Government Concerned About Farang Learning Bad Thai

[garro]

I was wathcing channel 7 news last night and they had a segment about how the government was concerned about learners of the Thai language being taught vulgur expressions. They were complaining about books/dictionaries containing these words and wanted to stop them containing such language. I am not sure exactly which books they were refering to but I know at least two books by Benjawan Poomsan Becker contains this type of material, especially book 2 in the 'speak like a Thai' series. I am not sure how the government plan to stop it, ban some language books? block more internet sites?

I agree that us westerners going around Thailand speaking like Thai gangsters and yaa baa users probably isn't a good thing but isn't useful to at least know these words. Especially since some of the less vulgar ones, twee, are often used in Thai soaps?

[PeaceBlondie]

When I taught 7th graders (M1, govt. school, remote provincial capital), several students had the cheapest Thai-English pocketbook dictionaries. For some reason we looked and found that the English word masturbate was in there! I didn't bother to check for other words. It's not as if teenagers don't do such things; not as if they might not hear the English equivalents. You can't just tell a kid to go fly a kite....

[meadish_sweetball]

I was wathcing channel 7 news last night and they had a segment about how the government was concerned about learners of the Thai language being taught vulgur expressions. They were complaining about books/dictionaries containing these words and wanted to stop them containing such language. I am not sure exactly which books they were refering to but I know at least two books by Benjawan Poomsan Becker contains this type of material, especially book 2 in the 'speak like a Thai' series. I am not sure how the government plan to stop it, ban some language books? block more internet sites?

I agree that us westerners going around Thailand speaking like Thai gangsters and yaa baa users probably isn't a good thing but isn't useful to at least know these words. Especially since some of the less vulgar ones, twee, are often used in Thai soaps?

There's a fundamental difference in view in this issue. Most educated farang would probably agree one should learn about all aspects of a language, and learn to apply them in a proper setting, like a native, in order to increase your knowledge and be aware of what is going on around you, whereas many (most?) educated Thais seem to look upon their language as something to be honoured and treated with care... a more conservative view.

I think it is fair to say that in general, Thais like to present a perfect facade to the outside world, whether on a personal or national level, and the fact that their language (like every other single language in the world) is also fully capable of expressing the ugly, the sexual, the mundane and the rude, is something they would rather not be reminded of, or indeed able to see the benefit of - unless it is done in a setting and by a person they are used to (farang typically do not fall into this category).

It's important to be very careful as a language learner - swear words and rude words in a second language will never have the same bite in your own ears, as the ones you were told to wash your mouth out with soap for using by your parents... but they will to Thais.

[londonthai]

as the thai government hadn't got bigger problems with which they can't cope to solve (like 10% illiteracy of the local population), than vulgarisms in the books for foreigners.

[rgs2001uk]

i personally think the thai government should be asking themselves why some farang are bettered educated and more literate in the thai language than some native thais.

as for banning books and internet sites, well so what, that isnt going to stop farangs learning this type of vocabulary, its in constant use every night outside the local sorry shop i use, the only way to stop farangs learning it is to stop thais using it, which will never happen. building sites etc are the same the world over, and this sort of vocabulary will always be used.

maybe what is really pissing the government off is the fact that this sort of choice vocabulary is increasingly being used in reference to the government.

[rgs2001uk]

garro,

forgot to ask, did you see the item last night about the elephant that went crazy because some idiot had hammered a nail into it.

the idiot was getting tossed around like a rag doll, by one hel_l of a pissed of elephant, think it was in rayong.

the guy eventually was taken to hospital, but popped his clogs later.

the elephant was that smart it even started on the idiots pick up truck, before it was eventually subdued.

[roietjimmy]

When I taught 7th graders (M1, govt. school, remote provincial capital), several students had the cheapest Thai-English pocketbook dictionaries. For some reason we looked and found that the English word masturbate was in there! I didn't bother to check for other words. It's not as if teenagers don't do such things; not as if they might not hear the English equivalents. You can't just tell a kid to go fly a kite....

