Looking For Some Encouragement!

[southerndog]

I've been trying for some time now, and the tones really aren't coming to me... Whether it be speaking, or listening.

I'm interested in hearing some stories perhaps of people who struggled but eventually got the tones down. I'm also interested in hearing how you were succesful in achieving this.

Thanks,

Dog.

[jasreeve17]

I was in the same situation as you several years ago, then I gave up.

Now, if anyone speaks to me in a language other than English I say "I don't understand" and look at them as if they are uneducated. It's not really much of a solution though.

I wouldn't bother, but you could just keep trying, in sentences. Stuff like your - noodles in the morning and other suff, whaterver in the afternoon. Listen to and speak with the locals as often as possible, in sentences...

Or just give up. It works well.

[DavidHouston]

Dog,

I empathize . I have been studying and speaking Thai for many years and still have difficulty with tones, as well as vowels and consonants. I cannot hear the difference between “Doh Dek” and “Toh Tau” or between “Boh Bai Mai” and “Poh Pla.” I have to memorize the sounds and where they are appropriate, like a color-blind man learning how the traffic lights are positioned. Some of the differences in vowels still elude me and I have been at it for a lot longer than you have. In addition, depending on where you live, Thai has regional differences in tones and sounds. If you live outside of Bangkok, getting correct Central Thai is an additional burden.

Here are some suggestions. First, there is the old saw, “there are no bad students, only bad teachers.” If you are learning the language casually, with out the aid of a real teacher, then learning the language is very difficult. Some foreign native-English speakers, admittedly, are gifted and can pick up Thai casually; I am not one of them. So, get a good, professional teacher who takes a Prussian approach: he or she will not move forward unless you master the sound or tone (or close enough to be understood, subject to future review). Second, follow what the teacher says or speaks slavishly. We have a tendency in English to intonate a rising sound in response to a teacher’s prompt, as if to say, “did I get that right?” Don’t do that. Say exactly what the teacher says. You will get the tone and the vowel and the consonant eventually.

Third, don’t use English transliteration in learning the language; Thai has its own tone system build in – you will learn the tones if you learn the reading and writing system. Fourth, learning language from a spouse is as difficult as trying to teach him or her how to drive. Better to preserve the marriage by getting a teacher outside the home.

Fifth, relax. Many will be better speakers than you; others will be worse. Few of us will be as excellent speakers of Thai as many of the leaders in these forums. Accept reality with good cheer and a “mai ben rai.” Relaxation will help you improve as well.

Those are my thoughts, and , remember the answer given by the cabbie to the aspiring musician when he is asked how to get to Carnegie Hall (or Albert Hall), “Practice, practice, practice.”

I wish you the best of luck.

[bdevaux]

Hi Dog,

Without getting competitive, I could suck even more than you. I'm a Unity Thai Language School dropout because of my inability to master the tones.

But, I'm determined. So, I'm taking private lessons with a patient and talented teacher. I haven't mastered them yet but I feel like I've made significant progress during the six sessions we've had together. If you're interested, she has an ad in the Commercial Ads sub-forum as khroojee.

Good luck; if you find the magic solution, please share.

Bill

[donna]

i think the best thing to do when learning thai is to sound like you are taking the piss when you repeat something that the thai person has told you. it may seem rude, but its the only way to get the tones. if they say it nasally, then you say it nasally.

many sounds come from the throat, and not any deeper. learn about the 'glottal stop' and when to use it.

forget your own accent when speaking thai. thai can only be properly spoken with a thai accent. throwing your own in for good measure isnt going to make you understood. sometimes i take the mickey and throw in my australian accent when talking to friends, but it sounds completely silly.

hang in there. it will come to you.

[garro]

I have no gift for languages and learning Thai has been a long slow process for me but I have found the following to be helpful-

- make a small index card with all the tone rules printed on it and keep it handy

- get the best dictionary you can afford and look up each new word and make sure you can work out its tone and why it is this tone (use index card)

- listen to different types of Thai media (TV, music, radio & podcasts)

- immitate characters on the TV

- listen out for tones

- study every day - I try to do at least an hour - practice the other 13 waking hours

- realise that it will take time and that it is normal to feel discouraged

Edited July 27, 2007 by garro

[mangkorn]

I was in the same situation as you several years ago, then I gave up.

