Enlightenment

[DeDanan]

Hi All,

Enlightenment, does anyone know a person who has attained this state?

Have a Happy…

DeDanan

[Dancali]

Assuming there is a state of "enlightenment" to obtain, I'm not sure you could really know they were enlightened. Like, what does an enlightened lizard look and act like? I think just about the same as a normal lizard.

And I think the enlightened one would know that there really is nothing to be enlightened about so he too wouldn't claim to be in a special state.

There are people who can take LSD and be completely out of their minds, but still act outwardly normal so others would have no idea what's going on in the guy's head.

[camerata]

There are people who can take LSD and be completely out of their minds, but still act outwardly normal so others would have no idea what's going on in the guy's head.

Apart from his hugely dilated pupils, of course...

[andyinkat]

The most concise answer I can give to this question is, 'Yes, I believe I have.'

However the question does beg the bigger one which is 'what is enlightenment?' That's been discussed in another thread I think, and I'm going to short-circuit matters by not entering into that debate here. [postscript - oh, I think I did!]

So, I wrote that I believe I have. I chose my words carefully - my view is that there is no objective answer to the question. It's not like 'have you met a millionaire'. Rational thinking starts with 'the world out there' and assumes certain objective truths. Buddhism starts with 'the world in here' and posits what you perceive is governed by the state of your mind. Thus, if your mind is in a certain state you will see enlightenment in a person whereas the next person won't see it.

My mind is not very spiritualy developed, so from my somewhat ignorant perspective I can say that certain individuals I have met have had a presence that led me to see them as enlightened. These individuals include His Holiness the Dalai Lama and my teacher who without ever telling me to do anything has inspired me let go of all possessions and attachments and lead a monastic-like life in the cause of the Dharma. There have been others I have met but interestingly amongst the many highly-regarded western teachers and practitioners of the Dharma I have not yet met one who has that certain ineffable 'thing' that those who have been born into countless generations of Buddhist culture have.

Tibetan Buddhism - in which I have been practising for many years - advocates starting not from where you're at, but from the goal. One of my favourite nuns summed it up as 'fake it 'til you make it'! The goal is to see all places as the Pure Land, all sounds as mantra and all beings as fully enlightened Buddhas. The practices are aimed at actualizing those mental states. Thus all beings are enlightened. That seeming pain-in-the-arse who constantly frustrates and angers you is a buddha manifesting in order to give you the opportunity to practice the virtue of patience. The rank blocked Asian toilet is as pure an environment as the most fabulous wat. That techno music pumping out of the disco is Om Mani Padme Hung.

When your mind is pure you will experience this; I suppose enlightened individuals do see reality this way constantly. If your mind is like mine, impure, you have to work at it - 'fake it' until slowly, bit by bit, experiencing reality in this way begins to sink in. Theravada, Zen and other schools of Buddhism use different vocabulary but I think in essence all are saying much the same thing. Namely, if you see everything as perfect just as it is in its own ever-changing nature, you are enlightened. However at the same time you recognise that other beings do not have this insight and thus experience suffering so you are moved by their plight to remove the barriers to their happiness.

One important proviso here: if anyone ever claims 'I am enlightened' then in a sense that's proof enough that they're not! It's making not just an egotistical but an objective claim that demonstrates ignorance of the Dharma. There is a complex dynamic between objective reality and subjective perception that is being glossed over here. This does however raise a very delicate tension in Buddhism however: we are deluded individuals and to move forward into wisdom we need a teacher or teachers who can inspire, motivate and guide us. We thus need to put our faith in such a person. Westerners often overlook the importance of faith in Buddhism. But at the same time we must not take leave of our critical senses - i.e. there is no place for 'blind faith'. But that's a topic for another time!

[rod_kalashnikov]

 

[sabaijai]

Enlightenment is mentioned rarely in the Tripitaka, in fact as far as I know it's explained in only two sutras, the Satipatthana and the Gilana, and then only to list the seven factors that must be present for enlightenment. Faking it isn't one of them ...

Nowhere in the Tipitaka, as far as I know, does the Buddha or any of the commentators talk about 'enlightened beings', except in the cases of Buddha(s).

