Retirement Extension

[paddypower]

14 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

It would help immensely if you could state which order number you're quoting clauses 1 - 5 from, which I suspect is original order 327-2557 dated 2014.
The alien:
(1) Must have been granted a non-immigrant visa (NON-IM). (
2) Must be 50 years of age or over. 

(3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month: or

(4) On the filing date, the applicant must have funds deposited in a bank in Thailand of no less than Baht 800,000 for the past three months. For the first year only, the applicant must have proof of a deposit account in which said amount of funds has been maintained for no less than 60 days prior to the filing date: or

(5) Must have an annual earning and fluids deposited with a bank totalling no less than Baht 800,0000 as of the filing date

 

The criteria requirements using the income method were updated Dec 2018 following the US, UK and Australian Embassies ceasing income letters, which until that point were used by all nationalities to provide evidence of pension incomes. The amendment allowed Immigration to accept monthly overseas transfer to an individual's bank account as an alternative method for those now unable to obtain an Embassy Income letter.

In relation to clause (3) using the 65K monthly income transfers to a Thai bank, the updated requirements (2.18 and 2.22) dated Dec 2018 are in order Amend 138-2557 (2018 ) clause 2.18-2.22 for Thai bank income ENG.pdf 

In relation to clause (4) using the 800K funds deposited in a Thai bank account, the updated requirements from Jan 2019 (2.22) are in order 35-2561 (2019 (changed clause 2.22 of 327-2557 ENG.pdf 

 

Prior to 2019 using the 800K funds method, said funds only had to be in a Thai bank account for 3 months prior to the date of application, or 2 months for the very first extension application.
35/2561 changed those requirements, which are now 800K deposited in a Thai bank at least 2 months prior to the date of application, and for 3 months after being granted the extension. You can then withdraw funds 3 months after the extension is issued, but the remaining balance must not fall below 400K. (Clause 4 of 35/2561.)

 

If it's your intention to use the monthly income method of 65K per month for your next extension application, provided you have met the requirements you agreed to at the point of obtaining your previous extension, using the 800K funds method (that is maintained a balance of 800K for 3 months thereafter, and a minimum balance of 400K for the remainder, and you can meet the monthly income requirements, which in your case should be an Embassy Income letter, then after your next extension is issued based on income, you can withdraw any remaining funds.

got it, finally :) thanks

[paddypower]

On 11/3/2023 at 9:41 AM, CMBob said:

It is certainly true that the funds only have to be in a Thai bank for 2 months prior to application for those converting to a Non-O visa based on retirement from either an exempt entry or tourist visa.  It's a bit more dicey when talking about converting from the 65k/month method to the "money in the bank" method.

When renewing an extension based on the "money in the bank" method, one must show the standard bank letter and the one-year information (showing 800k in the bank for 3 months after the last application and 2 months prior to the new application....with a minimum of 400k for all other times).  I suspect most immigration officers here in CM would require that for any renewal of an extension based on the "money in the bank" method regardless of the illogical conclusion that this would require the applicant to essentially comply with both methods for the year prior to the new application seeking to change methods.

a late response - you and others have finally persuaded me that I will have to comply with both methods, when changing from the 800k method (Jan 2024) to the income method (Jan 2025. I must dig out 'Breakfast in America' and start playing 'The Logical Song' on rotation. :)

[paddypower]

55 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

It would help immensely if you could state which order number you're quoting clauses 1 - 5 from, which I suspect is original order 327-2557 dated 2014.
The alien:
(1) Must have been granted a non-immigrant visa (NON-IM). (
2) Must be 50 years of age or over. 

(3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month: or

(4) On the filing date, the applicant must have funds deposited in a bank in Thailand of no less than Baht 800,000 for the past three months. For the first year only, the applicant must have proof of a deposit account in which said amount of funds has been maintained for no less than 60 days prior to the filing date: or

(5) Must have an annual earning and fluids deposited with a bank totalling no less than Baht 800,0000 as of the filing date

 

The criteria requirements using the income method were updated Dec 2018 following the US, UK and Australian Embassies ceasing income letters, which until that point were used by all nationalities to provide evidence of pension incomes. The amendment allowed Immigration to accept monthly overseas transfer to an individual's bank account as an alternative method for those now unable to obtain an Embassy Income letter.

