Rising Political Extremism in East Germany Signals a Deepening Divide

[JonnyF]

38 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

I'm with Howard Beale- I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore ( even if I have to elect a far right government to get rid of the liberal elites that are destroying out lives ).

 

That's the trouble. The left have overreached so far that people will vote far right just to teach them a lesson.

 

It's the politics of division. We need more moderates or I fear the worst. 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

 

That's the trouble. The left have overreached so far that people will vote far right just to teach them a lesson.

 

It's the politics of division. We need more moderates or I fear the worst. 

It's too late. The liberal policies have been embedded ( how can the US deport 10 million or so illegal immigrants that have been allowed to put down roots? Same as in all western countries that have allowed millions of them in.

 

The only answer to it, IMO, short of something really nasty, is to stop any more coming in and cracking down on the criminals with really long non parole sentences or voluntary repatriation.

[JonnyF]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

It's too late. The liberal policies have been embedded ( how can the US deport 10 million or so illegal immigrants that have been allowed to put down roots? Same as in all western countries that have allowed millions of them in.

 

The only answer to it, IMO, short of something really nasty, is to stop any more coming in and cracking down on the criminals with really long non parole sentences or voluntary repatriation.

 

Agree. Same in Europe. When the centre right let them down and then the left make it even worse people will hold their nose vote far right.

 

It's their only choice. 

 

I fear the worst and am very happy to be in the relative sanity of Thailand, a country that protects its borders and culture like many in the East. That's why the East is rising and the west is failing. 

 

I remember a philippino colleague in bangkok saying to me in his typically no nonsense fashion" you know the trouble with the West you're too f'in liberal". I agreed.

 

[mdr224]

30 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

That's the trouble. The left have overreached so far that people will vote far right just to teach them a lesson.

 

It's the politics of division. We need more moderates or I fear the worst. 

After social media was invented, moderates have become a thing of the past

[thaibeachlovers]

14 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Agree. Same in Europe. When the centre right let them down and then the left make it even worse people will hold their nose vote far right.

 

It's their only choice. 

 

I fear the worst and am very happy to be in the relative sanity of Thailand, a country that protects its borders and culture like many in the East. That's why the East is rising and the west is failing. 

 

I remember a philippino colleague in bangkok saying to me in his typically no nonsense fashion" you know the trouble with the West you're too f'in liberal". I agreed.

 

The best "normal" country I ever lived in was Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore in the 70s. No one disrespected the police, it was safe, there were no layabouts living off other people's money, People all had somewhere to live, enough to eat. No drones like influencers and lobbyists. The government wasn't full of liberals trying to spend other people's money on stupid social idiocies, and there was basically no corruption at any level.

People say it was akin to dictatorship. Perhaps it was, but it was a better country to live in than any western country I have lived in.

[Cameroni]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

When the AFD gains power, and it seems inevitable given the disaster the present mob have created, revenge will be sweet!

The moderates should listen to the people, instead of blundering along alienating voters with ill considered policies. That's a common trait among western nations- arrogant people in power that think they can do whatever they like.

 

It's like Johnny said, the left has permeated the entire body politic far too much and far too strongly. We basically have socialist market economies all over Europe, and especially in Germany. Even the CDU has adopted a myriad of socialist and leftist policies.

 

For years the political establishment in Germany has tried to destroy any party that threatened the political establishment, to the extent of literally banning them. They could not do so thus far with the AfD because its leaders have learnt from the past mistakes of other parties and are scrupulous about not falling into the traps that would give their opponents the possibility to ban them under German law.

 

For anyone who is not familiar with the dark side of German politics you should read the story of Horst Mahler. Mahler, a lawyer who was good friends with Otto Shily and many other establishment figures started out as a leftist and eventually drifted to the right. He published some material that violated Germany's laws against saying bad things about its past. Horst Mahler is now 88 years old. He had to spend over 10 years in prison for saying and writing the wrong thing. He did not attack anybody. He did not injure anybody. He did not kill anybody. But he had to spend 10 years in prison for thought crimes, for writing the wrong thing.

 

Meanwhile a rapist in Germany got 2 years. Mahler got 10 years. Germany's very own political prisoner. Now released thankfully.

