How To Show Income For Marriage O, Without Tax Documents?

[cmsoulbrother]

I'm looking to extend my current Non O on marriage into a year, and after getting the pamphlet from immigration, I'm a bit confused at how I am supposed to prove my income. I'm not retired, and yet I haven't resided in my home country for a number of years, and as such have no tax obligation there. I work over the internet, and have been counting myself very lucky as I owe no taxes to anyone (I think!). BUT this seems to be a bit of a problem for me now! I was assuming that I could just show my bank book as proof of regular transferance of funds from abroad, but I am now not so sure.

If I am working, but as I am working remotely and freelance, and have no tax records, can I still show my income as support to get a non O marriage visa? If I am working over the internet for companies abroad while residing in Thailand, am I required to pay income taxes here?

Thank you

[Krub]

I'm looking to extend my current Non O on marriage into a year, and after getting the pamphlet from immigration, I'm a bit confused at how I am supposed to prove my income. I'm not retired, and yet I haven't resided in my home country for a number of years, and as such have no tax obligation there. I work over the internet, and have been counting myself very lucky as I owe no taxes to anyone (I think!). BUT this seems to be a bit of a problem for me now! I was assuming that I could just show my bank book as proof of regular transferance of funds from abroad, but I am now not so sure.

If I am working, but as I am working remotely and freelance, and have no tax records, can I still show my income as support to get a non O marriage visa? If I am working over the internet for companies abroad while residing in Thailand, am I required to pay income taxes here?

Thank you

If you can satisfy your Embassy with evidence that will enable them to give you a letter stating your income, there is no need for tax receipts

[nidge]

I am in the same situation right now. I asked immigration what i should do and they told me i needed to get a letter from my employer stating i get a regular income, then take thaqt to the British embassy for endorsement. That should be enough.

[Krub]

I am in the same situation right now. I asked immigration what i should do and they told me i needed to get a letter from my employer stating i get a regular income, then take thaqt to the British embassy for endorsement. That should be enough.

The Embassy will write a letter (cost is 2.448 baht) saying that you have shown them evidence of a monthly income of XXX bhat.

This is the letter immigration will keep or keep a copy and give you back the original.

The employment letter should be kept and shown as evidence if requested by immigration

[sua yai]

It seems to me from my local Imm Office that the 40k must be generated from abroad (obviously), but has also got to be deposited in Thailand.

[sua yai]

Our wires got crossed Krub,

Of course the Brit Embassy will give you a document certifying income for a lot of money.

That isn't the problem.

The fact is, from my Imm Office, they want to see the income, minimum 40k per month, coming into Thailand.

This is where I have a big problem. Surely if I demonstrate that I have the funds, that should be enough?

But, no it's not.

I can have a million times the required income, but Thailand wants to see it here - at least in my case.

It just exasperates me that when I can prove everything the authorities here want to see regarding income and other requirements, they then turn round and tell me where I should do my banking.

Rant over. Sorry.

[Big A]

The Embassy will write a letter (cost is 2.448 baht)

Good God. Have these bloodsuckers no shame at all? Top lawyers (and some cheaper barristers) in London would charge this for a well constructed, thought-out letter.

I hate even passing that place on a bus!!

[whopper]

face the facts, there is an agenda and they are making it difficult for farang to live here.

[samran]

Our wires got crossed Krub,

Of course the Brit Embassy will give you a document certifying income for a lot of money.

That isn't the problem.

The fact is, from my Imm Office, they want to see the income, minimum 40k per month, coming into Thailand.

This is where I have a big problem. Surely if I demonstrate that I have the funds, that should be enough?

But, no it's not.

I can have a million times the required income, but Thailand wants to see it here - at least in my case.

It just exasperates me that when I can prove everything the authorities here want to see regarding income and other requirements, they then turn round and tell me where I should do my banking.

Rant over. Sorry.

there is the little matter of tax unfortunately. It isn't that they don't want you here as some other posters have suggested. The revenue department is pretty clear on this matter, the portion of income earnt offshore which is repatriated to Thailand in the same tax year is liable for tax in Thailand if you are resident here (ie live here more than 183 days).

If you can support your wife - which I am sure you can - by definition you are bringing money into Thailand.

Sounds to be a bit similar as to how I used to be able to extend my UK temp residency permit with the Home Office. Show that I had earnt income in the UK (and paid tax on it) and the home office would extend my visa.

You can't escape it....death and taxes.

[sua yai]

samran,

Are you saying that any money I bring into this country is liable for tax in Thailand?

