Tourists Attacked On Koh Samui

[limbos]

The Thai reputation for mercurial temperament is richly deserved, probably as much as their apparent unwillingness to accept responsibility for the consequences when such behaviour lurches into stupid violence. Still, it is their way after all and I suppose every young falang tourist should understand that unlike in their own countries, with the possible exception of the USA which is a separate case, minor contretemps here can escalate fatally irregardless of culpability.

If it were not for the timely intervention of my wife, I too may have been fodder for the songthiaw driver at whom I had scoffed volubly when he sought to extract 300bt for a journey 'twixt Chaweng and Bophut. Doubtless, the partisan Highdiver would have deemed such culturally offensive behaviour on my part to be worthy of a good slashing or perhaps just minor flesh wounds would have sufficed ?

The Gent,

Very nice way of phrasing your POV. I guess it also doesn't help that 'loss of face' and 'kreng jai' are predominant in the Thai culture and won't help to sort things out in a customer friendly service way or in general benefit in a way to sort things out at all.

[Charma]

Doubtless, the partisan Highdiver would have deemed such culturally offensive behaviour on my part to be worthy of a good slashing or perhaps just minor flesh wounds would have sufficed ?

Highdiver is not partisan, he is merely representing the much maligned "Yellow Slasher" Taxi service. How dare these arrogant tourists moan about a few knife wounds!

[highdiver]

The Thai reputation for mercurial temperament is richly deserved, probably as much as their apparent unwillingness to accept responsibility for the consequences when such behaviour lurches into stupid violence. Still, it is their way after all and I suppose every young falang tourist should understand that unlike in their own countries, with the possible exception of the USA which is a separate case, minor contretemps here can escalate fatally irregardless of culpability.

If it were not for the timely intervention of my wife, I too may have been fodder for the songthiaw driver at whom I had scoffed volubly when he sought to extract 300bt for a journey 'twixt Chaweng and Bophut. Doubtless, the partisan Highdiver would have deemed such culturally offensive behaviour on my part to be worthy of a good slashing or perhaps just minor flesh wounds would have sufficed ?

A sharp tongue is no indication of a keen mind.

highdiver would have deemed that your observations as well as your assumptions of the thai behaviour or culture are at the least an undesputable recognition of your splendidly patronising colonialist obsession with the mysterious orient, and at the most a representation of arrogant false suprriority complex generated by the false assumtion"I am a westerner hence i am superior and smarter".

please dont let your education interfere with your igonrence..

it is unfourtunate that for a significant minority, rest and relaxation mutates into drunken belligerence, a disrespect for local customs, public displays of cultural imaturity and an earnest search for oblivion.

the good fortune is that your wife was with you as the saying goes"behind every man there is a very surprised woman" in your case i am sure she was very surprised.

[highdiver]

Doubtless, the partisan Highdiver would have deemed such culturally offensive behaviour on my part to be worthy of a good slashing or perhaps just minor flesh wounds would have sufficed ?

Highdiver is not partisan, he is merely representing the much maligned "Yellow Slasher" Taxi service. How dare these arrogant tourists moan about a few knife wounds!

Anyone who told you to be yourself couldn't have given you worse advice.

[the gent]

If expressing a marked reluctance to be shafted by a rapacious member of the lower orders purportedly offering a service constitutes a " lack of respect for local customs " then I suppose I am guilty of what Highdiver seems to define as cultural insensitivity but frankly only a simpering " Lonely Planet " devotee could possibly lose any sleep over it.

Highdiver, rest assured there is nothing false about my superiority which is founded upon many qualities but I am pleased to say none of them is racially based. Nevertheless, I take some comfort from the fact that the chip on your shoulder has not totally impaired your ability to recognise your betters when they post.

[highdiver]

If expressing a marked reluctance to be shafted by a rapacious member of the lower orders purportedly offering a service constitutes a " lack of respect for local customs " then I suppose I am guilty of what Highdiver seems to define as cultural insensitivity but frankly only a simpering " Lonely Planet " devotee could possibly lose any sleep over it.