You certainly can't tell a kid to go fly a kite.... It would get you arrested!

Me thinks you know too much Thai!!

[southerndog]

This country seems to love micro managing.. Don't like something??? Let's make a LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!

[garro]

garro,

forgot to ask, did you see the item last night about the elephant that went crazy because some idiot had hammered a nail into it.

the idiot was getting tossed around like a rag doll, by one hel_l of a pissed of elephant, think it was in rayong.

the guy eventually was taken to hospital, but popped his clogs later.

the elephant was that smart it even started on the idiots pick up truck, before it was eventually subdued.

Sorry rgs but I missed that one. Sounds like the stuff of nightmares

[mangkorn]

Sorry to rain on the parade, but I'm quite certain they were addressing their concerns about what Thai children are learning - not farangs. There was no mention of farangs, and I doubt that they would ever care one whit about what farangs are learning, or not. (And why would they? The fact is that only a miniscule number of farangs study Thai language, anyway.)

Those officials were just being fairly typical of old people fretting over youth slang, and what they see as the degradation of the langauge and youth culture, etc. Farangs should be careful to not over-estimate their significance to others. It ain't all about you.

Cheers.

Edited July 27, 2007 by mangkorn

[garro]

Sorry to rain on the parade, but I'm quite certain they were addressing their concerns about what Thai children are learning - not farangs. There was no mention of farangs, and I doubt that they would ever care one whit about what farangs are learning, or not. (And why would they? The fact is that only a miniscule number of farangs study Thai language, anyway.)

Those officials were just being fairly typical of old people fretting over youth slang, and what they see as the degradation of the langauge and youth culture, etc. Farangs should be careful to not over-estimate their significance to others. It ain't all about you.

Cheers.

Don't fret about raining on anybodys parade but as I said in the OP the news item I watched was about concern that Thai learners were picking up vulgur expreressions. If I misunderstood this I apologise. I realise thai it ain't all about me and that as a farang I am insignificant. Thank you for pointing it out though.

Have a nice night

[mangkorn]

It's all good, Garro. My own misinterpretations are legion. But I just happened to be following that particular story. I was actually responding some knee-jerking unleashed by your original post, also.

[mrtoad]

It's another example of what happens when you have people running the country who have opinions and values that are about 60 years out of date. How can they represent the people when they don't even understand the modern language used by them?

All languages are living, they evolve whether we like it or not.

As allready mentioned there are far more important things that need to be addressed in Thaiand, and I don't think that this is one of them.

[CSS]

As allready mentioned there are far more important things that need to be addressed in Thaiand, and I don't think that this is one of them.

I would second that...and apply it to this thread. Could we all please return to discussing Thai language. I enjoy the Thai language forum particularly because it generally stays away from the ever present squabbling in the other forums of disparaging/bashing Thai people/culture/character/government on the one side and rose tinted adoration on the other. Could we please return to discussions strictly about language?

I personally don't find the learning of vulgar words necessary. I've never taken the time to learn them in any of the languages I've learned to speak, though, expectedly, I have picked some up through daily life. Personally I find the volume of vocabulary in any language so great that there is always a word outside the accepted set of vulgar words that is more worthwhile to learn so I don't, in my opinion, waste my time and memory space learning the vulgar words. I don't intend to ever use them (even in my native language (English) I find that vulgarities are used when the speaker cannot properly articulate themselves with descriptive words so they fall back on vulgar words that only in a broad general context cover what they are feeling or thinking). I also have no interest in knowing or understanding the vulgarities spoken to me. Inevitably the context and harshness of voice will give me all the clues necessary to know what they are saying, without knowing the specific words. Even if they slip an insult in without my realizing it, it just saves me from becoming upset, which I'd prefer not to be.

