Gays Who Deny Their Sexuality Are Not Cowards. Discuss?

[onni4me]

You don't have to be gay to be victimised - all you need to do is appear to be gay (in some imperceptible way).

Was I a coward or should I have "outed" myself & therefore become known as "gay" to the whole homophobic "data cabling industry" in Sydney? After spending years of learning the trade, did I really need to be faced with never working in that industry again, in the state of New South Wales?

Yes. This is exactly what I meant. We need do no harm or have ill intent. People do it for us. Very few of us work with their cock and balls. If we can not be considered as human beings and as normal as deviation from "normality" allows then I see no future betterment for humankind.

<deleted> does it have to do with my work that I should always confess myself to total strangers. Some seem to look like I should.

I look your situation differ not that much from millions that can't talk about themselves because they would never be accepted as part of "us". Not nice but how it has always appeared to me.

[peekint]

My head spins, yet again, with the extremes. TRUMPETING ANNOUNCING, CONFESSING (all verbs from above posts). I mean, puh-lease. Can't being out just be "being yourself" and not "creating melodrama"?

Next, the electrician example proves my point that being in the closet doesn't work anyway.

Be dishonest discreet (avoid the office party, neuter your nouns, deny your partner in front of others), and see where it gets you? Same as if you did it 'tother way round. Only, the people who have rejected you not only reject you for being Gay, but also for being dishonest. Fine solution to the problem.

In my list of consequences, I did mention about choosing love of work over love of partner. Many people of both sexual orientations choose that route. Personally, I think it will lead to a rather empty life in the end, but different cups are filled with different brews. I mean, if you want to be the Republican Senator from Minnesota, and that's the most important thing in your life, then you dam_n well better s*ck off boys in the toilets rather than take a lifelong, loving partner (or even date other men). It comes down to a career choice, doesn't it?

How about turning away from extremes? Nobody is suggesting anything other than living your life, taking the consequences and dealing with them (I'm tempted to tag on the sexist line "like a man"). My personal values tell me to respect a person more when they do that, just like they tell me to respect an honest person over a dishonest one. Doesn't mean I force dishonest people to be honest, does it? Could I even do it? No.

But truly, in our youthful isolation I think Gay people often develop the fantasy that straights have no troubles in life. Nobody ever fires them, nobody ever throws them out of their apartment, nobody ever gets estranged from their families, nobody ever gets beat up or robbed, and nobody ever gets rude service or a social disease.

Oh, can we get over ourselves? Are we so important that our lives are particularly persecuted or singled out for misery, except for the misery we make for ourselves? Yeah, the world is not fair. So? And it is totally fair for ______________ ? (Fill in the blank)

Why shouldn't everyone make such a big deal out of our being Gay, when we can be so histrionic about it ourselves?

Dishonest living seems like the easy road, but as they say in Chicago, what goes around comes around.

PS - last time I checked, Africa wasn't in the West or Asia. I vehemently disagree with the comment about China. I knew many quite open Chinese Gay couples during my years living there (1989-1997), from all walks of life from small villages to big cities (that said, Gay activism is dangerous, but so is any activism there). And as for India, many provinces are making great strides in acceptance of Gay people, violence against Gays is less common than in the States, and there are quite a few brave souls there working hard, being open, and taking the consequences so that generations after them won't have to (there are some very good web resources you can educate yourself with, just Google "gay India news" and read about it.) Many people would say it's harder to be a rural women in India than to be Gay. Should the women go have sex changes to avoid the hassle?

"

Antara Dev Sen

Saturday, July 05, 2008 20:39 IST

Last Sunday, India saw the first splendid coming-out ceremony for gays in a multi-city gay pride march. Thousands marched for gay rights in Kolkata, Delhi and Bangalore — homosexuals, heterosexuals, bisexuals, transgenders, hijras. It was part celebration, part protest, the way gay pride marches have always been around the world

"

[angmo]

I find it amazing how some of us tend to lecture others on how to live their lives.