Highdiver, rest assured there is nothing false about my superiority which is founded upon many qualities but I am pleased to say none of them is racially based. Nevertheless, I take some comfort from the fact that the chip on your shoulder has not totally impaired your ability to recognise your betters when they post.

As per racism, I rest my case.

As per your superiority

qulities as dispalyed by your former post would indicate no such thing apart from an agile and abnormal forigner, possessed by the mania of grandeur. we can only give tribute to your wife for saving you from yoursef.

your control of the key board suugest nothing elsse then a sophistical rhetorician, inebriated with the exuberance of his own verbosity, and gifted with an egotistical imagination that can at all times command an interminable and consistent series of racist, false supiriority arguments and to glorify himself.

If ignorance of other cultures is bliss, you must be orgasmic.

As for recognising my betters?

Your verbosity is exceeded only by your modesty.

[Pattaya_Fox]

This topic is about tourist attacks and NOT about personal attacks and comments made against each other.

Please keep posts in line with the topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

[Charma]

To get back on topic -

Highdiver, perhaps you could clarify your position by simply stating that it is NOT an acceptable situation for tourists who refuse to pay an exhorbitant and unlawful taxi fare, to be stabbed for their trouble (even if one were to accept that they "gave a bit of lip" in the process). I do understand your general desire to balance things out a bit and put over a "thai" point of view, but perhaps there are more deserving cases than this one. Most Thai people I know would not seek to justify this guys actions. By all means advise people against picking arguments with unknown and unpredictable locals, but please don't make it sound like an excuse for attempted murder.

[SamuiJens]

To get back on topic -

Highdiver, perhaps you could clarify your position by simply stating that it is NOT an acceptable situation for tourists who refuse to pay an exhorbitant and unlawful taxi fare, to be stabbed for their trouble (even if one were to accept that they "gave a bit of lip" in the process). I do understand your general desire to balance things out a bit and put over a "thai" point of view, but perhaps there are more deserving cases than this one. Most Thai people I know would not seek to justify this guys actions. By all means advise people against picking arguments with unknown and unpredictable locals, but please don't make it sound like an excuse for attempted murder.

Good post, Charma!

[highdiver]

To get back on topic -

Highdiver, perhaps you could clarify your position by simply stating that it is NOT an acceptable situation for tourists who refuse to pay an exhorbitant and unlawful taxi fare, to be stabbed for their trouble (even if one were to accept that they "gave a bit of lip" in the process). I do understand your general desire to balance things out a bit and put over a "thai" point of view, but perhaps there are more deserving cases than this one. Most Thai people I know would not seek to justify this guys actions. By all means advise people against picking arguments with unknown and unpredictable locals, but please don't make it sound like an excuse for attempted murder.

Charma

thanks for getting back on topic.

I condem violence.. of any kind by any side. and i so not sugget for one second that tourist should be murdered.

i never sugested it or implied it.

and your point is well taken. however I am sure you will agree to the following.

1. if the taxi wants to charge an unlowfull price then dont go with him in the first place.

I have never seen a taxi driver who did not ask "where you want to go" and then quote a price.

2. if you did decide to go with him and he ends up wanting more money.or you feel that he is scamming you then you can refuse and

do it politely and with a smile.

if that does not work you can call the hotel receptionist or the tourist police and ask them to intermidiate. but the whole process should

be done politely.

3. most important. never get into a phisical conflict for a taxi fare on any dispute for that matter where you raise your voice, your temper, or become phisicly agressive. youcan find your self in very bad position. As such the recomendation is "dont start a fight"

this applies to any country. not just thailand.

you know as well as i do that when tempers heat and people dont think they get into a lot of trouble.. Thai and farrang. its realy easy to start a fight with someone but you never know what will be the out come.