This is just my opinion on the subject of expletives but I in no way find my arguments air tight or even convincing. They are just strong enough to direct my own actions but I find those choosing to learn these words to be perfectly reasonably as well.

[Gimbo]

These people probably think that anyone speaking any dialect other than the poshest of Bangkok Thai is vulgar. No matter how polite they speak...

[mangkorn]

CSS: your points are good and valid, but what triggered this thread were not "vulgarities" in the sense of aggessive/offensive/"dirty" words; it was invented slang. One example given was a strange concoction evidently gaining truck with some youth today, "ap-baen" (or something like that) - in which the first sylllable appears to have been copped from the English prefix "ab-" (e.g., abnormal) and added to a Thai word, resulting in a colloquial meaning something akin to "acting crazy, goofy, loco, etc."

I may not be interpreting that particular expression with complete accuracy (I didn't pay too much attention to it, because I probably wouldn't have any use for it myself), but that's not the point. The point is that some of the old, patriarchal conservatives were griping about all of the incomprehensible new slang inventions of the Kewl Kids - whom they fear are degrading the language in this way. That is the same gripe that you might hear anywhere, in any country, culture or language.

The issue was not about "dirty words" or "swear words," or whatever you call those.

It was about new slang terms.

People (especially youth) will always invent new slang words. Noone can control that. Whether one likes it or not is something else, and can be argued about 'til the cows come home. There is a lot of English and Spanish slang that I find to be inane and stupid, but then that's just my personal taste. And there are also a lot of slang words that I think are just fabulous. It's the same in Thai. Too each his own in that regard.

But some old people are always gonna complain about "kids today..."

Nee la chi-wit.

[CSS]

CSS: your points are good and valid, but what triggered this thread were not "vulgarities" in the sense of aggessive/offensive/"dirty" words; it was invented slang. One example given was a strange concoction evidently gaining truck with some youth today, "ap-baen" (or something like that) - in which the first sylllable appears to have been copped from the English prefix "ab-" (e.g., abnormal) and added to a Thai word, resulting in a colloquial meaning something akin to "acting crazy, goofy, loco, etc."

I may not be interpreting that particular expression with complete accuracy (I didn't pay too much attention to it, because I probably wouldn't have any use for it myself), but that's not the point. The point is that some of the old, patriarchal conservatives were griping about all of the incomprehensible new slang inventions of the Kewl Kids - whom they fear are degrading the language in this way. That is the same gripe that you might hear anywhere, in any country, culture or language.

The issue was not about "dirty words" or "swear words," or whatever you call those.

It was about new slang terms.

People (especially youth) will always invent new slang words. Noone can control that. Whether one likes it or not is something else, and can be argued about 'til the cows come home. There is a lot of English and Spanish slang that I find to be inane and stupid, but then that's just my personal taste. And there are also a lot of slang words that I think are just fabulous. It's the same in Thai. Too each his own in that regard.

But some old people are always gonna complain about "kids today..."

Nee la chi-wit.

Thanks for the clarification Mangkorn. I guess I fall somewhere in the middle of that debate. I think the "proper/standard" form of the language (whether that be Thai, English, Spanish) should be learned and used in certain arenas. However, letting the language breath and grow should also be encouraged and new words, phrases, grammatical structures grown and slowly brought into the "standard."

[garro]

I think it can be very hard to decide what is vulgar and what is not. I remember a few months ago reading a book called ตัวกู ของกู (dtua guu kong guu) and thinking that this use of กู would probably be viewed as vulgar by many Thais (I posted about it here at the time). This however was a book written by a well respected monk พุทธาสภิกขู

[Kaojai]

That is the same gripe that you might hear anywhere, in any country, culture or language.

But some old people are always gonna complain about "kids today..."

Yes, exactly.

The French were (are??) going crazy about all the English creeping into their language.

In America, and probably elsewhere, text-messages on the mobile phone, rap "music", movie marketing, etc are causing anxiety for the few remaining English speakers still living there.