 

 

Edited September 1 by Cameroni

[newbee2022]

On 8/30/2024 at 5:00 PM, Cameroni said:

 

More amusing drivel, good job. In fact East Germans themselves brought about unification, uniquely bringing down a political regime by peaceful protests. One could argue that East Germans, ie the ones marching on the streets and risking their lives were the ones who brought communism to an end.

 

Some of the very brightest and most able people in Germany come from East Germany, in fact it was sufficient to occupy the post of prime minister for many years.

 

But of course they will not be allowed to vote AfD because West Germany is a pseudo democracy where political parties do backroom deals to ostracize the AfD, and ensure the AfD is hobbled in every conceivable way. This includes the German secret service spying on AfD members and funding being withdrawn. No matter what happens the AfD will be unable to achieve anything. We saw the same in France when a right wing party threatened to win votes. The political establishment will find ways to stop it from happening. To say nothing of the abysmal and biased German media.

 

Democracy in Western Europe is nothing but a bad joke. I've not voted in years. Total waste of time. Far from being a "modern and dynamic" society Germany is one of the most backward nations, where internet is among the poorest in Europe and government bureucracy is still trying to catch up with digitalisation. The Greens, the SPD, Die Linke, they've all ensured Germany has become a basket case, and now, uniquely is the only country in Europe in actual recession.

 

 

I reckon many people would call you waste of space.

What hypocrisy to complain about everything but not doing anything to change. Voting is one right to exercise, in some countries it's a duty.

To hail a Nazi party is just calling for a dictatorship as it was formerly in East Germany. To wish those times with deportations during 3rd Reich to come back is intolerable. 👎

[Cameroni]

20 minutes ago, newbee2022 said:

 

What hypocrisy to complain about everything but not doing anything to change. Voting is one right to exercise, in some countries it's a duty.

To hail a Nazi party is just calling for a dictatorship as it was formerly in East Germany. To wish those times with deportations during 3rd Reich to come back is intolerable. 👎

Total drivel. Many parties have tried to change things in Germany, with the net result that they were put on the surveillance list of the local bureau of Germany's domestic intelligence agency, had their funding withdrawn, were boycotted in parliament and in the case of Germany's very own political prisoner Horst Mahler were imprisoned for 10 years for thought crimes. No thanks.

 

To call the AfD, a middle class conservative and patriotic party, a "Nazi" party is just evidence of a total lack of intellectual honesty.

 

You don't need to wish for deportations, you have Horst Mahler who was imprisoned for 10 years in Germany for thought crimes. Intolerable indeed.

Edited September 1 by Cameroni

[newbee2022]

20 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

Total drivel. Many parties have tried to change things in Germany, with the net result that they were put on the surveillance list of the local bureau of Germany's domestic intelligence agency, had their funding withdrawn, were boycotted in parliament and in the case of Germany's very own political prisoner Horst Mahler were imprisoned for 10 years for thought crimes. No thanks.

 

To call the AfD, a middle class conservative and patriotic party, a "Nazi" party is just evidence of a total lack of intellectual honesty.

 

You don't need to wish for deportations, you have Horst Mahler who was imprisoned for 10 years in Germany for thought crimes. Intolerable indeed.

Oh dear, what a twisted criminal Nazi brain. You hail extremists, Nazis and murderer. As I said: waste of space, my friend said. 👎 You're not different from Hamas or islamists and IS  unfortunately. 

[Cameroni]

23 hours ago, newbee2022 said:

Oh dear, what a twisted criminal Nazi brain. You hail extremists, Nazis and murderer. As I said: waste of space, my friend said. 👎 You're not different from Hamas or islamists and IS  unfortunately. 

 

Turns out my brain predicted things correctly though. In Thuringia the AfD won more votes than any party. Will they form the state government? No. Even though the AfD got the most votes, the CDU, BWS and Linke will form a coalition government, bypassing the will of the voters.

 

Since most parties only get votes in the 34% plus if they did well these days, due to the fragmentation of society and the plethora of parties, there should be an electoral reform. The way things are now governments are formed by backdoor political negotiations. It's got little to do with democracy.

[BigStar]

Merely an expected negative spin by the leftist NYT.