I am aware that in some countries. the bully and agressive beahviour with threatning body language is percived as "the right to complain"

well it doe not work here. in most cases the thais will to avoid conflict and just wave off with a mai pen lai. but in some cases where the complaining person keeps raising the bar of aggression it heats up the situation. and this aggresive behaviour leads to a fight and the fight quickly escelates and when it does it is ususaly seconds away to end in terrible consequences.

with out deminising the Thai side contibution to this violcence. I have yet to see any forigner publicly admit that he was drunk and he behaved abusivly towards the Thai and that it was his fault that the fight started... and that YES he did desreve to get the beating he got because he was realy out of order. have you??

most of the tourist are very aware of how to behave in the countries where they come from and know how to avoid conflicts,,, yet in Samui the general feeling is that anything goes.

this with the false sense of supiriotiry because they are richer and from the west, along with a good dose of alcohol and they allow them selves to behave ""diferently"" and in many occasions in a very abusive manner.

so avoid conflicts.. just dont go there.

[the gent]

The problem with tourism as an industry is that it inevitably encourages a familiarity that ultimately leads to contempt. This can be expressed in many ways but to generalise it would be fair to say that the tourist represents nothing more to the host country than an economic opportunity to be exploited. To those of a more civilized and sophisticated hue the process of separating the visitor from their money can be completed with charm and a little style leading to a mutual satisfaction.

Unfortunately, as evidenced by the taxi driver's attack, sheer thuggery in Thailand can be the other side of the coin. Frustration at not achieving immediate short term gain, no matter how optimistic the expectations may have been, is often vented by a display of rude surliness or even irrational violence. Now, in truth, such behaviour could be witnessed the world over but in Thailand it seems that no incident can take place where the hapless tourist is not somehow at fault. Quite why this should be could be explained possibly by the pathological fear of losing face that permeates every level of Thai society. In any event, combining such a national characteristic with a rapacious greed probably guarantees fireworks at some point but the mistake continually made by the ingenue farang is thinking that western logic and a sense of natural justice will rescue them from the consequences.

Personally, I enjoy it all immensely not least because it is so alien although exasperation can take its toll. However, in this case one would hope that the driver gets his just desserts and is incarcerated. Slashing the hand that feeds you is very silly indeed, too silly for even the Thai to ignore.

[otton]

highdiver - According to my friend from the police. the detectives spoke with him the day after.

You mean he called them to give his version? It's interesting he didn't think of calling them right when the fact happened or when he was comfortably sleeping in his hotel room while his "savage attackers" were being given blood transfusions...

What injuries has he sustained?

highdiver - Exactly if you are stupid enough to get into a fight with a Thai you find yourself stabbed and hospitalised..

Besides physically confronting them, are you including into "getting into a fight with Thais" ARGUING (as in discussing) with them over whatever issue you may have about services, goods, prices etc?

Should we graciously put up with whatever s.hit is trown our way?

highdiver - No .. you seem to take it to extremes and that is exactly what warn people of.

you can argue as much as you want but to get into a fight with the locals is stupid and useless as you will allways loose.

Many Thais will perceive "arguing" with them as an attack and since when dealing with foreigners they know they will probably get away with it they will respond in the way the news too often show us...

Westerners used to be treated in the same way higher classes Thais would, in these occurrences. That's no more the case. Now and for the last few years the message and the example from the higher ups has been clear.

highdiver - depends where you studied thai. at home with your wife or in a proper school.

Sorry to hear your wife hasn't had the chance to get an education good enough to be able to teach you her own mother tongue but you shouldn't assume the same about others...

highdiver - Foreigner = kon taang-chat that is stranger not forigner

Foreigner = khohn farang, or chaao dtaang bpra thaeht,

NO: "kon taang-chat" means foreigner (person from another nation) and "chaao dtaang bpra thaeht" means folks from another country so they are both correct. Stranger is kon-plok-naa.

highdiver - Westerner = kon tawan-tok that means people from west, dtawang dtok means west not westerner

Westerner = farang mang khaa

And guess what "Westerner" means... person from the West.

"Farang" and all of its variations which you mentioned are colloquialisms. How often do you hear the King calling foreigners/Westerners/Caucasians "farangs"?

highdiver - If what you don't know can't hurt you, you,re practically invulnerable.

I would revise my credo if I were you... you are living a dangerous life.