By that I mean I don't have a Thai bank account. I've always lived off money abroad, drawn from any ATM or bank here.

Surely, Thailand can't tax me again on what I already have been back home?

However, if I transfer 40k a month to XYZ bank here, they'll tax me on deposits?

[asiaexpat]

I'm looking to extend my current Non O on marriage into a year, and after getting the pamphlet from immigration, I'm a bit confused at how I am supposed to prove my income. I'm not retired, and yet I haven't resided in my home country for a number of years, and as such have no tax obligation there. I work over the internet, and have been counting myself very lucky as I owe no taxes to anyone (I think!). BUT this seems to be a bit of a problem for me now! I was assuming that I could just show my bank book as proof of regular transferance of funds from abroad, but I am now not so sure.

If I am working, but as I am working remotely and freelance, and have no tax records, can I still show my income as support to get a non O marriage visa? If I am working over the internet for companies abroad while residing in Thailand, am I required to pay income taxes here?

Thank you

cmsoulbrother,

I suggest you consult a lawyer straightway to clear up your tax evasion problem. He can explain that the Thai tax code requires you to pay taxes on your global income unless it is exempted. Income is imcome reagrdless of whre it was earned and some government wants thier share. Working over the internet does not exempt income from taxation. You may also need a work permit. Good luck.

[samran]

samran,

Are you saying that any money I bring into this country is liable for tax in Thailand?

By that I mean I don't have a Thai bank account. I've always lived off money abroad, drawn from any ATM or bank here.

Surely, Thailand can't tax me again on what I already have been back home?

However, if I transfer 40k a month to XYZ bank here, they'll tax me on deposits?

Bank account or no bank account. You are legally obliged to report it if you live here more than half the year. It is income after all. The tax man is the tax man, and apart from a few silly blind eyes to Thaksin and Tamasek, for most of us, the tax man is pretty efficient at what he needs to get.

From: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

1. Taxable Person

Taxpayers are classified into "resident" and "non-resident". "Resident" means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand on a cash basis, regardless where the money is paid, as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand.

In other words, if a non-Thai entity pays you to an account overseas then it isn't taxable, unless you bring it in to Thailand.

eg. You live in Thailand. A HK registered company pays you $100K a year into Jersey. No tax so far as they are both low tax juristictions. You bring in $30K per year for your living expense in Thailand. Technically, you pay the going rate of income tax on that $30K in Thailand.

[samran]

I need to clarify one thing Sua Yai.

Income earnt offshore and transfered into LOS in the same year is taxable.

Savings which are bought in (ie money you've had for more than 1 year) is NOT taxable if bought in. A fine line, but distinct one.

[sua yai]

Thanks Samran,

The thing is that this country has never let me stay here longer than that magic 90 days at a time.

They keep giving me a hard time regarding my extension.

Tax wise, maybe we're better off this way? I doubt it. Where there's a will there's a way - legally.

[samran]

Thanks Samran,

The thing is that this country has never let me stay here longer than that magic 90 days at a time.

They keep giving me a hard time regarding my extension.

Tax wise, maybe we're better off this way? I doubt it. Where there's a will there's a way - legally.

No probs.

for tax purposes visa's have nothing to do with it. If you are physically present in Thailand for more than 180 days you are a tax resident. If this means you are here in 6 seperate 30 day entries over the tax year (Jan to Dec), then any income earnt here or bought in, needs to be reported..

Best thing to do for you is set up two different piles of money. One for income which doesn't get touched for the first year and a savings pile which you bring into Thailand.

I'd also check out posts by one of our members 'rainman'. He seems pretty cluded on. Swiss guy, earns offshore, proved his offshore income and even managed to get himself a credit card.

[Cyberstar]

Income earnt offshore and transfered into LOS in the same year is taxable.

Savings which are bought in (ie money you've had for more than 1 year) is NOT taxable if bought in. A fine line, but distinct one.

... and that fine line was the catch, when they changed the rule so that 400,000 in the bank no longer suffices for a non-imm O wife dependent extension. Those funds could be savings from previous years, but now the money you bring in has to be declared as income as to count for visa extension.

[samran]

Income earnt offshore and transfered into LOS in the same year is taxable.

Savings which are bought in (ie money you've had for more than 1 year) is NOT taxable if bought in. A fine line, but distinct one.

... and that fine line was the catch, when they changed the rule so that 400,000 in the bank no longer suffices for a non-imm O wife dependent extension. Those funds could be savings from previous years, but now the money you bring in has to be declared as income as to count for visa extension.

good spot...

