House water pump/supply system questions

[NoDisplayName]

Hi, I'm a city boy.  We've always had fresh, clean water you could drink directly from the tap with plenty of pressure.

 

But now we're in a small town out side Korat.  We have two water sources:  city government and moo ban systems both connected at the property wall.  Feeds lawn outlets and a 1000-liter tank next to the house.  We have a Polo brand PS130 Auto water pump feeding into the single-story house.

 

 

https://wertome.en.made-in-china.com/product/RZUAJgFPaocT/China-PS130-Automatic-Booster-Vortex-Water-Pump.html

 

The pump was installed about 3 years ago just before we bought the house.  I assume they installed the cheapest they could find, possibly intended for agricultural use and not household.  It makes a loud ticking sound in operation, and recently has started having a thumping noise on the slower cycles at the end of the operating cycle.  I think the red canister at the top is some sort of pressure vessel?  About 1 liter.  When running, pressure is not constant, water stream spurts.

 

It may be time to upgrade the system, was looking at something like this Hitachi XX series.

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/hitachi-wmp-150-200-250-300-350-xx-series-10-i2939349763-s10785575259.html

This one does have a bladder pressure tank, not sure of volume, perhaps 2 liters.

 

They also have a version with a larger stainless pressure tank in the base, but I think this may be intended for use with a well, not for an external above-ground tank.

https://www.lazada.com.my/products/hitachi-japan-100w-tank-type-shallow-well-water-pump-wt-p100xs-wtp100xs-i205974774.html

 

What about a separate stainless bladder pressure tank (10-20 liters) installed between the pump and the house?  Would that remove or reduce the water pulsation?

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/diaphragm-pressure-tank-tara-vt-19-19-18-i2156028849.html

 

Could anyone advise on options for small household with 1000-liter holding tank fed from public supply?

 

 

[UWEB]

Look for a suitable Mitsubishi Pump, widely used in Thailand and easy to repair.

[NoDisplayName]

 

 

Edited January 6 by NoDisplayName

[Mike Lister]

Too many 90 degree joints, better to have two 45's to reduce friction loss. Also, be CERTAIN to paint the pipe with acrylic house paint or else  the sun will degrade the plastic, it will become brittle and break.

[Will B Good]

Mitsubishi defo'......and certainly worth considering a pressure tank.....I'm looking to buy one to prevent the pump having to continually stop/start for the small amounts of water we keep demanding.

[NoDisplayName]

This is what we started with.  Have cleaned up the area, and already painted the pipes.

 

Plan to replace all pipes when we install the new pump.  I think this is way too complicated, and can simplify the system.  Should just need 1/2" supply into the 1000-liter tank (can be relocated).  Then a thicker diameter (3"?) pipe from tank to pump with 2 45's, then reducers from the pump to 1/2" into the house with 2 45's as well. 

[NoDisplayName]

6 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

Mitsubishi defo'......and certainly worth considering a pressure tank.....I'm looking to buy one to prevent the pump having to continually stop/start for the small amounts of water we keep demanding.

 

This one looks promising.  Integrated larger stainless tank simplifies the pipework. 

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/mitsubishi-wp-85q5-80w-i1998744286.html

 

And this is an important selling point from the catalog!

The pump head is made of grass and not meat.

[Will B Good]

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

This one looks promising.  Integrated larger stainless tank simplifies the pipework. 

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/mitsubishi-wp-85q5-80w-i1998744286.html

 

And this is an important selling point from the catalog!

The pump head is made of grass and not meat.

Oh now that looks better still.....the tiny bladder tank just ensures you have water as the tap opens, but with the integrated tank instead.......could be good.

 

 

And this is an important selling point from the catalog!

The pump head is made of grass and not meat................and that is obviously essential....555

[proton]

2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

This one looks promising.  Integrated larger stainless tank simplifies the pipework. 

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/mitsubishi-wp-85q5-80w-i1998744286.html

 

And this is an important selling point from the catalog!

The pump head is made of grass and not meat.

 

Don't last forever, ours got rust holes in after 9 years, had them welded up but got more. New tank, then never worked properly, pulsing all the time, now the pressure dropped, does not come on for downstairs. Getting a new one on Monday. Tried all the usual remedies, bleeding the air out, tinkering with the pressure switch. 11 years is not bad but I expect some last longer. That one is not powerful enough if you have upstairs

Edited January 6 by proton

[NoDisplayName]

25 minutes ago, proton said:

 

Don't last forever, ours got rust holes in after 9 years, had them welded up but got more. New tank, then never worked properly, pulsing all the time, now the pressure dropped, does not come on for downstairs. Getting a new one on Monday. Tried all the usual remedies, bleeding the air out, tinkering with the pressure switch. 11 years is not bad but I expect some last longer. That one is not powerful enough if you have upstairs

 

Thanks for the comments.