 

But for a lil' satire now to lighten things up a bit. Here's the solution:

 

UK Prime Minister Recommends Citizens Avoid Stabbings By Submitting To The Holy Koran And Acknowledging Muhammad As The One True Prophet Of Allah, Peace Be Upon Him

 

LONDON — In an official response to the recent unrest in Great Britain, UK Prime Minister Kier Starmer has advised British citizens to avoid getting stabbed by just submitting to the Holy Koran and acknowledging Mohammed as the One True Prophet of Allah, peace be upon him.

 

In his address to the great British public, Starmer noted that it "really isn't that hard" to not get stabbed, always providing that "one is a good Allah-fearing man and not an infidel."

 

"I say, old chaps, just convert to Islam, what what?" Starmer reportedly said, gesturing towards a table where British government officials were handing out burkas and AK-47s.

     --https://babylonbee.com/news/uk-prime-minister-recommends-citizens-avoid-stabbings-by-submitting-to-the-holy-koran-and-acknowledging-mohammed-as-the-one-true-prophet-of-allah-peace-be-upon-him

 

[RayC]

9 minutes ago, Cameroni said:

 

Turns out my brain predicted things correctly though. In Thuringia the AfD won more votes than any party. Will they form the state government? No. Even though the AfD got the most votes, the CDU, BWS and Linke will form a coalition government, bypassing the will of the voters.

 

Since most parties only get votes in the 34% plus if they did well these days, due to the fragmentation of society and the plethora of parties, there should be an electoral reform. The way things are now governments are formed by backdoor political negotiations. It's got little to do with democracy.

 

Unfortunately the AfD polled well. As the largest party they have earned the right to attempt to form a coalition. However, there is nothing improper or undemocratic about the other parties refusing to join an AfD-led coalition. It certainly doesn't "bypass the will of the people" as you suggest: A large majority (66%) did not vote AfD.

 

It is very rare for parties to win >50% of votes cast in 'one-off' elections and centre-based coalition government is the usual outcome. Is this anti-democratic given the circumstances? No. Does it generate the best outcome? Probably not. Is it the best way of electing a government? Open to debate.

[RayC]

17 minutes ago, BigStar said:

Merely an expected negative spin by the leftist NYT.

 

But for a lil' satire now to lighten things up a bit. Here's the solution:

 

UK Prime Minister Recommends Citizens Avoid Stabbings By Submitting To The Holy Koran And Acknowledging Muhammad As The One True Prophet Of Allah, Peace Be Upon Him

 

LONDON — In an official response to the recent unrest in Great Britain, UK Prime Minister Kier Starmer has advised British citizens to avoid getting stabbed by just submitting to the Holy Koran and acknowledging Mohammed as the One True Prophet of Allah, peace be upon him.

 

In his address to the great British public, Starmer noted that it "really isn't that hard" to not get stabbed, always providing that "one is a good Allah-fearing man and not an infidel."

 

"I say, old chaps, just convert to Islam, what what?" Starmer reportedly said, gesturing towards a table where British government officials were handing out burkas and AK-47s.

     --https://babylonbee.com/news/uk-prime-minister-recommends-citizens-avoid-stabbings-by-submitting-to-the-holy-koran-and-acknowledging-mohammed-as-the-one-true-prophet-of-allah-peace-be-upon-him

 

 

That's what's referred to in good old Anglo-Saxon as, "A load of old bullocks" (sic).

[Cameroni]

2 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

Unfortunately the AfD polled well. As the largest party they have earned the right to attempt to form a coalition. However, there is nothing improper or undemocratic about the other parties refusing to join an AfD-led coalition. It certainly doesn't "bypass the will of the people" as you suggest: A large majority (66%) did not vote AfD.

 

It is very rare for parties to win >50% of votes cast in 'one-off' elections and centre-based coalition government is the usual outcome. Is this anti-democratic given the circumstances? No. Does it generate the best outcome? Probably not. Is it the best way of electing a government? Open to debate.

How could they form a coalition when all parties vowed to boycott them? It's impossible.

 

If you have elections and the party that wins the most votes is bypassed after the elections, then there's not much point to vote. All the people who voted for the AfD may as well have thrown their ballot down the toilet. This has nothing to do with democracy.

