Thailand's Oldest Party Announces New Policy Platform

[ColPyat]

I still miss any specifics. How are the Democrats thinking of reaching their goals? Any specific policies, programs?

These are the same lame empty promises we have heard since years, and the reason people voted for TRT in the first place.

I don't see any protest against dismantling even the positive steps TRT has introduced, such as the beginning of an universal healthcare scheme in Thailand. Again, people here are dying because they cannot afford essential life saving medicine. What about the talk about raising farmer's income, but no protest against the scrapping of rice subsidies by the present military government.

What has changed with the Democrats other than fronting new nice faces?

Hi Colpyat

My personal feeling is that the coup caught the Dems half reformed and hence potentially split between old and new. Now they need to put out a policy platform and chalenge for power before they expected that leaves them stuck to general policies all can agree on rather than a platform of newer ideas that may have been possible a few years down the line. They have gained both pros (a chance at power earlier than expected) and cons (no chance to complete the restructuring and modernisation) from the coup.

Having said all that they are probably better than the old godfather parties like Chart Thai, and the political opportunist parties like Matchima as they may try to be nice although I seriously doubt they will be able to do much. Another thought is that the nature of coalition politics makes it hard to make specific policy promises as inevitably to form the coalition deals have to be done beween several parties who may not like a specific pomise you have made. This encourages generalizations. The TRT project was not designed for coalition government but for overall control. Now with the new charter coalition government will be a reality for some time. Quite messy really. Time will tell.

On the universal health care package there will be problems. It has been introduced. It is now in a financial mess. People expect it but someone has to pay. TRT got away with some short term viable schemes that had long term flaws in them. Politically this has been great for the TRT, however whoever has to reform this and make it financially viable while still free faces a horrible task. Where will the money come from? Would anyone just let it wither and die? Certainly the current government have left this to whoeevr comes next. Maybe winning the next election may not be the best thing.

After the statement of the first post coup finance minister on the economical condition i don't believe anymore that the TRT policies have "wrecked" the economy. That statement said that the economy is basically stable (now it isn't anymore, due to both outside influences and blunders of the present government).

The 30 baht scheme definitely needed improvement, but that meant better funding, and more directed. Not just scrapping it so that the poor have a much worse coverage.

And, the amounts the military budget has been increased could have easily covered a continuation of all these pro people policies that were scrapped.

I wonder anyhow where the military budget goes. If you have the chance to stay with any combat unit, you will see that they are as miserably underfunded as ever, not even having the bare essentials at times, essentials such as Morphine for the injured.

The Democrats may be a bit better than the old godfather parties, but they will be forced to get into coalition with them, again, and nothing will happen. The only thing that is going to happen is that the real power is right back with the military and the bureaucracy. They have never done much for the people, and given the scrapping of pro people policies by the present government, i don't see any indication that they have changed in any way.

The poor have lost out, again.

[Plus]

The present bkk gov. signed the contracts on the deal. He is not being indicted due to farcical excuses like he was under pressure or he just signed it because it was already in motion by the last bkk gov. This man signed off on the contracts and as not been charged. And yet they only charge the last bkk gov.

A letter of credit on a previous contract is still signing off a contract for the purchase of those services. He wasnt the first guy to put his signature to the deal but he was the last

he has still to be charged and may never be charged, just another day in thai politics

Samak, the prevous governor, signed the contract on his last day in office. Contract is a legal document and so the next governor, Apirak, HAD TO open a letter of credit or face legal action for not honoring the contract. That was the legal advice.

He was also TOLD TO open a letter of credit by TRT Transport Minister at that time, Pracha Maleenont.

Apirak inherited this hot potato and whether he made mistakes in handling it or not is up to AEC and the courts to decide. It's beyond any reason to suggest that he planned to pocket the money since all the planning stage - contract terms and price, were agreed before Apirak even decided run for the post.

[Old Man River]

Do you work for the democratic party press junkit?

Or do you just believe everything you read by politicians whose only concern is how to allign their own cash reserves in one of the most corrupt 3rd world countries on the planet

Or are you so naive that you think you are the only one you knows what is best for Thailand?

[Hampstead]

The present bkk gov. signed the contracts on the deal. He is not being indicted due to farcical excuses like he was under pressure or he just signed it because it was already in motion by the last bkk gov. This man signed off on the contracts and as not been charged. And yet they only charge the last bkk gov.

