New Here, Help And Advice Needed Please

[Timothy]

Hi all

This is my first time here, I am new to the web and I could not be more pleased to see this forum for us all. I know this is not one of those dating places and I am glad to see it this way but just about myself in short. I am a city lawyer, good looking (according to most people), Thai but brought up in the UK and worked in the City of London before moving back home. I have always known what my sexuality is but this has never been told to anyone and of course not to my family. I am in my late twenties and due to my dark side i have (very unusually to all friends and family) been single.

I have always been attracted to the partners at the office, my colleagues or the clients but as a city solicitor you have to act professionally and nothing has happened and I belive most of them or all of them are straight anyway.

Are there professional gay expat people around here. ie lawyers, bankers, accountants or etc...? Where are they and how do they know or meet each other? Is there a community or a bar they go and hang out? I mean I am very straight acting and I am not comfortable being with those on the other side. I just want to know people of common background (not in a posh way or anything) so as to develop friendship.

Walking around the streets of BKK I have seen lots of caucasian men with Thai boys and I can tell that the boys are being paid for. Nothing like that would apply to me, I am well brought up, highly educated, well paid (more than Thais and most expats in Thailand) and I am honest and genuine. I just need to know some more people who are on the same boat, there are a large number of UK firms here so there must be these young professional gay around and they are in my situation as well.

Many thanks

Tim

[ProThaiExpat]

Your plight is common the world over, to those gays that try to remain in the closet for professional reasons.

That closet often means marriage and children as a sop to what is perceived by such closet cases as the demands of society.

I have been there and done that and what partners I did encounter where not anywhere of similar education or position as my contemporaries were all closeted as well.

It is the hope of all who have been in your situation, that openness will eventually be the norm in society and the closets limiting your choices will eventually no longer be necessary.

[PeaceBlondie]

The gay people who participate in this forum include professional accountants, military, policemen, lawyers, ajarns, etc. I was in the closet a long time, especially at work. Remember the character played by Tom Hanks in Philadelphia, a very successful trial attorney?

I don't know of a secret "Thai Gay Professionals Closeted Directory." Nor did I know of such back home.

[sbk]

Well, meeting people at work is usually not a good idea, regardless of your sexual orientation. If things don't work out then it could make work very uncomfortable.

Just curious, surely there are nightclubs that cater to gay people but aren't p4p? I realize that nightclubbing may not be your thing, but it is, at the very least, going to get you out and meeting like minded people?

[Rainwalker]

As a highly paid senior executive, I have, for the past 25 years answered the question "Are you married?" with the response "Gay men generally don't get married but (I'm in a relationship)(I'm single and if you know a suitable attractive man, I would be interested.)"

I am out to the lawyers, auditors and outside accountants as well as all internal and external folks that I interact with on a close basis;if I'm out for lunch with you and the topic moves to the personal, you'll know what's going on.

Folks - at least so it seems - could not care less about my preferences so long as I am competent and have "vision", whatever that means. I expect the same qualities from them.

I am currently a member of the board of directiors of several public companies, and the president of another, and the gay thing is a non-issue. I deal with high net worth individuals and while my heart is pink, I concentrate on the green (dollar), to all of our benefit.

Folks want to know that they can trust your judgement, the rest is irrelevant, at least in my case.

Just don't have sex in the office and all will be well...

IM me if you want and I'll reply as appropriate.

Edited July 22, 2007 by Rainwalker

[FranklyNoMore]

Young, is 29 young?, so called good looking single guy not dating girls = gay all around the world. Im sure your family think you are but you are just denying it. Sad to hear you say being gay is your dark side. Time you started being you and living your life for you instead of worrying what others think of you. Be brave young man. Open the closet door and run free........The hills are alive............

Good luck.

