Cultural Question - Letting Thais Pay The Bill?

[fallingoffthemap]

I've made friends with my neighbors, a Thai couple who are just a few years older than me. They have cooked dinner for me the past two days, and today, they took me out to lunch, and dinner, and want to take me out again tomorrow. When we go around town together, they buy me snacks and drinks before I even have a chance to say no.

It's my understanding that in Thai culture, the eldest pays, but I feel very awkward letting them pay for everything, since they are all of about 4 years older than me. I offered twice, and, my money refused both times, left it at that, as I didn't know what else to do. Their English is about as good as my Thai, which is to say, pretty minimal.

I do feel awkward about it though. In my part of "Falangland" one offers or insists on paying the bill at least occasionally if the bill is not split. Do I insist? Do I secretly pay for lunch tomorrow while everyone is still eating? Or do I graciously accept and let them pay?

I don't know too much about their financial status, but they can't be too bad off, as they rented an SUV for a few days recently to tote around visiting family. Then again, I know they pay the same 2000 B/month rent that I do, so they aren't exactly living large either.

Anyone who's been here longer have any suggestions as to what the "proper" or polite thing to do is?

[gburns57au]

maybe you could cook for them sometimes....or you could ask them out, then you can say to them "you are my guests, it is my bill"

[Donnyboy]

I've made friends with my neighbors, a Thai couple who are just a few years older than me. They have cooked dinner for me the past two days, and today, they took me out to lunch, and dinner, and want to take me out again tomorrow. When we go around town together, they buy me snacks and drinks before I even have a chance to say no.

It's my understanding that in Thai culture, the eldest pays, but I feel very awkward letting them pay for everything, since they are all of about 4 years older than me. I offered twice, and, my money refused both times, left it at that, as I didn't know what else to do. Their English is about as good as my Thai, which is to say, pretty minimal.

I do feel awkward about it though. In my part of "Falangland" one offers or insists on paying the bill at least occasionally if the bill is not split. Do I insist? Do I secretly pay for lunch tomorrow while everyone is still eating? Or do I graciously accept and let them pay?

I don't know too much about their financial status, but they can't be too bad off, as they rented an SUV for a few days recently to tote around visiting family. Then again, I know they pay the same 2000 B/month rent that I do, so they aren't exactly living large either.

Anyone who's been here longer have any suggestions as to what the "proper" or polite thing to do is?

I would insist on paying next outing by saying "Im feeling awkward that you pay for lunch all the time, please allow me to pay this time as this will make me feel better" and hand over the money to the cashier without hestitating.

[endure]

maybe you could cook for them sometimes....or you could ask them out, then you can say to them "you are my guests, it is my bill"

Bingo! The inviter pays...

[meemiathai]

I've made friends with my neighbors, a Thai couple who are just a few years older than me. They have cooked dinner for me the past two days, and today, they took me out to lunch, and dinner, and want to take me out again tomorrow. When we go around town together, they buy me snacks and drinks before I even have a chance to say no.

It's my understanding that in Thai culture, the eldest pays, but I feel very awkward letting them pay for everything, since they are all of about 4 years older than me. I offered twice, and, my money refused both times, left it at that, as I didn't know what else to do. Their English is about as good as my Thai, which is to say, pretty minimal.

I do feel awkward about it though. In my part of "Falangland" one offers or insists on paying the bill at least occasionally if the bill is not split. Do I insist? Do I secretly pay for lunch tomorrow while everyone is still eating? Or do I graciously accept and let them pay?

I don't know too much about their financial status, but they can't be too bad off, as they rented an SUV for a few days recently to tote around visiting family. Then again, I know they pay the same 2000 B/month rent that I do, so they aren't exactly living large either.

Anyone who's been here longer have any suggestions as to what the "proper" or polite thing to do is?

"secretly pay for lunch tomorrow while everyone is still eating" is what I will do.

[maipleur]

Buy them a car, to show your appreciation. or, just make sure they keep paying...... who knows, JUST SAY NO (-:

[gburns57au]

The last two comments are tongue in cheek

one will lose you friends

the other will result in the bill being double paid.

[jasreeve17]

Tomorrow make sure that you invite them out for next weekend. Choose a nice place and pay. Easy. Endure was on the money.

[Norrad]

When you are with them, randomly pay for things. Stop at any store and buy a bag full of treats to share with everyone. Thai's have a concept of "Nahm Jai" and they do not expect you to pay for things but it is good to reciprocate in some way. No matter how small your gift, they will just be happy that you are thinking of them.