I have always been a business owner and always been out of the closet with my staff. I have NEVER had anyone resign or not accept a job offer because of my sexuality - I guess it depends on the confidence and comfort you show with yourself. However I don't go around with a sign that says "I'm gay" either. Many of my customers know I am gay - not because I tell them - but because they have asked about my marital status or partner or something at some point. For example, many of my international customers have visited me in Thailand and therefor I have needed to entertain them. I always take my boyfriend along. I have never had a negative reaction. Actually many of my customers have become good friends and are totally comfortable with my sexual preference.

Know comes the difficult(controversial) bit. Most of the time (90%) I answer honestly and have never been rejected or lost business because of it. However, when I do business in the Middle East where homosexuality is still mostly extremely unacceptable, I have avoided offering the full truth of my relationship. Would this be because I am a coward or just because I believe in self-preservation? Call me what you want, but I am not going to jeopardize my safety or lose a million dollar contract just to prove a point and shove my sexuality in someone's face. That would not only affect me, but my business partners and staff as well. I am sure they would love me for throwing away all that money just to prove a point.

Another uncomfortable situation I encountered was during my compulsory military service in South Africa. There were rumours in the camp about my sexuality - mainly because my close friends knew and I did not hide it - but one day at a parade the CO confronted me in public and asked "Are you queer?" My response was quite simple "Why do you want to know? Do you want to sleep with me?" He turned red and walked off in a huff. I did not see that it was any of his business. Was that cowardly?

So - in some cases when someone has asked me whether I am married, I have just said no and not offered any more than that.

To me it seems, there are choices to be made depending on your circumstances. I have absolutely no shame about being gay, however I sometimes think that discretion is the better part of valour.

[elkangorito]

My comments in blue.

My head spins, yet again, with the extremes. TRUMPETING ANNOUNCING, CONFESSING (all verbs from above posts). I mean, puh-lease. Can't being out just be "being yourself" and not "creating melodrama"?

Next, the electrician example proves my point that being in the closet doesn't work anyway.

Unfortunately, being a "tradesman" in western countries can be quite difficult for gay people. This has nothing to do with gay mannerisms or the like. It has everything to do with fitting into the heterosexual "model"...whatever that is. If you don't fit this model, not only are you rejected but you can also be ejected.

In my list of consequences, I did mention about choosing love of work over love of partner. Many people of both sexual orientations choose that route.

What if you love your work as well as your partner? For example, should I choose a job more profiled for a gay person than for a straight person...like a hairdresser or flight steward? Or can I be a gay electrician? Is this choosing "love over partner" or just choosing a vocation suitable to ones liking?

How about turning away from extremes? Nobody is suggesting anything other than living your life, taking the consequences and dealing with them (I'm tempted to tag on the sexist line "like a man"). My personal values tell me to respect a person more when they do that, just like they tell me to respect an honest person over a dishonest one. Doesn't mean I force dishonest people to be honest, does it? Could I even do it? No.

Well, that is what you do. Unfortunately, many people don't have the same idea as you.

But truly, in our youthful isolation I think Gay people often develop the fantasy that straights have no troubles in life. Nobody ever fires them, nobody ever throws them out of their apartment, nobody ever gets estranged from their families, nobody ever gets beat up or robbed, and nobody ever gets rude service or a social disease.

Undoubtedly, straight people share the same problems as gay people but I would suggest that gay people suffer less tolerance about their problems, if they are honest about it. Example:

Employer: "Your performance has dropped. Why?"

You: "To be honest, I've been having some emotional problems lately...with my partner."

Employer: "Partner? Are you married?"

You: "No but we've been together for many years."

Employer: "Do you need some time off work?"

You: "Yes please. That would help."

Allow me to now reword this "normally":

Employer: "Your performance has dropped. Why?"

You: "To be honest, I've been having some emotional problems lately...with my girlfriend."

