Seeking Advice From Experienced Expat Regarding A Thai-thai Ownership Problem

[Rempler]

Dear gentlemen,

may I dare to ask for the advice of (Isaarn- ?) experienced expats on the following problem.

Of, course, I am NOT talking about LEGAL advice, but rather about your HUMAN SENSES judgements.

- In 1982 the grandfather of my wife borrowed 20.000 bath from "X", a rich guy from the same (Isaarn) village.

As usual, the donor "X" demanded the 15 Rai of grandfather's land as a security ! Grandfather had never been able to make use of the land, as it was not at all usable for rice farming, so the deal was accepted, - without any contract or witnesses.

- Grandfather died 1993, leaving 3 legal heirs ( A] ==> my mother in law, B] ==> her brother's daughter and C] ==> her sister's son).

Out of those three only my mother-in-law had been living on the then bonded territory.

My mother-in-law herself was treated in another hospital in that month, when her father died. Upon her return, the donor "X" said: "You cannot stay on this land any more, unless you pay back those ==> 50.000 (!!!!) Bath.

Of course, she has not been able to do so at that time, as she had merely enough money to buy food for her children.

So, due to the mental and physical force applied by rich guy "X", my mother-in-law had to leave and move to another place, while the two other heirs - niece B] and nephew C] - already had been been living elsewhere before.

- Over many years all three heirs have saved money, in order to pay the loan back and, in return, get their land back, [WHICH IS LOCATED DIRECTLY BESIDES one of the most used roads between UBON and KORAT and due to this prime location is pretty valuable by today; [rough guess deduced from the prices of the neighbouring land, leads me to about 6.2 mio THB for those 15 Rai, but it might be much less.]

Earlier this year, the three felt close to being ready for paying back the loan plus an interest add-on. When the donor heard this, he tried to create new facts by quickly making 2 dozens of his employees ("slaves") build a barn on exactly that territory.

- So the three heirs went into the repayment-dialogue with him, and learned, that NOW the donor demands 600.000 Bath !!! otherwise the land would be in his ownership forever, - and they would get nothing in return.

- The three of them went to the boss of the small village, who recommended to involve a lawyer, as he didn't have to power to help.

They took 10.000 Bath out of their savings, and one of the heirs - nephew C] - went to a lawyer in the capital of the region.

.... Well, at least, he had told the other two, that he went there and handed over that money !!! But they never learned the name of the lawyer or his adress, or any feedback from there.

They only sensed, that - nephew C] - had made a "private deal" with the donor, after which - nephew C] - went to the district court, and pretended that he was the only living heir of the grandfather (!!!) and that he, finally, wanted to sell the land to the donor "X".

Surprisingly, the court researched and found only by accident ((a low level employee of that court knew the family)) that the statement of the "sole heir" was untrue.

Last week - A] (my mother-in-law] and her niece B] learned about it and went to the local administration of the amphuur, where they were told: "We can work on this case, but that might take YEARS until it is finally decided, so you better invest in a lawyer and go to court, or - even better seek a deal with "X" on a private basis .... ".

The actual situation is like this:

+ The donor "X" (who has a undisputed reputation as a "master of corruption") offers them 50.000 Bath per person to abstain from that land, and sign a corresponding document at the court.

+ Nephew C is unavailable for any talks about the case or about "his lawyer" and the 10.000 Bt ...

+ My mother-in-law and niece B] offered "X" to abstain for the sum of 200.000 Bath per person.

+ The boss of the village clearly mentioned, that my mother-in-law takes the risk to "... die overnight ..." if she resists to accept the "50.000 per person" Bt-offer, or even dares to involve another competent lawyer.

I am currently in Europe and cannot interfere, but my mother-in-law, is asking for my opinion, what to do, and in this case I have no idea.

* Take it to the court, bearing the risk of being seriously attacked by "X's" rough employees ?

or

* Take the 50.000 Bath and forget up about the loss of maybe 1 or 2 mio Bath ?

P.s.: There was another family in the same village, who, after 2 years of fighting, WON at the court against the same guy in an identical situation, but that was a LARGE family with many strong men of various ages ....and with some guns in the house, while my ma is staying alone in Isaan with just the two grandchildren, she is taking care of.

P.p.s.: My current working hypothesis is, to recommend her to take the 50.000 and give her another 150.000 from my funds, as she had NEVER asked for any money from me.