[pumpuiman]

It has been my experience that whoever proposes the invitation pays.

[Tinkelbell]

If I invite someone to the restaurant, I always manage to pull my waiter or the manager to the side and ask them not to present the tab at the table. I'll wait untill every finished their desert, then I would make myself excuse going to the washroom, first, stop at the cashier counter and pay the tab before heading to the back room.

Warning! If you have a gettother of a large group of people, never let them know that you're going to pick up the tab. There are two kinds; the bad one is going order expensive dishes and serveral rounds of drinks ( Thai has this expression : Lom--tub), and the good one would order cheap dish.

[Wizzard of Oz]

I've made friends with my neighbors, a Thai couple who are just a few years older than me. They have cooked dinner for me the past two days, and today, they took me out to lunch, and dinner, and want to take me out again tomorrow. When we go around town together, they buy me snacks and drinks before I even have a chance to say no.

It's my understanding that in Thai culture, the eldest pays, but I feel very awkward letting them pay for everything, since they are all of about 4 years older than me. I offered twice, and, my money refused both times, left it at that, as I didn't know what else to do. Their English is about as good as my Thai, which is to say, pretty minimal.

I do feel awkward about it though. In my part of "Falangland" one offers or insists on paying the bill at least occasionally if the bill is not split. Do I insist? Do I secretly pay for lunch tomorrow while everyone is still eating? Or do I graciously accept and let them pay?

I don't know too much about their financial status, but they can't be too bad off, as they rented an SUV for a few days recently to tote around visiting family. Then again, I know they pay the same 2000 B/month rent that I do, so they aren't exactly living large either.

Anyone who's been here longer have any suggestions as to what the "proper" or polite thing to do is?

I was in the same situation. I find that inviting them for a particular occasion like a dinner and saying when inviting that you want to treat them is fine. And don't forget, that since they bring you lots of snacks and stuff, buying a present every few times you meet up is very thai. Some fruit like a bunch of apples, or something not necessarily expensive, but just to so they know you spent some time actually going and getting something. A yellow polo shirt with the kings emblem thingy was one of the gifts I got, so maybe you could pick up one for each of them and give it to them.

Many Thai people are awesome.

[fallingoffthemap]

When you are with them, randomly pay for things. Stop at any store and buy a bag full of treats to share with everyone. Thai's have a concept of "Nahm Jai" and they do not expect you to pay for things but it is good to reciprocate in some way. No matter how small your gift, they will just be happy that you are thinking of them.

Good advice - thanks! This explains why my neighbor is always bringing me juice and mangosteen in the morning when I am barely out of bed....

Will do.

[fallingoffthemap]

I was in the same situation. I find that inviting them for a particular occasion like a dinner and saying when inviting that you want to treat them is fine. And don't forget, that since they bring you lots of snacks and stuff, buying a present every few times you meet up is very thai. Some fruit like a bunch of apples, or something not necessarily expensive, but just to so they know you spent some time actually going and getting something. A yellow polo shirt with the kings emblem thingy was one of the gifts I got, so maybe you could pick up one for each of them and give it to them.

Many Thai people are awesome.

Thanks Whizz (heheh) and others - will take your advice. I cooked a simple meal for them once, but she likes to teach me how to cook Thai dishes, but I will make sure to start bringing little gifts and try to take them out.

So then, is it ever possible for Thais to have too many yellow polo shirts?

[pinglady]

When I first arrived in Thailand, I went out with a certain group of friends twice every week. I regarded it as a major break-through when they finally let me pay my share... after about a year and a half.

At the moment they regard you as special, and want to take care of you. It makes them feel good to treat you so well! I would just go with the flow for the time being, but of course, don't forget to reciprocate in other ways, eg bringing gifts of food, showing up when they need a foreigner etc. Say thank you, and make a token attempt to pay, but don't do anything sneaky like pay behind their back! You will have plenty of other opportunities in this life to re-pay their generosity!

By the way, if you are really anxious to pay, you could always try having a birthday party - Thai people pay for everything on their birthdays. But then of course they'll just end up buying you lots of presents....

[kat]

I agree - just do things that show your thoughtfulness all the time. Once in awhile, throw a party or have a nice dinner where you treat everyone. I once treated my Thai assistant to her first Japanese meal in a Japanese restaurant. She would never be able to afford it on her salary, and it was my pleasure completly.