A letter of credit on a previous contract is still signing off a contract for the purchase of those services. He wasnt the first guy to put his signature to the deal but he was the last

he has still to be charged and may never be charged, just another day in thai politics

Samak, the prevous governor, signed the contract on his last day in office. Contract is a legal document and so the next governor, Apirak, HAD TO open a letter of credit or face legal action for not honoring the contract. That was the legal advice.

He was also TOLD TO open a letter of credit by TRT Transport Minister at that time, Pracha Maleenont.

Apirak inherited this hot potato and whether he made mistakes in handling it or not is up to AEC and the courts to decide. It's beyond any reason to suggest that he planned to pocket the money since all the planning stage - contract terms and price, were agreed before Apirak even decided run for the post.

Exactly, apirak was the last signature on this deal not the last bkk gov whose signature was the first.

all you have proven is that the excuses to protect one of the democrat pin up boys has been in overdrive as not to tarnish his cleaner than thou image in the eyes of the democrat voters

Apirak signed the letter of credit which allows the agreement to continue and therefore to be finalised by the bma

all other reasons relating to corruption and how its handled in thailand, well thats for those to make their own minds up in how they live in this country and for what they can see all around in their daily life

Your posts in my mind give too much of a sense of fairness and and a legal system which allows the guilty to be innocent untill proven guilty and is too liberal thinking when you should have switched off your 1st world legal and fair systems when you first landed in thailand and switched it into the mode of thailand land of corruption at its core in all systems legal and politics without any fairness

And you put so much faith in thailands legal system to judge fairly without prejudice in any case, so as to feel that any judgement by the asc is the correct one, leaves me thinking how on earth do you survive in this country

[Old Man River]

The present bkk gov. signed the contracts on the deal. He is not being indicted due to farcical excuses like he was under pressure or he just signed it because it was already in motion by the last bkk gov. This man signed off on the contracts and as not been charged. And yet they only charge the last bkk gov.

A letter of credit on a previous contract is still signing off a contract for the purchase of those services. He wasnt the first guy to put his signature to the deal but he was the last

he has still to be charged and may never be charged, just another day in thai politics

Samak, the prevous governor, signed the contract on his last day in office. Contract is a legal document and so the next governor, Apirak, HAD TO open a letter of credit or face legal action for not honoring the contract. That was the legal advice.

He was also TOLD TO open a letter of credit by TRT Transport Minister at that time, Pracha Maleenont.

Apirak inherited this hot potato and whether he made mistakes in handling it or not is up to AEC and the courts to decide. It's beyond any reason to suggest that he planned to pocket the money since all the planning stage - contract terms and price, were agreed before Apirak even decided run for the post.

Exactly, apirak was the last signature on this deal not the last bkk gov whose signature was the first.

all you have proven is that the excuses to protect one of the democrat pin up boys has been in overdrive as not to tarnish his cleaner than thou image in the eyes of the democrat voters

Apirak signed the letter of credit which allows the agreement to continue and therefore to be finalised by the bma

all other reasons relating to corruption and how its handled in thailand, well thats for those to make their own minds up in how they live in this country and for what they can see all around in their daily life

Your posts in my mind give too much of a sense of fairness and and a legal system which allows the guilty to be innocent untill proven guilty and is too liberal thinking when you should have switched off your 1st world legal and fair systems when you first landed in thailand and switched it into the mode of thailand land of corruption at its core in all systems legal and politics without any fairness

And you put so much faith in thailands legal system to judge fairly without prejudice in any case, so as to feel that any judgement by the asc is the correct one, leaves me thinking how on earth do you survive in this country

If you feel this way, why do you live here? Maybe you don't, but then why are you even interested in Thailand since you have such a dim view of it.

[Hampstead]

Do you work for the democratic party press junkit?

Or do you just believe everything you read by politicians whose only concern is how to allign their own cash reserves in one of the most corrupt 3rd world countries on the planet

Or are you so naive that you think you are the only one you knows what is best for Thailand?

Your previous statement on the democrats was a loose attempt to tell forum members on what you think is best for thailand.

You certainly have a tendency to believe what you read in the thai press by politcal parties vying for votes

If you think that i am wrong on the corruption in thailand then please tell me, that is what i replied to your post

[Hampstead]

The present bkk gov. signed the contracts on the deal. He is not being indicted due to farcical excuses like he was under pressure or he just signed it because it was already in motion by the last bkk gov. This man signed off on the contracts and as not been charged. And yet they only charge the last bkk gov.