Enlightenment (bhojjhanga in Pali), from these seven-factor descriptions, appears to be a momentary state which lasts only as long as a skillful or karmically wholesome thought moment (kusalacitta) is present. Of course all mental states are momentary so this is only logical, from a Buddhist perspective.

I think some Westerners, perhaps many Asians, too, confuse enlightenment with nirvana? Nirvana, being unconditioned, isn't momentary.

[sabaijai]

Factors of Enlightenment

(Maha Kassapa Thera Bojjhanga [1])

Thus have I heard:

On one occasion the Blessed One was living near Rajagaha, in the bamboo grove, in the Squirrels' feeding ground. At that time the Venerable Maha Kassapa who was living in the Pipphali Cave, was afflicted with a disease, was suffering therefrom, and was gravely ill.

Then the Blessed One arising from his solitude at eventide visited the Venerable Maha Kassapa and sat down on a seat made ready (for him). Thus seated the Blessed One spoke to the Venerable Maha Kassapa:

"Well Kassapa, how is it with you? Are you bearing up, are you enduring (your suffering)? Do your pains decrease or increase? Are there signs of your pains decreasing and not of increasing?"

"No, Ven. Sir, I am not bearing up, I am not enduring, the pain is very great. There is a sign not of pains decreasing but of their increasing."

"Kassapa, these seven factors of enlightenment are well expounded by me and are cultivated and fully developed by me. They conduce to perfect understanding, to full realization (of the four Noble Truths) and to Nibbana. What are the seven?

i. "Mindfulness, the factor of enlightenment, Kassapa, is well expounded by me, and is cultivated and fully developed by me. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

ii. "Investigation of the Dhamma, the factor of enlightenment, Kassapa, is well expounded by me, and is cultivated and fully developed by me. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

iii. "Persevering effort, the factor of enlightenment, Kassapa, is well expounded by me and is cultivated and fully developed by me. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

iv. "Rapture, the factor of enlightenment, Kassapa, is well expounded by me, and is cultivated and fully developed by me. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

v. "Calm, the factor of enlightenment, Kassapa, is well expounded by me, and is cultivated and fully developed by me. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

vi. "Concentration, the factor of enlightenment, Kassapa, is well expounded by me, and is cultivated and fully developed by me. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

vii. "Equanimity, the factor of enlightenment, Kassapa, is well expounded by me, and is cultivated and fully developed by me. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

"These seven factors of enlightenment, Kassapa, are well expounded by me and are cultivated and fully developed by me. They conduce to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana."

"Most assuredly, O Blessed One, they are factor of enlightenment. Most assuredly, O Welcome Being (Sugata), they are factors of enlightenment."

Thus said the Buddha, and the Venerable Maha Kassapa glad at heart approved the utterances of the Buddha. Thereupon the Venerable Kassapa recovered from that affliction, and that affliction, of the Venerable Kassapa disappeared.

book of protection

[strawberry]

Enlightenment,

I think that is probably the greatest bar to good meditation that I know of. I started to try and meditate 50 years ago, but couldn't still the mind. My first book on the subject was was a book called The Third Eye by a grocer from the south of England.

I was determined to become enlightened and have all you lesser mortals sit at my feet whilst I threw gems of wisdom at you. (Boring)

I've been to meditation retreats read heaps of books on the subject over many years. Went to INdia some years back and the greatest thing I got out of it was when I got back here and whilst Meditating /thinking on the subject i realised that anything I might believe at any time was not necessarily the truth. It was after that ,that I stopped trying to get something spiritual out of meditation. I meditate evry day and most times twice. I do so only to 1. learn to concentrate better and 2. to rest my mind. give myself a break from the every day problems in my family life. Since I have adopted that attitude my meditation has improved out a site. In all the years that I have been involved in meditation I don't know if I have ever come across anyone who is enlightened. I have met people who wanted me to believe they were,usually people who have the need to control syndrome.

Regards Serene Joe

[Darknight]

I feel it's not possible for non-enlightened people to recognize an enlightened one.