She then goes and buys me a simple but great Thai watch as a goodbye present. I was moved beyond belief.

*The dinner is especially nice when you offer something out of their usual venue or choice range.

Edited July 29, 2007 by kat

[dog412]

be aware of those that offer bananas but seek durian in return. only you can make that decision. in my experience, the locals usually have a reason for their effort. not all "smiles" are from the heart.

[Tinkelbell]

be aware of those that offer bananas but seek durian in return. only you can make that decision. in my experience, the locals usually have a reason for their effort. not all "smiles" are from the heart.

dog412,

You're a smart one.

Not the one that Thais call 'ngo-muan-kwai'.

[retirednavyman]

When I first arrived in Thailand, I went out with a certain group of friends twice every week. I regarded it as a major break-through when they finally let me pay my share... after about a year and a half.

At the moment they regard you as special, and want to take care of you. It makes them feel good to treat you so well! I would just go with the flow for the time being, but of course, don't forget to reciprocate in other ways, eg bringing gifts of food, showing up when they need a foreigner etc. Say thank you, and make a token attempt to pay, but don't do anything sneaky like pay behind their back! You will have plenty of other opportunities in this life to re-pay their generosity!

By the way, if you are really anxious to pay, you could always try having a birthday party - Thai people pay for everything on their birthdays. But then of course they'll just end up buying you lots of presents....

What a sweet response!

[sutnyod]

Hi,

yeah, I know this situation. And I used to foil everybody by 'going to the toilet' shortly after everyone had finished eating and picking up the bill. Somehow friends must have realized I am going to trick them, because now I am being followed 'to the toilet'. So the fight for paying the bill is just relocated ...

I think I will have to wait, too, before being able to pay.

PS: the toilet trick still works in all other SE-Asian countries. Thailand is the only one I have trouble with ;-)

[Kerryd]

If you are being invited out quite often, and your hosts are picking up the tab, it would be expected that you would return the favour by inviting them out and picking up the tab yourself once in awhile. Good opportunity to introduce your friends to places you may prefer to dine at as well (or just to check out new places). When I posted to Germany, there was a group of us that would go to a different restaurant every 2-3 weeks, and we would order different entrees and sample each others choices.

I to have to play the "shell" game with a couple of my Thai friends when it comes to adding "bins" to my cup or paying the tab at the end of the night. It's kind of hard to do with one friend though, as we are often in the club he manages and the staff listen to him more than they do to me (the customer isn't always right over here !).

We used to call it "going Dutch" when you went out with friends and everyone paid for their own tabs. Over here, I hear it's called "going American". The only time I've done that is when I've been out with farang friends (unless it's at a party I'm hosting of course).

[steveromagnino]

A major point here is equal financial standing and similar age.

If someone is MUCH older or MUCH richer, then it is still nice to make the effort to appear to want to pay; at this close in age and financial standing, then you should be attempting to actually pay some of the time. In particular, 2 of them, 1 of you is also a factor; if they are people of the 'nice variety' then they would probably feel bad making you pay so much when there is only one of you. (One possible solution is to invite me, as i like free food, and that would make them more likely to let you pay )

- bring along a bottle of their favourite booze and offer it up to share at dinner (nice wine, Johnnie Black, JD or even some proper spirits)

- invite them out to a place you like (and preferably one that you have ensured that they are likely to enjoy i.e. not excessively expensive as they may feel awkward even if you are paying for it and order nothing, and not too 'rot chart farang' - if they wanted to drink dishwater they can do that at home without it being in a restuarant for foreigners where food tastes like dishwater but you have to pay for the privelege) then make sure you pick up the tab -could be foreign food or anything - discretely do the bathroom thing

- make a point of at least offering to pay the entire bill; even if they don't let you, it is part of the manners to at least offer and not do the 'let me pay for what I ate' that is more insulting than just sitting there and not offering at all; at least in a small party if they have been paying before. Best is offer to pay it all; the bill goes back and forth; when finally they win and hold the bill and ready to pay; offer to split 50 50 at least and make it seem like even this would not make you happy, but is the unfortunate nature of compromise. No one believes it for a second but it is on par with the following lines:

'no you don't look fat in that'

'no, she isn't prettier than you'

'size doesn't matter'

'it's not you it's me'

'I just need some space right now'

'We can still be friends' (all lies, both parties know, but completely acceptable for the benefit of harmony)