A letter of credit on a previous contract is still signing off a contract for the purchase of those services. He wasnt the first guy to put his signature to the deal but he was the last

he has still to be charged and may never be charged, just another day in thai politics

Samak, the prevous governor, signed the contract on his last day in office. Contract is a legal document and so the next governor, Apirak, HAD TO open a letter of credit or face legal action for not honoring the contract. That was the legal advice.

He was also TOLD TO open a letter of credit by TRT Transport Minister at that time, Pracha Maleenont.

Apirak inherited this hot potato and whether he made mistakes in handling it or not is up to AEC and the courts to decide. It's beyond any reason to suggest that he planned to pocket the money since all the planning stage - contract terms and price, were agreed before Apirak even decided run for the post.

Exactly, apirak was the last signature on this deal not the last bkk gov whose signature was the first.

all you have proven is that the excuses to protect one of the democrat pin up boys has been in overdrive as not to tarnish his cleaner than thou image in the eyes of the democrat voters

Apirak signed the letter of credit which allows the agreement to continue and therefore to be finalised by the bma

all other reasons relating to corruption and how its handled in thailand, well thats for those to make their own minds up in how they live in this country and for what they can see all around in their daily life

Your posts in my mind give too much of a sense of fairness and and a legal system which allows the guilty to be innocent untill proven guilty and is too liberal thinking when you should have switched off your 1st world legal and fair systems when you first landed in thailand and switched it into the mode of thailand land of corruption at its core in all systems legal and politics without any fairness

And you put so much faith in thailands legal system to judge fairly without prejudice in any case, so as to feel that any judgement by the asc is the correct one, leaves me thinking how on earth do you survive in this country

If you feel this way, why do you live here? Maybe you don't, but then why are you even interested in Thailand since you have such a dim view of it.

Really you think that saying corruption in thailand is being negative? or is it just part of the daily life living in this country and you accept it and understand it so that you can live an enjoyable life in this country as best you can, which i do,

Maybe some people on this forum cannot change their 1st world fainess mindsets enough and view any remark of corruption in thailand as negative towards this country.

i am just remarking on how many foreigners are naive to this country ethics in the world of politics and corruption of which there are a couple on this thread

[Old Man River]

Do you work for the democratic party press junkit?

Or do you just believe everything you read by politicians whose only concern is how to allign their own cash reserves in one of the most corrupt 3rd world countries on the planet

Or are you so naive that you think you are the only one you knows what is best for Thailand?

Your previous statement on the democrats was a loose attempt to tell forum members on what you think is best for thailand.

You certainly have a tendency to believe what you read in the thai press by politcal parties vying for votes

If you think that i am wrong on the corruption in thailand then please tell me, that is what i replied to your post

I don't get all my info from reading. I have the opportunity to talk to those involved in the process as well. My supporting a particular political party as it relates to an upcoming democratic election should not offend you. Why does it?

Hampstead, it is well known that politicians in Thailand are corrupt. It is always an issue of how corrupt. The previous government was so corrupt it gave new meaning to the word.

[Hampstead]

Your earlier post read like some democratic party leaflet about they only care about thailands future, yeah right you mean their own families future earnings

If you think the last gov were so corrupt then what do think of one of the most corrupt entities in thailand, the thai military

these guys really know the meaning of corruption

nice little budget increase?

and how many of these guys will be connected with the next gov. which looks likely to be the democrats.

Of course everyone should want the best for thailand, but why should i applaud some party politician for saying the right things in public to gain votes

[ColPyat]

Hampstead, it is well known that politicians in Thailand are corrupt. It is always an issue of how corrupt. The previous government was so corrupt it gave new meaning to the word.

So, now we will then get instead of a more corrupt government, that has though helped the poor more than any other government in Thai history, a government that is less corrupt, though in coalition with far more corrupt elements, and that has never done anything for the poor in their previous incarnations other than holding speeches of intent.

Great...

[hammered]

Hampstead, it is well known that politicians in Thailand are corrupt. It is always an issue of how corrupt. The previous government was so corrupt it gave new meaning to the word.

So, now we will then get instead of a more corrupt government, that has though helped the poor more than any other government in Thai history, a government that is less corrupt, though in coalition with far more corrupt elements, and that has never done anything for the poor in their previous incarnations other than holding speeches of intent.

