When To Move/need Advice

[Dakhar]

I am very new here. Fact is, this is the first time to post on the forum. Although, I have surfed throughout this forum for information for the past year or so.

OK, to the point. I am 32 yr old male my wife is a 27yr old Thai, who just recently recieved her M.S. at Tx A&M.

I have a 6 fig income that fluctuates between 120-180K a year. I am in the medical business.

Here is the problem, my wife is dead set on returning to Thailand. I really do not have a problem with this. But I do not want to return until have have the money saved up to do so. (Just so you know, I lived in Taiwan for a few years, learned to speak Mandarin, traveled throuhout Asia, and have visited Thailand 3 times)

So the question is, how much money should I save up for this change of life?

Through me, my wife recently bought a small piece of land, and we are having 7 town houses put down on it. The total investment is around 70K USD. The expected income is 24500 monthly THB.

Now my wife and I think that land development may be a good way for me to earn a living over there..... I do not want to move to Thailand and be POOR. Especially when I have accomplished so much here in the U.S.

So here are the questions:

1) is land development and option

2) how much money do I need saved up in order to live a comfortable semi-retired life style?

[Crocs]

If you're earning that kind of money stick with it for another five years and then retire. You can always make regular extended trips to Thailand and scout out business opportunites in the mean time. You will regret it if you give up your achievements before time IMHO.

[iwan]

hi Dakhar,

i have quite a similiar situation though i earn less but my wife is quite convinced (another word is "no choice") that while we can make an adequate life in Thailand, we will not be able to be rich enough to retire early and do the things we wanted to if we go back now.

So we are leveraging on the disparity of earnings and hope to retire there in 10 years' time. Hopefully the investments there would start to generate income and we still have some savings. i intend to keep the property outside Thailand for extra rental and other "just in case" situations.

However, the actual timeframe to return is up to your circumstances. That will depend on your level of savings and how much you are able to generate future income from whatever you have, assuming that you can keep above inflation rate returns, balance the book, etc.

i don't plan to retire in Thailand as i think it will just be a new chapter living and having some form of enterprise, business or otherwise, for cashflow and giving back. So till then we will have to do our part to make it come through.

[Dakhar]

I don't really expect to retire... It really how you define the word retire. I define as doing something you enjoy, and doing it when you want to...

If the activity generates money, so be it...

It is nice to hear from iwan, good to know I am not the only crazy guy out there that there Thai wife has pretty much demanded to return to Thailand or else she goes back on her own, with 50% of all that I have built thus far....

I do not want to paint her as a bad person, she is not....

[iwan]

good to know I am not the only crazy guy out there

That makes two of us

[dr_Pat_Pong]

I am very new here. Fact is, this is the first time to post on the forum. Although, I have surfed throughout this forum for information for the past year or so.

OK, to the point. I am 32 yr old male my wife is a 27yr old Thai, who just recently recieved her M.S. at Tx A&M.

I have a 6 fig income that fluctuates between 120-180K a year. I am in the medical business.

Here is the problem, my wife is dead set on returning to Thailand. I really do not have a problem with this. But I do not want to return until have have the money saved up to do so. (Just so you know, I lived in Taiwan for a few years, learned to speak Mandarin, traveled throuhout Asia, and have visited Thailand 3 times)

So the question is, how much money should I save up for this change of life?

Through me, my wife recently bought a small piece of land, and we are having 7 town houses put down on it. The total investment is around 70K USD. The expected income is 24500 monthly THB.

Now my wife and I think that land development may be a good way for me to earn a living over there..... I do not want to move to Thailand and be POOR. Especially when I have accomplished so much here in the U.S.

So here are the questions:

1) is land development and option

2) how much money do I need saved up in order to live a comfortable semi-retired life style?

Are you a doctor ?

[Dakhar]

Dr. P

I am honored to hear from you. The answer to your question is "Yes and No."

I am not a physician, but I shall recieve my doctorate in the ancillary (sp) field of medicine that I practice in 9/04. I am an audiologist, I specialize in hearing, balance, diagnostic etc. Basically anything regarding the hearing mechanism, I am a part of.

I currently hold a M.S. in the field of Audiology. To practice audiology in America you must at least have a M.S. and by the year 2007 you will need a doctorate degree to practice.....