They could talk to an enlightened master for hours but still not realise it.

"Normal" people are always bound by their own barriers of experience and their own mind set.

If you try to stretch that mindset they will react in Disbelief, argumentation, up to running away or blocking out what they hear.

The mind and the ego is very carefull to protect itself from shock or to large experiances especially on a spiritual level. Sometimes people will experiance things that will shock them ( a death or out of body experiance for example,) but then still this will only be the beginning of a journey not an immediate knowledge.

You attract through creation the masters you need at times .

You will think that they were so far ahead, only to realise a few years later that you are at the same level now or even further . Old masters will become pupils, New masters will appear. New experiences will open you further or maybe not. It all depends on your own progress and experiance.

For the master it is impossible to explain enlightenment to his pupils let alone to lay people. He can not transfer this knowledge (experiance, or even NO-knowledge). He can only radiate it through his being and hope that his pupils are picking it up and are open for it.

He will know your state of being but you can never comprehend or even fully see his.

He can only hint some things to you in a very disguised way so you won't block them out.

He will actually have to mirror your consiousness, religious experience and character to be able to drop a litlle hidden seed in you. He would rely on creation for the seed to blossom.

If it does he will see it, and if it fully grows you will see him as wel.

So when are you enlightened ?

If you find no more masters ?? maybe your just blocking them out?

If you have a lot of students ?? maybe you are just teaching easy things.

if you have your own idea?? maybe you just stubborn and closed to "reality"?

If you believe only what you read in a book?? maybe you are just blind to the world outside the book??

It is actually not important in my view.

Creation (universe, life ect) is actually what it needs to be , you will see what you need to see, you will attract who you need to attract......

you just have to learn the current lesson thaught, that's all. nothing more

[Darknight]

That techno music pumping out of the disco is Om Mani Padme Hung.

By the way, Techno is very related to chanting sutra's.

They both carry trance inducing ritme repeats which can override you thinking.

I actually used to meditate on house music some years back as they carry some real "universal" sounds.

[andyinkat]

Darknight,

Yes, fully agree with all that. As I wrote, because of our ignorance we cannot KNOW when/if we meet an enlightened being, hence the need for faith.

And I agree with DK and Strawberry that Westerners get far too obsessed with the notion of enlightenment - on one level it certainly doesn't matter. My motivation in my meditation and daily life is never 'enlightenment', but I can say from extensive experience that if you want to seek out a real teacher if possible it is far better to put your trust in one who is enlightened rather than one who is not.

Sabaijai - you are quite right in pointing out that Lord Buddha (quite deliberately in my view) rarely spelt out exactly what enlightenment is. However I'm not sure I'd want to draw a sharp line between enlightenment and nibbana in the Theravadan tradition; it becomes quite different in Mahayana. The momentary experience you refer to I think is what Zen emphasises with the concept of satori, and Theravadan teachers often refer to it with phrases such as 'a glimpse of enlightenment'. I think that when all those moments join up so that every momentary dharma is an enlightened dharma that is full enlightenment.

Whereas the Tipitika (or at least the Suttapitaka - I think the Abhidhamma is different) is cagey about spelling out too 'legalistically' what enlightenment is, there are many many examples of enlightened people. They are the arhats/arahats/arahants. There are two whole books in the Tipitaka dedicated to the songs/poems of such people describing poetically and thus subjectively and impressionistically what it is to be enlightened -the Theragatha and Therigatha. The latter - 'Songs of Enlightened Women' is the only text composed by women that appears in the canon of any major religion in the world.

All schools of Buddhism accept the idea of the cycle of history whereby when a Buddha appears to 'Turn the Wheel of the Dharma' the Earth enters into a 'golden age' where it is relatively easy to understand the Dharma and attain enlightenment, but that as time goes on the Dharma becomes more difficult to understand or corrupted and spiritual progress becomes harder and harder. When the Dharma becomes completely lost a new Buddha (next one being Maitreya, or Mettaya in Pali) will manifest. Currently we are in the Kali Yuga or 'dark age' where pure Dharma is difficult to find, difficult to practice and difficult to reach the goal. Personally I'd say that without having to accept the whole cosmological system that pretty much accords with my assessment of the world today!