[Timothy]

Many thanks for all the responses. I am greatful and will try to move things forward but as you can imagine it is not easy. I have been dating girls for years but recently stopped as I have been under so much stressed with the hope that I am or will be straight. Enough is enough and now I am no longer trying to hope for nothing. The current difficulty is how to tell friends and colleagues without making it sound like I have lied to them all. There have been times I am asked if I am gay and I have always said no. I really don't know how to tell or explain this to uni friends, counsins and others. How can I start dating men or where to find them in particular those who act normally?

This may sound odd for a 29 year old but on this aspect I am now like 14 and it is as you can imagine more difficult than when I was trying to ask a girl out at that age. I asked a question about places where professional expat gay go but it seems that those do not really exist.

Thanks again

[flightcrew1]

Hmmmm interesting question. My circle of friends include Thai and Farang who are engineers, bankers, lawyers, police and other various professions. My bf is an engineer (Thai) who graduated with a masters from abroad so through him I got to meet a lot of professional young (25 - 40) Thai. There is no "specific" place that professional gay could go as the community is really not that large, unike places in San Francisco which have MAX (Men's Associated Exchange). We get together at Soi 4 for drinks and other places as well. We travel to the beach and around asia for long weekends and just generally have a good time. The gym, be it California or Fitness First is a great place to meet other professional gay both Thai and Farang. You can PM me if I can be of further help.

[PeaceBlondie]

Timothy, your last post sounds as if you're only now deciding you weren't straight to begin with. And, you have a long way to go on the coming out process. It can take forever, or you can start today, coming out. I took forever, and wish I'd done it more quickly. My parents both died of old age without knowing, or without asking me. I suppressed it through 20 years of marriage, and still wasn't out to my coworkers when I retired at 56!

Most people don't need to know you're gay. None of their business, mai bpen rai. But I've never seen a more tolerant place than Thailand. You might try coming out to the people you trust the most. Good luck. You can't meet gays for possible relationships if they don't even know you're available.

[wcr]

I picked up on that "dark side" quote too. Being gay is certainly not your dark side, and if that is how you view it you've got a bloody long way to go. I am a publisher based in Pattaya and president of one of the Rotary clubs here. My sexuality hasn't caused any problems with business. It is no one business, but if it crops up I tell them I have a bf. As long as I do my job and look after my customers they don't give a ######.

Also you mention that you have noticed white guys with Thai's and you say that it is obvious to you they are being paid for. What gives you the right to make judgments like that, and if they are being paid for so what? I guess if you saw me with my bf you would draw the same conclusion. But you would be wrong.

You need to put your prejudices and snobbery behind you and get out. Not everyone you meet will be your cup of tea, but you may meet people that you would not usually come across and build a good strong friendship with them and that in turn will open up more opportunities to meet someone.

[Timothy]

Hi

I've read your reply below, thanks. Apologies for being a jugemental and I should not have said that, I know it is not right. I am sorry, I am as a matter of fact jealous of those boys who cant speak much English but can find their partners much easier and much freeer than me.

Why do I call it darkside is that it is still in dark and I wished I could bring this aspect of my life out to the sun, out to the world, out to friends, family, colleagues and community. We live in a world full of prejudices and being a top guy amongst my male straight friends who I coached them on various things I know I would just become "that gay" as opposed to bright, young, lovely, sporty, smart young man. Again I am not here trying to list my qualifications but just to give you the idea why it is difficult, I cant count the numbers of times people around me make jokes about gay things and I have to just be quiet.

Thank you for advive anyway

I picked up on that "dark side" quote too. Being gay is certainly not your dark side, and if that is how you view it you've got a bloody long way to go. I am a publisher based in Pattaya and president of one of the Rotary clubs here. My sexuality hasn't caused any problems with business. It is no one business, but if it crops up I tell them I have a bf. As long as I do my job and look after my customers they don't give a ######.

Also you mention that you have noticed white guys with Thai's and you say that it is obvious to you they are being paid for. What gives you the right to make judgments like that, and if they are being paid for so what? I guess if you saw me with my bf you would draw the same conclusion. But you would be wrong.