But, I am also envolved in the business of medicine, management, equipment sales, consulting etc.

Thanks for asking Dr. P....

and you, Dr. P. what is your specialization?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Mine is but a humble Ph.D in the esoteric world of political science ( if that isn't a massive oxymoron ) The Thai government is presently permitting competent well trained medico's to practice in Thailand. Whether it extends to your specialization is another thing.

[ProThaiExpat]

I have a friend that is separated from his love and planning retirement from a high paying U.S. job this year at age 47. His "retirement" really kicks in when he reaches 60, so he has 12 years or so to get by until he is fully funded. He is planning on a 28K monthly income as survival until a luxurious retirement.

He already has a house, mostly furnished and a car in Thailand and I think he can make it on that, although a little tough during the later years of the 12. He can work, if necessary, as a teacher, I suspect, free-lance in his expertise with the expat community (computers) or put the wife to work, she is graduating university this year.

I have no difficulty living comfortably in the provinces on 30k a month, but I am much older, don't desire to go out to eat more than twice a week or so and don't drink or smoke. Younger people who still have the "itch" to travel, visit every corner of Thailand or like to party, may well have a problem living on this amount.

I am saving more than twice that amount from my "retirent" income in anticipation of late life dimunition of income and inflation, but that is merely an option, I spend what I want and only marginally worry about expenses. Just bought a 25cu ft side-by-side for 125K as an example, but that is a discretionary spend, not a fixed expense. The 30k is in recognition of fixed expenses and I include everday needs in that figure.

[LivinLOS]

I am practically the same age as you (31 in a month or more) and I made the leap you are thinking of for similar reasons a couple of years back..

My fear of the future and changing life situations made me think that I would not even consider stopping major earnings without 1 mil USD to back me up.. Here on Phuket life is not cheap like a lot of Thailand.. Seaview villas are 1/2 mil and up.. etc etc etc

I would not want to go from being affluent to ending up running out of money in my 40's or 50's... Having to start it all again at that age would be a major kick in the balls.

[GuestHouse]

The things I wanted to do when I was 32 years old are diametrically oposite the things I want to do now, twelve years later. The things you want to do and the things your wife want to do will change too.

My advice to you, and I am in the same income bracket, is make money while money is to be had.

Put your money offshore - outside of US juristiction and certainly not in Thailand.

Reading between the lines it appears to me that your wife is more set on this move back to Thailand than you are, that might be a problem in the future if you loose your income and are faced with the other problem.

The other problem is that you will be totally at the mercy of your wife and her family if you run a family business in Thailand, you can not own land, I am not aware that you can trade land, it follows therefore that any land trading or property business will be in the control of your wife.

There are visa problems, you would be extremely fortunate to gain permanant residence and hence will always remain a 'guest'.

As someone said above you earn good money, you can afford to save and retire early if that is what you want to do, or start something new.

The problem I see with the ideas you have is they are capital hungry, your capital. This is capital that is tied up in Thailand and I presume in your wife's name.

THIS IS NOT A JUDGEMENT OF YOU OR YOUR WIFE, but the risks are too high. Divorce or a real emergency in your wife's family could, I would say almost certainly would, place your investment at risk.

You have made an investment of 70K and you have a predicted return, I suggest that you let that settle, see how that goes and look to see if it will continue as a reliable income before you put more money in.

Bear in mind that if you want to achieve the same income as you have now you will need another 23 such housing developements.

Don't forget the old advice - Never put all your eggs in one basket.

To that I would add, never put all your eggs in someone elses basket.

If you really want to continue and run a property business then I suggest you pay for good legal advice and look into running a company that is not in anyway controlled by family or friends.

That advice runs true anywhere, it is double so in Thailand.

[Dakhar]

Guys,

The funny thing is, I don't even live an afluent life style.... exept for the M3 BMW parked in the garage, and even then, the car is almost 10 years old.

I live in a town house, in order to expenses low. My wife counts every penney, and we save a lot. I predict we will probbaly pay off our town house after living in it in 3 years. My school loans have also been paid off.

I am also in agreement to earnestly save money for the future in Thailand. I just hope my wife has the patients to allow me to do so!

