Marriages To Western Men Cause Of Concern

[garro]

The sky is falling!

The sky is falling!

[Cyberstar]

It seems to me this has less to do with the westerners and more to do with the Karen. Thais don't care if westerners share their money with their Thai fanily to enhance their business. Thais still will control it. I think the fact that Karen may be coming up in the world is what is unacceptable to the Thai.

Of course. There would be no lack of quite many more examples, than just these three, in the area. The lack of mentioning of more than those three particular ones, tells its own tale.

[BAF]

article assumes that the foreign partner has some sense of business acumen.

The assumption must come from observing the average Westerner's standard of living and the average Thai's...

As for the claims of Xenaphobia, yeah well so what? Give me uneducated hillbillies anywhere in the world and I'll give you a pack Xenaphobes to interview for a newpaper interview. You get the good with the bad, even here in Thailand.

So you're saying that Thailand is ruled by uneducated hillbillies (the Thai immigration laws, Foreign Business Act etc come from the ruling THAI elite not from the Karen or any other hill tribe folks)...

And before our Yankee/EU/Australian Brothers and sisters get on and have a go at me, shall I'll just mention Dubai Ports, Chinese textile quotas and Philippine Banana's.

You can go figure out the rest.

Arabs, Chinese and Philippinos can own land and businesses and get PR and citizenship in the USA, Europe and Australia.

Can Americans, Europeans and Australians own land and businesses and get PR and citizenship as easily (or at all) in Dubai, China and the Philippines?

"You can go figure out the rest"...

Edited August 6, 2007 by BAF

[samran]

here we go.....

[TAWP]

Btw, for the record, I'd rather call it 'protectionism' instead of xenophobia.

[chevykanteve]

Quote ''We have effective control measures to prevent any would-be foreign capitalist from taking hold of the local business, which has been run by Karen people in Ruam Mitra community for more than 20 years,'' said Mr Isae.

Would that be another name for Immigration

These Karen people wish to defend their business interests from "foreigners" (=farangs). How long does a Karen live in Thailand before losing the status of "foreigner"? Are they entitled to a but prachachon (Thai ID card)?

[BAF]

here we go.....

Yes, my usual bit of healthy and much needed reality check.

Feel free, as usual, to correct any factual inaccuracy I may have written...

[BAF]

These Karen people wish to defend their business interests from "foreigners" (=farangs). How long does a Karen live in Thailand before losing the status of "foreigner"? Are they entitled to a but prachachon (Thai ID card)?

Check this thread out and what I have written there on this argument: "Thai Children With Foreign Fathers Don't Have Full Citizenship Rights In Thailand"

[asiaexpat]

As a Texan I am sure you remember the warm welcome VietNamese shrimpers received in Texas and Louisian (torched homes and boats that the law ignored.) As for Thai immagrants, one of which I am married to, are restricted by quotas on visa and high investment requirements prior to visa approval. This from life experience as well as a law degree. US laws keep me in Asia where I am accepted based on my ability to add to the community and economically inspired violence is rare.

[samran]

here we go.....

Yes, my usual bit of healthy and much needed reality check.

Feel free, as usual, to correct any factual inaccuracy I may have written...

very funny cause you like to write about about the reality that I and many others live.

But, hey, who am I to let real life get in the way of a rant?

[BAF]

very funny cause you like to write about about the reality that I and many others live.

But, hey, who am I to let real life get in the way of a rant?

Feel free, as usual, to correct any factual inaccuracy I may have written...

...and, as usual, you don't (you can't).

P.S. I have lived for years in Thailand, am married to a Thai, speak its main language and understand its main dialect. And all of that, in many cases, is totally irrelevant.

[samran]

very funny cause you like to write about about the reality that I and many others live.

But, hey, who am I to let real life get in the way of a rant?

Feel free, as usual, to correct any factual inaccuracy I may have written...

...and, as usual, you don't (you can't).

P.S. I have lived for years in Thailand, am married to a Thai, speak its main language and understand its main dialect. And all of that, in many cases, is totally irrelevant.

supposedly I am a second class citizen here according to you.....even with a Thai passport.

[BAF]

As a Texan I am sure you remember the warm welcome VietNamese shrimpers received in Texas and Louisian (torched homes and boats that the law ignored.)