You need to put your prejudices and snobbery behind you and get out. Not everyone you meet will be your cup of tea, but you may meet people that you would not usually come across and build a good strong friendship with them and that in turn will open up more opportunities to meet someone.

[PeaceBlondie]

Timothy, do as much research as you can; you're a bright fellow. Even this forum will give you some wisdom or information among all the chaff. As you discover other gay men in Thailand who want to talk about it (whether or not they also have sex with you), you'll learn how to express yourself on this important aspect of life.

[ProThaiExpat]

I have always thought I was in the closet longer than any other man alive, but with age, comes the wisdom that I am not unique and that there is undoubtedly many others with more closet time, with or without squinshed up clothes.

Most of my fellow professionals figured it out without my having to tell them. The first sign is when they stop telling derogatory "fag" jokes. Many commented later that they were sorry that I chose to remain so guarded, taking offense that I didn't trust them with something so basic and personal.

My own personal experience, however, has led me to believe that if someone gets to know you first and then learns your gay, it is no big deal. It is when your referred to as "that gay" before they get to know you that the prejudice kicks in and eventual friendship becomes more difficult, as a wall of prejudice almost always is erected, even by those who profess not to have anything "against gays".

Most professionals who have clients, choose not to bring the subject up as there is always the chance that you might not get a client referral or lose an existing client due to prejudice. My definition of professionalism includes the dictum that you "leave your personal life at home". That applies to all in any business organization from the bottom to the top.

[Rainwalker]

Leave your personal life at home??

When they stop talking about their kids, when they stop having pictures of their family on the credenza, when they stop wearing wedding rings is when I'll stop subtly announcing that I'm a cocksucker!

Sorry but it is a big world with lots of magnificent people who like/love/respect me for all that I am (or at least they like some of me) and, if some one has issues; it is they that have the issues and not me.

I saw a T-shirt in New York last year that sums it up: "Don't give me any of your attitude because I have enough of my own."

Timothy, I'm really alright with me and that is the first big hurdle that you want to jump.

Follow this logic...

This is how we can secure what exultant happiness we have and change the world for the better…

Forget the fundamentalists. I don't mean literally forget them; that will be impossible to do, what with the shouting and the frothing and the calling down of hellfire and brimstone upon everyone's heads. What I mean is that you cannot waste good time and effort trying to bring them around to your point of view. You can argue the issues up one side and down the other and it will not make a bit of difference to them, because from a fundamentalist's point of view, their opinion is always right, and always trumps science, nature, community standards, compassion, tolerance, civil rights, and common sense. There is no way to win an argument with a fundamentalist and there is no point in trying.

Remember Mencken once said, "Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The more uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely what is right and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has been the work of men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who have whooped them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is always skeptical and tolerant, in this field as in all others. His culture is based on 'I am not too sure.' "

Dignity is sweet, and appeasement gets beat. There is nothing more humiliating or self-destructive than sacrificing your own freedom, identity, and emotional health in a futile quest for the approval of people who will not only never give it to you, but will ruthlessly exploit your desire for acceptance. If you make decisions based on what will gain the approval of people who abhor everything you stand for, all that happens is that you end up living all the misery they have wished on you.

The way we fight the battle will have an enormous impact on the spectators watching from the safety of the trees. If we don't act like we believe in ourselves, nobody else is going to believe in us either. So please, guys, either show up ready to fight, or don't show up at all. Commitment is always going to beat cowardice.

If we want to win on this, we have to be as passionate and powerful in our defense of our position as the Free Republic weirdoes are in theirs. We have to get as fired up about equality and justice as they are about hellfire and damnation. It can be done. And indeed, it must.