P.p.p.s.: I am living together with my Thai wife since about 6 years, - mostly in Europe. We are married since 4 years and we will move to Thailand (Chumphon, - i.e. far away from Isaarn) for good, after our first baby will be born in the upcoming December.

Your honest opinion in this case would be very welcome.

Or the adress of a trustable real-estate-lawyer in the UBON, Buriram, Surin -region.

Thanks in advance

J.R.R.

Edited July 30, 2007 by Rempler

[Heng]

If there was never any contract, then the land never changed hands. Shouldn't be an issue at all (legally, anyway). Just have the legal heir go down to the land department and start the procedure for having a chanote/title deed reissued. Just holding onto someone else's land deed doesn't mean anything if no transfer of ownership ever took place.

[jaidam]

Very unfortunate story. As Heng said, the land is still titled in your families name(hence the aggresion).

In my experience dealing with the local mafia, the local police took very good care of it without asking for any compensation. The police asked me to call them when the aggresors were on our land, and then came to meet them with guns and said if they return here they will be put in prison in Bkk. Also took all of us to the OBT office and made a contract signed by all present that acknowleged the end of the problem. We have not had a run in in 4 years now with the thugs, although we have to drive past them every day. If the police hadn't intervened I would have had no choice but to give the land up.

Its a terrible situation though, who want to live with w*****s like that around if it isn't settled propelrly.

Good luck.

[lannarebirth]

In three separate situations I have witnessed (two involving the same instigator) courts have upheld the rights of the owners and ruled aginst the claims of "land raiders". It requires a good attorney and some time, but if the facts are as you present, your family should prevail. As others have said, if no chanote was signed over, in fact no transaction took place and you would just apply for new title.

Even if this guy holds the paper legally and could justify the charges up to 600,000 (which I agree is outlandish), why would you let the land get away, seeing as how you believe it's worth 10 times that amount? Why not buy it yourseld through your wife by retiring the debt (If it's legitimate).

[jasreeve17]

If there was never any contract, then the land never changed hands. Shouldn't be an issue at all (legally, anyway). Just have the legal heir go down to the land department and start the procedure for having a chanote/title deed reissued. Just holding onto someone else's land deed doesn't mean anything if no transfer of ownership ever took place.

Simple and true.

Even if any sneaky "deals" were done at any time by any party they mean nothing once the land offices gets involved. They do their job by the letter of the law (OK, you have to pay them tea money to do it, but...). One person can not change the deed by themself if multiple people are entered on the deed.

Your family can get a good lawyer in Bangkok free. It is best to pay if you have enough funds and leave the free service to the really needy...

I'd suggest you go this route before going to court as regional judges can be awful. You need a lawyer to clearly put your case.

Heng is right that there probably isn't any case to go to court to defend / argue.

I'd suggest going to the land office and getting your land cut up equally for each family member. This action will clarify everything and get the deed documents in a nice, clarified and up to date format. It avoids future problems too.

Of course pay the guy back the money owed and a bit extra to allow for inflation, loan rate etc - it's only fair. Maybe 150k? Heng would know better than I.

Good luck.

p.s. Do not give the land away out of fear! It is the families heritage. The police and courts will help you if you are worried about violence.

[Rempler]

Dear all,

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR ENCOURAGING AND VERY HELPFUL REPLIES !

We phoned my mother-in-law three times yesterday and tried to explain the clarification, which we have received by your posts.

The only thing, that kept her from complete relief was a fact, which I had not known until yesterday's phonecalls.

I had mentioned, that the three heirs had decided to look for the help of a lawyer some time ago ===>

- ... the boss of the small village recommended to involve a lawyer. So they took 10.000 Bath out of their savings, and one of the heirs - nephew C] - went to a lawyer in the capital of the region.

New to me was: For exactly this purpose my mother-in law A] and her niece B] had not only given 10.000 Bt to nephew C] for the lawyer, but they also signed a letter for him, which gave him the empowerment to deal with the lawyer for the whole group of three.

As well, they handed over all relevant documents, which proved their legal demands.

As you remember, nephew C) turned out to have a hidden agenda ===>

.... Well, at least, he, C], had told the other two, that he went there and handed over that money !!! But they never learned the name of the lawyer nor his adress, nor any feedback from there.

They only sensed AFTERWARDS, that - nephew C] - had made a "private deal" with the donor several months ago already, after which - nephew C] - had gone to the ....

[ERASE: ==> district court SET:==> LAND DEPARTMENT]

... and pretended that he was the only living heir of the grandfather (!!!) and that he, finally, wanted to sell the land to the donor "X".