The only online reference I could find is from pulitzer.org and says: "In 1981, arsonists torched two shrimp boats owned by Vietnamese immigrants in Seadrift, Texas, and the Ku Klux Klan held a rally against the Vietnamese in Galveston Bay, Texas, according to ‘‘Gulf Coast Soundings,’’ a book on shrimping by anthropologist Paul Durrenberger."

As for Thai immagrants, one of which I am married to, are restricted by quotas on visa and high investment requirements prior to visa approval. This from life experience as well as a law degree. US laws keep me in Asia where I am accepted based on my ability to add to the community and economically inspired violence is rare.

It isn't clear if you have married a Thai woman who already was an immigrant in the US or you are complaining about the waiting lists to immigrate to the US your Thai wife.

In the latter case, it's been argued to death and what you write is pure BS (and you say you hold a law degree?): there are hundreds of thousands of immigrants waiting to get into the US and immigration on the ground of marriage to a US citizen isn't subjected to quotas, just waiting lists (= she holds a place in a cue and will be called when it's her turn). More details in the relevant threads (for example: Spin Off From story Of My Thai Citizenship Application Thread).

In Thailand's case, on the contrary, THERE INDEED ARE quotas: 100 PRs per year per nationality (compare that to the hundreds of thousands immigrating and eventually getting PR and citizenship in the US or any other Western country of a similar size as Thailand)

In the former case, I am very curious to know more about those "high investment requirements" and how they compare to the ones existing in Thailand (just for your reference, even NON-INVESTORS applicants like married men have to show a combined monthly income of more than five times the average Thai's)...

[BAF]

supposedly I am a second class citizen here according to you.....even with a Thai passport.

You are still not correcting any factual inaccuracy I may have written... Nor here, nor in the thread you are in an inexact and out-of-context way referring to...

[RKASA]

Well, it appears that the report is about one particular community and one particular business - elephant park.

People feel threatened and their reaction is unreasonable. What is so surprising? They've invested years and years of hard work and feel that new sons in law may take over their business.

How would small western business owners react in the same situation - a group of immigrants settles in the area and they look like they want to open new, competing businesses there, or marry their way into existing ones.

Ha ha ha. Just how do you think america was built. Thats just what happened and its OK.

[Dupont]

This pap says as much about the abysmal state of affairs at the Bangkok Post these days as anything else. Do they want rid of all their falang readers?

Thai Journo's are real zeros and this is reflected in their poor standards and non existant countering of any statements made by people they perceive as higher up than them.

Few quick points from a non-journo that a REAL Journalist should have picked up on.

1 If a Westerner wants to make business gains, he/she makes them outside Thailand. Most of us in Thailand are just happy to get by and give the family a leg up, leaving our main income sources outside the clutches of the retards that promote this xenophobia and the dullards that report it verbatim.

2 The growing anxiety is amongst a bunch of no-hoper Thai business owners who couldn't compete (on a business, intelectual level or in cake making contest) with the elephants, let alone foreigners, on a distorted playing field holding the trump cards and having uncle Somchai as referee and uncle PC Teamoneygoodformecrap in charge of moving the goal posts.

3 how can a westerner out perform a thai business with all the hoops we have to jump through, all the visa run costs, the days off work on visa runs, in the labour deparment etc.? The fact that we totally outperform them despite this says more about the Thai Business owners again I'm afraid. Are the cream of the crop of Thai business afraid to compete with a few hilltribe women and their falang hubbies? No story to follow up here?

4 how about running a list of 1,000,000 more viable ways for a falang to make money than try to take over an elephant business and cheat tourists?

Thai journalism at its normal level here.

[lannarebirth]

Well, it appears that the report is about one particular community and one particular business - elephant park.

People feel threatened and their reaction is unreasonable. What is so surprising? They've invested years and years of hard work and feel that new sons in law may take over their business.

How would small western business owners react in the same situation - a group of immigrants settles in the area and they look like they want to open new, competing businesses there, or marry their way into existing ones.

You're usually more perceptive than this Plus. This issue is about Thais keeping their lessers down. In this case the Karen. "Westerners" are just the hammer they're being bliudgeoned with. Thais define themselves by who they're bigger than. Well, if you're not bigger than a lowly Karen, well then, who are you?