I started my own company about 6 months ago, and I have made net around 7k a month off of the company. I also maintain employment with another company as their audiologist, which also brings to the table around another 7k a month.

I tell you this, because I want you all to understand, I have been "building" a life, a company, and a great future at a fairly young age.... and my company has great potential.... So I have some reserves about going to Thailand. I only want to go, if I can be succesful. I don't want to have to go, and have regrets.... I can not really comprehend voluntarily being poor???? It just does not make since.

Dr. P

I did have a meeting with Thamasat (sp) university some time ago, they asked me to help them start an audiology program, since the entire country of thailand only has one audiology program.... Thamasat also would like one.

The offered pay was 36,000BHT a month, wich is not even enough to get a work visa.... and I have heard that Thamasat pays their English teachers better than that.....

So naturally I turned that job down....

But like I said before, I am thinking semi retired the life I want to lead when I get there

Thank you all for your replies

[LivinLOS]

Make hay while the sun shines.. Your wife should understand that opportunities like this do not come along to many times and while it is chauvanistic to say so you control the purse stings and you will be responsible for providing for her in Thailand so YOU should make the choice when you have enough.

A mil does not go nearly as far as it used to.

[Ted]

Dakhar,

Have you thought about moving closer to Thailand? Surely someone with you medical background could find employment in Hong kong or Singapore. You could then either be based in Thailand and commute Monday to Friday to HK / Sing or vice versa? With the increase in budget travel starting to penetrate the airline industry in the region it would make sense. I work as a recruiter (not medical) and see many contractors doing this.

[Dakhar]

Thanks Ted for the reply and suggestion.

Yes, I have looked into Singapore. Looked at a very nice/large medical/educational hospital.... But from what I could tell, they wanted to pay at a charity level.

But I do keep my options open. It really is a question of savings power rather than actual income. In other words, if I earned less but saved more in China, then I would be on a plane today....

I do have a freind in China that has his own hearing aid company... Pretty darn large one at that. We actually went to the same college. Anyhow, he wants me to come out and visit his facilities this winter....

The problem is, we both have companies, and I do not want to leave mine without a BIG reason. Yes, his company makes mine look like grain of sand on the beach.... But in the end my small company is still mine...

thanks for the replies guys, and I look forward to one day meeting you all....

[Mango-Guy]

Dak - the odd thing with your thinking is that you have put all this time into becoming an audio-ologist phd, and your company, and just as you are heading for the growth phase, you're thinking of semi-retiring. As said before, MAKE HAY WHILE THE SUN SHINES, you have plenty of time to slow things down in Thailand.

[Dakhar]

I agree guys make hay while the sun shines....

the problem is, what about her, she really does not grasp the concept of the hard earned dollar... she just kind of figures it is part of the deal. Truth is, I really do well for and audiologist. If I had just relied on my degree.... Heck, I would make around 1/3 what I make now. If I got a job somewhere else, forget about it, the HAY would not be there....

wish I were there with yall

Dak

[Mango-Guy]

That's very rare for a Thai (especially an educated Thai) to not understand the value of money !!! What does "part of the deal" mean ? Could it be that you live in a location that she is less keen on ? I know (educated) Thai women in the UK that work / run business here while there family is in BKK precisely because the $ signs are ringing in. Maybe she just misses Thailand and wants to go back regardless of money in international terms.

[GuestHouse]

I presume, I may be wrong, that you have US Citizenship.

If so you are entitled to own your own business outright in Thailand under the treaty of amity.

That might be a way in which you could set up in Thailand. However, be warned, if you set any business up and it makes money the Thais will copy your business, sometimes by opening up next door to you with a very similar name.

But again reading between the lines I still think, business is not he heart of your problem, you need to sort out with your wife what you both want to do. If she stays stateside but doesn't want to stay or you go to Thailand but regret going then you are going to have problems.

I'd ask, how old is your wife? How long has she lived outside of Thailand? Has she been working since graduation? How long have you been married?

You need to look at things from her view, but you also need to realise that you have a right to your life too.

I saw your other post regarding your wife visiting Sunbelt Asia. - This is your business right? You should be there doing the talking, it should be your choices.

In Thai culture you will be expected to provide for your wife, and perhaps her family, that is the responsibility that comes with a Thai wife, but the flip side is you make the money, you have to make the decissions to protect and grow your income.