Employer: "Are you married?"

You: "No but we've been together for many years."

Employer: "Do you need some time off work?"

You: "Yes please. That would help."

The only difference is that one statement is a lie & the other isn't. Of course, I'm assuming that the employer is not the "probing" type. In many cases, gay people do not have the luxury of taking such time off work due to the possibility of probing questions, which could lead to ones dismissal if answered incorrectly. Is this "love over relationship" or survival?

Oh, can we get over ourselves? Are we so important that our lives are particularly persecuted or singled out for misery, except for the misery we make for ourselves? Yeah, the world is not fair. So? And it is totally fair for ______________ ? (Fill in the blank)

I'm sure I can "get over it" if the others can "get over" the existence of gay people.

Why shouldn't everyone make such a big deal out of our being Gay, when we can be so histrionic about it ourselves?

I don't know which part of this thread you consider to be histrionic but expecting equal rights in the workplace is certainly not histrionic.

Dishonest living seems like the easy road, but as they say in Chicago, what goes around comes around.

I'd sooner be a smidge dishonest than be dead or beaten up. The difficult thing is to learn the balance of "lies" to protect yourself from possible violence & not entirely lose your integrity. Of course, the alternative is that all gay people declare themselves publicly, & hopefully there will be too many of us to deal with. What I'm trying to say is that you can only beat up so many people before your fists get sore & you can only kill so many people before it becomes too costly. If the courts become involved in such a travesty of justice, cost would be a prime demotivator for legal action against a large number of people.

Antara Dev Sen

Saturday, July 05, 2008 20:39 IST

Last Sunday, India saw the first splendid coming-out ceremony for gays in a multi-city gay pride march. Thousands marched for gay rights in Kolkata, Delhi and Bangalore — homosexuals, heterosexuals, bisexuals, transgenders, hijras. It was part celebration, part protest, the way gay pride marches have always been around the world

"

Yeah, Sydney has the Gay & Lesbian Mardi Gras too. The police ensure that homophobes stay calm. As a result, the whole thing "appears" wonderful. In actual fact, lots of people are subdued before they get to make trouble. Not that trouble makers would be a problem since there is safety in numbers amongst gay people.

Upon which perfect gay planet do you live? Please let us know...we may all like to go there, providing you aren't there.

I find it amazing how some of us tend to lecture others on how to live their lives.

To me it seems, there are choices to be made depending on your circumstances. I have absolutely no shame about being gay, however I sometimes think that discretion is the better part of valour.

Very true.

[onni4me]

I thank elkangorito for his remarks.

There are no cowards in being part of minority. Otherwise we would simply not exist. I admire greatly those who have chosen the difficult path to open the way. I am personally not that brave - more of a man choosing the easy way out (read: practical and non-hurtful) on personal questions. My closest people and my family knows. I consider that to be sufficient. Who else I should tell is my choice - nobody else can/should decide for me.

Edited November 17, 2008 by onni4me

[Ijustwannateach]

I simply assume that most of the Thais in my workplace- including both the teachers and the students- are socially sensitive enough to figure out where I am- and on the basis of their reactions to me in our professional relationships, they're entirely ok with me as a person. Culturally, it's a 'don't ask, don't tell' situation, but there's no need to ask- they probably already know.

However, this is one of the advantages to living in a non-homophobic culture.

'S'

[PeaceBlondie]

My schools were don't ask don't tell, and I did not tell publicly. I avoided words like "my boyfriend" and 'my partner.' The one gay kid who did ask, on his deathbed, probably had a dying curiosity. I should have told him then. But after I left that city, I got out of the closet, and nobody cared.

[peekint]

Upon which perfect gay planet do you live? Please let us know...we may all like to go there, providing you aren't there.

First, I am actually quite flattered someone would suggest that, if he found paradise, and later found I was there too, he would abandon it, Adam-and-Eve-like, clutching grape leaves to cover himself so he wouldn't be seen for who he really was. I didn't realize I had so much power!