- ring them and invite them to a concert or similar that you know they will enjoy (check this, just because it is Thai, it doesn't mean that they will enjoy say tickets to Thaitanium, Four Mod or Carabao - same as just because they are white, you might not enjoy Yoyo Ma plays Stravinsky, Pantera, Henry Rollins poetry) but pay the tickets yourself

- ring them from time to time to say hello

- if none of the above work, a small gift prior to dinner works wonders 'I was in UK, saw this bottle of jellied eel and I thought you might like to try it etc' - presentations is everything; nicely gift wrapped; don't expect it to be opened until after you leave. Maybe not jellied eel. Fancy chocolates, nice cake, that sort of thing

Many Thai people are generous and want to learn about people outside of Thailand, so don't feel like you aren't already providing something; they must enjoy your company otherwise they wouldn't keep asking you. However, some will be fishing for some favour in return later on; so best to ensure that the dinners are roughly even. I have not really encountered many of the fisherman, but a TON of the people who happily have insisted all my life on paying for everything for me. But I am special. This is not a spoon.

Like Kat says, you may be surprised re. generosity; and in an unrelated matter to that, a non Thai moving overseas gave me a bunch of books that have really opened my eyes to the world - funny how certain things can do so much for someone else. Thanks very much to that person. In a way, the generosity they show you, in theory you should show to people younger than you, picking up the tab for them. Such is the circle of life.

I've seen the lion king. I know stuff.

Edited July 31, 2007 by steveromagnino

[Tinkelbell]

Hi,

yeah, I know this situation. And I used to foil everybody by 'going to the toilet' shortly after everyone had finished eating and picking up the bill. Somehow friends must have realized I am going to trick them, because now I am being followed 'to the toilet'. So the fight for paying the bill is just relocated ...

I think I will have to wait, too, before being able to pay.

PS: the toilet trick still works in all other SE-Asian countries. Thailand is the only one I have trouble with ;-)

Hello 'sutnyod',

From your thread I'm certain you've been around SE-Asia for so long, at least you know what you're talking about. This practice has been embraced by educated Thais or at least middle class Thais.

I think you already know quite well about the Thai tradition; The elders suppose to pay for the meals. So in the scenario you invite the elder ( like you want to return their kindness), the waiter is certainly going to present the tab to elder. To eliminate the potential embarrassment to your invited guest, that's how 'the toilet trick' comes into work.

In the old days, the Thai hosts would leave the credit card (the moment he walked in) with the restaurant captain to close on the tab at the end of meals, but the credit cards fraud and i.d. thief fraud have been rampaged in latest years, so we play a little tiolet game now.

I hope the OP is intelligent enough to distinguish the expression used by the 'newbie', who is obviously arrogant and ignorant by suggesting the OP in this manner......"dont do behind their guest's back." . This particular 'newbie' just been in LOS less than two years and already established herself as an expert of Thai etiquettes.

[November Rain]

Hi,

yeah, I know this situation. And I used to foil everybody by 'going to the toilet' shortly after everyone had finished eating and picking up the bill. Somehow friends must have realized I am going to trick them, because now I am being followed 'to the toilet'. So the fight for paying the bill is just relocated ...

I think I will have to wait, too, before being able to pay.

PS: the toilet trick still works in all other SE-Asian countries. Thailand is the only one I have trouble with ;-)

Hello 'sutnyod',

From your thread I'm certain you've been around SE-Asia for so long, at least you know what you're talking about. This practice has been embraced by educated Thais or at least middle class Thais.

I think you already know quite well about the Thai tradition; The elders suppose to pay for the meals. So in the scenario you invite the elder ( like you want to return their kindness), the waiter is certainly going to present the tab to elder. To eliminate the potential embarrassment to your invited guest, that's how 'the toilet trick' comes into work.

In the old days, the Thai hosts would leave the credit card (the moment he walked in) with the restaurant captain to close on the tab at the end of meals, but the credit cards fraud and i.d. thief fraud have been rampaged in latest years, so we play a little tiolet game now.

I hope the OP is intelligent enough to distinguish the expression used by the 'newbie', who is obviously arrogant and ignorant by suggesting the OP in this manner......"dont do behind their guest's back." . This particular 'newbie' just been in LOS less than two years and already established herself as an expert of Thai etiquettes.