Great...

Daniel Ten Kate has an older article on Asia Sentinel which examines the TRT polices to help the poor. While acknowledging the 30 baht shceme, he debunks a lot of the other schemes as being flawed by leakage and no targetting and finally concludes that poverty reduction did occur under the TRT government but that it was because of GDP growth and not policy and was less than under some other governments. In fact at one point he mentions that poverty reduction was far greater under the Suchinda government than the Thaksin one.

I dont see many demanding the return of the Suchinda government because of its record on poverty alleviation.

I dont seem to be able to access the site right now so cant give a link although it has been previously cited on here!

[Hampstead]

Can anyone actually state any democrat party policies if they were to be elected?

it seems all they do is say we will help the poor and help the economy

so what are these policies?

how will they help the poor?

how will the economy benefit?

not one person applauding the democrats on this thread has actually stated any direct policies they will look to introduce if they were to be elected.

[aaaaaa]

it would be good if Democrats would do some actions, as their bold anouncements say! at least some change comparing to mostly talking so far - Thaksin this or that.... why not do better than him and win peoples support?

[sriracha john]

One wonders if the previous government was so beneficial to the poor, just how much more beneficial they could have been WITHOUT six years of unprecented levels of corruption.

[jumnien]

It's a little premature to think of political parties in Thailand. There is one party - it's called the Army. There is a political system - it's called dictatorship. Things may change, they may not.

[Hampstead]

This thread is about the democrats and how they if elected will implement policies to help thailands future

i am not sure if you s john are on the right thread with your comments on the last gov.

no one as yet on this thread as any details on any direct policies that the democrats will introduce if elected

kinda strange for thailands oldest party, with an election luming not to present any direct policies on education, economy and the poor

its not as if they have been in a rush to detail these policies, they have had a few years to sound out which direct policies to use

so what are their policies?

does anyone know, do even the democrat party members know?

[aaaaaa]

if to speak of the exact period of corruption, certainly it is much more than 6 last years - to be fair, we must count all those previous years and even decades !

as for Democrats' policies - I am inclined to agree, it realy appears that they show no any clear agenda. it is more like a convinient cover. just because they call themselves Democrats doesn't make them more democratic than any other possible party.

[ColPyat]

its not as if they have been in a rush to detail these policies, they have had a few years to sound out which direct policies to use

so what are their policies?

does anyone know, do even the democrat party members know?

They have never had any policies. Seems that they haven't broken with that tradition so far.

[pete_r]

As I understand, one of the few things TRT did right was to introduce the concept of policy platform to Thai politics. It was non-existent before them.

[Old Man River]

Hampstead, it is well known that politicians in Thailand are corrupt. It is always an issue of how corrupt. The previous government was so corrupt it gave new meaning to the word.

So, now we will then get instead of a more corrupt government, that has though helped the poor more than any other government in Thai history, a government that is less corrupt, though in coalition with far more corrupt elements, and that has never done anything for the poor in their previous incarnations other than holding speeches of intent.

Great...

To say the Demo's have never done anything for the poor is taking a very narrow view. What they are not known for is giveaways to the poor, instead seeking to promote strong, vibrant economies that benefit many. You can argue that some benefit more than others, but that is the way life is.

Besides, sadly Mdeland may well be correct when he writes: "There is one party - it's called the Army. There is a political system - it's called dictatorship. Things may change, they may not."

What we would like to see is a change through free, fair elections. Then, if it is the Demo's accept it. If it isn't, I will accept it as long as change is done through the democratic process. At the end of the day, isn't that really what we want?

[Old Man River]

As I understand, one of the few things TRT did right was to introduce the concept of policy platform to Thai politics. It was non-existent before them.

That is my understanding a well. What will be interesting is once the players and date of the next election is set, how will those running differentiate themselves from one another? Will it be back to relying on vote buying or will there actually be policy platforms with issues debated? This will be interesting.

[Hampstead]

Old Man River

do you not think you are contradicting yourself in your last 2 posts.

which have yet to state any direct policies of the democrats which as you put it "seeking to promote strong, vibrant economies that benefit many"

arent these the goals of all pre-elected parties to wet the appetite of the voters

and then you flip 180 degrees to say that policy platforms could well be going back to the days of no policy platforms

which is very clearly stating that the new gov. will be a shambolic attempt at running this country

in this day and age, a well organised party to be able to seek a vibrant econmy which benefits all, will certainly need strong policy platforms

[ColPyat]

Hampstead, it is well known that politicians in Thailand are corrupt. It is always an issue of how corrupt. The previous government was so corrupt it gave new meaning to the word.