Nobody wants their friends to get hurt. And in the end, this is the thing that makes these issues our wedge, and their nightmare. The 1950s are coming back in almost every area of our culture and Thailand's as well More of us are living honest and open lives than ever before, and that means that there are more people in this country than ever before who know that they have gay or liberal or feminist or just plain odd and gentle friends, family, colleagues, children, neighbors, and classmates trying to make sense of a world that is always changing. Popular culture is finally catching up, largely because they have discovered that they can make money off us - and that means that the majority is now used to identifying and sympathizing with our kind of people, whether it's Will and Grace, the liberal characters on Thai variety shows or the goings on at Hogwarts and in Mordor. And the more hysterical the right gets about the “evil” we represent, the more regular folk they are going to alarm and anger. And once those people realize that this is not about us attacking morality, but about the extreme right attack against people average folks care about, it's going to be working for us and not the right-wingers.

But, that will not happen unless we remember...

Don't throw people to the wolves. It won't slow them down that much. You can't protect yourself from hatred and prejudice by offering one of your own as a scapegoat. To argue that you deserve to be treated well because you are just like straight people and not at all like that guy with the feather boa or that you are more valuable because your skin is whiter than some guy from Isaan or that you deserve more than that guy who moved here from Ubon years after you did because your accent is more "central" is to give away the argument before you even get started. Because let's face it, either society is going to value tolerance and respect difference, or it's not, and taking refuge in protective coloring may allow you personally to ride out the storm, but it is not going to advance the cause.

Failure is not an option. With the crowd currently high in the power structure, there is no such thing as a conditional surrender. If you give them an inch, they just keep on taking; and even if you don't give them an inch, even if you stand there and say, "Hey, that's my inch, let go," they'll take it anyway. If you don't press forward, you will be beaten back.

Rant over; back to cooler heads.

Edited July 23, 2007 by Rainwalker

[Tyke]

Timothy,

I've just a couple of points too add for what it's worth. I am 58 years old, professional, and never 'came out' to family, colleagues and straight friends and was VERY late even getting started (31). All that holding out and secrecy was not worth it in the end as I am sure they all guessed anyway, and some colleagues gave me a rough time without having the courage or decency to say why. But at the end of the day, your sexuality is so personal that it is entirely your business to choose what you want to reveal about it to anyone, including even your family. It is none of their business and if you want to continue concealing or lying about it, then that is entirely fine by me. But concealing what might inevitably be the inconcealable often has its emotional/mental consequences that are not always pleasant.

Regarding finding like-minded people, well in my youth there was almost no chance to meet other gays - no internet or gay scene that I knew of - I never even knew a gay person of my own age. Nowadays there are inumerable opportunities to meet other gays. I found my Thai long-term boyfriend (5 years so far) on the internet - on gay.com, but I think I was lucky there. You might try answering personal adds. It might not sound a great way to find someone, but believe me, you never know when the right one is coming along until he arrives - it could be a gay bar, disco, internet, on the street, at work. You never know until it happens - and you will meet a load of dross on the way so be prepared to be let down a great deal - just keep looking in different places - and never lose hope, as I nearly did!

[PeaceBlondie]

The Gay Forum Post of the Month on ThaiVisa goes to Rainwalker. Who ever said that a low post count always denotes a no-nothing who couldn't express himself?

[ProThaiExpat]

I second the motion of PeaceBlondie in his nomination for the post of the month.

Being one generation older than Rainwalker, I can appreciate the progress rainwalker's point of view has contributed to societies more accepting attitude toward gays, at least in civilized countries.

There are not many former "closet cases" that don't regret coming out sooner but we all have our own limitations. I was raised to be a "good little boy" and that hindered my liberation for decades. It is the courageous gays who have moved society to a more tolerant attitude and I applaud them and Rainwalker certainly is one.

If Timothy can somehow find the courage to follow Rainmwalker's advice he will be well served by it. However, if he cannot, because of the way he was raised, he will have to find a middle ground that works for him. I found I had a great deal more courage regarding my "closet" as I rose in rank, income, prestige and importance than I did when I was near the bottom without the power I had in later life. I do remember respecting mildly belligerent people who stood op for their rights, when I was in a supervisory position over them and I think that is what Rainwalker is talking about. Stand up for your rights at any age and you will be respected for it, maybe not liked, but the people who don't like you for it, aren't worth your time.