Thais have the highest return rate of all imigrants to the US, they generally are not good at being expats.

To me this looks like all give from you and all take from your wife.

[ProThaiExpat]

GuestHouse: What superb, articulate and sound advice. Bravo.

[iwan]

That's very rare for a Thai (especially an educated Thai) to not understand the value of money !!! What does "part of the deal" mean ? Could it be that you live in a location that she is less keen on ? I know (educated) Thai women in the UK that work / run business here while there family is in BKK precisely because the $ signs are ringing in. Maybe she just misses Thailand and wants to go back regardless of money in international terms.

i do sincerely believe everybody loves having more money. But if case you forget, Thialand is a high contact society and people are brought up that way. Back home, my wife can happily talk to anyone she meets in the village down the road and then ask me who that was. And she is not even a very outgoing sort of person.

The fact that she studied in Australia for her BSc, UK for MSc and now pursuing her PhD while working does not lessen the heart's yearn for her birthplace. It is almost a birth right.

This issue crops up with some regularity, like once every quarter, like the seasons, when we "debate" about the fairness of us being in my home country. Other than cold hard cash as a way to placate this feeling, the only other thing i can do is to show i care but at the same time engage her into other activities that can broaden her life views and experiences in a positive way. We tend to unwrittenly agree that all the things we embark will serve as a preparation for going back to Thailand eventually.

Guess everyone has a different disposition but sometimes we treat the symptons and forgot about the causes. If it is the heart, do more work with the heart.

[Dakhar]

Hey guys, thanks for the replies.

Some clarification, she got her M.S. from Texas A&M, a school in the U.S.

I am the one working on the doctorate.

She went to Sunbelt under my request.

Again, I do not mind the idea of returning/living in Thailand too much. But I want to do so under my terms. Not just uproot with no cares to the future. If one day I have no money to buy shoes for my future kid/s it is my fault and no one elses. I must consider the future. This is what I can not get drilled into her head. She just thinks with her heart.... "Got to be close to Mommy" and does not think with the wallet.

I have lived over seas, I went for 2 years straight without seing any of my family members, I trully can relate to how she feels. I send her home probbably 2-3 times a year, and she is gone around 4 months or more out of the year to be with family and Mommy. Trust me, I do enough to placate her needs to see family. She calls home probbably 2-3 times a week, and I do not even blink....

Now I will agree, she has had little chance to establish a life here. Such as a job, friends etc. But if you spend most of your time travelling around the world... how can you find a job? Currently she is on a plane to Germany, and after that she will be on a plane to Hawai all with her mommy.... Eventually she will find her way back to America...

Thank goodness!

Oh and then she leaves again to California in October to participate in a convention that her mother shall attend, so she can see her mommy again, and then she hopes to go back to Thailand in December....

Are we getting a clearer picture here folks?

[GuestHouse]

This is not getting a lot better is it?!

In my first response I advised you put your money offshore, out of reach of US juristiction - definately not in Thailand.

You might want to consider doing that right about now.

One more question, is your wife Chinese Thai?

[Dakhar]

She is Thai...

Sorry to vent. She really is a nice person...

Back to focus, how much would one want saved up...

I am thinking 300K USD on the low and 500K on the high...

[Dakhar]

Sorry, I thought the question was, is she Tai or Chinese...

I would have to say mostly Thai, she does have some "anglo" in her, but that is I think was her Great Gandmother... or maybe even further back....

I do not think she has Chinese roots... if so, I am not aware of them

She is kind of a strange Thai in a way. What I mean is, she comes from a long line of poverty... which is not uncommon in Thailand... But her mother a little over 20 years ago landed a job, climed the ladder and now makes a million THB a year... A rags to riches kind of storry... My wife is the first in the family, and perhaps throughout the generations to recieve a degree.... I am proud of her for that, not to mention to do it in a forieng country...

I guess what I really need first am fore most is a comitment to the mariage, then worry about when to return to Thailand....

Thanks guys

[Mango-Guy]

Dak - "a commitment to the marriage" WHOA! Let me reduce the volume of those alarm bells ringing. Commitment is one thing I never doubt, and I imagine it to be the same for most Farang-Thai couples.