[Shah Jahan]

Well, it appears that the report is about one particular community and one particular business - elephant park.

People feel threatened and their reaction is unreasonable. What is so surprising? They've invested years and years of hard work and feel that new sons in law may take over their business.

How would small western business owners react in the same situation - a group of immigrants settles in the area and they look like they want to open new, competing businesses there, or marry their way into existing ones.

You're usually more perceptive than this Plus. This issue is about Thais keeping their lessers down. In this case the Karen. "Westerners" are just the hammer they're being bliudgeoned with. Thais define themselves by who they're bigger than. Well, if you're not bigger than a lowly Karen, well then, who are you?

I live with and am married to a hill tribe woman and really the thais treat the hill tribe people much like the amercains treated the blacks in the 1920's

ie...

the thais really like to be 'Bigger' than the hill tribes and it is a constant source of distress to the big thai majorirty when a Falang marries a Hill tribe because alone we are just trash, but together the thais hold no power over us.

Without knowing the details it is fairly obvious what has happened based on the contrived reporting

--In a certain area there a a few different elephant camps - some owned by Good Thais and some owned by Karens - over the years the Good Thai run Elephant camp ran a tight ship and got most of the business, letting their hill tribe brothers scrape up the crumbs

along comes FALANG who takes the Karen Camp and teaches them good business practices (I am sure it is not for profit and all they did was only invest their own money with little hope for return, but the Falang(s) wants to see the Karen camp do well.

So now the 'Hill Tribe Trash' is making more money than the Good Thai so the Good Thai gets Jealous and gets the authorities involved to blame it all on the Falang (How dare you help my lesser succeed)

Let me translate this article title for you as I am fairly fluent in Thai

"We No Like Smart Falang help Stupid Hill Tribe people, Make them Bigger than Thai"

[Dupont]

Well, it appears that the report is about one particular community and one particular business - elephant park.

People feel threatened and their reaction is unreasonable. What is so surprising? They've invested years and years of hard work and feel that new sons in law may take over their business.

How would small western business owners react in the same situation - a group of immigrants settles in the area and they look like they want to open new, competing businesses there, or marry their way into existing ones.

You're usually more perceptive than this Plus. This issue is about Thais keeping their lessers down. In this case the Karen. "Westerners" are just the hammer they're being bliudgeoned with. Thais define themselves by who they're bigger than. Well, if you're not bigger than a lowly Karen, well then, who are you?

I live with and am married to a hill tribe woman and really the thais treat the hill tribe people much like the amercains treated the blacks in the 1920's

ie...

the thais really like to be 'Bigger' than the hill tribes and it is a constant source of distress to the big thai majorirty when a Falang marries a Hill tribe because alone we are just trash, but together the thais hold no power over us.

Without knowing the details it is fairly obvious what has happened based on the contrived reporting

--In a certain area there a a few different elephant camps - some owned by Good Thais and some owned by Karens - over the years the Good Thai run Elephant camp ran a tight ship and got most of the business, letting their hill tribe brothers scrape up the crumbs

along comes FALANG who takes the Karen Camp and teaches them good business practices (I am sure it is not for profit and all they did was only invest their own money with little hope for return, but the Falang(s) wants to see the Karen camp do well.

So now the 'Hill Tribe Trash' is making more money than the Good Thai so the Good Thai gets Jealous and gets the authorities involved to blame it all on the Falang (How dare you help my lesser succeed)

Let me translate this article title for you as I am fairly fluent in Thai

"We No Like Smart Falang help Stupid Hill Tribe people, Make them Bigger than Thai"

In a nutshell mate! Thats exactly how it is, and the "good pale skinned journo" obviously fell in with the "good Thais", as they were obviously "gooder" as they were whiter and richer!

The other thing lacking was about the 34 ice picks that they use to whack the effalumps in the head with!

Edited August 6, 2007 by Dupont

[farang prince]

Well, it appears that the report is about one particular community and one particular business - elephant park.

People feel threatened and their reaction is unreasonable. What is so surprising? They've invested years and years of hard work and feel that new sons in law may take over their business.