Luckily, that office researched and found ... that the statement of the "sole heir" was untrue.

The two other had trusted C] when he had offered to look for lawyers consultancy, and now they find, the C] decided to play on the mafia-side. But, STILL, the land department wants to use the adress of C] as a target, when they will mail the re-issued documents !!! <== due to the "empowerment-letter"

* Well, after I had read your posts, we phoned "Mam" and explained the status.

* Right after that, "Mam" phoned nephew C] and told him: "We will be successful if we stand by each other... "

* .... but nephew C] is now refusing to give the letter of empowerment and the other documents back.

He is not even willing to meet them to talk and it looks like "X" has lended a big sum to C] and is now putting him under enormous pressure, to make the rest of his family shut up and leave the land to him.

Still, from your words I take enough optimism, that things might be sorted out in a positive way.

1. This morning the land department was informed, that the "empowerment letter" to C] is revoked.

1. The land department is asked to divide the heritage, so that each of the three is able to decide on his own, if to keep or to sell.

2. We still will be looking for legal support in order to be on the safe side.

3. And we will have to find out, how much we really should pay back to "X". 150.000 Bath sounds quite reasonable to me.

But BY YOUR POSTS, we have taken enough energy and power to march through the hierarchy to save the heritage of "Ma", who had had a miserable life, since she was born, - and who has been refusing to accept more financial support from us since the beginning !!

And we will try to overcome the fear, even though it was intensified early this morning, when we learned from a friend of my wife, who ownes a small shop in the village, that an employee of the land raider "X" has been there last night, "mao mak mak", telling her that his boss has said:

" We have lost in 3 cases already ... I will not loose one more case ... rather someone has to die ....!"

Well, this guy has no idea, how close the shop owner is to my family, and besides he was too drunk to have his brain switched on, therefore this, definitely, was no hidden threat via "silent post" ... but it has to be taken seriously.

Again, in this point, we will follow your advice, .. so this morning "Ma" went to the local police station" and told those guys about the threatening ...

If we weren't 10.000 miles away, we would go there NOW, - but in 3 weeks my wife will be visiting her home and I do hope, that by then, all things will show significant progress.

My I add a last question ?

I will arrive in the "interaction region" i.e. in my wife's home village in about 5 weeks / 2 weeks after her arrival.

I personally guess, that it would be complete nonsense to rent a big jeep with black windows and appear (as a falang) in front of the houses of

"X" as well as in front of the house of C] and make video and photos with ostentation.

But exactly this was recommended to me by a young Thai student, whom I have helped several times, by sending scientific books from Europe.

He told me: "Demonstrate that your mother-in-law has ALLIES ! If YOU show strength and courage, than the other side might be willing to negociate."

Well, he is Thai and knows the mentality of his country fellows, but for my taste I should better stay out of sight, instead of rising falang-hate with some people.

Am I wrong ??

THANKS AGAIN ! The four of you really helped us A LOT !

Have a wonderful day !

Kind regards

J.R.R.

[UnknownPoster]

Took a 20,000bt loan in 1982 and just now thinking of paying it back ?

Mean ol Mr. X has allot, more patience than me.

With modest interest, the payback would be at least 150,000bt, no?

[Heng]

Hope it works out for you...

but as a side note, I'd like to say that the last person I'd ask (IMO the same for most mainstream Thais as well) for local legal advice, much less try to get involved with a Thai-Thai / family fight over property would be a foreigner -unless he/she happened to be an attorney working locally-.

You might want to ask yourself why/how you became involved in this situation at all. I'm not making any assumptions, I'm just suggesting that you ask yourself. Maybe they really have no one else to counsel them.

[lannarebirth]

Heng raises a good point. You should be wary when facts dribble out rather than being presented in full. You may still not have heard the whole story. Something to think about.

My Thai friend who went through this twice, used a very good attorney she flew in from Bangkok. I only know him as Pee Tooey. I watched him though, he kicks ass but in that nice, oh so respectful Thai manner. Just kept asking questions he knew could not be answered without the land raider condemning themselves. He made them look greedy and stupid. If you want I'll try to get his contact details.

[t.s]

it would seem to me that a "letter of empowement" (power of attorney?) allows a person to act on your behalf. it can be also be rescinded.

heng's point while valid, may just be cynical. you are very likely just someone close to the family who is more well vesred in business in their eyes.

I constanly get asked my opinion in my extended family because i am farang, whether their trust is justified or not, they believe that i have a more "worldly" point of view.