[Tyke]

The Gay Forum Post of the Month on ThaiVisa goes to Rainwalker. Who ever said that a low post count always denotes a no-nothing who couldn't express himself?

How is this decided? Or decided for us? What are the general criteria and on what basis was this particular message selected?

[guyfromeurope]

Timothy,

I was somewhat nostalgic while reading your post. Although some years older now (35) I've been through the same hard fight to find my way and to announce it to my family and some close friends. Eventually I did it in tha age of 28 and they have quite well accepted. They are not happy about it (strong Catholic background) and I know they are worry about my life (no children, instability of gay relationships, etc)

I am in a similar social standing (professional lawyer working in a prestigious international bank) and I think I faced the same issus than you. I'm still remembering the fear when the firts time I went to a night club and the first person I've bumped into, was one of my students, a superbe cute guy (at that time I was also lecturer at the University).

You are right that a certain professional standing makes more difficult to find an appropriate partner but dont give up. Your colleegues will know about it anyway, sooner or later. If you have a good standing based on your professional and human quality, your brightness and your good manners, not only they will accept you but you can even help other hiding gay people by tearing down the walls of prejudices.

Chok dee!

Hi

I've read your reply below, thanks. Apologies for being a jugemental and I should not have said that, I know it is not right. I am sorry, I am as a matter of fact jealous of those boys who cant speak much English but can find their partners much easier and much freeer than me.

Why do I call it darkside is that it is still in dark and I wished I could bring this aspect of my life out to the sun, out to the world, out to friends, family, colleagues and community. We live in a world full of prejudices and being a top guy amongst my male straight friends who I coached them on various things I know I would just become "that gay" as opposed to bright, young, lovely, sporty, smart young man. Again I am not here trying to list my qualifications but just to give you the idea why it is difficult, I cant count the numbers of times people around me make jokes about gay things and I have to just be quiet.

Thank you for advive anyway

I picked up on that "dark side" quote too. Being gay is certainly not your dark side, and if that is how you view it you've got a bloody long way to go. I am a publisher based in Pattaya and president of one of the Rotary clubs here. My sexuality hasn't caused any problems with business. It is no one business, but if it crops up I tell them I have a bf. As long as I do my job and look after my customers they don't give a ######.

Also you mention that you have noticed white guys with Thai's and you say that it is obvious to you they are being paid for. What gives you the right to make judgments like that, and if they are being paid for so what? I guess if you saw me with my bf you would draw the same conclusion. But you would be wrong.

You need to put your prejudices and snobbery behind you and get out. Not everyone you meet will be your cup of tea, but you may meet people that you would not usually come across and build a good strong friendship with them and that in turn will open up more opportunities to meet someone.

[PeaceBlondie]

The Gay Forum Post of the Month on ThaiVisa goes to Rainwalker. Who ever said that a low post count always denotes a no-nothing who couldn't express himself?

How is this decided? Or decided for us? What are the general criteria and on what basis was this particular message selected?

Tyke, it was really more of a joke and I forgot to look for an emoticon with tongue in cheek...still cannot find one. I never gave such an 'award' before and probably never will again. I just thought it called for a definite thumbs-up

[peteinCM]

The Gay Forum Post of the Month on ThaiVisa goes to Rainwalker. Who ever said that a low post count always denotes a no-nothing who couldn't express himself?

Rainwalker is a well-known and very well-respected member of the four existing gay-specific message boards about Thailand that exist outside Thai Visa. He has years of posting experience about issues relating to gay Thailand, just not on Thai Visa. I am sure there are many members of this forum (gay or otherwise) who may not post much at Thai Visa but who are prolific posters elsewhere. You shouldn't measure a poster's knowledge or ability to express himself based solely on something as arbitrary as post count, although I do know that PB was being tongue-in-cheek.