How would small western business owners react in the same situation - a group of immigrants settles in the area and they look like they want to open new, competing businesses there, or marry their way into existing ones.

In the USA, this happens all the time. One that comes to mind is when a group of Vietnamese refugees settled along the Texas and Louisiana coastline and then began competing with Americans in the shrimping business. Along the Gulf Coast, generations of Americans had been involved in shrimping. They felt the Vietnamese were intruding in an area where they did not belong. It was not a pretty scene but eventually the situation was resolved. Today Vietnamese and American families co-exist and compete on an equal footing.

[BAF]

Well, it appears that the report is about one particular community and one particular business - elephant park.

People feel threatened and their reaction is unreasonable. What is so surprising? They've invested years and years of hard work and feel that new sons in law may take over their business.

How would small western business owners react in the same situation - a group of immigrants settles in the area and they look like they want to open new, competing businesses there, or marry their way into existing ones.

In the USA, this happens all the time. One that comes to mind is when a group of Vietnamese refugees settled along the Texas and Louisiana coastline and then began competing with Americans in the shrimping business. Along the Gulf Coast, generations of Americans had been involved in shrimping. They felt the Vietnamese were intruding in an area where they did not belong. It was not a pretty scene but eventually the situation was resolved. Today Vietnamese and American families co-exist and compete on an equal footing.

I fail to see the similarities between what happens in Thailand and what happens "all the time" in the USA (or any other Western country for that matter).

As you say, in the US the situation in the end gets resolved and everyone co-exist and compete on an equal footing, where is that happening in Thailand??

The exact opposite is true, and the situation is WORSENING (see the latest changes in immigration and business laws, regulations, their interpretations and actual implementations...).

[RKASA]

Well, it appears that the report is about one particular community and one particular business - elephant park.

People feel threatened and their reaction is unreasonable. What is so surprising? They've invested years and years of hard work and feel that new sons in law may take over their business.

How would small western business owners react in the same situation - a group of immigrants settles in the area and they look like they want to open new, competing businesses there, or marry their way into existing ones.

In the USA, this happens all the time. One that comes to mind is when a group of Vietnamese refugees settled along the Texas and Louisiana coastline and then began competing with Americans in the shrimping business. Along the Gulf Coast, generations of Americans had been involved in shrimping. They felt the Vietnamese were intruding in an area where they did not belong. It was not a pretty scene but eventually the situation was resolved. Today Vietnamese and American families co-exist and compete on an equal footing.

Most of the problem back then in Texas was the Viet did not understand the rules and fished anytime anywhere and took everything the got. After they learned the lease and contact grounds seasons and limits things got better. Still today many new comers don't understand things like this that is why around Seattle you still find fishing rules posted at docks in five languages including Thai. And yes my wife has paided a few tickets concerning limits over the past 35 years.

[Martin]

Throughout this thread, there seems to be an underlying idea that "one size should fit all countries" as far as immigration rules are concerned.

And, of course, that size should be the one that we grew up regarding as 'chiselled in stone'.

But should Thailand be expected to welcome immigrants in the way that it was to the advantage of England, the USA and Australia to welcome hard-working, skilled immigrants in the past?

(Note that I said 'England', and not the UK, as England drew on the Scots, Irish and Welsh, as well as the Flemish, German Jews etc.)

IMO, Thailand is as much vulnerable to being harmed by immigration as England etc were in a position to gain from it.

But having got an advantageous set of 'rules in' place (from 'Come, and Welcome' at one extreme in one set of circumstances to 'No Foreigners Admitted' at the other end in different circumstances) those 'rules' soon become the general idea of "What is Right", rather than "What is Expeditious for Us in Our Circumstances").

What is the 'right', however, alters when the circumstances alter, and then there is all sorts of argy-bargy as people get offended that those 'chiselled in stone' ideas that were implanted in them in childhood appear to being desecrated.

When farang men start marrying Karen (or Isaan) women, central-region Thais can hardly be expected to be undisturbed.

To simply dismiss all manifestations of those inner disturbances of their ideas of 'what is right and proper' as xenophobia will get us and the Thais and Karens and Northeasterners no further forward.

Mutual understanding stems from 'seeing where the other one is coming from'.