 

Lazada has replacement tanks for about 1500 baht, however 9 years is plenty.  We'll probably sell and move some place quieter as the city encroaches before the tank rusts through.

 

It's just the two of us, single-story.  That particular model comes in a variety of flavors, ranging from 80 to 500 watts.  The 80-watt version closely matches what we have now, but I'd probably bump up to the 100-watt model for 30% more flow, if we go this route.

[Yellowtail]

The mitsu above is not a stainless tank. Mitsu installation diagram: 

[Yellowtail]

5 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Thanks for the comments.

 

Lazada has replacement tanks for about 1500 baht, however 9 years is plenty.  We'll probably sell and move some place quieter as the city encroaches before the tank rusts through.

 

It's just the two of us, single-story.  That particular model comes in a variety of flavors, ranging from 80 to 500 watts.  The 80-watt version closely matches what we have now, but I'd probably bump up to the 100-watt model for 30% more flow, if we go this route.

If you want good flow. I would go with at least a 250w

Edited January 6 by Yellowtail
clarity

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, Yellowtail said:

The mitsu above is not a stainless tank. Mitsu installation diagram: 

 

Ah.  You are correct.

 

"Pressure tank coated with special paint. Both internal and external non-toxic rustproof."

 

It's the 1600 baht replacement tank that comes in stainless.

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/mitsubishi-wp-85-105-155-pqq2q3qsq5-i4147718339-s16276271332.html

[poobear]

I have had both the square and round pumps installed next to the house. The constant pulse from the round tank drives me nuts so  I much prefer the constant250w  pressure square pump you have pictures and just make sure there are no leaks in the system. Good luck

[NoDisplayName]

4 hours ago, poobear said:

I have had both the square and round pumps installed next to the house. The constant pulse from the round tank drives me nuts so  I much prefer the constant250w  pressure square pump you have pictures and just make sure there are no leaks in the system. Good luck

 

You have the Hitachi or Mitsu models?

 

The round pump, the one with the larger pressure vessel, pulsates?

 

I thought the 10-liter (?) vessel under the round pump was there to maintain more constant pressure, where the smaller 1-liter vessel on the square pump would result in the water pump cycling on/off more often.

[proton]

14 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Ah.  You are correct.

 

"Pressure tank coated with special paint. Both internal and external non-toxic rustproof."

 

It's the 1600 baht replacement tank that comes in stainless.

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/mitsubishi-wp-85-105-155-pqq2q3qsq5-i4147718339-s16276271332.html

 

Bought one of those, pump has never worked properly since, not a mitsu product.  Usually you cannot fix the top on as these tanks dont have the fittings for the screws

[Yellowtail]

51 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

You have the Hitachi or Mitsu models?

 

The round pump, the one with the larger pressure vessel, pulsates?

 

I thought the 10-liter (?) vessel under the round pump was there to maintain more constant pressure, where the smaller 1-liter vessel on the square pump would result in the water pump cycling on/off more often.

The pressure is less constant on the pumps with the bladder tanks on the bottom, but they should stay on constantly while you are using the shower. It seems to me that the higher wattage pumps provide a more constant flow than the lower wattage pumps. 

 

The pressure is more constant on the rectangular pumps with the smaller accumulator, but they will cycle more frequently. If you have a drippy faucet or leaking toilet, they may cycle quite a lot. 

 

If the plumbing inside the house is good, I would go with one of the rectangular "constant" pressure models.

 

 

[Fruit Trader]

29 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

The pressure is less constant on the pumps with the bladder tanks on the bottom, but they should stay on constantly while you are using the shower. It seems to me that the higher wattage pumps provide a more constant flow than the lower wattage pumps. 

 

The pressure is more constant on the rectangular pumps with the smaller accumulator, but they will cycle more frequently. If you have a drippy faucet or leaking toilet, they may cycle quite a lot. 

 

If the plumbing inside the house is good, I would go with one of the rectangular "constant" pressure models.

 

 

 

Pumps with a tank on the bottom contain a maintained compressible air pocket directly in contact with the water not a bladder.

 

For simple switched house pumps (Mitsubishi/Hitachi) there are two methods of control, pressure switch alone or combination of pressure and flow switch. On the compact pumps with small pressure tank a flow switch is often employed to help provide constant pressure and avoid pressure switch cycling during low flow.

[CNX69]

so far 5years maintenance free  grundfos scala2

[The Theory]

I got a Hitachi 150W for a single story, one bathroom and inside/outside kitchen. 
constant pressure (I adjusted under sink valves for a bit lower flow).