In relation to clause (3) using the 65K monthly income transfers to a Thai bank, the updated requirements (2.18 and 2.22) dated Dec 2018 are in order Amend 138-2557 (2018 ) clause 2.18-2.22 for Thai bank income ENG.pdf 

In relation to clause (4) using the 800K funds deposited in a Thai bank account, the updated requirements from Jan 2019 (2.22) are in order 35-2561 (2019 (changed clause 2.22 of 327-2557 ENG.pdf 

 

Prior to 2019 using the 800K funds method, said funds only had to be in a Thai bank account for 3 months prior to the date of application, or 2 months for the very first extension application.
35/2561 changed those requirements, which are now 800K deposited in a Thai bank at least 2 months prior to the date of application, and for 3 months after being granted the extension. You can then withdraw funds 3 months after the extension is issued, but the remaining balance must not fall below 400K. (Clause 4 of 35/2561.)

 

If it's your intention to use the monthly income method of 65K per month for your next extension application, provided you have met the requirements you agreed to at the point of obtaining your previous extension, using the 800K funds method (that is maintained a balance of 800K for 3 months thereafter, and a minimum balance of 400K for the remainder), and you can meet the monthly income requirements, which in your case should be an Embassy Income letter, then after your next extension is issued based on income, you can withdraw any remaining funds.

I keep missing the middle bit. Referring to Order 35/2561 Retirement 2.22 criteria listing (5) says (quote) must have annual earnings and fund deposited with a Thai commercial bank totalling no less than THB 800,00 until the filing date. I took a hard copy of this to IO. As I posted previously, the officer refused to accept my proposal of the combination method:  750,000 pension (not remitted equally every month of 2023) plus 200,000 on term deposit for the previous 12 months. Since I did not use the income method in Jan 2023, the frequency of my transfers to Thailand in 2023 is irrelevant. All that is relevant is that they totalled 750,000, certified by a SCB Bank detailed printout. This was a preliminary (planning) meeting. I wanted to draw down my TD from 800k to 200k, after applying for the extension.. That way, I could carry on into the 2024/5 year, with 200k on deposit, rather than  being obligated to hold 800k on deposit, for 3 months and so on. Every piece of advice here seems to suggests that I cannot do that. To be brutally honest, I get obsessed about stuff like this. I'll follow the law, to the letter, but damnit if they move the goal posts. as I wrrrote elsewhere, maybe better to find an agent who will follow my thinking. (altho' 77, I'm still a spolied brat ;)

Edited January 8 by paddypower
spell

[Liquorice]

7 hours ago, paddypower said:

I keep missing the middle bit. Referring to Order 35/2561 Retirement 2.22 criteria listing (5) says (quote) must have annual earnings and fund deposited with a Thai commercial bank totalling no less than THB 800,00 until the filing date. I took a hard copy of this to IO. As I posted previously, the officer refused to accept my proposal of the combination method: 

The combination method. 

So vague and poorly written, it leaves itself open to different interpretations.

 

35/2561. Retirement 2.22, clause (5).

(5) Must have annual earnings and fund deposited with a commercial bank in Thailand totalling of no less than THB 800,000 until the filing date. The said funds must remain in the account prior to and after the permission is granted, and the alien can make a withdrawal under the same conditions as stated in (4).

 

So, what does clause (4) state in relation to the funds part.

(4) At least 2 months prior to filing date, and at least 3 months after being granted permission, the alien must have funds deposited in a bank in Thailand of no less than THB 800,000. The alien can then withdraw the funds 3 months after being granted permission, and the remaining balance must be no less than THB 400,000.

 

In (5) above, what exactly is meany by 'under the same conditions as (4).
Does that mean after 3 months you can withdraw half the funds you're using for the combination method if that happened to be THB 400,000 (?). OR, does it mean after 3 months you can withdraw half the funds, providing said funds being used comply with the requirement of 'and the remaining balance must be no less than THB 400,000'.

 

The senior IO at my IO has a clear understanding and interpretation that when using the combination method, the requirement of the funds part can only be met if maintaining a balance of no less than THB 400,000, the remainder proof of income.

Also, as a Canadian national, my IO would only accept proof of income from an Embassy income letter, purely because it's available.

 

Other IO's, I know, have a different interpretation and will accept THB 200,000 funds and the remainder as proof of income to meet the total of THB 800,000.

It's a million-dollar question, and you can only go along with what your particular IO will accept as meeting the requirements using the combo method.

[paddypower]

49 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

The combination method. 

So vague and poorly written, it leaves itself open to different interpretations.

 

35/2561. Retirement 2.22, clause (5).