[Rempler]

Thanks again for your very thoughtful comments, which are very much appreciated.

Most points are taken without disagreements or excuses, except, maybe - to a certain extent, the first one:

Took a 20,000bt loan in 1982 and just now thinking of paying it back ?

Mean ol Mr. X has allot, more patience than me.

With modest interest, the payback would be at least 150,000bt, no?

Dear Sir 'UnknownPoster'

I can easily follow your thoughts, but, please, - even though this is not a valid BUSINESS-reason - let us be fair and take into account that

1) the family had never been able to raise much money. Various strokes (severe illnesses, death and such) had induced one severe setback after the other, - AND - what may be even more relevant in this case ==>

2) Mr. X. has never made any attempts or given any signal, that he would be willing to close the deal by taking money back.

After having learned, that Mr.X. has run various such "lending"-operations to "gather" land on this track, I am relatively sure that he never had any intention to take his hand off of the land, but rather seeked to pocket Rai after Rai on this cheap road.

But Sir lannarebirth mentioned a very valid point: I SHOULD HAVE HEARD BOTH SIDES OF THE STORY before drawing conclusions.[Phil Collins/Genesis 1992 ??]

Furthermore I agree with you, that 150.000 Bt seems to be a fair offer.

Dear Khun Heng,

you hit 2 very valid points !

Hope it works out for you...

but as a side note, I'd like to say that the last person I'd ask (IMO the same for most mainstream Thais as well) for local legal advice, much less try to get involved with a Thai-Thai / family fight over property would be a foreigner -unless he/she happened to be an attorney working locally-.

You might want to ask yourself why/how you became involved in this situation at all. I'm not making any assumptions, I'm just suggesting that you ask yourself. Maybe they really have no one else to counsel them.

Not only that I fully agree, to better keep my falang-face in the shade and not interfere 'in situ',

but I also consider your question, how I became involved, as being absolutely legitimate.

I tend to follow the lines of Sir t.s.

you are very likely just someone close to the family who is more well vesred in business in their eyes. I constanly get asked my opinion in my extended family because i am farang, whether their trust is justified or not, they believe that i have a more "worldly" point of view.

as, reflecting this question, I recall, that, since my wife had settled in Europe with me, her elder sisters (who all are living with their spouses far away from Isaarn) began to ask for her advice and payed her pretty much respect (NO monetary effects involved here !!), - in quite some contrast to what was the case, when she was still "the pet of the family" before. They now consider her to have a "broader viewing angle ... Besides, my wife has always been the one, who was emotionally closest to "Ma" ... and I am "just" her husband.

Still, it seems that you have a sixth sense ... and I agree ... there might be deeper reasons, and it is worth to take some more time to think it over and realize that I may have taken some unwise steps here and there [e.g.: being too ready to take responsibilities within the family hierarchy] or, at least, I may have misjudged some situations.

Dear Sir lannarebirth,

you are so right ! The fact that still might not have heard all details, should make me act very careful.

You may well be sure, that I will follow this very wise advice !

Heng raises a good point. You should be wary when facts dribble out rather than being presented in full. You may still not have heard the whole story. Something to think about.

My Thai friend who went through this twice, used a very good attorney she flew in from Bangkok. I only know him as Pee Tooey. I watched him though, he kicks ass but in that nice, oh so respectful Thai manner. Just kept asking questions he knew could not be answered without the land raider condemning themselves. He made them look greedy and stupid. If you want I'll try to get his contact details.

Regarding the lawyer:

The sisters of my wife (+their spouses) all remained quite silent and asked my wife to be the "leader of the pack" and the main helping hand to "Ma" ..." but tonight they offered to extend their commitment beyond their financial share and get involved in the practical exercises. So one of my brothers-in-law wants to talk to his neighbour in Bang-Na, who is lawyer. Even though I doubt that this path will be very fruitful, the rules of politeness keep me from stopping him at this point. But, perhaps, in a few days, the search of an appropriate lawyer will be back in our tasklist. Therefore I would be very happy, if you would be able to get hands on the contact data of "Pee Tooey", if this would not cause too many efforts for you.

Dear all,

one more time: thank you very much indeed for your thoughts and your attention.

I am really surprised, how much help, superb advice, valuable information and even good wishes I have received in this case by all of you :-)

Have a wonderful Wednesday

Kind regards

yours

J.R.R.

"Kraut by nature"

P.s.: So true: If we want to make the world a better place, we have to start with the man in the mirror. Point taken !

