professional sports crack who is on holiday in Thailand as illegal work.

So, Thailand cannot strictly follow this rule, or 90% of al tourists would be illegal (I guess even thinking about a concept related to work at home would fall into this category, though the evidence will be hard to produce .... But two work-mates talking about reorganising some affairs at their company, in case an official listens to them?)

What do the legal experts here in this forum think about this topic?

The fact that this rules absolutely makes no sense will not automatically stop Thai authorities to enforce it in case they feel like, I am afraid, judging from some stupidity happening all the time.

Sunny

[alex_4000]

Alternatives would be to start a company in your home country, and work for that company in LOS as an office

to set that office up is, as i understand, even more hassle, and way too expensive.

just make it your hobby like mentioned above! (situation 1) - situation 2 is a different story im afraid

many people are doing this and im sure you already read quite some posts regarding that topic around here.

keep it quiet and youll have nothing to worry: if theres nobody blackmailing you, immigration police will not have the will and the manpower in the first place to be combing cyberspace for you anyway...!

to do it 100% legally: you will need permission (wp) and you will not get it

[Sunbelt Asia]

to do it 100% legally: you will need permission (wp) and you will not get it

What to bet? ;-) I'll guarantee that he would get a work permit as long as he has a 2 million baht registered company and he’s the Director. Work permits are not that difficult to obtain if you want to be legal. Cost of course involved, but the Thai government wants the tax money. In my opinion, no excuse not to be legal.

You could start a company in LOS instead, but there are rules as to % ownership (foreign directors) and the requirement to hire 4 Thais.

I’m sorry but you’re mistaken on the requirement to hire 4 Thais. No requirement exists for the work permit.

Extension of stay for one year... yes you need 4 Thais PER foreigner but this is not a requirement to get the work permit itself. If you cannot meet that requirement, you simply do a visa run every 90 days.

A foreigner can be a director, it does not have to be Thai.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[Phil Conners]

Sunbelt Asia -

Out of curiousity ... assuming from your reply this is a service your company provide - what would your company charge to provide the legalities to make someone like the original poster fully legal in Thailand, including the company formation and work permit?

What would be the annual renewal costs (wp, accounting for the purpose of Thai taxation).

[alex_4000]

I'll guarantee that he would get a work permit as long as he has a 2 million baht registered company and he’s the Director.

sunbelt, reckon youre right! but from the original post i was assuming our poster just wants to stay in thailand 9-12 months, do some business but not start a company... sorry, didnt mean to mislead...

[Sunbelt Asia]

Out of curiousity ... assuming from your reply this is a service your company provide - what would your company charge to provide the legalities to make someone like the original poster fully legal in Thailand, including the company formation and work permit?

35,120 Baht which is including all legal and government fees.... Company reg for 2 million, Tax id, corp id, VAT, work permit and government fee for company reg and work permit.

What would be the annual renewal costs (wp, accounting for the purpose of Thai taxation).

18,000 Baht per year. Plus then the accountant fees to file.

wants to stay in thailand 9-12 months, do some business but not start a company... sorry, didnt mean to mislead...

No problem. Thanks for the input on your post to him. I did feel your overall thoughts were correct.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[Khun Bob]

Thanks for all you replies - there is some very useful information in there. I understand from comments here that to be totally legal then I would need to have a non-imm visa and a work permit. To get to do what I would like to do I could start a company as suggested by Sun Belt.

My situation is that I could do this, but I currently only intend on being in Thailand for 9 months to 1 year. Creating a company for this short time, where the prospect of profits is not clear doesn’t quite add up to me at the moment. I understand that there are necessary legal reasons for this.

This got me thinking - In the UK for self employed workers there are umbrella companies that self employed people can work for. I believe that for someone who is on a short term contract these are a reasonable option as the company exists and provides some useful services. Do such umbrella companies exist in Thailand, to enable foreigners to work there as self employed for a short term ? If they don’t exist, would they be feasible ?

Also some interesting points raised by wolf.

* Would the authorities be happy if I just called a small internet business (Situation 1 only) a hobby ? I wonder if anyone has experience of this ?

* Creating a company in my home country UK, would be straight forward - but what would i need to do to work for that company legally in Thailand ?

I found a few interesting articles on thaiimmigration.com, mentioned by Sunny earlier.

http://www.thaiimmigration.com/inv/index.p...=55&hl=internet

In summary, this guy has an internet business outside of Thailand and wants to know what he needs - answer is a tourist visa

http://www.thaiimmigration.com/inv/index.p...=46&hl=internet

Guy says he is a freelance software engineer and has a Thai wife - can he do work over the internet on non imm o visa - answer is ok

Look forward to your replies and insight

[Phil Conners]

I think the second link makes it quite clear that as long as you're not doing business in Thailand you're safe.

[astral]

I think the second link makes it quite clear that as long as you're not doing business in Thailand you're safe.

The trouble is that, the link is from Immigration.

They have NOTHING to do with work permits.

The work permits come from the Labour Dept who may have a very different view point.

Firstly I would think you meet the requirements of working, which are very broad.

Secondly if you are here for more than 180 days in a calender year you are liable for tax on income, even if it comes from overseas, unless you can show that the income has already been taxed in a jursidiction that has a dual tax agreement with Thailand.

[Phil Conners]

Astral, just for the sake of argument. Say you are a tourist here for a week. While you are here, laying around the pool, your mobile rings. It is your office, they ask you where did you put the file "X". You tell them. By the Thai Labor dept. definition you just got yourself in jail.

They want your tax money but don't want to give you a work permit. Nice one.

[astral]

Astral, just for the sake of argument. Say you are a tourist here for a week. While you are here, laying around the pool, your mobile rings. It is your office, they ask you where did you put the file "X". You tell them. By the Thai Labor dept. definition you just got yourself in jail.

They want your tax money but don't want to give you a work permit. Nice one.

By the strict letter of the law YES!!

Even people attending conferences/meetings etc here are supposed to have work permits. I know it is rather crazy, but that is the way it works.

I am a contractor, and the company I work for ( a multi-national) has asked me to conduct some classes here, but they do not want to bother with a work permit. I have declined. It is not worth the risk of arrest and deportation. I have a Thai wife and family and we are happy here and I do not want to jeopardise that.

As a result the company flies someone in from overseas, and I fly out to conduct classes overseas.

Crazy yes, but a result of the labour laws and the Thai's reluctance to do more than they really need to!

Once, twice, I might get away with it, but the more you push the envelope the bigger the risk becomes. Immigration is tightening up and other depts will follow.

[Khun Bob]

This got me thinking - In the UK for self employed workers there are umbrella companies that self employed people can work for. I believe that for someone who is on a short term contract these are a reasonable option as the company exists and provides some useful services. Do such umbrella companies exist in Thailand, to enable foreigners to work there as self employed for a short term ? If they don’t exist, would they be feasible ?

Also some interesting points raised by wolf.

* Would the authorities be happy if I just called a small internet business (Situation 1 only) a hobby ? I wonder if anyone has experience of this ?

* Creating a company in my home country UK, would be straight forward - but what would i need to do to work for that company legally in Thailand ?

Anyone care to comment on the above...

Thanks