 

Precisely because it's rare for parties to  win the outright majority and most only get around the 30s when they do well, there should be some reform to stop politicians from forming state governments by the backdoor. This is not democracy. How do you think people feel who voted for the AfD, know they got the most votes, but are, once again totally ignored?

[Gecko123]

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

In Thuringia the AfD won more votes than any party.

 

You might be interested to know that Thuringia was the very first German state to elect an NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party) representative to parliament in 1929. Sad that this dark history has been forgotten by so many.

 

Edited September 2 by Gecko123

[RayC]

3 hours ago, Cameroni said:

How could they form a coalition when all parties vowed to boycott them? It's impossible.

 

If you have elections and the party that wins the most votes is bypassed after the elections, then there's not much point to vote. All the people who voted for the AfD may as well have thrown their ballot down the toilet. This has nothing to do with democracy.

 

Precisely because it's rare for parties to  win the outright majority and most only get around the 30s when they do well, there should be some reform to stop politicians from forming state governments by the backdoor. This is not democracy. How do you think people feel who voted for the AfD, know they got the most votes, but are, once again totally ignored?

 

I imagine that most AfD supporters will feel disappointed that they are unable to form a government but, I repeat, there is nothing undemocratic or untoward about other parties not wishing to be part of an AfD-led coalition. That is their perogative.

 

What the AfD needs to do is win >50% of the votes cast, then there can be no argument about whether they should form a government.

[RayC]

22 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

 

You might be interested to know that Thuringia was the very first German state to elect an NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party) representative to parliament in 1929. Sad that this history seems to have been forgotten by so many.

 

Let's hope that history isn't repeating itself.

[newbee2022]

4 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Turns out my brain predicted things correctly though. In Thuringia the AfD won more votes than any party. Will they form the state government? No. Even though the AfD got the most votes, the CDU, BWS and Linke will form a coalition government, bypassing the will of the voters.

 

Since most parties only get votes in the 34% plus if they did well these days, due to the fragmentation of society and the plethora of parties, there should be an electoral reform. The way things are now governments are formed by backdoor political negotiations. It's got little to do with democracy.

God sake, they are not all extremists like you. The majority is not !

Actually you referring to 1 state, isn't it?

[Cameroni]

1 hour ago, Gecko123 said:

 

You might be interested to know that Thuringia was the very first German state to elect an NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party) representative to parliament in 1929. Sad that this dark history has been forgotten by so many.

 

Actually in the 1929 election in Thuringia, the NSDAP was only the third most successful party and got only 11.29% of the vote. By far the biggest party was the SPD which got 32.30%.

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thüringer_Landtag_(Weimarer_Republik)

 

So really the parallel here and now in 2024 is with the SPD and the AfD. Just like the SPD the AfD got the most votes.  Just like the SPD was ignored then the AfD will most likely be ignored now, and parties that got far less of the vote will form the government.  Through back door dealing.

 

Since this was already going on in 1929 and led to disastrous results, it is quite interesting indeed that in 2024 this formation of a state goverment by the backdoor repeats itself.

 

But it should be made clear that in 1929 Thuringians did not vote for the NSDAP mostly, the party that got the most votes was the SPD.

 

I hate to burst a good "history repeats itself" bubble, but in the following election you will see that the NSDAP received far more votes than in Thuringia in about 20 other voting regions. 

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiterpartei#Wahlerfolge_ab_1930

 

 

[Cameroni]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

 

I imagine that most AfD supporters will feel disappointed that they are unable to form a government but, I repeat, there is nothing undemocratic or untoward about other parties not wishing to be part of an AfD-led coalition. That is their perogative.

 

What the AfD needs to do is win >50% of the votes cast, then there can be no argument about whether they should form a government.

 

Well, the 50% threshhold is unrealistic in modern society. There should be a system which guarantees the party that got the most votes can actually have a prerogative for government formation. 

 

Disenfranchising the biggest voter block was a recipe for disaster in 1929 and it's not a good look in 2024.

[RayC]

2 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Well, the 50% threshhold is unrealistic in modern society. There should be a system which guarantees the party that got the most votes can actually have a prerogative for government formation. 

 

There are plenty of alternative systems e.g. first past the post, STV, etc. All have their flaws 

 

What system would you suggest? 