Now, if anyone speaks to me in a language other than English I say "I don't understand" and look at them as if they are uneducated. It's not really much of a solution though.

I wouldn't bother, but you could just keep trying, in sentences. Stuff like your - noodles in the morning and other suff, whaterver in the afternoon. Listen to and speak with the locals as often as possible, in sentences...

Or just give up. It works well.

What an astonishing bit of "advice" to spew out on a language-learning forum.

Thank you for playing our game.

[jimmym40]

I don't want to make myself look like a dummy - well here goes. Don't feel bad. I've been coming to Thailand since the 1970s. Married a thai lady. And still don't know much more thai than I did back then.

It's because I'm TONE DEAF. Even back as a teen ager I wanted to play the guitar - no way. I could not tune it.

So, don't feel bad, it's a very tough language to master, some people are jus a "natural" at picking it up.

[garro]

Sorry Jimmy but there are plenty of Thai people who can't tune a guitar either and still speak Thai. I would go on to say that not many Farang who speak Thai are good karaoke singers. I have heard people give the excuse before, 'I'm tone deaf' but I believe that it is just an excuse. Learning Thai is hard work, like learning the guitar, but I think everyone can do it if they apply enough effort.

BTW Jimmy, there is no need to feel like a dummy because you haven't learnt Thai or play the guitar.

Edited July 28, 2007 by garro

[southerndog]

Hey guys, thanx for the replies. I am working very hard. I listen to CD's before bed with the tones. I've even recorded my wife saying words in five different tones, and have my ipod play them randomly so I can guess which is which.

i have also hired a great tutor. Her speech is very clear, and she is very patient with me. I study some every day. Probably around an hour or more.

I have learned the alphabet and know the rules as they apply to tones.

I just hope that with all this effort, that it pays off at some point.

Thx for the replies so far, they're appreciated.

[garro]

One more suggestion. I think many of us make the mistake of thinking that a word can have different tones to change its meaning. In my opinion it is much better to treat them as different words completely

Edited July 28, 2007 by garro

[CSS]

One more suggestion. I think many of us make the mistake of thinking that a word can have different tones to change its meaning. In my opinion it is much better to treat them as different words completely

I agree.

[sigmondfreed]

Thanks for your original posting...it helps to know there are fellow frustrated learners out there and that I am not the only one who feels 'Thai-language challanged'.

I agree with many of the comments made and wanted to add my own experiences/frustrations/justifications.

I have visited Thailand for over ten years now and been here steadily for almost three years now while my farang wife attends a local university (taught in English...she doesn't speak Thai either).

At first I was gungh-ho to learn another language. I had had moderate success at learning some Russian and a good start on Spanish, so I did not think I was a language problem-learner...until I tried Thai!

I started with an Intensive Thai course...and soon was the worst student in the class. I struggled to the end, but managed to finish and learned alot (for me). My suspicion was correct that I was a poor student when my teacher (ashan??--I think that's right) said to me, "Oh, Kuhn Kit, I'm so sorry you are baddest student of class. My apology"...so it wasn't just my perception.

My justification was that I struggle with a physical defecit which precludes me from being able to handwrite, or type with any speed (so no note taking, which sucked) along which my problem makes my prononciation difficult to understand due to muscular coordination hardships. I tried the recorder routine only to get several hours of what sounds like a poor copy of Charlie Brown's teacher over the loudspeaker interrupted by the occassional loud belch or paper shuffle...so recording didn't help much.

Afterward, my wife and I hired an in-home tutor (due to my physical difficulty ambulating, as well) along with some other Thai-wanna-be speakers which was a mistake because the language sessions usually degenerated (or is it evolved?) into swapping English prononciation for Thai's. Let's just say the signal to noise ratio was unsatisfactory for my needs.