Most schools of Buddhism and most emphatically Theravada draw the conclusion that therefore in the present age it is very very difficult to attain enlightenment. I think that if you asked knowledgeable and experienced monks in Thailand this question, most would answer (beyond the perfectly acceptable and accurate 'don't know', 'who can say', doesn't matter' etc.) that a very small number (probably in single figures) of the greatest masters who have passed away in the last century were enlightened. Mahayana (Zen and Tibetan forms being the major ones in the West) would have a different take but that would turn this post into an essay!

[camerata]

When the Dharma becomes completely lost a new Buddha (next one being Maitreya, or Mettaya in Pali) will manifest. Currently we are in the Kali Yuga or 'dark age' where pure Dharma is difficult to find, difficult to practice and difficult to reach the goal. Personally I'd say that without having to accept the whole cosmological system that pretty much accords with my assessment of the world today!

Do you know how the various ages of Buddhism were formulated and where the idea originated? In Japan's Heian period it was believed there were three ages: the True Law, the Reflected Law and the Latter Days of the Law. The Latter Days were believed to begin in 1052, and contemporary literature was full of references to "these degenerate days," as the aristocracy lost power to the warrior class and smallpox ravaged Kyoto.

Supposedly the idea originated in the Sutra of the Great Assembly.

[strawberry]

When I came to Thailand I called myself a Buddhist, now I don't.

When I take a look at all these religions, mainly christianity buddhism hinduism and islam. They all seem to be designed to prop up a monk/priest cult and they all seem to be controled by people with the ''need to control syndrome''. So coming to that I find it hard to accept this idea of enlightenment.

about 18 years ago I spent a couple of weeks in an ashram back in good old Aus. This ashram was run by a hindu group called itself satyananda and was for a while very popular, that is until the ''need to control syndrome pulled it apart''.

In their library was many books on religions from all over the world. I tried to talk to the folks there about enlightenment god ,higher Powers etc. They refused to discuss any of these subjects and when I asked why they told me we will teach you about yoga technics and meditation and you will find your own way. That is me now.

I've spent my life going through heaps of different spiritual concepts looking for enlightenment/God that its been a bit like some of the pub crawls I;ve been on earlier in my life. Of each spiritual concept I've engaged in I've entered into it fully believing that this is it. Finally found the way. Only to leave it sometime later feeling a bit let down. But at the same time walkinfg away with a little something to take to the next concept. Some of them have given me a real hi for a while.

I feel more earthed now and more at ease with myself not being presured into something that I'm not understanding. Thats how its been for me and the truth is that all the different concepts that I have looked at I would n't have missed any of them and what ever you folks are into I pray you enjoy it as much as I have.

Its been great for me to have able to write this many thanks'

PEACE LOVE HAPPINESS AND BROWN RICE Joe Strawberry

[andyinkat]

Camerata,

As a scholar I would say the cycle of history concept was 'inherited' from the pre-Buddhism proto-Hindu background; it is that ancient.

Each school of Buddhism and in particular many Mahayana sutras would reinterpret the vague idea in their own way and some sutras would add up a few mystical figures to arrive at a date, rather like some Christian millennial cults. Indeed that weird Japanese quasi-Buddhist cult that killed peole in Tokyo with Sarin I believe thought that the end of the last age was imminent. Most 'mainstream' Buddhist schools (certainly the Tibetan ones; I think some Japanese ones are different) don't put a precise date on it but imply we are a good few thousand years from the end of this aeon.

Joe,

I've been a student and seeker all my life. My profession was a religious philosopher and teacher, so I know where you're coming from. But can I say this - your description of your search and disillusionment reads remarkably like my search for the right woman! I've always meant well but boy have I experienced some disasters, leaving me an emotional wreck. I haven't given up on women; I haven't turned into a misogynist - I just haven't found the right one yet.

And so it is with your experience with religion - you haven't found the right teacher yet. Now, if I did turn into a misogynist and view all women with supreme suspicion I would no longer be open to seeing the 'right woman' when she does come into my life. So too, if you form a mental blockage about all religion or institutional religion, you too will not be open to recognise a true teacher when you meet him.