[ClaudeFeller]

Highdiver wrote...

"2. if you did decide to go with him and he ends up wanting more money.or you feel that he is scamming you then you can refuse and do it politely and with a smile. if that does not work you can call the hotel receptionist or the tourist police and ask them to intermidiate. but the whole process should be done politely."

Highdiver, you are still joking with us, are you??

Good trick by cab drivers is also:

Before driving:

"You pay me 300 B"

When arriving:

"No, 300 B you and 300 B your friend"

So should I smile with Mr. NiceGuy, talk about good weather and "have many farang or not", should I ask him about his wife and his kids while we are waiting hand in hand for the mighty Tourist Police to make justice done??

Should I adore his gun ("so clean and polished!") and his knife ("you have to use it many times??")??

[Charma]

Charma

thanks for getting back on topic.

I condem violence.. of any kind by any side.....

I have yet to see any forigner publicly admit that he was drunk and he behaved abusivly towards the Thai and that it was his fault that the fight started... and that YES he did desreve to get the beating he got because he was realy out of order.

Is it me, or are these two statements incongruous?

[highdiver]

highdiver - According to my friend from the police. the detectives spoke with him the day after.

You mean he called them to give his version? It's interesting he didn't think of calling them right when the fact happened or when he was comfortably sleeping in his hotel room while his "savage attackers" were being given blood transfusions...

What injuries has he sustained?

I realy dont know... I wasagiving the other side of the story. but if it intrests you that much please go to the police and ask them.

highdiver - Exactly if you are stupid enough to get into a fight with a Thai you find yourself stabbed and hospitalised..

Besides physically confronting them, are you including into "getting into a fight with Thais" ARGUING (as in discussing) with them over whatever issue you may have about services, goods, prices etc?

Should we graciously put up with whatever s.hit is trown our way?

I was refering only to physicaly fighting.

as for Arguing as in discussion it can be done in a polite way or it can be done using abusive terms, faul language, thretning body languge, the later usualy ends up in a fight.

highdiver - No .. you seem to take it to extremes and that is exactly what warn people of.

you can argue as much as you want but to get into a fight with the locals is stupid and useless as you will allways loose.

Many Thais will perceive "arguing" with them as an attack and since when dealing with foreigners they know they will probably get away with it they will respond in the way the news too often show us...

A i said before it rely depends of your definitiaon of Arguing. you can debate politley or you can assume that you are supperior white forigner and use abusive behaviour as reality too often show us...

Westerners used to be treated in the same way higher classes Thais would, in these occurrences. That's no more the case. Now and for the last few years the message and the example from the higher ups has been clear.

highdiver - depends where you studied thai. at home with your wife or in a proper school.

Sorry to hear your wife hasn't had the chance to get an education good enough to be able to teach you her own mother tongue but you shouldn't assume the same about others...

my wife has actually a very good education, and I was refering to where the other poster got his Thai lessons.

As per your education... based on your aeguments above I guess comprehansion was not not on your silibus

highdiver - Foreigner = kon taang-chat that is stranger not forigner

Foreigner = khohn farang, or chaao dtaang bpra thaeht,

NO: "kon taang-chat" means foreigner (person from another nation) and "chaao dtaang bpra thaeht" means folks from another country so they are both correct. Stranger is kon-plok-naa.

NO it does not.. Plok Naa. is a diferent face refering to someone who is phisicaly different. may be used as an iddiom for stranger.

chaao means people not person person is na ra chohn

while kon taang-chat refers to any one from any other place chaao dtaang bpra thaeht. refers to people from another country and is the right noun for forigner.

highdiver - Westerner = kon tawan-tok that means people from west, dtawang dtok means west not westerner

Westerner = farang mang khaa

And guess what "Westerner" means... person from the West.

NO it does not ..Westerner is a term that refers to people coming from mainly from western european and north Amercian countries.

if you live in west thailand it does not make you a westerner. if somone is living in the west of bangkok it does not make them a westerner.