Edited July 31, 2007 by Rempler

[Jersey_UK]

Thanks again for your very thoughtful comments, which are very much appreciated.

My first reaction was don't get involved. But by the end of the thread I changed my mind. IMO some things are just "right" to try and do - even if you fail........and IMO this is one of those things.

Quite agree with keeping Mr Farangs head down over this , but i am sure that Mr X will find out that their is a Mr Farang in the family over in Farangland.......and if he has any sense his heart will sink

If funds allow then IMO a lawyer from BKK would be a smart move, says that the family are serious and have the money and resources available to fight the case.......and therefore Mr X should be more likely to settle.........

Hope you keep folk updated.

[chownah]

Took a 20,000bt loan in 1982 and just now thinking of paying it back ?

Mean ol Mr. X has allot, more patience than me.

With modest interest, the payback would be at least 150,000bt, no?

This is a very good point....Mr. X assuredly did not loan money against the land because he is a nice guy and wanted to help someone out....no no no....he did it to benefit financially which is no secret to anyone....so....obviously when loaning the money the details of repayment were discussed and, getting to the point, some interest rate was probably agreed on......so......what was the agreed interest rate for this loan?.....

I did some calculations based on 25 years of accrued interest. A 20,000 baht loan with an interest rate of 15% per year for a period of 25 years yields a balance due of 658,000 baht. (please check to be sure I am correct as I did a very quick calc) I would say that it is actually very reasonable to think that the agreed interest rate was 15% per year and in fact this would be a very LOW interest rate compared to what I have heard and seen of this type of arrangement in Thailand.

It's look alot like Mr. X is owed 600,000 baht just as he has claimed and the family is trying to weasel out of paying a legitimate debt.

[soundman]

It's look alot like Mr. X is owed 600,000 baht just as he has claimed and the family is trying to weasel out of paying a legitimate debt.

I just did the calculation at 1.5% per month (compound) - the maximum legal interest under thai law from 31/1/1982 till this month's end & the accrued figure comes to 1,932,435.00 Baht

[Heng]

heng's point while valid, may just be cynical. you are very likely just someone close to the family who is more well vesred in business in their eyes.

As mentioned, I wasn't making any assumptions. You however indeed are, t.s. I was merely suggesting that the OP might want to question his involvement.

If the situation were reversed and we were having this discussion in the west... how much sense would it make that if a legal problem came up in business, or perhaps a civil issue like jury duty or appearing in traffic court... or any issue that would be as 'alien' to a foreigner as participating in a 3 way property dispute among siblings in Thailand which also happened to involved a local loan shark, pooyai baan, etc.... would we really want to consult Raoul, Quan-li, or Tokunbo the immigrant on any level deeper than coffee talk or during a light dinner table discussion?

Again, I suppose it's possible if the immigrant were a long term resident or local expert (not just in his own mind) such as an attorney or businessman with extensive dealings in real estate.

[torrenova]

A few facts:

You do not know the full story.

The relation © is or should be now an outcast

Recind any powers granted to him

If such powers not written correctly they do not apply

The land is still Ma's

Don't buy this guy off. If the land is really worth 6m he would want perhaps 5m

He is asking loads because there is a foreigner in the family

At 10% per annum, a pay off of 150k sees him way ahead (around 129k I think is the correct figure) but he has not benefitted from the land price increase in recent years.

I would not even agree the 20k unless he already signed some form to accept a payoff. I would, if you are able, to let him know the debt is about 129k but that you are willing to give him a good drink on top. You also inform him that 600k is a no-no and as the debt is not registered, his other option is zero. Get the police involved unless all the locals are in his pocket. Even they won't want 600k, nearer 6k.

[coventry]

I think Mr X is correct in asking for 600,000 after 25 years of being duped into lending the money originally. To take out a loan, irrespective of how long ago, and then turn up out of the blue wanting to pay the money back with a reduced rate because they can't afford anymore is taking the buscuit. Put the boot on the other foot, especially those that have sided with the borrowers.

I too lent money, on my wifes recommendation that the borrowers were good people, and they would pay back. I didn't do for financial gain but just to help out families get their crops planted and show good will. Big mistake. I didn't sign a contract as the people who I was dealing with were uneducated and accepted their word they would repay when the harvest came in. Do not lend money to Thais, even if they give you their land papers. Everyone who I lent money to never paid back on time and everyone told, proveable, lies. As for going to a lawyer to get ones money back do not bother they are bigger liars than the borrowers. The lawyer in Korat "Veena Rodway" doesn't come recommended.