[ross163103]

On 1/6/2024 at 5:30 PM, Will B Good said:

Mitsubishi defo'......and certainly worth considering a pressure tank.....I'm looking to buy one to prevent the pump having to continually stop/start for the small amounts of water we keep demanding.

Installed a pressure tank and has helped extend the life of my pump. One thing that contributes to pump failure is the starting/stopping. With a pressure tank the pump starts then runs longer--in order to fill up the tank, but has fewer starts/stops. Definitely a good addition to a system.

Edited January 11 by ross163103
Spelling

[Will B Good]

2 hours ago, ross163103 said:

Installed a pressure tank and has helped extend the life of my pump. One thing that contributes to pump failure is the starting/stopping. With a pressure tank the pump starts then runs longer--in order to fill up the tank, but has fewer starts/stops. Definitely a good addition to a system.

How much did you shell out for your tank?

[NoDisplayName]

6 hours ago, ross163103 said:

Installed a pressure tank and has helped extend the life of my pump. One thing that contributes to pump failure is the starting/stopping. With a pressure tank the pump starts then runs longer--in order to fill up the tank, but has fewer starts/stops. Definitely a good addition to a system.

 

Would you mind posting a photo of the system?

 

Smaller 60-100L tanks on Lazada:

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/pressure-tank-diaphragm-i4896120137-s20622357963.html

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/diaphragm-tara-wvt-100-pressure-tank-100l-i4675852837.html

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/tara-60-diaphragm-pressure-tank-60-i3481542219.html

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/pressure-tank-tara-cf-60-60-litre-diaphragm-i3967893683.html

Edited January 11 by NoDisplayName

[sometimewoodworker]

Just a FWIW any pressure tank is doing really well if it gives ⅓ of the rated volume of water. This is due to simple physics, but you need to multiply the required volume of pressured water need by 3 or 4 when buying 

[Yellowtail]

39 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Just a FWIW any pressure tank is doing really well if it gives ⅓ of the rated volume of water. This is due to simple physics, but you need to multiply the required volume of pressured water need by 3 or 4 when buying 

Don't the tanks just work as an accumulator? 

[ross163103]

21 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

Would you mind posting a photo of the system?

Here's some pics of the system. I built a manifold in order to have all options available; I can feed my pump directly from moo ban system, fill my underground tank, have pump suck from underground tank, or bypass pump and use pressure from moo ban system--which is not very much but usable in an emergency.

 

First pipe right side of mainfold: water in to system which can feed pump directly and/or fill my underground tank depending on what valves are opened/closed.

Second pipe moving to the left; a bypass around pump system in case pump fails.

Third pipe is fill for underground tank

Fourth pipe is suction from unerground tank to pump inlet

As you can see on the opposite side is the pump outlet feeding my system and teeing off to fill the pressure tank.

 

I used unions in case something goes wrong with valves or piping, I can easily remove the whole manifold without cutting/gluing pipes. I've never had an issue with the unions except when I was gone and my wife had to get the pump changed by a Thai water/pump guy. He couldn't understand the system or why I used unions; he wanted to cut everything out and glue in new pipes. I told my wife to just wait till I got back, no problem. The unions are rated for the pressure I have on the outlet side.

 

As far as the tank price, it was quite a few years ago but I want to say somewhere around 6k-7k baht. It's got a rubber bladder inside that holds pressurised air on one side and water on the other. Also the tank has a mount on top that fit my pump directly, no mods needed.

Any other questions feel free to ask.

 

[ross163103]

On 1/11/2024 at 6:12 PM, NoDisplayName said:

Smaller 60-100L tanks on Lazada:

Yes, I have a similar one, different brand to these but same idea. Any of those should work depending on how you want to plumb it in.

 

I bought mine at one of the local pump/tank shops.

 

https://www.globalwatersolutions.com/products/pressure-tanks/pump-applications/pressurewave/

 

 

[sometimewoodworker]

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Don't the tanks just work as an accumulator? 

It depends on the meaning of accumulator, if you are using it in the way Mitsubishi does (this is rather idiosyncratic) then yes it does, but it can supply water for a longer time than most water pumps pressure vessels without triggering the pump to turn on.

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, ross163103 said:

As far as the tank price, it was quite a few years ago but I want to say somewhere around 6k-7k baht. It's got a rubber bladder inside that holds pressurised air on one side and water on the other. Also the tank has a mount on top that fit my pump directly, no mods needed.

Any other questions feel free to ask.

 

That's a nice setup.  What pump do you have that mounts directly on the tank?

[ross163103]

17 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

That's a nice setup.  What pump do you have that mounts directly on the tank?

 

These pumps are variable flow and very quiet. First one I had lasted 10-15 years, the water I have is real alkaline so pretty sure that contributed to it's failure, plus I didn't have an accumulator tank with the first one so it started and stopped a lot more. I would definitely buy these again.