[sua yai]

So, the 40k I bring into this country (because Imm say I must, rather than just prove the income through an Embassy confirmatory letter and supporting documents) every month, is taxable here?

Can't be surely?

[astral]

In other words, if a non-Thai entity pays you to an account overseas then it isn't taxable, unless you bring it in to Thailand.

eg. You live in Thailand. A HK registered company pays you $100K a year into Jersey. No tax so far as they are both low tax juristictions. You bring in $30K per year for your living expense in Thailand. Technically, you pay the going rate of income tax on that $30K in Thailand.

Not necessarily.

Many countries have dual tax agreements with Thailand.

As long as you can show that the money was declared for tax overseas, even if it was a very low rate,

then you are not liable for a second grab of tax in Thailand.

I have had this discussion with my local tax office in Sri Racha.

I went armed with the relevant document from the UK Stationery Office.

The senior lady was not happy but had to concede the point.

[samran]

In other words, if a non-Thai entity pays you to an account overseas then it isn't taxable, unless you bring it in to Thailand.

eg. You live in Thailand. A HK registered company pays you $100K a year into Jersey. No tax so far as they are both low tax juristictions. You bring in $30K per year for your living expense in Thailand. Technically, you pay the going rate of income tax on that $30K in Thailand.

Not necessarily.

Many countries have dual tax agreements with Thailand.

As long as you can show that the money was declared for tax overseas, even if it was a very low rate,

then you are not liable for a second grab of tax in Thailand.

I have had this discussion with my local tax office in Sri Racha.

I went armed with the relevant document from the UK Stationery Office.

The senior lady was not happy but had to concede the point.

hmm, my understanding of it was slightly different. ie. If the tax rate was 30c in the $1 here in Thailand, and you had already paid say 25c of tax in Farang land, then the double tax treaty would mean that Thailand would only take the extra 5c.

Sounds like I was wrong!

[K2K]

Interesting and insightful thread ... and a depressing one as well.

So now the whole focus will be on hitting Johnny farang for income tax on monies remitted to Thailand - can see the exodus that will ensue if they pull this stunt.

[samran]

Interesting and insightful thread ... and a depressing one as well.

So now the whole focus will be on hitting Johnny farang for income tax on monies remitted to Thailand - can see the exodus that will ensue if they pull this stunt.

I think you'll find that every country has a similar approach. The taxman always come-eths with his hand out.

From what I see, Thailand has very similar rules on this tax matter as the UK. Resident but non demociled foreigners in the UK aren't liable for tax on offshore earnings unless they are repatriated into the UK.

Its actually a perfered system to say Australia where I am from . If resident there, you are liable for income on your world wide earnings, whether bought into Australia or not AFAIK.

[K2K]

Why set an amount of 40k THB/month when less than 20% of working Thai's earn this kind of salery?

<H1 class=page-title>Average Thai Wages per Month</H1>Source: National Statistical Office, First Quarter, 2005

Employment Description or PositionSalary in THBFishing2,968Agriculture, hunting and forestry3,019Private households with employed persons4,068Construction4,706Hotels and restaurants5,680Other community and social work6,311Manufacturing6,420Wholesale and retail trade, repair business6,760Mining and quarrying7,646Real estate, renting and business activities9,571Health and social work10,804Public administration and defense11,375Transport, storage and communication11,752Education14,883Electricity, gas and water supply17,841Financial intermediation19,325

Source: Board of Investment

Employment Description or PositionSalary in THBHousekeeper6,532Driver8,528Office staff15,222Public relations staff16,635Sales/marketing staff23,785Researcher (Thai)24,722Engineering26,051Executive Secretary32,296PC Programmer22,000-35,000Web Designer25,000-35,000System Analyst40,000-45,000Office Manager47,994Webmaster45,000-60,000Personnel/HRD director71,222Plant manager73,396IT Manager90,000-150,000

Source: Board of Investment

Minimum Daily Wage, by LocationSalary in THBBangkok170Phuket168Phang Nga145Ranong143

Source: http://www.d-trac.org/en/average_thai_wages

OK this data is 2 years old, but even say adding 10% its only the very senior positions that earn more than that. Regardless these salery expectations for marriage are social filtering and to the detriment of long term family stability.

Sorry the post seems to have messed up the spacing. Click on link for the stats.

Edited August 8, 2007 by K2K

[Filer]

Interesting and insightful thread ... and a depressing one as well.

So now the whole focus will be on hitting Johnny farang for income tax on monies remitted to Thailand - can see the exodus that will ensue if they pull this stunt.