Regarding going to get new land papers, while the originals still exist, that are in the hands of another person, is a serious offence. If Mr X finds out and goes to the police they will be prosecuted.

I'm out out of pocket the same as Mr X and see no chance of recovery possibile in getting my money back. So please do not feel sorry for anybody in this case other than Mr X. Unfortunately my problem has scarred me into thinking that all Thais are liars, con merchants and sh**. I cannot trust one.

[Heng]

^ Now there's some made up legal advice. It's not an offence of any kind whatsoever. It's no different than losing your driver license and applying for a new one while the old one "exists" somewhere in the world.

Now, it would be illegal if you tried to do something silly like that while say the property was still mortgaged (with the original sitting in the bank file cabinets) or under legal contract with another party.

p.s. the contract required to loan funds with property as collateral can be found in any well stocked stationary store. They are located along side rental agreements, power of attorney, general contracts, etc. Register said contract with the land office and only then will you have right to seize the collateral upon default.

Edited August 1, 2007 by Heng

[coventry]

^ Now there's some made up legal advice. It's not an offence of any kind whatsoever. It's no different than losing your driver license and applying for a new one while the old one "exists" somewhere in the world.

Heng your talking B***OCKS

When someone loses a drivers licence, or has it stolen in Thailand, they have to go to the police and report it as so. You cannot get a replacement without a police report. I should know I lost mine.

Regarding the land papers. To get a replacement this process also has to be followed or the registery office will not re issue. I should know as I lost mine when my house was burgled. I even had to take a policeman , from our village, to the land registry office to varify that the police report was genuine. They wouldn't accept confirmation over the phone. It then becomes an offence if the original is still in existance and the police were lied to, which would apply to the people in the initial thread. The land registry office does this so that people cannot keep applying for a new one every time they need the papers to borrow against. Can you imagine how many times you could sell a piece of land if it was the case of just going down and getting a new copy of you land papers ?

Now that's something that's not made up and neither was my previous post ! Heng, you are out of order indicating that I made legal advice. My legal advice comes from life not reading books. Regarding the seizeure of collateral, can one claim their land by default? Heng don't bother adding your two pennies worth. You remark about things you have no knowledge of just on the basis that you've been here a while. Pattaya and Bangkok isn't the real Thailand.

Edited August 1, 2007 by coventry

[dog412]

Took a 20,000bt loan in 1982 and just now thinking of paying it back ?

Mean ol Mr. X has allot, more patience than me.

With modest interest, the payback would be at least 150,000bt, no?

This is a very good point....Mr. X assuredly did not loan money against the land because he is a nice guy and wanted to help someone out....no no no....he did it to benefit financially which is no secret to anyone....so....obviously when loaning the money the details of repayment were discussed and, getting to the point, some interest rate was probably agreed on......so......what was the agreed interest rate for this loan?.....

I did some calculations based on 25 years of accrued interest. A 20,000 baht loan with an interest rate of 15% per year for a period of 25 years yields a balance due of 658,000 baht. (please check to be sure I am correct as I did a very quick calc) I would say that it is actually very reasonable to think that the agreed interest rate was 15% per year and in fact this would be a very LOW interest rate compared to what I have heard and seen of this type of arrangement in Thailand.

It's look alot like Mr. X is owed 600,000 baht just as he has claimed and the family is trying to weasel out of paying a legitimate debt.

unfortunately, i have to agree with this, and also state that the original interest agreed upon was probably higher than your calculations. sometimes here its like watching vultures circling in the desert. sad

[Heng]

Heng your talking B***OCKS

When someone loses a drivers licence, or has it stolen in Thailand, they have to go to the police and report it as so. You cannot get a replacement without a police report. I should know I lost mine.

Regarding the land papers. To get a replacement this process also has to be followed or the registery office will not re issue. I should know as I lost mine when my house was burgled. I even had to take a policeman , from our village, to the land registry office to varify that the police report was genuine. They wouldn't accept confirmation over the phone. It then becomes an offence if the original is still in existance and the police were lied to, which would apply to the people in the initial thread. The land registry office does this so that people cannot keep applying for a new one every time they need the papers to borrow against. Can you imagine how many times you could sell a piece of land if it was the case of just going down and getting a new copy of you land papers ?

Now that's something that's not made up and neither was my previous post ! Heng, you are out of order indicating that I made legal advice. My legal advice comes from life not reading books. Regarding the seizeure of collateral, can one claim their land by default? Heng don't bother adding your two pennies worth. You remark about things you have no knowledge of just on the basis that you've been here a while. Pattaya and Bangkok isn't the real Thailand.