So what has worked for me? Well, three years later, I'm still struggling. For a period I gave up completely and went back to playing Texas Hold'em on Yahoo, then, returned to studying on my own, practicing what I can hear and understand from my Thai friends, none of whom seemed eager to really teach me much. When I asked my closest Thai friend why this might be she surprised me by her answer that, according to her, some native speakers actually are hesitant to teach Thai because, in her words, having a farang who understands what is being said around them takes away Thais' abilities to 'gossip them' (her words, not mine). Similarly to what I was told happens with some older Japanese whoe are uncomfortable with a gai-jin speaking fluent Japanese...it just seems too strange for their world-view.

Lastly, what has really helped me the most is going back through the 'Thai for the Beginner' type books and, with the assistance of my dictionary and voice-typing program, translate word-for-word what is being said in Thai. Maybe I am too literal of a person, but it only confused me more to read that 'Khun Tanaka bpen kon arrai' was translated as 'What nationality is Mrs. Tanaka?' when, actually, you are literally saying, 'honorific (m/f) (last-name) Tanaka is nationality what'.

For me, knowing the meaning and order of the words is less confusing. One instructor strongly advised against this, saying I should learn the phrases as a group, but that just doesn't work for me. Doing this helped me with the memorization of which Thai words for which English words, but now I struggle trying to figure out if or remember if the word for snack is a seperate, unique thai word or something like 'little meal' or 'small eating' or some such combo.

So now, I have 'relaxed into it', as advised and practice phrases I keep saying over and over to myself until I get a chance to insert them into some aspect of conversation. Now, I figure the worst that can happen is I become so old that I lose words due to senility faster than I can learn them, and, if that is the case, mai bpen rai! (or as I translate it, 'don't worry, be happy').

[DurianChips]

Lastly, what has really helped me the most is going back through the 'Thai for the Beginner' type books and, with the assistance of my dictionary and voice-typing program, translate word-for-word what is being said in Thai. Maybe I am too literal of a person, but it only confused me more to read that 'Khun Tanaka bpen kon arrai' was translated as 'What nationality is Mrs. Tanaka?' when, actually, you are literally saying, 'honorific (m/f) (last-name) Tanaka is nationality what'.

For me, knowing the meaning and order of the words is less confusing. One instructor strongly advised against this, saying I should learn the phrases as a group, but that just doesn't work for me. Doing this helped me with the memorization of which Thai words for which English words, but now I struggle trying to figure out if or remember if the word for snack is a seperate, unique thai word or something like 'little meal' or 'small eating' or some such combo.

I too have struggled quite a bit learning the Thai language. I'm not sure I would describe those sentences as having different literal meanings though. Sure, the word order is different, but that's because the grammar is different. The sentences have the same literal meaning. Perhaps a little formal instruction in the grammar would help you out; there are books specifically on this subject available. I've never understood why so many introductory Thai books cover alphabet, tones, vocabulary, common phrases, but almost no formal instruction on Thai grammar, especially when the grammar is so different from English grammar that word-for-word translations often just look like chaos on a page.

[thai_narak]

i always try to learn languages naturally meaning i try to grow with it. as of now, i would think of myself like i'm a 10 year old kid (10 years in thailand) but can only speak as a 6 six years old perhaps i'm getting older to learn faster. having said that, all my tones are right but my vocabulary is poor. i learned tones by listening to friends and try to speak the same way, i watch thai lakorn, news, etc. and just recently to improve by voca i started learning how to read and write (like a 6 yrs old). it makes all sense to me now learning to read what i can speak. i read everything that i find interesting and instead of reading "the nation" i go to "thairath" now. reading has also improved that way i speak the words (more clearly now). it's amazing...

[trader1]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Improving-Your-Tha...8954&sr=1-5

has anyone tried this cd course. Looks a bit basic....

[AlexLah]

Long time ago I found a site that displayed the tones recorded from native speakers.

I dunno what kind of software they used but after seeing the recorded and processed images of the tones it was suddenly a lot more clear to me.

It also had a section where you could do some kind of test where after you heard a word you had to select which tone it was.

After seeing the graphic display of the tones some practice and doing the test I was able to score 100%

I tried finding it again but no result maybe someone here knows the url?

The site allowed you to choose from more then 50 different laguages to study and most of them had sound files for words and phrases.

It was something like travel language bla bla but after googling it I could not find it back.

I also still have to start my second try to master the speech and writing.

As another poster said and I agree with him that you not learn the language by remebering phrases and their meaning.