That's hardly fair, Tinkelbell. She made a very nice, friendly post & the advice she offered was obviously based on her experiences with her circle of friends. Maybe they have given her the impression that they would be offended if she paid behind their backs? I think it can also depend on the social status of your friends. I've got some fairly poor Thai friends who would be horrified if I pushed in as the "big, rich farang" (which I am definitely not!). They let me know when it's OK for me to pay or they want me to, but they also enjoy showing their generosity to me.

I'm sorry to say this, but any arrogance between the two posts in question (hers & yours) seems to come from the latter part of your post.

[Andrew Hicks]

When I first arrived in Thailand, I went out with a certain group of friends twice every week. I regarded it as a major break-through when they finally let me pay my share... after about a year and a half.

At the moment they regard you as special, and want to take care of you. It makes them feel good to treat you so well! I would just go with the flow for the time being, but of course, don't forget to reciprocate in other ways, eg bringing gifts of food, showing up when they need a foreigner etc. Say thank you, and make a token attempt to pay, but don't do anything sneaky like pay behind their back! You will have plenty of other opportunities in this life to re-pay their generosity!

By the way, if you are really anxious to pay, you could always try having a birthday party - Thai people pay for everything on their birthdays. But then of course they'll just end up buying you lots of presents....

Some good advice here for the man with the etiquette problem.

If the difficulty persists, can I suggest that one way to avoid it is to come and live in a village in Isaan. Then you might be posting a different question on Thaivisa.

Cynically,

Andrew Hicks

[Marcan]

Hi Andrew,

I'm leaving in BKK since many years and have many farang friends leaving in Isaan. It is true that each time we talk about the "relation" that I have with my Thai friends in BKK and the one that they have in Isaan isn't comparable.

Cheers!

[Tinkelbell]

Hi,

yeah, I know this situation. And I used to foil everybody by 'going to the toilet' shortly after everyone had finished eating and picking up the bill. Somehow friends must have realized I am going to trick them, because now I am being followed 'to the toilet'. So the fight for paying the bill is just relocated ...

I think I will have to wait, too, before being able to pay.

PS: the toilet trick still works in all other SE-Asian countries. Thailand is the only one I have trouble with ;-)

Hello 'sutnyod',

From your thread I'm certain you've been around SE-Asia for so long, at least you know what you're talking about. This practice has been embraced by educated Thais or at least middle class Thais.

I think you already know quite well about the Thai tradition; The elders suppose to pay for the meals. So in the scenario you invite the elder ( like you want to return their kindness), the waiter is certainly going to present the tab to elder. To eliminate the potential embarrassment to your invited guest, that's how 'the toilet trick' comes into work.

In the old days, the Thai hosts would leave the credit card (the moment he walked in) with the restaurant captain to close on the tab at the end of meals, but the credit cards fraud and i.d. thief fraud have been rampaged in latest years, so we play a little tiolet game now.

I hope the OP is intelligent enough to distinguish the expression used by the 'newbie', who is obviously arrogant and ignorant by suggesting the OP in this manner......"dont do behind their guest's back." . This particular 'newbie' just been in LOS less than two years and already established herself as an expert of Thai etiquettes.

That's hardly fair, Tinkelbell. She made a very nice, friendly post & the advice she offered was obviously based on her experiences with her circle of friends. Maybe they have given her the impression that they would be offended if she paid behind their backs? I think it can also depend on the social status of your friends. I've got some fairly poor Thai friends who would be horrified if I pushed in as the "big, rich farang" (which I am definitely not!). They let me know when it's OK for me to pay or they want me to, but they also enjoy showing their generosity to me.

I'm sorry to say this, but any arrogance between the two posts in question (hers & yours) seems to come from the latter part of your post.

Hi NR,

As I see it, anyone is free to give any comment as they wish as long as they don't misinterpretation.

But if one's crossing the line and tried to discredit somebodyelse post, by giving illed advise like....." don't do sneaky like paying behind their back..." As a Thai (born and raised in BK), I couldn't stand on the sideline and let the OP picks up the unfitted social etiquette.

I do not wish to see this debate escolates into "she said, I said".

Let the OP decides, either takes the advice from a native or from a newly expat at his own free will. One thing for sure the OP is going to have plenty encounters in this kind of situation. Remember! When in Rome, do as ..... You'll win their hearts and be friended forever. Good luck !

[fallingoffthemap]

"Some good advice here for the man with the etiquette problem."

"at his own free will."

Why does everyone assume I (the OP) am a man?