Fun aside, I'm going to leave this thread now and spend my time cavorting on the new thread about outing.

My parting comment is just a summary of what I've argued here already (or, at least, implied and asserted).

If I offended anyone personally, the offense was imaginary. Frankly, my method of posting is to read the bunch of posts that came since my last one, meld them all together in my head, and then write something. I neither look at nor am I interested in the names (nick-names?) of particular posters. So, if you have taken offense, you've done so of your own accord and should get over it.

(Even when I quote a post like the one above, usually it's only to take out a particular point, or because I've been singled out personally rather than my line of thinking. Frankly, I still haven't paid any attention to the ID of whoever wrote that bit about the perfect Gay planet, no matter how hard it made me laugh!)

Anyway, here's my parting shot:

1. I don't think anyone is a coward who doesn't come out. The opposite of courage is not cowardice, it is complacency.

2. I do feel quite justified in giving more respect to people who are honest about the way they live their llives than those who are dishonest about it.

3. I don't believe being Gay is any more difficult than being any other minority, with the exception of our making it harder on ourselves by succumbing to the delusion that we can deny being who we are without anyone knowing, sort of like the cat with feathers in his teeth and the innocent look on his face.

4. I do believe that the more visible and honest we are today, the easier it will be for Gay people to lead honest, happy and fulfilling lives in the future.

I came out in the early 70s (in high school) and remember what the world was like for Gay people in the USA thirty years ago. I can see how more and more of us being out and visible has brought us to where we are today. I am quite certain that giving in to irrational fears of dramatic consequences gets us nothing but more misery. That's not to say occasionally drastic consequences don't happen. I have a Lesbian friend who was disfigured with a hatchet in the 1980s by a nutcase inspired by Anita Bryant. But it is to say that it's more like Lee Trevino getting hit by lightning on the course than like Tiger Woods making a birdie on the 17th. And even then, Trevino didn't give up golf by hiding his clubs in the closet.

[paulfromphuket]

1. I don't think anyone is a coward who doesn't come out. The opposite of courage is not cowardice, it is complacency.

I can not agree,

the opposite is neither coward nor cowardice, it is fear.

fear of their countries laws

fear of their jobs

fear of their peers

fear of their families

fear of society

fear of themselves

I applaud you for wanting a utopia but life is not that simple

I myself am lucky in that I have faced those fears and enjoy a more rewarding life having done so but for many others they still have their demons to exorcise.

This thread is still alive.

[onni4me]

3. I don't believe being Gay is any more difficult than being any other minority, with the exception of our making it harder on ourselves by succumbing to the delusion that we can deny being who we are without anyone knowing, sort of like the cat with feathers in his teeth and the innocent look on his face.

That's not to say occasionally drastic consequences don't happen. I have a Lesbian friend who was disfigured with a hatchet in the 1980s by a nutcase inspired by Anita Bryant. But it is to say that it's more like Lee Trevino getting hit by lightning on the course than like Tiger Woods making a birdie on the 17th. And even then, Trevino didn't give up golf by hiding his clubs in the closet.

So, couldn't help myself smiling of the idea being a cat. Felines are dangerous (had a few) but I reckon that regular gays don't bite that much, neither they eat their bite victims. Thinking of it more carefully that might be an image that some religious gay haters would have in mind regarding their children or themselves. So after being amused a while I became serious again...

That hatchet thing is really terrible and yet you miss the point that THIS IS THE REASON WHY WE SHOULD BE AWARE!!! It might happen! We live in a real world full of nutcases, religious fanatics, Ws and warmongers that are afraid of us! You seem to even joke about it but to her its real. It wasn't the lightning, it was another human being on this unperfect planet.