I do agree with RW's post in its entirety, and I have choosen to live my professional life totally outside the closet. Oddly enough, my current supervisor is going through some rough times in his professional life because of his desire to selectively out himself to coworkers but keep his sexuality hidden from the bosses.

As for the OP, have you tried some of the Thai language websites and web boards such a thaiboy.net or or siam boy or gthai.net? You might find some professional Thais on there who can give you a more Thai perspective and know more about meeting places in BKK. Fridae also has a very active posting section with professionals from all over Asia. If you are looking for farang gay friends you might try gay.com or gaydar or some of the more farang-oriented meeting places in BKK such as @richards, DJ station, dick's, sphinx, bed supperclub, ect where there are few actual moneyboys (except at DJS). As for professional clubs, the closest would be the Long Yang Club which is a club for farangs-Asians to socialize. There is a BKK chapter and you can find them on the web.

BKK has more gay venues and outlets for gay men than almost any other city in the world. Just get out there and enjoy your life outside of work and let things progress from there.

Edited July 25, 2007 by peteinCM

[Tyke]

Leave your personal life at home??

When they stop talking about their kids, when they stop having pictures of their family on the credenza, when they stop wearing wedding rings is when I'll stop subtly announcing that I'm a cocksucker!

Sorry but it is a big world with lots of magnificent people who like/love/respect me for all that I am (or at least they like some of me) and, if some one has issues; it is they that have the issues and not me.

I saw a T-shirt in New York last year that sums it up: "Don't give me any of your attitude because I have enough of my own."

Timothy, I'm really alright with me and that is the first big hurdle that you want to jump.

Follow this logic...

This is how we can secure what exultant happiness we have and change the world for the better…

Forget the fundamentalists. I don't mean literally forget them; that will be impossible to do, what with the shouting and the frothing and the calling down of hellfire and brimstone upon everyone's heads. What I mean is that you cannot waste good time and effort trying to bring them around to your point of view. You can argue the issues up one side and down the other and it will not make a bit of difference to them, because from a fundamentalist's point of view, their opinion is always right, and always trumps science, nature, community standards, compassion, tolerance, civil rights, and common sense. There is no way to win an argument with a fundamentalist and there is no point in trying.

Remember Mencken once said, "Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The more uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely what is right and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has been the work of men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who have whooped them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is always skeptical and tolerant, in this field as in all others. His culture is based on 'I am not too sure.' "

Dignity is sweet, and appeasement gets beat. There is nothing more humiliating or self-destructive than sacrificing your own freedom, identity, and emotional health in a futile quest for the approval of people who will not only never give it to you, but will ruthlessly exploit your desire for acceptance. If you make decisions based on what will gain the approval of people who abhor everything you stand for, all that happens is that you end up living all the misery they have wished on you.

The way we fight the battle will have an enormous impact on the spectators watching from the safety of the trees. If we don't act like we believe in ourselves, nobody else is going to believe in us either. So please, guys, either show up ready to fight, or don't show up at all. Commitment is always going to beat cowardice.

If we want to win on this, we have to be as passionate and powerful in our defense of our position as the Free Republic weirdoes are in theirs. We have to get as fired up about equality and justice as they are about hellfire and damnation. It can be done. And indeed, it must.

Nobody wants their friends to get hurt. And in the end, this is the thing that makes these issues our wedge, and their nightmare. The 1950s are coming back in almost every area of our culture and Thailand's as well More of us are living honest and open lives than ever before, and that means that there are more people in this country than ever before who know that they have gay or liberal or feminist or just plain odd and gentle friends, family, colleagues, children, neighbors, and classmates trying to make sense of a world that is always changing. Popular culture is finally catching up, largely because they have discovered that they can make money off us - and that means that the majority is now used to identifying and sympathizing with our kind of people, whether it's Will and Grace, the liberal characters on Thai variety shows or the goings on at Hogwarts and in Mordor. And the more hysterical the right gets about the “evil” we represent, the more regular folk they are going to alarm and anger. And once those people realize that this is not about us attacking morality, but about the extreme right attack against people average folks care about, it's going to be working for us and not the right-wingers.