My formative experience was a year living in a Buddhist monastery. Amongst the personel there were all sorts, some right jerks included. But the rinpoche was truly inspiring - the one I gradualy came to view as enlightened. Maybe I was lucky, or maybe I made my own luck by not allowing my experience of a long line of disappointing teachers of various religions to close my mind.

It is important you don't get or feel pressurised, but at the same time I think it is good to keep seeking until you find. How long the search takes is not important; as you recognise the search in itself is valuable ('the journey is the goal') - but once you find the right teacher for you, you'll know - if you're open

[DeDanan]

I think some Westerners, perhaps many Asians, too, confuse enlightenment with nirvana? Nirvana, being unconditioned, isn't momentary.

Sabaijai, as always please excuse my ignorance but it was my understanding that to “enter” Nirvana one had to become “Enlightened”

appears to be a momentary state which lasts only as long as a skillful or karmically wholesome thought moment (kusalacitta) is present. Of course all mental states are momentary so this is only logical, from a Buddhist perspective.

Maybe momentary in the mental state of enlightenment as one can be mentally intoxicated.

However, what insights one gains while enlightened is surely not momentary. After we realise the world is not flat but round, we can not deny this knowledge and go back to thinking the world is flat!

Struggling to understand…

DeDanan

[strawberry]

Andyinkat,

friend I think you are right. I never did find a teacher, and now its too late as I've taken on a family here in Thailand and thats a commitment that I intend to keep. At almost 70 yo I have a 7 yo daughter and that takes up much of my time. believe me when I say I'm not complaining as this is something that gives great joy.

When I was in India I bought many books on spiritual things and one of those books is called The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. From this book I got the impression that we (the soul) are develope or come about at different times. That is some earlier and some later some souls more developed that others. I'm no intellectual scholar so its difficult for me to put things into words. (Please note).

One of the things that grab

bed me was that it said life comes from the foam out of the sea. (The original of this book is said to be written about 2500 years ago). I had never heard of this idea before. I thought OK I'll just store in the back of my head until I find out more. The following Sunday in the Bangkok Post suppliment was a story about a Scottish scientist working out of a University in the USA. Life created from foam was what he was working on and there is some place on the east coast of the USA that this is happening and that life is continuing to be created. Ican't remember the name of this science but I do remember that the article said there were only 5 scientists studying this.

Read a fair few books on saints and sages and was always interested in the extremes these people went to to gain enlightenment.

all the people I have known who spend much time trying to gain some kind of higher spiritual plain but discussing this with them a couple of years down the track they admitted they were no where.

What I'm getting at here is that if there is a higher spiritual plane to be achieved and some souls are more advanced than others then it would be nigh on impossible for some of us to achieve that higher plane and we have to live another 100 life times to achieve it.

When I observe the human race the idea that there are souls of different maturity this seems to explain the mess the world is in. Why do some people feel very comfortable in christianity ond others seek a deeper meaning to life and why do some people not want to know about anything spiritual.

Thankyou for taking time out to comment on my mail.

Regards Joe

[sabaijai]

appears to be a momentary state which lasts only as long as a skillful or karmically wholesome thought moment (kusalacitta) is present. Of course all mental states are momentary so this is only logical, from a Buddhist perspective.

Maybe momentary in the mental state of enlightenment as one can be mentally intoxicated.

However, what insights one gains while enlightened is surely not momentary. After we realise the world is not flat but round, we can not deny this knowledge and go back to thinking the world is flat!

DeDanan - It all comes down to what you mean by 'enlightenment'. The Tipitaka makes a distinction between 'enlightened' and 'fully enlightened' but most mentions -- if not all, I'm no Tipitaka expert despite years of study! -- are not fully explained in the suttas.

From what I've read, I take most mentions of 'enlightenment' to refer to the experience of stream entry (sotapanna). Many people in our time have attained stream entry, and I would say that 've met a few such people myself.

However at stream entry, or enlightenment, one is still far away from nirvana or, if you prefer, full enlightenment.