So, now we will then get instead of a more corrupt government, that has though helped the poor more than any other government in Thai history, a government that is less corrupt, though in coalition with far more corrupt elements, and that has never done anything for the poor in their previous incarnations other than holding speeches of intent.

Great...

To say the Demo's have never done anything for the poor is taking a very narrow view. What they are not known for is giveaways to the poor, instead seeking to promote strong, vibrant economies that benefit many. You can argue that some benefit more than others, but that is the way life is.

Besides, sadly Mdeland may well be correct when he writes: "There is one party - it's called the Army. There is a political system - it's called dictatorship. Things may change, they may not."

What we would like to see is a change through free, fair elections. Then, if it is the Demo's accept it. If it isn't, I will accept it as long as change is done through the democratic process. At the end of the day, isn't that really what we want?

It's a very right wing libertarian view to call social programs "giveaways to the poor". Even most conservative parties in Europe would not argue against a healthcare and social security network, and access to loans for the poor. And yes, before we go into details - i know the problems with implementation etc. here under TRT.

The Democrats have done nothing whatsoever in that direction while they were in government. That is why TRT was elected in the first place. Just because of what their their name is associated with, and that they are the oldest party in Thailand, does not make them a political party i would recognize as such.

Making a "strong, vibrant economy" is not enough, there is also a social contract to be fulfilled. And that was not done by the Democrats. TRT also made a "strong, vibrant economy", some of it was thanks to the previous Democrat government, and some because of TRT policies, and some because of external influences beyond Thai control. But, TRT was the first sort of political party that also had social policies in the agenda, and has delivered on their promises.

One would think, or hope, that the Democrats would take the example, and work on their own. But - what i can read here is the same lukewarm wishywashy intentions they always promoted before elections, and never delivered upon.

You remember the last attempt of the Democrats trying to earn brownie points with the rural poor, last year before the coup, when Abhisit stumbled behind a tractor trying to plow a rice field, and looking embarrassingly out of place. Is that all they can come up with as a response to Thaksin's highly sophisticated strategies of showing closeness to the rural masses?

Oh yes, i very much would have liked to see change through free and fair elections, first in the by the elections boycotted by the Democrats, then in the elections set to have done at the end of last year. But anything that is coming out now from the military engineered next elections with whatever constitution is forced upon the people, will not be free or fair by definition. You can't just use retroactive application of law to disband the most popular party in the country, while the oldest party makes some lipservice speeches, though in reality sucks up to the generals in power, the ones who even try not to get the Democrats to uppity.

The Democrats are simply not able to contest in a free and fair election successfully - they completely lack the abililty to formulate policies, they lack the ability to communicate with and to the largest sectors of Thai society - the rural poor and the urban labor force. They are a regional force (the South) and for a particular social sector (parts of the middle classes), and always have left the majority of the country out of their policies.

The Democrats are as much part of the problem as Thaksin, and the military. They are not the solution, whatever nice faces they put up front.

Maybe you should read todays Bangkok Post piece by Pasul Phongpaichit. It is rather spot on, both in its criticism of Thaksin, and in its criticism of the Military, and whoever supports it (such as the Democrats presently):

http://www.bangkokpost.net/topstories/tops...s.php?id=120556

Mr Thaksin’s populism, the coup and ‘‘managed democracy’’ are all strategies to exclude opponents from the democratic process. Mr Thaksin hijacked the constitution in order to neutralise opponents to his political ambitions. The coup tore up the constitution in order to undermine Mr Thaksin’s massive electoral support. The 2007 constitution is written with the single-minded aim to prevent the return of Mr Thaksin and the social forces he has come to represent.

Politics will only become stable when the political system reflects and accommodates all the important social forces and political aspirations in the society.

Competitive strategies of exclusion will only add to social division and political tension.