I think you'll find that every country has a similar approach. The taxman always come-eths with his hand out.

From what I see, Thailand has very similar rules on this tax matter as the UK. Resident but non demociled foreigners in the UK aren't liable for tax on offshore earnings unless they are repatriated into the UK.

Its actually a perfered system to say Australia where I am from . If resident there, you are liable for income on your world wide earnings, whether bought into Australia or not AFAIK.

The position in the UK (for a resident but 'non-domiciled' foreigner) is as stated above, but if fact even more severe than that. The default position of the UK tax authorities is that if such a person transfers any money into the UK through the banking system it is automatically considered as income (and thus subject to UK income tax) UNLESS the transfer is made by the remitting bank specifically as a 'capital transfer' or 'savings transfer'. In other words you are guilty, in terms of tax liability, unless you can prove otherwise. I hate to think of this being applied in Thailand.

I'll give you a recent example of someone I know in London, a Frenchman running the UK subsidiary of his French-based employers, resident and working in London but not long-term 'domiciled' there.

This person decided that, rather than continuing to rent a house in London, he would buy one, since he felt inclined to stay in London for some time. He worked out the logistics of this with the international firm of accountants which his employers uses world-wide. He transferred some 2 million pounds sterling from his French savings into his UK bank account for the house purchase, and bought the house. (It seems a lot, but I assure you that in the 'posh' parts of west London, such as Kensington, prices for a family house essentially are 1 million sterling upwards.)

When it came to the time for his annual tax filing with the UK tax authorities, to determine his year-end UK tax situation, he had the same firm of international accountants prepare his papers for submission. He was shocked to see that they had included the transfer of 2 million pounds from France as income, with a tax liability on this of 40% (top rate of UK tax) or Pounds 800,000. They told him that since his UK bank account record showed money coming in from outside the country, they were obliged to report it as income, since there was no documentation from the transmitting bank that it was from a savings source or had borne tax in France.

Essentially the accountants had screwed up by not advising him of the correct procedure (transfer it specifically as a capital/savings transfer). Fortunately he had enough leverage as a top executive over his company's accountants (backed up by the threat of personally suing them for negligence) to force them at their expense to follow the paper trail back and retroactively get the proper documentation set up.

Imagine the complexities if Thailand moved in this direction. How would you demonstrate that incoming transfers were not current-year income?

[jackr]

If they want to tax me on savings brought in they can give me a &lt;deleted&gt;' work permit and PR first!

[fosco]

The Embassy will write a letter (cost is 2.448 baht)

Good God. Have these bloodsuckers no shame at all? Top lawyers (and some cheaper barristers) in London would charge this for a well constructed, thought-out letter.

I hate even passing that place on a bus!!

  I'd like the name of that barrister   

[geoffphuket]

Although agreeing with previous posts regarding tax libilities, ins't it the case that immigration only need see the letter from your Embassy showing 40k month income? I've not read anywhere them asking for tax documents as well.

[astral]

All good reasons for banking and saving in an offshore tax haven,

not that that help with convincing Immigration that you have an income of 40K for the visa.

[higgy88]

The subject under discussion here about the taxation of funds brought into Thailand is covered under what is called a Tax Treaty between two countries. I have the tax treaty between Thailand and the US, which was signed by the two governments on Nov 26, 1996 and became effective Jan 1, 1998, if anyone is interested to download it, and as far as I know it is still valid. It is a legal document and definately not light reading. The basic premise is that income that is taxable in the US shall not be considered taxable in Thailand. It doesn't matter how much tax is paid, only that the income is considered taxable in only one country, not both. My Thai wife and I both file joint tax returns for both the US and Thailand every year. I had had a very nice talk with the tax office here a number of years ago, and armed with this paper presented my case that the income I brought into Thailand was not taxable, and I have had no problems since then. For you guys from other countries, there are probably similiar tax treaties with Thailand, and you should check them out so you do not have to pay additional income taxes to Thailand. But as it has been said, you can pretty much count on some gov't having their hands out trying to get a piece of your money.

thailand_tax_treaty.pdf

Edited August 9, 2007 by higgy88

[FatBoyEric]

I spoke to several visa agents in Pattaya at the weekend concerning the application of a Marriage visa. For between 24,500 & 40,000 baht they will guarantee you a visa with no supporting documentation other than passports/id cards/marriage certificates & a few photos of you with your spouse. They do not require evidence of income, evidence of income tax paid or vast amounts of monies in banks. I can only assume from this that they have a 'friend' in the govt. who can 'fix' things. This is Thailand.