Here's an explanation of stream entry.

This enlightenment experience, known as stream entry (sotapatti), is the first of four progressive stages of Awakening, each of which entails the irreversible shedding or weakening of some of the fetters (samyojana), the manifestations of ignorance that bind a person to the cycle of birth and death. Stream entry marks an unprecedented and radical turning point both in the practitioner's current life and in the entirety of his or her long journey in samsara. For it is at this point that any lingering doubts about the truth of the Buddha's teachings fall away; it is at this point that any belief in the purifying efficacy of rites and rituals evaporates; and it is at this point that the long-cherished notion of an abiding personal "self" disappears. The stream-enterer is said to be assured of no more than seven future rebirths (all of them favorable) before eventually attaining full Awakening. But full Awakening is still a long way off. As the practitioner presses on with diligence, he or she passes through two more significant landmarks: once-returning (sakadagati), which is accompanied by the weakening of the fetters of sensual desire and ill-will, and non-returning (agati), in which these two fetters are uprooted altogether. The final stage of Awakening -- arahatta -- occurs when even the most refined and subtle levels of craving and conceit are extinguished, once and for all. At this point the practitioner -- now an arahant, or "worthy one" -- has finally arrived at the end-point of the Buddha's teaching.

As for your 'world isn't flat' analogy, it's one thing to glimpse the way that nama/rupa or mind/form interact to produce illusion of self/reality, and quite another for the citta - mind-moments - to attain the consistently kusala (skilful/wholesome) flow necessary for passing through the higher stages. Abhidhamma, the book of the Tipitaka that concerns itself with the fine details of the work of Buddhism, is the place to find out more about how the citta function ...

Is that glimpse stream entry? Well that would be another way to re-phrase the original question. And it's a whole other debate with lots of sticky issues of its own.

Or thus I've heard ...

Here's a more detailed description of stream entry that alludes to enlightenment, along with the seven associated factors mentioned in an earlier post, demonstrating that enlightenment is only the first stage. This translation uses 'awakening' but the original Pali is the same as that otherwise translated as 'enlightenment' elsewhere.

stream entry

Edited July 24, 2004 by sabaijai

[andyinkat]

What I'm getting at here is that if there is a higher spiritual plane to be achieved and some souls are more advanced than others then it would be nigh on impossible for some of us to achieve that higher plane and we have to live another 100 life times to achieve it.

When I observe the human race the idea that there are souls of different maturity this seems to explain the mess the world is in. Why do some people feel very comfortable in christianity ond others seek a deeper meaning to life and why do some people not want to know about anything spiritual.

Spot on Joe!

I feel that Western society has grown to seriously misunderstand the term 'democracy' - indeed if you listen to the way Bush uses his favourite buzzwords 'freedom & democracy' you'd think they have no meaning left at all! 'Democracy' should involve equal right, equality of opportunity, but it's a nonsense to think we are all 'equal'. We are not all born with equal abilities, intelligence and as you recognise, spiritual aptitude.

The concept of karma and rebirth recognises that at birth we are 'dealt a hand' dependent on our previous deeds. Some of us might have earned a hand with a full house, some a pair of twos, others a nine-high. now, in this life, it's up to us to make that hand a winner.

But there's no need to be depressed that the chances of hitting 'enlightenment' in this lifetime are slim; forget the "I want it all and i want it now!" mentality; some of the most esteemed teachers I've met have said that if they improve their 'karmic account' by 2% in this life they'll be very satisfied. As long as you're heading in the right direction your next rebirth will be an improvement. No need to worry about the final goal.

In your case loving your family and looking out for others less fortunate will create the foundations for a more favourable rebirth in which your chances of meeting the right teacher are increased.

[strawberry]

Hi Andyinkat,

I'm not so dissallusioned by my experiences but rather view them as a learning experience. Of course at times I've felt let down but given time I'm able to move on and recognise the experiences as just that, a learning experience.

I completely accept that gaining a higher spiritual state in this lifetime is not going to happen and to be truthful I'm really enjoying my fathering, and wouldn't want to change that for something that I don't really know exists.

to me it has become a theory that seems to make some sense and I agree that perhaps my living an honest life now will make some difference in my next life.