[Old Man River]

Old Man River

do you not think you are contradicting yourself in your last 2 posts.

which have yet to state any direct policies of the democrats which as you put it "seeking to promote strong, vibrant economies that benefit many"

arent these the goals of all pre-elected parties to wet the appetite of the voters

and then you flip 180 degrees to say that policy platforms could well be going back to the days of no policy platforms

which is very clearly stating that the new gov. will be a shambolic attempt at running this country

in this day and age, a well organised party to be able to seek a vibrant econmy which benefits all, will certainly need strong policy platforms

I was communicating with people that I know understand Thailand. I will give you that you are trying to learn, but I don't have time to explain to you what the political process in Thailand has been like.

[Hampstead]

So now you have become an emminent teacher on all things thai

good

then how about learning that contradictions are for those people with muddled minds

i had no idea by not following the substandard party propaganda politics being promoted by the democrats that this would make someone less informed on thailand

and if you have such personnel contact with the democrats then surely you should be able to spell out their proposed party policies to turn thailand into some economic utopia for everyone concerned

is this so difficult for you!!

or will you keep up this posture of a high brow status you have adopted on this forum, reacting to all those who are completely in their rights to be cynical of the nature of thai politics

Edited July 31, 2007 by Hampstead

[Hampstead]

why cannot foreigners be cynical of the games being played out at the detriment to those in need in this country

why cannot we retort with cynical sarcasim when we feel that another foreigner is being swayed by the propaganda being thrown out to the masses

that after all that is how i see your posts on this thread on the democrats

nothing more than repeating the party political speech

Edited July 31, 2007 by Hampstead

[hammered]

why cannot foreigners be cynical of the games being played out at the detriment to those in need in this country

why cannot we retort with cynical sarcasim when we feel that another foreigner is being swayed by the propaganda being thrown out to the masses

that after all that is how i see your posts on this thread on the democrats

nothing more than repeating the party political speech

Being cynical, isnt that what democracy is about worldwide? Throwing out propoganda to the masses, or the voters who parties in power then exploit. The majority view is also often ignored worldwide by ruling elites. Or am I being too cynical?

Peace

[Hampstead]

I feel it a free forum of speech to allow myself to be cynical of those foreigners who are expolited by such mass marketing propaganda, in this case the democrats version of propaganda speeches

Maybe you mis-interpreted my post

i was asking the question, why cannot i be cynical towards another foreigner when i feel that the foreigner i am referring to has been taken in by the intensity of propganda by a political party in thailand

there was a time on this forum, a few months ago, that even the word propaganda used on a post, would be swiftly removed and those using the word reminded of the forum rules

thank goodness those days are behind us

Edited July 31, 2007 by Hampstead

[blaze]

why cannot foreigners be cynical of the games being played out at the detriment to those in need in this country

why cannot we retort with cynical sarcasim when we feel that another foreigner is being swayed by the propaganda being thrown out to the masses

that after all that is how i see your posts on this thread on the democrats

nothing more than repeating the party political speech

Being cynical, isnt that what democracy is about worldwide? Throwing out propoganda to the masses, or the voters who parties in power then exploit. The majority view is also often ignored worldwide by ruling elites. Or am I being too cynical?

Peace

Sorry to barge in- but I have to disagree Hammered- what democracy demands is not cynicism- but skepticism- and that requires information. It could be argued that those claiming to be most disenchanted with democracy in the west have very little understanding of the process- and scorn participation-beyond casting a vote every four years- if that. Then they complain that the process doesn't listen to them.

I believe that the Thai society- being closer perhaps to the collective decision making that was essential in all agrarian societies at one time, has the opportunity to develop a functioning democracy from the ground up- but it will require careful scrutiny and skepticism of established political practices. Cynicism however, is the breeding gound for fascism. And that is no answer.

[Hampstead]

i agree that skepticism is far more apt than cynicism

the reason that i use the cynicism in certain posts is reaction to certain posters, who always seem to pigeon hole certain members

for example many view the majority of thai politicians as ruthless, corrupt whose only goal in life is to see the many millions invested to attain their role in society is to make sure that once in their favoured position their initial investment is well rewarded through the kickbacks they receive

so when reading a thread on the democrats, one has very many doubts whether these grandiouse future plans will ever come to fruition in thailand, even if they are to be elected.

but when asking the question in this way on the democrats, then many on this thread applauding their virtues react pigeon holing people into pro trt or anti trt

and as such if you are deemed pro-last gov. you immediately receive such distain posts on the last gov.

after all this thread is about the democrats and not the last gov.

Edited July 31, 2007 by Hampstead