While language is dynamic and changes with the times, there's still good reason for conservatives (not all of whom are "old people") to want to preserve the language and allow change to be practical and measured rather than dictated by school drop-outs and illiterate graffiti artists.

The computer age has meant that languages have had to change out of necessity to deal with this important all-encompassing addition to our lives. That's reasonable. Changing the language to accomodate teenagers who are having hormonal hot flashes is not.

[captainstabbin]

As most modern words are adopted in one form or another into most languages (think computer, microchip, software, HIV, signal (Mobile phone), apartment, fashion, shopping etc.) it is a little 'against the tide' to rail against this. The French have tried doing so for years - and look where it got them!

[mangkorn]

That is the same gripe that you might hear anywhere, in any country, culture or language.

But some old people are always gonna complain about "kids today..."

Yes, exactly.

The French were (are??) going crazy about all the English creeping into their language.

In America, and probably elsewhere, text-messages on the mobile phone, rap "music", movie marketing, etc are causing anxiety for the few remaining English speakers still living there.

While language is dynamic and changes with the times, there's still good reason for conservatives (not all of whom are "old people") to want to preserve the language and allow change to be practical and measured rather than dictated by school drop-outs and illiterate graffiti artists.

The computer age has meant that languages have had to change out of necessity to deal with this important all-encompassing addition to our lives. That's reasonable. Changing the language to accomodate teenagers who are having hormonal hot flashes is not.

I do appreciate those concerns (lae kaojai duai). But you would be very wrong in saying that anyone is accommodating teenagers - nor ever has. Slang words are never created with any official or unofficial permission from anybody. They just happen. What are you proposing, to prevent that? What exactly are you saying? Masses of people make their own language, even (or especially) in totalitarian societies. Latin was one language which was strictly regulated to keep out the contamination of the "vulgate" - i.e., what real people spoke. As a direct result, Latin died as a practical language, and the various forms of the vulgate became the Romance languages; that includes the French language that those people are so passionately attached to, without even recognizing that it was once considered "vulgar" by "civilized" people.

Like it or not, there's nothing you can do about the way people choose to speak. Nothing at all.

[captainstabbin]

That is the same gripe that you might hear anywhere, in any country, culture or language.

But some old people are always gonna complain about "kids today..."

Yes, exactly.

The French were (are??) going crazy about all the English creeping into their language.

In America, and probably elsewhere, text-messages on the mobile phone, rap "music", movie marketing, etc are causing anxiety for the few remaining English speakers still living there.

While language is dynamic and changes with the times, there's still good reason for conservatives (not all of whom are "old people") to want to preserve the language and allow change to be practical and measured rather than dictated by school drop-outs and illiterate graffiti artists.

The computer age has meant that languages have had to change out of necessity to deal with this important all-encompassing addition to our lives. That's reasonable. Changing the language to accomodate teenagers who are having hormonal hot flashes is not.

I do appreciate those concerns (lae kaojai duai). But you would be very wrong in saying that anyone is accommodating teenagers - nor ever has. Slang words are never created with any official or unofficial permission from anybody. They just happen. What are you proposing, to prevent that? What exactly are you saying? Masses of people make their own language, even (or especially) in totalitarian societies. Latin was one language which was strictly regulated to keep out the contamination of the "vulgate" - i.e., what real people spoke. As a direct result, Latin died as a practical language, and the various forms of the vulgate became the Romance languages; that includes the French language that those people are so passionately attached to, without even recognizing that it was once considered "vulgar" by "civilized" people.

Like it or not, there's nothing you can do about the way people choose to speak. Nothing at all.

I completely agree, although like to think that I am a stickler for correct written English (spelling and typos on forums exempted ). I am embarrassed to say, however, that I had to get some 'sms speak' words translated by a 17 year old when in UK two months ago. I am 33, so I understand how bewildering the rate of change must seem in this fast-communication age to the septagenarians in charge