(5) Must have annual earnings and fund deposited with a commercial bank in Thailand totalling of no less than THB 800,000 until the filing date. The said funds must remain in the account prior to and after the permission is granted, and the alien can make a withdrawal under the same conditions as stated in (4).

 

So, what does clause (4) state in relation to the funds part.

(4) At least 2 months prior to filing date, and at least 3 months after being granted permission, the alien must have funds deposited in a bank in Thailand of no less than THB 800,000. The alien can then withdraw the funds 3 months after being granted permission, and the remaining balance must be no less than THB 400,000.

 

In (5) above, what exactly is meany by 'under the same conditions as (4).
Does that mean after 3 months you can withdraw half the funds you're using for the combination method if that happened to be THB 400,000 (?). OR, does it mean after 3 months you can withdraw half the funds, providing said funds being used comply with the requirement of 'and the remaining balance must be no less than THB 400,000'.

 

The senior IO at my IO has a clear understanding and interpretation that when using the combination method, the requirement of the funds part can only be met if maintaining a balance of no less than THB 400,000, the remainder proof of income.

Also, as a Canadian national, my IO would only accept proof of income from an Embassy income letter, purely because it's available.

 

Other IO's, I know, have a different interpretation and will accept THB 200,000 funds and the remainder as proof of income to meet the total of THB 800,000.

It's a million-dollar question, and you can only go along with what your particular IO will accept as meeting the requirements using the combo method.

Thank you for taking the time to go into such detail. I appreciate that - it grounds my thinking, which has been flying all over the place, due to what you correctly describe as badly drafted or imprecise regulations. Even if they were precise - the fact that any IO can interpret-ate  any way he/she wants kills any hope. I practiced tax law, including for off shore trusts. There, you could at least tax plan close to  the line between avoidance and evasion. but, TIT. The proposal to offer to maintain a 400k deposit for the next 12 months plus 775k of income is an excellent suggestion. I wlll try it out, nothing to lose. If he will not bite, then I will switch to using an agent who is capable of negotiating something better than the status quo.

[paddypower]

9 hours ago, paddypower said:

Thank you for taking the time to go into such detail. I appreciate that - it grounds my thinking, which has been flying all over the place, due to what you correctly describe as badly drafted or imprecise regulations. Even if they were precise - the fact that any IO can interpret-ate  any way he/she wants kills any hope. I practiced tax law, including for off shore trusts. There, you could at least tax plan close to  the line between avoidance and evasion. but, TIT. The proposal to offer to maintain a 400k deposit for the next 12 months plus 775k of income is an excellent suggestion. I wlll try it out, nothing to lose. If he will not bite, then I will switch to using an agent who is capable of negotiating something better than the status quo.

off topic, but an interesting subplot -  you can miss one of the 65k months transfers, due to banking problems (assuming that your annual total income transferred is 800k)  and get approval, if you're willing to made a substantial donation to the football team. In these delicate matters, it comes down to a comparison of the amount of the donation, versus the cost of visa agency fees. disclaimer: The nature of this post is intended to be of good intent, and in the best interests of the public good.

[paddypower]

Update - i have checked and there is a 90% chance that your suggestion will be accepted (if I bring an Thai friend with a bit of influence). again, many thanks!

[Liquorice]

On 1/9/2024 at 8:46 AM, paddypower said:

off topic, but an interesting subplot -  you can miss one of the 65k months transfers, due to banking problems (assuming that your annual total income transferred is 800k)  and get approval,

If using the combination method, 400 K THB in funds, then all you require is a Canadian Embassy letter stating you receive a monthly pension of circa 35K per month, totalling 420K per annum.

When using the Embassy income letter, they don't request proof of monthly transfers, only proof of the 400K funds in a Thai bank account.

[paddypower]

On 1/3/2024 at 11:34 PM, OJAS said:

 

Does this mean that you are a Canadian national and/or your pension income is sourced in Canada? If so you might be able to obtain an income letter each year from the Canadian Embassy in Bangkok (at a cost of 50 CAD currently) in lieu of making monthly 65k bank transfers:

 

https://www.international.gc.ca/country-pays/thailand-thailande/bangkok-info.aspx?lang=eng#NS

 

(see final line under Notarial services heading - might nevertheless be worthwhile checking with the Embassy that this letter is aimed at satisfying Immigration requirements for annual retirement extensions, though).

 

thinks are moving rapidly here. we're schedule for a visit to IO next week. I doubt that I can get a income letter in time. must check with another Canuck, who uses the income letter (which is based on rental income, something I was not aware you could count on).