[endure]

PS - last time I checked, Africa wasn't in the West or Asia. I vehemently disagree with the comment about China. I knew many quite open Chinese Gay couples during my years living there (1989-1997), from all walks of life from small villages to big cities (that said, Gay activism is dangerous, but so is any activism there). And as for India, many provinces are making great strides in acceptance of Gay people, violence against Gays is less common than in the States, and there are quite a few brave souls there working hard, being open, and taking the consequences so that generations after them won't have to (there are some very good web resources you can educate yourself with, just Google "gay India news" and read about it.) Many people would say it's harder to be a rural women in India than to be Gay. Should the women go have sex changes to avoid the hassle?

"

Antara Dev Sen

Saturday, July 05, 2008 20:39 IST

Last Sunday, India saw the first splendid coming-out ceremony for gays in a multi-city gay pride march. Thousands marched for gay rights in Kolkata, Delhi and Bangalore — homosexuals, heterosexuals, bisexuals, transgenders, hijras. It was part celebration, part protest, the way gay pride marches have always been around the world

"

Homosexuality is illegal in India with anal intercourse punishable by life imprisonment under S377 of the Unnatural Offences Act. The act also applies to oral sex. The courts in recent cases under the act have imposed much lighter sentences. S377 also criminalizes male to male sex with up to 10 years imprisonment.

Section 377, Unnatural Offences

Reproduced verbatim from the 28th Edition of The Indian Penal Code

Whoever voluntarily has carnal intercourse against the order of nature with any man, women or animal, shall be punished with imprisonment for life, or with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to ten years, and shall be liable to fine.

The Acts (fall) into two categories:

1. Sexual intercourse per OS (mouth) and

2. Manipulation and movement of penis of the accused whilst being held by the victims in such a way as to create orifice like thing for making manipulated movement of insertion and withdrawal till ejaculation of semen.

Explanation: Penetration is sufficient to constitute the carnal intercourse necessary to the offence described in this section.

It doesn't really matter how many hajiras march in major Indian cities. Homosexuality in India still attracts a maximum penalty of life imprisonment. Go and tell the story of the few brave Kolkota souls to the 16 year old Muslim in Gujarat who's agreeing to an arranged marriage just to stay alive...

[mezzoninny]

My situation isn't quite exactly what's being discussed in this thread, but I saw quite a few good points being made here, and thought I'd chime in.

What peekint has said actually makes sense to me, that our own businesses is in fact everybody's business to some degree (we as humans can't help it), and that "by taking the consequences, the consequences become less for you and other people as time goes on." I say that because I'm one of those people who haven't come out, even though I don't seem to need the safety of the closet. I'm not even out to people whom I'm sure will be fairly accepting and open-minded around me. I don't even think about trying, and the reason is that I feel I have nothing to gain from being openly gay.

I'm having a lot of problems in my life, and none of them are tied into my sexuality. I wonder about my job, about money, the whole nine yards, I question my sanity, and they're not going away just because I might have an alternative lifestyle. Every time I come into contact with a particular "gay" universe, either online or in real life, I don't feel relieved or vindicated. All I see is how different I am from them, and what a difficult sale I'd make in that universe. All I see is people who don't want me for one reason or another. You know, like not shaving? I take the razor to my pubes and after 30 minutes of trying,finally conceding that I'm incapable of shaving, and am therefore not part of the gay world?

I'm fine with people saying that I might be a coward, because I really just might be that. But it's also fun to note that, being gay doesn't stop other people trying to tell you how to live. If you have faced your fears, it might be pretty easy to recommend that the rest of us follow, but until I learn to shave, I say let us cowards be cowards, and stop telling us what to do. We just might work out what to do in our own time.

[PeaceBlondie]

First time I even thought about shaving my pubes, was many years after I came out of the closet. For a moment there, I thought you meant shaving your face. I remember, before I came out, I was just so preoccupied with my job and other things, that I was still in denial to myself. Hang in there. You might want to come out of the closet any year now. You might even enjoy it.

[mezzoninny]

Thanks, I'll look out for it.