You need to understand every single word in order to learn the sentence structure.

I sometimes joke with the people from my office when there is a discussion and things are not clear.

Then I tell them I fully understand they they have some problems understanding eachother due to the Thai language structure, it does not make sense to me at all I tell them then.

Anyway anyone can learn anything, it is just how much time you want to spend learning something.

Cheers all!

Alex

[garro]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Improving-Your-Tha...8954&sr=1-5

has anyone tried this cd course. Looks a bit basic....

I used this book in the past for learning the tones and found it helpful at the time. It was one of a variety of resources which I used to learn. The book is small but if you are strict and learn it completely I am sure it will improve your tones over time. If you can read Thai I would recommend studying the tone rules also while studying this book.

[AlexLah]

Ok found something for ya.

Not the one I found in the past but not too bad either.

Give it a try!

http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Thai/selfassess...e1/tones_FS.htm

http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/may/Thai.html#stru

[DurianChips]

Ok found something for ya.

Not the one I found in the past but not too bad either.

Give it a try!

http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Thai/selfassess...e1/tones_FS.htm

http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/may/Thai.html#stru

The Northern Illinois (niu) page contains a lot of resources, and I've used it a lot. They have Manee and friends, books 1 and 2, as well as Mary Haas' Thai Reader, and additional materials. Some of their pages require non-standard fonts though, in order to view them. They have the fonts available, you just need to download and install them.

[Pescator]

I am completely tonedeaf, but that hasn`t stopped me from learning the tones.

My advice would be to start off with one syllable words containing long vowels, babystepping

With long vowels it is much easier to determine what tone you actually hear.

Rising tone on a long vowel in a one syllable word should be quite easy to determine Khaa = leg

Same with falling tone Khaa = kill or price (although not spelt the same)

There is no way you can mistake those 2 different tones IMO, especially if they are pronounced right after one another.

Now move on to the slightly more difficult ones, have a thai speaker pronounce them after one another.

Khaa low tone = galangal

Khaa high tone = to trade

khaa level/mid tone = ? beats me, regardless we are talking about tones here.

If you are unable to distinguish between the various tones when using this approach, I am afraid there is little hope for you

But then again I am rather sure that you will be.

This wont bring you that much further, just build your confidence to a point that you will realize, that YES I CAN hear the difference and tell which one is what in this particular situation anyway.

We all use intonations also in european languages, particularly in words like in english Oh, Really, Well etc. and I am sure that you are able to tell the difference here, so why not in thai ?

Cheers

Michael

[EaglesGift]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Improving-Your-Tha...8954&sr=1-5

has anyone tried this cd course. Looks a bit basic....

I bought this CD a while ago and whilst I would say it was useful, her American husband is on it sporadically too which I found quite annoying.

(Sorry, I can't work out how to use the quote function!)

Edited August 1, 2007 by EaglesGift

[meadish_sweetball]

To quote a post, just click on the "Reply" button (do NOT click on the "quote" button to make it red first, as that will remove the quote). Do not change anything in the pre-arranged quote. If you want to call attention to a particular part, just select (highlight) that part and click on a different colour or make it bold.

To create your own quotes, you need a start tag and an end tag. The start tag looks like this: [ quote ] and the end tag like this [ / quote ] (but erase all spaces). All start tags need an end tag, otherwise the system will indicate an error, or the quotes will show up wrong.

When quoting somebody who has already quoted somebody else, think about whether it makes sense to quote the same thing again or not. If not necessary, than edit it out for an easier read and shorter loading times in the forum (everyone does not use Thaivisa on a broadband connection).

[whatever_works]

I've been trying for some time now, and the tones really aren't coming to me... Whether it be speaking, or listening.

I'm interested in hearing some stories perhaps of people who struggled but eventually got the tones down. I'm also interested in hearing how you were succesful in achieving this.

Thanks,

Dog.

I have been told that even Thai children when they first start speaking often strugle with the tones.

The very best Thai language lesson I ever had came from an expat who owned a beer-bar on Samui.

This only works impromptu, if you allow yourself to stop and think about it, it won't work.