LOLZ. No duh a police report is a given requirement. That's hardly the same as:

"Regarding going to get new land papers, while the originals still exist, that are in the hands of another person, is a serious offence. If Mr X finds out and goes to the police they will be prosecuted. "

All that would happen is the land department would tell you to go get a police report first and then to come right back (any low level police of the 'jar' rank can do it... it's such a common procedure that they often have a desk set up right in the waiting area). Prosecuted for having your own title deed reissued? Mr X has no contract, no previous transfer of said property to him, and THUS no claim on the property.

LOL!

[frikkiedeboer]

All that would happen is the land department would tell you to go get a police report first and then to come right back (any low level police of the 'jar' rank can do it... it's such a common procedure that they often have a desk set up right in the waiting area). Prosecuted for having your own title deed reissued? Mr X has no contract, no previous transfer of said property to him, and THUS no claim on the property.

LOL!

they would have to lie to the police to get the report.( a punishable offence in thailand). the land office is unlikely to issue new title deeds if the fellow admits to the police he handed over the paperwork as collateral for a loan and just needs a duplicate (and i doubt the police would bother to make the report under these circumstances). the police report would have to state that the papers were lost/stolen. i am not a lawyer, either, and just sucked this out of my thumb, so please feel free to ignore my input.

[Heng]

No lie required. They could literally say it was used as collateral with no legal contract. It's then up to the police as to what they want to translate that as. They may very well suggest that it just be reported as lost - that's the most common avenue for title deeds within the same family; for example: estranged family member holds the actual title deed that has not been transferred while rightful owner family member wishes to have the title deed reissued. The police don't bother writing down "gave chanote to sister in law but now wants the property back but S-I-L won't give it back, boo hoo." There's no need to go down the "stolen property" avenue because the documents have no legal value for the holder.

Again, I have to stress that if there is a buy/sell or sell/khai fark/jote jumnong contract in effect/registered with the land office, all of the above does not apply as the land dept. will not reissue you a chanote.

Edited August 1, 2007 by Heng

[coventry]

Heng first of all you stated that "it's the same as losing a drivers licence", you just go and apply for another one. You never mentioned doing a report to the police and stating false hoods. But in a later message you back tracked and mentioned getting a police report. Which is it, do you get a police report or just go and get another one ? How many driving licences have you lost ? How many land papers have you had to have replaced ? My belief would be NONE.

I still maintain that you cannot get a replacement of your land papers unless you get a police report of them either being lost or stolen. The police will not give you a report on the basis that someone else has your land papers. Consequently the registery office will not issue a replacement copy.

So the people decide to lie to obtain a replacement. They go to the police and say "it's been lost" and file a report as such. This is then the offence. Okay they may get away with this deception for a while but, as I've posted before, if Mr X finds out then he can report the deception to the police.

I have been through the process of trying to get new land papers. It's one of the most b*ll busting processes I've had to endure in Thailand and will take up the day at the land registry followed a few days later by another day at their office. I admit I tried to look for ways to by pass the system, but even the police officer, that went with us to the registry office, made it quite clear about the severities of of not following the correct process.

I do not wish to get drawn anymore into this difference of opinion and I think it only fair that the original starter of this thread comes back on and gives us a break down of how things are progressing. My belief is that the land registry will not issue a replacement copy on the basis someone else has the original. If I'm wrong, then I'm prepared to apologise.

Edited August 2, 2007 by coventry

[Heng]

Heng first of all you stated that "it's the same as losing a drivers licence", you just go and apply for another one. You never mentioned doing a report to the police and stating false hoods. But in a later message you back tracked and mentioned getting a police report. Which is it, do you get a police report or just go and get another one ? How many driving licences have you lost ? How many land papers have you had to have replaced ? My belief would be NONE.

No backtracking involved. I also didn't mention that you might want to take a leak before going to the land dept. and that you should bring your own pen as well. Oh, and you'll also need to bring your ID and house registration. Hey, I didn't mention that either! It's not as easy as going in and ordering a cheeseburger, if that was your impression; there are indeed some procedures involved.

That hardly makes it a falsehood. Have replaced about a dozen chanotes over the years, mostly because of worn age mostly ones from back in the days (my grandparents era) when we didn't store and handle them properly; and the chanote number was no longer complete or visible. The police report came out as "lost." Driver licenses, none. But I have lost an insurance sticker, and the same easy report procedure was done. Again, Mr. X has no legal claim whatsoever so cannot file any charges. There is no "jao took" in getting your own title deed reissued.