"Farang" and all of its variations which you mentioned are colloquialisms. How often do you hear the King calling foreigners/Westerners/Caucasians "farangs"?

the royal familly use a different dialect. and since most of the media and even the academic world in thailand use those "colloquialisms" i can assume that they are infact used in place.

please do join us on the Thai lingo forum if you feel you need to discuss this further.

highdiver - If what you don't know can't hurt you, you,re practically invulnerable.

I would revise my credo if I were you... you are living a dangerous life.

on the contrary dear I live a very peacfull life and in the thai tradition I mind my own business. i dont go provoking other people into fights. debate yes, disagree yes, violence NO.

[naka]

To get back on topic -

Highdiver, perhaps you could clarify your position by simply stating that it is NOT an acceptable situation for tourists who refuse to pay an exhorbitant and unlawful taxi fare, to be stabbed for their trouble (even if one were to accept that they "gave a bit of lip" in the process). I do understand your general desire to balance things out a bit and put over a "thai" point of view, but perhaps there are more deserving cases than this one. Most Thai people I know would not seek to justify this guys actions. By all means advise people against picking arguments with unknown and unpredictable locals, but please don't make it sound like an excuse for attempted murder.

Some common sense at last.

As for doing a runner ... I always wonder if the fear of being psss tested

has anything to do with it.

Naka.

Edited August 15, 2007 by naka

[highdiver]

Charma

thanks for getting back on topic.

I condem violence.. of any kind by any side.....

I have yet to see any forigner publicly admit that he was drunk and he behaved abusivly towards the Thai and that it was his fault that the fight started... and that YES he did desreve to get the beating he got because he was realy out of order.

Is it me, or are these two statements incongruous?

its probebly you

while the first refers to me personally condeming violence, the later refers to taking repsosibily for results originating from your actions.

in most case of violence one side takes a violent intitative because the belive they can come out with the upper hand. however...

if the initating side is then faced with a counterpart that retaliates stronger then expected you will never here the first initiator admiting that his violent initiative was wrong.

or in simple terms. 2 big guys versus 1 small guy get into a fight assuming that because they are 2 they can have the upper hand. the other turns up with a knife and slashes them both. do you think that the 2 will admit for initiating the violence? do you think they will admit of wrong? or will they play the incocent game of "i dont know why he attacked me... i did not do nothing"

[otton]

I realy dont know...

Yes, that's exactly the impression you have given...

As per your education... based on your aeguments above I guess comprehansion was not not on your silibus

Was spelling on yours?

NO it does not.. Plok Naa. is a diferent face refering to someone who is phisicaly different. may be used as an iddiom for stranger.

chaao means people not person person is na ra chohn

You may think you can speak Thai, but you can't...

And you can't read English either: I translated your chaao with "folks" (i.e. "people") NOT with "person". "Person" was the translation I gave of my "kon" which was to be used instead of "chaao" since we were talking about the translation of "Westerner" not "the Westerners" so you were wrong even on this "little" detail...

NO it does not ..Westerner is a term that refers to people coming from mainly from western european and north Amercian countries.

if you live in west thailand it does not make you a westerner. if somone is living in the west of bangkok it does not make them a westerner.

It's not important where you live, Westerners are, by extension, also Australians and New Zealanders! And this is true everywhere.

the royal familly use a different dialect.

You haven't answered. Do tell how He call foreigners and Westerners in His "dialect"...

and since most of the media and even the academic world in thailand use those "colloquialisms" i can assume that they are infact used in place.

If we in the West weren't so preoccupied by our PCness and weren't restrained by our anti-discrimination laws (both of which practically non-existent in Thailand) you would hear a lot more "colloquialisms" in our media and academic world too...

Whenever actual use of a less than correct "colloquialism" for an ethnic minority actually happens in the West, you hear about it in the news. When it happens in Thailand, you have "farangs" posting on Thaivisa that they heard that really we are "farangs" and not chao-tang-chat or chao-tawan-tok...

[sbk]

Well, this has gone so far off course as to be moot. Unless there is further news about the assault and the arrest of the taxi driver I see no reason to continue what has become a thread of personal attacks against one poster.

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