He coached the bartender to say a phrase in Thai that was not simple, he then told me that I should close my eyes and

listen carefully as the bartender would sing a bit of a song and that as soon as he completed the stanza that I should repeat it immediatley without hesitation. Wow !! I amazed myself. It seems that when we listen as we would to a song to sing, we use different parts of our brain and it would seem that that part is far more suited.

You really should work through all the lessons, however, for your homework assignment for the next week you will listen to all four lines 3x, then you will repeat with the teacher another 10 repetitions of each line of this page.

Should take you about 20 min a day, every morning for a week with your coffee.

But completley undistracted, completley absolutely focused on listening to the teachers voice.

If you start to feel a little stronger about it after the first week, start incorporating some of the other consonants listed at the top of the page.Your homework assignment

Edited August 1, 2007 by whatever_works

[garro]

It also sometimes helps if you can see the tones;

I have borrowed this from a google search of images

Edited August 1, 2007 by garro

[meadish_sweetball]

Yes - the names of the tones can be confusing as you can see from the graph. As I wrote earlier on the same subject, they could be called whatever, the important thing is that you remember, can distinguish (hear) and produce (speak) the pitch curves separately from each other.

Excellent advice to start by listening to words with long vowel sounds in isolation, as the tones will be much more pronounced in words with long vowels.

At first I had problems distinguishing the falling and the high tone from each other. As you can see from the diagram garro posted, this is not so strange, since the falling tone actually starts at a very high pitch, and briefly strives upward first, before it falls. The high tone is also not a flat high tone, but actually rises gradually.

Along the same lines, the rising tone does not start at one point and then rise from there - rather it dips downwards quite low first, before gathering speed to rise...

Another thing that is not visible from the diagram is that the low tone (when pronounced in isolation on a single word - you will typically not hear the same thing in rapid speech as the tones tend to get blurred out) goes all the way down in your throat (tension of the throat muscles), and sounds a bit like dry old branch creaking in the wind.

Try to listen very hard for the things that distinguishes each tone from the others, contrast one against the other, and find descriptions that work for yourself. They do not have to make perfect sense as long as they are good mnemonics.

[mangkorn]

Edit > posted, but then decided to rethink it through. Pardon.

Edited August 1, 2007 by mangkorn

[mangkorn]

Sorry 'bout that... I was thinking that sometimes the mid tone can sound like a high tone to some farangs (or at least to this farang). When some people say, loudly and in a surprised or perturbed way, "a-rai" - that often does sound very high-toned. Could it be because some of us don't normally speak in the mid tone in Western languages that the Thai middle tone may sound high sometimes? Perhaps the key to distinguishing them is that the high tone actually does rise a bit from its starting point?

Another thing to consider, perhaps, is that different voices have different pitches, and so the tones are relative between different speakers? It seems one must be attuned to the rhythm and pitch of each particular voice in order to get the full flow of their own tones.

Hmm...does that make any sense?

[whatever_works]

Sorry 'bout that... I was thinking that sometimes the mid tone can sound like a high tone to some farangs (or at least to this farang). When some people say, loudly and in a surprised or perturbed way, "a-rai" - that often does sound very high-toned. Could it be because some of us don't normally speak in the mid tone in Western languages that the Thai middle tone may sound high sometimes? Perhaps the key to distinguishing them is that the high tone actually does rise a bit from its starting point?

Another thing to consider, perhaps, is that different voices have different pitches, and so the tones are relative between different speakers? It seems one must be attuned to the rhythm and pitch of each particular voice in order to get the full flow of their own tones.

Hmm...does that make any sense?

It makes sense but I don't think it needs to be a "serious" concern.

Wherever a persons natural voice sits higher/or lower, it is the fluctuation in pitch that caries meaning.

All of us have already very developed language skills in one language or another. No matter what the level of a persons

natural neutral (flat ) tone, you would still notice if that asked a question in English right ?

Or thats my thoughts anyways.

[mangkorn]

I've found that for practice with tones as well as pronunciation in general, tongue-twisters are very useful. Really helps you get your mouth around long, complicated phrases.

Thai language has scads of great tongue twisters, from the ones the children learn, all the way up to the ones that can have double-entendres if misspoken. Good fun, all of them.