[Heng]

On a similar tangent... I see fresh reissued chanotes all the time that people intend to use as collateral (legally registered with the land dept. the way it should be done) for short term low interest loans. Often by folks whose significant others don't know they are doing so -but it doesn't matter as long as the land/home/building in question is under loan applicant's name-... and this includes both locals and mia and "partners" of falang and other foreigners. Now, I'm not involved in the reissues (with the originals presumably stored in the significant others' safe or desk drawers), but that's what's clearly being done. Perfectly legal.

[ozzydom]

T/W recently "lost/ misplaced a title deed,She had to notify the Amphur Land Office,then the village boss and main town boss,, she then had to circulate a form around the village and afix acopy to poles around the village as well as on the Amphur Bulletin Board stating that she was applying for the issue of a new Title.

After 14 days she had to accompany the village and town boss to the Land Office where they made the statement that nobody had came forward claiming the land or claiming that there was borrowings against the land.

She received her new Title about a month later.

ozzy

[t.s]

heng's point while valid, may just be cynical. you are very likely just someone close to the family who is more well vesred in business in their eyes.

As mentioned, I wasn't making any assumptions. You however indeed are, t.s. I was merely suggesting that the OP might want to question his involvement.

If the situation were reversed and we were having this discussion in the west... how much sense would it make that if a legal problem came up in business, or perhaps a civil issue like jury duty or appearing in traffic court... or any issue that would be as 'alien' to a foreigner as participating in a 3 way property dispute among siblings in Thailand which also happened to involved a local loan shark, pooyai baan, etc.... would we really want to consult Raoul, Quan-li, or Tokunbo the immigrant on any level deeper than coffee talk or during a light dinner table discussion?

Again, I suppose it's possible if the immigrant were a long term resident or local expert (not just in his own mind) such as an attorney or businessman with extensive dealings in real estate.

I dont think i have made any assumptions. I offered up a scenario to act as a counterbalance to yours. While i remain in agreement with you that his involvement should be limited, i do not think that this situation has an equivalent in the west. In the west all parties involved would have a more solid basic understanding of their rights which would render asking for the advice of an alien unnecessary.

that is not necessarily the case here.

i maintain that your advice is good, perhaps some of the strongest given thus far, yet it may be somewhat cynical. that said, cynical has always worked for me, and i would be very cautious with my recommendations in a similar situation.

What i do find amusing is a later statement by another poster who said something along the lines of:

"Mr X will find out that their is a Mr Farang in the family over in Farangland.......and if he has any sense his heart will sink"

this is just silliness.

[Heng]

No worries, t.s. Again, I wasn't suggesting any scenario... I certainly didn't want to imply that the OP was being "had" somehow. I was merely stating an opinion from the perspective of very rarely (I'd almost like to say never) having seen most mainstream Thais seek to involve foreigners with local issues/problems. And a good number of my friends are luk krungs, farangs, and other foreigners. I rarely have legal issues, but when I do, these folks are hardly on my mind as potential counsel. There is a Thai-farang/foreign subculture where such interactions are somewhat of a norm, although even in those cases legal counsel is still usually obtained through other Thais, and very rarely the foreign party.

The comparison to the made up scenario about asking an immigrant for counsel was merely to demonstrate that immigrants are rarely used as counsel for local problems (unless there is an alterior motive or the immigrant was indeed an expert in such matters, perhaps).

Edited August 2, 2007 by Heng

[coventry]

T/W recently "lost/ misplaced a title deed,She had to notify the Amphur Land Office,then the village boss and main town boss,, she then had to circulate a form around the village and afix acopy to poles around the village as well as on the Amphur Bulletin Board stating that she was applying for the issue of a new Title.

After 14 days she had to accompany the village and town boss to the Land Office where they made the statement that nobody had came forward claiming the land or claiming that there was borrowings against the land.

She received her new Title about a month later.

ozzy

This shows that one cannot just go to the land register office as Heng suggested and just obtain a new land paper. If Remplers family were made to do the same process Mr X would show that he has lent money on security of the land and the re issue would be denied. For some unexplained reason I had to obtain a police report, I think it was because my papers were stolen.

If Remplers family manage to get past the first hurdle, ie Mr X doesn't see the posters, then go to the land registry and make a statement that there is no borrowing against the land they are committing an offence. End of story.