I recommend the book by Niels Mulder: "Thai Images, the culture of the public world" as an exposition of how modern Thais know and debate about their society, from the mish mash of 'social studies' that they get at the various stages of schooling from elementary to university, from their press, and from contemporary fiction.

[skiman1]

Why do foriegners always winge about the xenophobic nationalistic attitude of Thais?

something to do with the fact that there is a xenophobic attitude - which would be called Racism elsewhere - wise up

[Jersey_UK]

"We No Like Smart Falang help Stupid Hill Tribe people, Make them Bigger than Thai"

This sums up nicely my take on this article. Made me smile at thought of the boot going on the other foot

Some of you may have read in my past posts that I am not exactly crazy about Thailand and I have no intention of ever moving to the place, if I can help it.........but one of the few things that I do admire the Thais for is what many Farang call their Xenophobia and Nationalism.

"Rights"??? Just because Farangland showers everybody and their dog with "Rights" does not make this attitude.........."right" - in many cases it is an approach that is as dumb as donuts here in Farangland.

Not to say that the way protectionism / Thai first is practiced is exactly bright and IMO it is also self defeating, but IMO the problems with Thailand run deeper than this. In any event they are simply not in a position at the moment to compete with a UK style open borders investment / sell the family silver type economy..........no matter how inconveniant this is for Farang who want to live somewhere warm and sunny..........and cheaper than home.

[BAF]

Throughout this thread, there seems to be an underlying idea that "one size should fit all countries" as far as immigration rules are concerned.

And, of course, that size should be the one that we grew up regarding as 'chiselled in stone'.

But should Thailand be expected to welcome immigrants in the way that it was to the advantage of England, the USA and Australia to welcome hard-working, skilled immigrants in the past?

(Note that I said 'England', and not the UK, as England drew on the Scots, Irish and Welsh, as well as the Flemish, German Jews etc.)

IMO, Thailand is as much vulnerable to being harmed by immigration as England etc were in a position to gain from it.

But having got an advantageous set of 'rules in' place (from 'Come, and Welcome' at one extreme in one set of circumstances to 'No Foreigners Admitted' at the other end in different circumstances) those 'rules' soon become the general idea of "What is Right", rather than "What is Expeditious for Us in Our Circumstances").

What is the 'right', however, alters when the circumstances alter, and then there is all sorts of argy-bargy as people get offended that those 'chiselled in stone' ideas that were implanted in them in childhood appear to being desecrated.

When farang men start marrying Karen (or Isaan) women, central-region Thais can hardly be expected to be undisturbed.

To simply dismiss all manifestations of those inner disturbances of their ideas of 'what is right and proper' as xenophobia will get us and the Thais and Karens and Northeasterners no further forward.

Mutual understanding stems from 'seeing where the other one is coming from'.

I recommend the book by Niels Mulder: "Thai Images, the culture of the public world" as an exposition of how modern Thais know and debate about their society, from the mish mash of 'social studies' that they get at the various stages of schooling from elementary to university, from their press, and from contemporary fiction.

Martin, the underlying idea of your post is that each country should do what it's best for itself and what it's best for one country isn't necessary the best for another. All fair and well but...

...while Thailand IS ruthlessly doing what it (its ruling class, that is) thinks it's best for itself disregarding basic human rights like that of being able to live with one's family and children, the Western countries ARE NOT doing what it's best for themselves and that's exactly because of those very same basic human rights (The declaration of the Universal Human Rights is, sadly, a product of just the Western civilization, it's not a shared accomplishment of the human race in its entirety) which we believe in and try to adhere to whenever and however possible.

Are you familiar with the condition in Thailand of the LEGAL immigrant workers from countries like Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia etc? The "Land of Smiles" doesn't allow foreign workers any automatic PR (and eventual citizenship) nor allow them to reunite with their spouses and children (like Western countries do), Thailand just exploits them and send them back home when it no longer needs them.

In certain cases (do "Phuket laws" ring any bell?) the treatment they get is illegal by internation conventions and resemble that of the Soviet gulags (they aren't allowed to leave the place of work, aren't allowed out of their accomodation at night, aren't allowed to have mobile phones etc).

If Western countries were to apply the same set of rules as Thailand to legal foreign migrant workers in our own countries we would be immensely better off and we were truly be doing what's in our best interest!