My Dad died of cancer some years back and just before he died he said that he didn't believe in anything and this was the end for him. I don't know if this is true but quite frankly it doesn't make sense to me. Reincarnation seems to make sense. but just because it makes sense doesnot mean that I'm correct.. If when I die and I get to heaven and Jesus is waiting for me, with open arms, I will become a Christian very quickly. But in the meantime I'll remain something of a Buddhists. Allowing myself to know that anything that I might believe at any given time is not neseccarily the truth.

Andyinkat many thanks

Regards Joe

[Darknight]

But there's no need to be depressed that the chances of hitting 'enlightenment' in this lifetime are slim; forget the "I want it all and i want it now!" mentality; some of the most esteemed teachers I've met have said that if they improve their 'karmic account' by 2% in this life they'll be very satisfied. As long as you're heading in the right direction your next rebirth will be an improvement. No need to worry about the final goal.

Mind you that the improvement doesn't mean you will have a more easy or more wealthy life. Maybe it will even suck more then your current one as you will be required to learn even harder lessons .

The idea of i'll be good in this life and become a king in the next is complete <deleted>.

In the last 25 years i had to cath up on so much stuff i feel if i had to learn more then a person will learn in a lifetime.

So is that because i had a good or bad reincarnation ? , .....mmmmm

[ghengis]

I have never asked someone 'hey are you enlightened'. However, those people I have experienced who I assume to be enlighened do have different characteristics from other people - and this is not what they say.

Everyone has an aura - a kind of energy field around the body. This has various levels, and many people (including myself) can see colours, and sense the energy in the aura around other people. If you are sensitive to it, standing next to an enlightened person is a bit like being plugged into mains electricity.

[Darknight]

I have never asked someone 'hey are you enlightened'. However, those people I have experienced who I assume to be enlighened do have different characteristics from other people - and this is not what they say.

Everyone has an aura - a kind of energy field around the body. This has various levels, and many people (including myself) can see colours, and sense the energy in the aura around other people. If you are sensitive to it, standing next to an enlightened person is a bit like being plugged into mains electricity.

Mmmm very true Ghengis,

You grasped the beginning of Energy theory....

It not only happens that you will feel energized , the higher level person( enlightend but not neccesary) will start to feel drained after a while.

It's a natural energy exchange that happens between everybody constantly. Just have a look at some groups in a pub for a while and you can see how moods are reflected and changed by newcomers.

It's also the main principal behind mass persuasion (football holigans, Hitler, preachings, even music concerts). If you can find somebody to steer everybody's energy in the same direction many bystanders will feel this and join in. This can be done in a good or bad sense of course.

It is also the main reason why monks tend to shy away from lay people and lock them selves in temples or convents. to expand your energy levels to be able to reach enlightenment you need to be very private so others can not drain you.

Only when you have learned to pass through this energy you can remain in a crowd and be not affected.

Although i not see aura's (i have done before on some occasions) , i feel it.

I mostly use it to "Feel" the inner motivation of others. It's not something i can really explain but it helps me mostly in determining the liars from the honest people . It doesn't help in telling futures for people before somebody wants to ridicule this

Probably why i have such a disgust of "Saving Face" stuff as well

[camerata]

But can I say this - your description of your search and disillusionment reads remarkably like my search for the right woman! I've always meant well but boy have I experienced some disasters, leaving me an emotional wreck. I haven't given up on women; I haven't turned into a misogynist - I just haven't found the right one yet.

How long the search takes is not important; as you recognise the search in itself is valuable ('the journey is the goal') - but once you find the right teacher for you, you'll know - if you're open

That's a good analogy. You need to be open, but not so eager as to make bad decisions. I spent 30 years not actively searching for the "right woman," but open to all possibilities. When she finally popped up, there was no doubt in my mind at all. As with enlightenment, you gotta have faith and you gotta have patience...

[bankei]

Hi There.