But, that will not happen unless we remember...

Don't throw people to the wolves. It won't slow them down that much. You can't protect yourself from hatred and prejudice by offering one of your own as a scapegoat. To argue that you deserve to be treated well because you are just like straight people and not at all like that guy with the feather boa or that you are more valuable because your skin is whiter than some guy from Isaan or that you deserve more than that guy who moved here from Ubon years after you did because your accent is more "central" is to give away the argument before you even get started. Because let's face it, either society is going to value tolerance and respect difference, or it's not, and taking refuge in protective coloring may allow you personally to ride out the storm, but it is not going to advance the cause.

Failure is not an option. With the crowd currently high in the power structure, there is no such thing as a conditional surrender. If you give them an inch, they just keep on taking; and even if you don't give them an inch, even if you stand there and say, "Hey, that's my inch, let go," they'll take it anyway. If you don't press forward, you will be beaten back.

Rant over; back to cooler heads.

Rainwalker,

I get your gist but your message does sound a bit fundamentalist, with lots of froth and brimstone, talk of fighting battles and scent of moral certainty. Unfortunately, if you substitute just a few of your words for the words that anti-gay people use then we have the same argument.

[FranklyNoMore]

The Gay Forum Post of the Month on ThaiVisa goes to Rainwalker. Who ever said that a low post count always denotes a no-nothing who couldn\'t express himself?

I just love the cut and paste function

Edited July 25, 2007 by FranklyNoMore

[PeaceBlondie]

As Elvis used to say, "Thank you, thank you very much." Or so my grandmother tells me.

I didn't think Rainwalker's post sounded like the fundamentalists. That is an effective approach, in my not so humble opinion, against overly opinionated bigots: to tell them, "You're ignorant, I'm gay, you're wrong, and I'm right!"

[Rainwalker]

Tyke, this is from Sly and the Family Stone's album "Stand" which was released in 1969...

Stand

In the end you'll still be you

One that's done all the things you set out to do

Stand

There's a cross for you to bear

Things to go through if you're going anywhere

Stand

For the things you know are right

It s the truth that the truth makes them so uptight

Stand

All the things you want are real

You have you to complete and there is no deal

Stand. stand, stand

Stand. stand, stand

Stand

You've been sitting much too long

There's a permanent crease in your right and wrong

Stand

There's a midget standing tall

And the giant beside him about to fall

Stand. stand, stand

Stand. stand, stand

Stand

They will try to make you crawl

And they know what you're saying makes sense and all

Stand

Don't you know that you are free

Well at least in your mind if you want to be

[Tyke]

Tyke, this is from Sly and the Family Stone's album "Stand" which was released in 1969...