What do we do instead? Extend to foreign workers the benefits of our welfare states and treat them like we do our own citizens (work any job, own land, buy any thing etc), make and enforce anti-racism and anti-discrimination laws, grant them PRs and citizenships, allow them to reunite with their spouses and children and extend the benefits of our welfare states to them too etc etc etc

Near where I live I know of many Albanian and Moroccan families of 5-6 people each where for just 1 or 2 working people for family the Italian govt is paying welfare state benefits and services for the whole family (they are ALL legal)! They are a NET LOSS for Italy while if we were to disregard our "stupid" values and principles (which nobody else truly share nor practice in this world) and treat them like Thailand does they would be a NETT GAIN for Italy (only those 1-2 working people would be staying here and they would be sent back home once they are not needed anymore...).

And what about the Thais here? Almost all of them are women, most DO NOT work and just spend hubby's money and practically all of them is regularly sending money back home... They are, again, a NETT LOSS for Italy.

They wouldn't be here if Italy had the same set of rules concerning married foreigners as Thailand.

All of those people are allowed here just for humanitarian reasons and not because they benefit Italy, they DON'T.

Think it through, Martin, and let's hear what you have to say now....

All I have to add is what I always say when comparing our GFs'/BFs'/spouses' homecountry with our own: the only effective way to deal with the problems foreigners have in our home countries and that we have in foreign countries is RECIPROCATING the s.hit we get anywhere in the world outside of our tiny, fragile Western bubble of civilization. And if that means kicking out of my home country my Thai wife because we don't have a combined monthly income of 6/7 times the average Italian wage (as Thailand does), so be it.

Reciprocating Thailand's (among other things) immi and ownership rules it is (or should be...) very clear what Thailand would lose but what exactly do we stand to lose (provided they wouldn't quickly do an about face when realized we are serious about it)?

Edited August 6, 2007 by BAF

[petercool]

I have always understood that Thai immigration and business regulations were historically and primarily aimed at potentially large Chinese influxes and not specifically targeting Westerners.

That's point one.

Point two : it is Karens not Thais that seem to wish to protect their somewhat unique social, economic and cultural situation in this instance.

Point three: that the Karens in Thailand have no proper status here probably makes them circle the wagons even more than they otherwise might.

Point four: there are few "universal rights" and each country chooses what their rules are. I can live with that in preference to a "new world order".

[gjones]

The wedding was not a problem, but he wanted the elephant camp's owners to make sure there was no foreign dominance of the business or unfair treatment of tourists, especially overcharging for tours on elephant back.

So it's ok that the Thai's can charge foreigners 10 times more than Thais to enter National Parks!

[BAF]

I have always understood that Thai immigration and business regulations were historically and primarily aimed at potentially large Chinese influxes and not specifically targeting Westerners.

That's point one.

Wrong, Thai-Chinese make up much of the middle class and are succesfully infiltrating the real elite ruling class, Thai-Chinese have very recently had their shot as top rulers with Thaksin.

Point two : it is Karens not Thais that seem to wish to protect their somewhat unique social, economic and cultural situation in this instance.

Wrong, the extremely protectionistic business laws and the very restrictive immigration laws are made by the Thais not by the Karens.

Point three: that the Karens in Thailand have no proper status here probably makes them circle the wagons even more than they otherwise might.

?

I am guessing you have a pretty poor understanding of Thailand's class system...

Point four: there are few "universal rights" and each country chooses what their rules are. I can live with that in preference to a "new world order".

What do you mean by this meaningless sounding buzzword? A "world order" in which, for example, women and ethnic minorities aren't discriminated and where the spouse of a country's citizen is allowed to immigrate and granted PR and citizenship even when it doesn't make economic sense and just because of a very basic matter of humanity?

Why would that be a bad thing?

Personally, I would love to see a "world order" not handicapped by useless and dangerous Political Correctness... Let's call a spade a spade and ACT ACCORDINGLY!

[jumnien]

I'm sipping a bit of tea and watching television this morning as I look out the window and watch of kind Thai gentleman mowing the green of the 10th hole. I fail to see exactly how the vicious Thais are discriminating against me? Gotta go, the Thai maid is bringing me my newspaper!