Maybe others will have another opinion, but Thai women are trained by their culture to submit to male authority - especially in familiy matters. This is odd, maybe she has picked up too much American feminist ideals at Texas A&M.

And if anything a Thai family will respect a man who is working his ass off for the future - wherever he needs to be based. I'd put your clear thinking cap on before you make any big decisions.

[Dakhar]

Thanks Mango Man,

I like this forum...

I used to read the "Ajarn" (sp) forum, but I leaned toward this one because it seems to me that this forum contains more professionals and not back-packers.

No I have nothing against them, in fact there was a time when I envied them. To be that free would be an amazing experience....

But with the changes of life, I am where I am now....

Thank you all for your replies, and when my wife comes back, I hope we can work togerther to accomplish the goal of returning to Thailand....

I think it would be one of the hardest and the best experience of my life

[Martin]

I have just noticed this thread, whilst looking for something else.

It clicks with a few things that I have sometimes cogitated on.

First, focussing on Dakhar's topic:

A wise old boy who had spent decades here on-and-off, advised me, when I first came to LOS:

1. In Thailand, no 'farang' should invest a cent more than he can afford to walk away from.

2. Don't compete with the Thais. Don't try any business that the Thais can do, too.

Unfortunately, he was so old that he tired too quickly for me to press him to let me pick his brains for what had caused him to formulate/believe in those two rules. But they made sense to me, so I have followed them.

So I fear that you are 'standing into danger' doing the property-development thing, Dakhar. Mind you, though, a lot of ships do/have to stand into danger, but manage to cope with the hazards.

Second, on the broader and deeper underpinning:

I sense that we farangs and the Thais do not share what I will call 'the Anglo-Saxon developed middle-class mores', until I sort out my glimmerings a bit further. Maybe the Thais (and maybe it is "Lucky Them"!!) are less generations removed from the mindsets instilled by subsistence farming.

As a child, I was taught (nay, was brain washed with) "Waste not, want not", "Don't live on your Capital", "Defer immediate pleasure if that will probably result in considerably more in the future", and so forth.

Maybe a lot of our cultural differences stem from climate. In the northern, temperate climes those Europeans had to think ahead and be clever with their Spring, Summer, Autumn activities if they were to survive Winter and gradually improve their lot. But in the tropics there would have been less urgency, as there was 'wild' food all the year round----and anything saved wouldn't last, anyway.

In my marriage, bridging the culture gap has meant us both adapting the things that were dinned into us as children. (But my wife still finds it hard to let go of "If it ain't still twitching, it ain't fresh, and 'tis dangerous to eat it!! )

[iwan]

Dakhar,

Sorry if i am being straight forward. i think you are too good to your wife. Fact is you can never be too good.

At one point, i just told my wife that i am the head of the family and if she wants to go back any sooner, she will have to work hard and not deviate from the plan we have. The truth is that every effort, every cent counts towards getting nearer to the goal. My take is, if certain foundations, provisions are not sorted out earlier, once we are everntually back in Thailand, at the end of the hoarding period, ready to enjoy the fruits in winter, we will have challenges.

Then again, with you background and experience, you might also want to consider things from the Thai end of doing the business. Communicate with her mom to explore options.

At the end of the day, you have to take charge and make a stand as to what is best for you and your family in the long run.

Take care and hope all goes well.

[Dakhar]

Thanks Iwan,

I was just thinking today that I wish I was married to myself...

I'd be a pretty lucky fella!

My wife has no problems not deviating from the plan. Which is kind of a problem, a man's got to have toys.... We still have to enjoy life somewhat.

What I would like to see, is her get a job, with her fresh degree, and we live off of that income, and just store all my income away....

Trust me, it can be done, we live a very conservative life style. All cars are paid for (because they are old), school loans paid for, her college is paid for, my doctorate degree is paid for, (by my employers) the little town house we live in should be paid for by the end of the year...

No real credit card debt to speak of....

And best of all, no kids....

Iwan, sounds like you and I are on the same track.

I met a guy, born Thai, grew up in America, obtained an MBA, saved up, maried a nice Thai girl, and they returned to Thailand. They could have had the American dream. But instead decided to go back to Thailand.

Whatever it is that Thailand has, that can do that to a person.... I hope I discover it also