 

2 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

 

Edited September 2 by RayC
Overlooked a post

[RayC]

3 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

Disenfranchising the biggest voter block was a recipe for disaster in 1929 and it's not a good look in 2024.

 

No voters have been disenfranchised.

[Cameroni]

5 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

No voters have been disenfranchised.

Of course they have, the people who voted for the AfD might as well have flushed their vote down the WC. 

[Cameroni]

31 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

There are plenty of alternative systems e.g. first past the post, STV, etc. All have their flaws 

 

What system would you suggest? 

 

 

Canada's lower house, the US and the UK use FPTP. I would suggest it's far preferable to what is used in Germany. 

[Middle Aged Grouch]

Not surprising, The gang in charge of the EU in Bruxelles is plainly destroying Europe,  with it's identity and culture.

 

Even the moderate voters who never would have dreamed to vote for pro nazi or other far right parties are voting as they are the only ones who are prepared to take appropriate steps to Stop all the migrants comming in. Migrants who very often are involved in heinous crimes or rapes. The sad part is that it is due to a handful of such scum that the entire communities are flagged and given a bad reputation.

 

But the main anger all over Europe is now against America and their sanctions against Russia that are fueling inflation, increasing prices and putting Europe (and the world) in a continuous economic crisis. The only that benefit are those getting the ca$h in Ukraine and those selling the US built weapons all over the place.

 

Let's hope Trump will put and end to the circus, once elected at office ?

Edited September 2 by Middle Aged Grouch

[RayC]

3 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Of course they have, the people who voted for the AfD might as well have flushed their vote down the WC. 

 

Of course they haven't been. Anyone eligible to vote in this election could cast their vote for whatever party they wanted.

 

The AfD won 34% of the vote. They needed 50.1% of the vote to be able to form a government. They fell short and are therefore unable to do so.

 

I really can't understand why you find this simple arithmetic concept so difficult to grasp.

 

However, I do agree that the toilet is probably the best place for AfD votes.

 

[RayC]

3 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Canada's lower house, the US and the UK use FPTP. I would suggest it's far preferable to what is used in Germany. 

 

A matter of opinion of course but I completely disagree. 

 

In the case of the UK, the recently elected Labour government gained 33% of the votes cast, but won 63% of the parliamentary constituencies. How is that fair and democratic?

[Gecko123]

9 hours ago, Cameroni said:

Actually in the 1929 election in Thuringia, the NSDAP was only the third most successful party and got only 11.29% of the vote. By far the biggest party was the SPD which got 32.30%.

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thüringer_Landtag_(Weimarer_Republik)

 

So really the parallel here and now in 2024 is with the SPD and the AfD. Just like the SPD the AfD got the most votes.  Just like the SPD was ignored then the AfD will most likely be ignored now, and parties that got far less of the vote will form the government.  Through back door dealing.

 

Since this was already going on in 1929 and led to disastrous results, it is quite interesting indeed that in 2024 this formation of a state goverment by the backdoor repeats itself.

 

But it should be made clear that in 1929 Thuringians did not vote for the NSDAP mostly, the party that got the most votes was the SPD.

 

I hate to burst a good "history repeats itself" bubble, but in the following election you will see that the NSDAP received far more votes than in Thuringia in about 20 other voting regions. 

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiterpartei#Wahlerfolge_ab_1930

 

 

Very squirrelly response which ignores the point that in 1929 this same German state voted in a politically extreme party which ended up having devastating consequences for Germany, and 100 years later they are doing the same thing again as if they have forgotten the lessons of history.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

 

You might be interested to know that Thuringia was the very first German state to elect an NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers Party) representative to parliament in 1929. Sad that this dark history has been forgotten by so many.

 

Blame the liberals that have been running Germany and botching it, IMO, for that. If they had been doing a good job the AFD would have won nothing IMO. Nothing to do with a "dark history".

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

Very squirrelly response which ignores the point that in 1929 this same German state voted in a politically extreme party which ended up having devastating consequences for Germany, and 100 years later they are doing the same thing again as if they have forgotten the lessons of history.

You appear to be saying that they should vote for a party that has botched the country and is not making their lives better, because of history.

That's not a very convincing argument.

The other parties should come up with better policies.