I heard last year or so, Acharn Maha Bua virtually claimed that he was an 'Arahat' ie enlightened. I cannot read Thai, but beleive this caused some uproar over there in Thailand. Prior to this I had a great respect for Acharn Maha Bua, but I don't know what to make of this one. Did anyone follow this in the Thai media, and if so, waht was the general consensus on the matter?

Bankei

[sabaijai]

Hi There.

I heard last year or so, Acharn Maha Bua virtually claimed that he was an 'Arahat' ie enlightened. I cannot read Thai, but beleive this caused some uproar over there in Thailand. Prior to this I had a great respect for Acharn Maha Bua, but I don't know what to make of this one. Did anyone follow this in the Thai media, and if so, waht was the general consensus on the matter?

Bankei

If you do a Web search, you'll find a few articles, in English, on this topic, including an address (translated into English) where Luang Ta Maha Bua responds to criticisms that he mentioned his arahantship.

I don't know what to make of it myself, being too far away from arahantship to draw any conclusions .

[travartz]

there is a good saying:

the man who searches for enlightenment (or teachers who are enlightened) is like the fisherman who fishes for minnows, never knowing he's standing on a whale.

the search and the whole mysteriousness of 'enlightenment' is what keeps people from experiencing it in any real sense. most people in life are always looking for something, be it physical comfort, emotional comfort, security, pleasure from the senses, or whatever else... but enlightenment is simply knowing when enough is enough, ending the search and being ok with life as it is in every moment that it is.

attaining this state takes a lot of effort and a constant, sincere vigilance over the selfishness of one's thoughts... when i get hungry i want to eat, when i am cold i want to be warm, when i want to have sex i want to go to rachada, etc... : ) meditation helps us see all of these different thoughts clearly so that first we can stop acting on all thoughts, thus the actual thoughts and the whole thinking process loses power over our lives... the more you practice meditation, and the more sincere you are about letting go of the self, the easier it is to release the thinking process... then enlightenment comes naturally....

searching for it will never work because it is the self that searches... the self says i want to be clear headed, i want to have a lot of wisdom, i want to relieve the stress in my life and so on... more and more want....

i think most farang put enlightenment out of reach because of all the biblical baggage... it's really sad in the end because it's really not that difficult to attain. not to say that i am there (or even close), but it's definitely attainable with practice and persistance.

[IMA_FARANG]

Hi All,

Enlightenment, does anyone know a person who has attained this state?

Have a Happy…

DeDanan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do you presume that you are not elightened already?

Perhaps it is only your self-delusion that makes you believe you are not enlightened?

In the Heart of all things,

In whatever has Reality,

In this dwells the Lord,

Master of the Universe.

(not Buddhist, but from an Indian source.)

So ask yourself; if at your heart there is the Lord, why are you not enlightened?

Perhaps, your perception is in error?

When a person gains enlightenment, he/she has gained nothing that was not his or her nature all along.

A more conventional answer: I once knew a Buddhist nun in Vietnam who the locals believed was an enlightend person. She seemed to glow from within.

[cdnvic]

If I have no memory of a past life, and I do not know anybody else who has,... how would I/we know if we were good, bad or indifferent (assuming there are such things as good, bad or indifferent) in a past life. If we do not know, how could we possibly 'improve'?

To believe in an 'after life' requires 'faith' which I do not have. I am only interested in Truth. By Truth, I mean something that I can find absolutely no argument with.

I'm kinda with Ravisher on this one. I think that "re-birth" is taken too literally, and the reality is more akin to repeating past habits (good or bad) than actually coming back in a different life. That I think is a holdover from the Hindu/Brahman beliefs, and if you look at Zen school such thoughts are nearly completely disposed with as Zen is more to do with knowing than believing.

It would make sense that someone who betters his thought and actions is bound to raise the bar higher with every improvement so that if you were to look at them a decade onward, you would notice a marked evolution in their thought and behaviour. This could be interpreted as a rebirth of sorts, and can be judged on a more logical level than looking at a dung beetle and assuming that it was once a very nasty person.

cv

[SEAtramp]

Enlightenment, does anyone know a person who has attained this state?

Jake from the Blues Brothers.