Stand

In the end you'll still be you

One that's done all the things you set out to do

Stand

There's a cross for you to bear

Things to go through if you're going anywhere

Stand

For the things you know are right

It s the truth that the truth makes them so uptight

Stand

All the things you want are real

You have you to complete and there is no deal

Stand. stand, stand

Stand. stand, stand

Stand

You've been sitting much too long

There's a permanent crease in your right and wrong

Stand

There's a midget standing tall

And the giant beside him about to fall

Stand. stand, stand

Stand. stand, stand

Stand

They will try to make you crawl

And they know what you're saying makes sense and all

Stand

Don't you know that you are free

Well at least in your mind if you want to be

Rainwalker,

I am not against people standing up for their rights – I’ve always done that and admired other people who do the same. I was just wondering how appropriate your message was in this thread (and hence why it was, jokingly it now seems, deemed the message of the month. Firstly, your original rant (your own word!) was in response to a Thai gay who seems on the verge of taking his first tentative steps to exploring his sexuality. He’s hardly likely to be ready to fight, fight, fight etc against fundamentalists etc is he? Secondly, I assume you are North American or European (maybe even Antipodean, but never mind). Well, your proposal is fine for western countries, but I am not sure our Thai poster friend would find that appropriate behaviour for Thailand (even though I sometimes wish Thais would stand up more for their rights). Regarding ‘fundamentalists, well, instead of ‘gay’ you might substitute the word Christian, Muslim or whatever, (eg. In the post "You're ignorant, I'm gay, you're wrong, and I'm right!", or most parts of your posting) and find that the ‘fundamentalists’ use exactly the same argument. It all just sounds a bit over the top for a response to the original polite request for a bit of friendly help. I must say though, with 20 'stand' words in that song above, the lyrics are really inspiring, and the bit about "there's a cross for you to bear" says a lot.

[PeaceBlondie]

Tyke, maybe you're confusing the posts here. My award of "Post of the Month" was light hearted, but sincere. And it was I who coined the term here in post #24, "You're ignorant, I'm gay, you're wrong, and I'm right!" But I agree that a bold, confrontational public stance like that doesn't work well in Thailand when you're having a hissy fit with a Thai of some reputation. We are trying to help a closeted and Westernized Thai gay man to come out of the closet, to be unashamed of his desires for men, to stop thinking about homosexuality as a dirty, evil thing, etc. Lyrics like those quoted, or from "I will survive" or Helen Reddy's lyrics about 'you and me against the world,' help closeted people to have an internal dialog and conclude "I'm all right. I'm not sick or evil." As you should know, the process of coming out (first to yourself) is a painful process that precedes the public announcements.

However, I'm a bit confused myself, between this topic for Timothy and the other topic for bruceboy.

[noctiluca]

Hi Timothy,

I really feel for you. I wish you the best anyway. You have more courage than you may think.

Many have already voiced their helpful and insightful contributions to you, and I don't have much more to add, except for the moral support.

Why not try one of those networking groups that are currently mushrooming around Bangkok, well at least in the international/professional circles, like MobyElite's Bangkok Young Professionals or MeetNLunch (no, I don't get pay for the advertisement! ) You never know you might find your soul mate there.

I know this may sound cliche, but you are in a much better position and have a greater opportunity than many local Thais in general, considering what you told us about yourself. I'm sure whoever has you will be very lucky.

Anyway, hopefully you will keep us updated on your progress here. Would love to hear more about your "achievement".

[Tyke]

Peaceblondie,

I don't really want to labour this point but feel I need to try again to clarify what I am trying to get at, with apologies to Timothy and all other readers of this thread.

Tyke, maybe you're confusing the posts here. My award of "Post of the Month" was light hearted,

I already covered that in my last message, but it wasn't clear at first.

We are trying to help a closeted and Westernized Thai gay man to come out of the closet, to be unashamed of his desires for men, to stop thinking about homosexuality as a dirty, evil thing, etc.

I know exactly what we should be doing and it is not propagating a philosophy of war between 'us' and 'them' in this case. Have you read the posting? How can statements like "So please, guys, either show up ready to fight, or don't show up at all. Commitment is always going to beat cowardice.", among many others, possibly be helpful to anyone in Timothy's position - it is saying either you start fighting for your rights, laddy, or you are a coward. Quite a nice introduction to gay life right?

Lyrics like those quoted, or from "I will survive" or Helen Reddy's lyrics about 'you and me against the world,' help closeted people to have an internal dialog and conclude "I'm all right. I'm not sick or evil." As you should know, the process of coming out (first to yourself) is a painful process that precedes the public announcements.

mmmmmmm

However, I'm a bit confused myself, between this topic for Timothy and the other topic for bruceboy.

I don't understand what Bruceboy's thread has to do with this.

[Scott]

Best of luck to you. One of the things you need, is a support system of friends who are there for you. This is a good place to start. Try to find one or two people you can talk to and socialize with and then get out and start going a few places.

You'll quickly meet others and be on your way.